From the Baltic to the Balkans: Putin is testing European leaders

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Brussels Playbook Podcast
Episode: From the Baltic to the Balkans: Putin is testing European leaders
Date: May 22, 2026
Host: Sarah Wheaton (POLITICO), with Anne McElvoy
Guests: Jana Kucella (Permanent Secretary, Ministry of Defence, Finland), Ana Brnabić (Speaker of the National Assembly of Serbia, former Prime Minister)

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Episode Overview

This special “Weekender” episode comes from the GLOBSEC Forum in Prague and dives deep into the most pressing security questions facing Europe’s leaders, as Russia’s actions continue to reverberate across the continent. The discussion moves from the Baltic to the Balkans, with expert insights on NATO’s evolving posture, US-EU relations, Ukraine’s role in European security, and the complex dance between Serbia, the EU, and Russia.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transatlantic Trade & Security Jitters

[00:30] - [03:04]

• US-EU Trade Deal with Caveats: The latest trade pact is moving ahead, but with major “escape hatches” for Europe to protect itself if the US changes course, underscoring ongoing mistrust.
• NATO Alarmed by Drone Incursions: Drone incidents over NATO Baltic states (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) triggered political turmoil—some drones, off-course due to Russian jamming, were Ukrainian. Latvia’s government even saw a resignation over the crisis.
• Core Question for Europe: What does security mean when trade, fighter jets, drones, and unpredictable US politics are all in play?

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2. Finland’s Perspective: Jana Kucella

[03:04] - [17:45]

Supporting Ukraine: Realities & Reciprocal Dependence

Key Segment [04:32 - 09:01]

• “We heard this many times over...the war may be winding down and we are seeing chances for peace. But then the war goes on...”
  (Jana Kucella, 04:32)
• Finland has given over €4 billion in aid to Ukraine since 2022.
• Shift in Mindset: Not just Ukraine depending on the West, but Europe depending on Ukraine as they now have the continent's strongest military and innovation prowess.
  • “We have so much to learn and gain from working with our Ukrainian colleagues.”
    (Jana Kucella, 05:42)

Drone Escalation on NATO’s Eastern Flank

Key Segment [07:02 - 08:22]

• Drones being forced off-course into Nordic/Baltic airspace mostly due to Russian electronic warfare.
• Finland’s stance: Non-tolerance of airspace violations, but context matters; Ukraine is innovating at scale under pressure.
  • “Finland doesn't like the idea of having drones with explosives...heading to your direction...but we of course fully understand and recognize why this is taking place.”
    (Jana Kucella, 07:02)
  • “We...are really interested in the Ukrainian knowhow and their technologies in both using drones and then counter drones.”
    (Jana Kucella, 08:17)

NATO Dynamics & US Troop Reductions in Europe

Key Segments [10:15 - 14:56]

• Recent withdrawals of US troops from Germany and canceled deployments to Poland have rattled confidence but are seen by Finland as expected.
• US still committed but wants Europe to step up: Finland ready to take more responsibility.
  • “The more important issue is that the United States remains committed to the alliance, and that is the case...but they expect Europeans to do more.”
    (Jana Kucella, 10:52)
  • “Europe's defense does not depend on 5,000 forces here or 10,000 there. You are right to say that Europe would need much more forces than we have...But what I focus more [on] is the key capabilities...and that takes a lot from all of us.”
    (Jana Kucella, 13:47)

Sanctions and Sustaining Pressure on Russia

Key Segment [15:48 - 16:22]

• Criticism of the UK’s recent wavering on sanctions (re: Russian diesel and jet fuel).
  • “I would speak for rather more sanctions than easing of the sanctions. So we need to really keep up the pressure on the sanctions.”
    (Jana Kucella, 15:48)

Outlook for Ceasefire, and the “Impossibility” of Talks

Key Segment [16:40 - 17:37]

• No sign of Russian flexibility on core war aims; ceasefire unlikely while Russia insists Ukraine must cease to exist as a sovereign, pro-Western nation.
  • “As long as that holds, I see very little room for ceasefire.”
    (Jana Kucella, 16:40)

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3. Serbia’s EU Dilemmas: Anna Brnabić

[18:41] onwards

Mood in Serbia/Balkans: Caught in Geopolitical Crossfire

Key Segment [20:02 - 21:37]

• Serbia, like other Western Balkan states, considers EU integration its top strategic priority.
• Serbia is economically resilient—leading GDP growth in early 2026—but the mood is jittery given the EU’s shifting attitude and regional disputes.

EU Enlargement and “Two-Chairs” Policy

Key Segments [21:37 - 24:21]

• Serbia’s path to EU membership has visibly stalled since 2021, despite technical progress.
• “Why wasn’t [the cluster] open? Because we haven’t aligned fully with the EU foreign security policy.”
  (Anna Brnabić, 24:21)
• Ongoing ambiguity over Serbia’s relationships with both the EU and Russia complicates its accession prospects.

Serbia’s Relations with Russia, the Sanctions Debate

Key Segments [24:50 - 27:26]

• Brnabić rejects “fraternal relationship” label regarding Serbia and Russia.
• Serbia has aligned with the EU on values, voted to condemn Russia at the UN, but has not joined the sanctions regime—citing historical pain from 1990s sanctions as a reason for public opposition.
  • “We have aligned 100% in values...The only thing we did not do is that we did not introduce sanctions to the Russian Federation.”
    (Anna Brnabić, 25:11)

EU Funding and Democratic Backsliding

Key Segments [27:26 - 29:07]

• The EU warns Serbia it could lose €1.5 billion in funds due to backsliding on the rule of law and democratic standards (e.g., handling of protests).
• Brnabić argues that criticism is exaggerated, and similar unrest exists in other EU countries but is overlooked there if those countries support EU foreign policy.
  • “You do push...false narratives and also apply different kind of standards.”
    (Anna Brnabić, 29:07)

Kyiv-Belgrade Relations

Key Segment [30:02 - 31:36]

• Zelenskyy postponed a visit to Belgrade, but ongoing official contact includes economic and integration talks.
• Serbia and Ukraine cooperate on EU trajectory, with a free trade agreement potentially in the works.

Humanizing the Guest: A Depeche Mode/Cranberries Interlude

Key Segment [31:36 - 33:03]

• Brnabić reveals herself as a diehard Depeche Mode (and now Cranberries) fan, lightening the tone after dense geopolitics.

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Notable Quotes

• Jana Kucella (on Ukraine’s role):
  “...There's maybe a wider recognition that actually it's not only Ukraine depending on the West, but it's actually us in Europe more and more depending on Ukraine in the future.”
  (05:32)

• Jana Kucella (on US-Europe security):
  “The United States remains committed to NATO, but they expect Europeans to do more...I think it's about the time that we Europeans take more responsibility in our own security.”
  (12:10)

• Jana Kucella (on Russia’s aims):
  “They want to make sure that Ukraine ceases to exist as a sovereign nation, a nation that can choose its own integration to the West. And as long as that holds, I see very little room for ceasefire.”
  (16:40)

• Anna Brnabić (on sanctions):
  “The only thing we did not do is that we did not introduce sanctions to Russian Federation. And...the perception that is pushed there is that almost because obviously the whole world came to be very simplistic at the black of, at black and white is that when I say this in Brussels people get surprised and say really you have condemned the Russian aggression of Ukraine. And we said yes...”
  (25:11)

• Anna Brnabić (on EU double standards):
  “Albania has aligned 100% with foreign common foreign security policy. And then, you know, you turn a blind eye to anything. Whereas in case of Serbia, you basically...push...false narratives and also apply different kind of standards.”
  (29:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• EU-US Trade Deal and Initial Security Context: 00:30 - 03:04
• Finland’s Role and View on Ukraine: 03:04 - 05:55
• Drone Threats and Electronic Warfare: 05:55 - 08:22
• Flow of NATO Arms and US Troop Reductions: 08:22 - 14:56
• Sanctions and Russian Oil: 14:56 - 16:22
• Prospects for Ceasefire in Ukraine: 16:24 - 17:37
• Serbia’s Strategic Jitters and EU Dilemmas: 18:41 - 21:37
• Enlargement, Alignment, and Values Clash: 21:37 - 27:26
• Protests, Rule of Law, and EU Funding Threats: 27:26 - 29:07
• Serbia-Ukraine Relations: 30:02 - 31:36
• Personal Touch – Depeche Mode & The Cranberries: 31:36 - 33:03

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Memorable Moment

• Anna Brnabić closing on her love for Depeche Mode and The Cranberries as a playful sign-off, reminding listeners of the human side behind international wrangling.
  • “At least if not Serbian politics, then at least my choice of songs. I get some benefit in the end of this interview.”
    (32:35)

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Conclusion

This episode powerfully illustrates how Vladimir Putin’s Russia is pressuring Europe’s eastern flank—from drones in the Baltics to difficult questions of loyalty and alignment in the Balkans. Both guests—Finland’s Jana Kucella and Serbia’s Ana Brnabić—underscore that Europe is at a strategic crossroads, forced to rethink who depends on whom, how unity is tested, and what it will take to ensure peace and sovereignty in a time of war, great-power competition, and alliance uncertainty.

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Transcript

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[Sarah Wheaton]

Here's one way to measure the mood in Brussels this the US EU trade deal is moving forward because Europe has written in a good escape hatch. There have been months of arguments, but finally lawmakers, capitals and the European Commission landed a deal to implement the Turnberry Trade Agreement. Yep, that's the one Ursula von der Leyen and Donald Trump struck at a golf course in Scotland last summer. The basic bargain is still uncomfortable for a lot of people in Brussels. The EU lowers tariffs on many US Goods while hoping Washington sticks to its side of the deal. But Parliament pushed in some off ramps, too, including ways for the EU to suspend parts of the deal if the US Changes course yet again. So transatlantic trade survives, but with a very large asterisk. And that was only one part of the week. Across Europe's eastern flank, drone incursions have been setting off alarms, literally. In recent days, NATO jets have been scrambled after drones entered the airspace of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. And here's the crazy thing, those drones were Ukrainian. But Kyiv insists that these weren't deliberate incursions and actually the result of Russian electronic warfare systems that jamming Ukrainian drones and knocking them off course into neighboring NATO territory. Still, the political fallout has been real. Latvia has already seen a government crisis over how the incidents were handled, including the resignation of the prime minister. So the big question hanging over Brussels and over Europe is pretty existential. What does security look like when trade, fighter jets, drones and Donald Trump are all part of the same conversation? That's where we're going today. Welcome to the Brussels Playbook Weekender. I'm your host Sarah Wheaton. Politico is in Prague this weekend for the GLOBSEC Forum, one of Europe's biggest annual gatherings focused on security, defense and foreign policy, with ministers, generals and top officials all trying to figure out what Europe's next phase looks like. Throughout the weekend, we're hosting a series of interviews in a space we're calling the Politico Speakeasy. You can follow all of that coverage, including streams and our live blog@Politico EU. And now, from Prague, here's my colleague Anne McAlvoy.

[Politico Host]

Thanks, Sarah, for this week's Brussels Playbook Weekender. I'll be sitting down with two Europeans with three in the game, Jana Kucella, permanent Secretary at the Defence Ministry in Finland, and Anna Bernovic, speaker of the national assembly in Serbia and indeed a former prime minister. Both those countries playing roles in the war in Ukraine and a changing European Union. Thanks for joining us here at globsec. Jana Koussila is permanent secretary at the Ministry of Defence in Finland. Now, you're one of several defence and foreign ministers attending from the Nordic and from the Baltic states. Very much exposed on the NATO eastern flank, Finland has really stepped up. It's stepped up as one of the strongest practical supporters of Ukraine giving over 4 billion euros, I think, in military and development aid and humanitarian support since 2022. If I were to read this year and tell me, Anna, if you think this is right, I would say we went into it with a lot of people saying this is going to be a fateful spring in Ukraine and then getting relatively good news and quite a lot of upbeat predictions that the war, with support from NATO and from allies like yourself, is now turning in Ukraine's favor. Do you welcome that or, you know, is there a sense that it could possibly be a bit early to be making such sort of hopeful predictions?

[Jana Kucella]

We heard this many times over in the previous years that the, the war may be winding down and we are seeing chances for peace. But then the war goes on and it's the fifth year now and we all understand how terrible and tough this is for the Ukrainians to do this, and we do best to support them. I think. I mean, the only thing I can say that the Ukrainian people and their defense forces just keep surprising us how incredibly tough and skillful they are. And it's our duty to come up with the support they need and also the pressure to Russia. And I think maybe one new or newer feature which I picked up lately is that there's maybe a wider recognition that actually it's not only Ukraine depending on the west, but it's actually us in Europe more and more depending on Ukraine in the future. They have the strongest military by far in our continent. And the innovation and the production capacity that Ukraine has mustered under these really difficult circumstances really sets an example on us all. And we have so much to learn and gain from working with our Ukrainian colleagues.

[Politico Host]

If we look to the events of the last days, how concerned are you about increased drone activity potentially escalating into a confrontation between NATO and Russia and Possibly being engineered with that in mind. We've seen Ukrainian drones straying from Russia into the Baltic states in the last few days. Even last week, I think Finland stood down its defense forces after an alarm was sounded over suspected drone activities in airspace. On one hand, we have an optimistic story that in drone technology the iteration is so fast. The use of drones in the theater of war is putting Ukraine, as you point out, not just in the position of a country that needs help, but a country that can contribute and has much to teach us. At the same time, you know, populations will be saying, I'm kind of quite worried about this, you know, that drones are being sent off track by Russia and either flying into or causing alarms to sound across the north of Europe. Just your thoughts on that?

[Jana Kucella]

Well, of course, I mean, like any country, Finland doesn't like the idea of having drones with explosives in payload heading to your direction. And we of course don't tolerate our airspace being violated. Having said that, we of course fully understand and recognize why this is taking place. Ukraine is trying to defend itself and part of that is to hit in the depth of the enemy. And the Ukrainians have become more skillful in that. And the pace and the number of drones they can send to kind of far away targets inside Russia has increased a lot. And that's kind of. Then part of the ramifications is that when Russia is activating its air defenses, occasionally drones to escape from their intended flight paths. But then again, I mean, we have the capacity to act when and if that happens and we have a good surveillance capacity so can put that in the right kind of context. And as you said, we are as I guess everybody else are really interested in the Ukrainian know how and their technologies in both using drones and then counter drones.

[Politico Host]

How do you see then the broader picture that's widen out a bit just from the north and the Baltics to Europe, and particularly as a recent entrant into NATO. Now we've seen the supreme Allied Commander, General Grinkovic, hailing the Ukrainian fight extraordinary resilience and innovation in the fifth year of the war this week and saying everything the allies have paid for is flowing despite reports of some delays. But do you agree with that? It was quite an upbeat statement and I think there was a feeling that NATO needed to say something quite optimistic. But do you think that armaments and supplies are really getting to Ukraine fast enough at scale?

[Jana Kucella]

I think we are doing the best we can. And I know that for example, Poland has a really critical role in all of this and there are many Countries who are supporting kind of delivering the packages in time. And there's very little room for lags in the sense that Ukraine needs on a daily basis more ammunition and all the equipment. But my sense is also on the lines that it gets through. And you can see it also, I mean, in the Ukrainian success to hold on the defensive line against much larger enemy in numbers and an enemy which has also been learning kind of new things as the war has advanced. So I'm sure there's always room for improvement. But I know that the professionals, the service people who are dealing with these deliveries are doing the very best they can. I think it's more often the case is, I mean, in a broader scale is how rapidly the European governments are able to react and appropriate funding, and then things get rolling on.

[Politico Host]

We have a bit of a mixed picture at the moment, don't we? Because you have that sort of relatively good news coming from Ukraine and that upbeat assessment there by the NATO general. At the same time, we're seeing, if we go back the last weeks, we've seen what we've seen the threat to move 5,000 troops out of Germany and then the cancellation of a rotational deployment by the US To Poland, which has prompted a lot of confusion among British civilian and military leadership. So that's an aspect of this picture at the moment. Do you think that this weakens NATO?

[Jana Kucella]

I think President Trump has been kind of delivering on those lines, which he spoke when he was campaigning and got elected, and he made it clear that he would like to see us having lesser boots on the ground in Europe and diminishing the presence. And we see some of that now. I don't think that's fatal for NATO's defense. I think the more important issue is that the United States remains committed to the alliance, and that is the case. We've heard it loud and clear that the United States is committed to NATO, but they expect Europeans to do more.

[Politico Host]

Can I just sort of reality check on that? We've got too big, previously probably unthinkable moves to take basically take forces out of Europe and not just in Germany symbolically, but it's a major kind of command hub for lots of other operations and for lots of intelligence and also technological application of that presence. It's sometimes thought of it as just sort of a bit cross with Germany, but I think it's more than that. Can you really say that there is a commitment to NATO, given that that's what is happening?

[Jana Kucella]

Yeah, Well, I mean, I've been participating in the NATO's defence ministerial meetings, all of them until now. And I think the message has been very clear what Secretary of War hexed has been delivering for the European colleagues. And it is that US remains committed to NATO. The US is also interested to have lesser presence in NATO. And the US expects that Europeans will take more responsibility on the security of our own continent. And I think that's a fair deal. We should. I think it's about the time that we Europeans take more responsibility in our own security.

[Politico Host]

But we can't replace those numbers of troops right now. Right. So I wonder whether your President Alexander Stubba has got a good and he's got a constructive relationship with the Trump administration and golf partner of Trump himself at times. Isn't there a role there to try perhaps to use that leverage? It sounds like you accept this idea that these troops are going to be pulled out or rotations aren't going to occur and oh well, we can step up in Europe, but we know it takes a long time. I mean Finland may be somewhat exceptional here in this. It's already had quite a lot of readiness because of the border with Russia. It's had a big whole society effort and you've got National Security Service. But that's not true of most of Europe. So it makes me wonder why your relaxed relative, if I'm reading you correctly, about this withdrawal or this tendency just to pull back in the end, it's manpower, it's noticeable.

[Jana Kucella]

Well, three things. First of all, not the surprise of what we've been hearing and I mean this is second term of President Trump and we have these elements in the air in the first term as well. Secondly, I don't think the numbers is the issue. Europe's defense does not depend on 5,000 forces here or 10,000 there. You are right to say that Europe would need much more forces than we have, but we still do have forces in Europe and we have them a lot in Finland. But what I focus more is the key capabilities and Europe is very dependent on many key capabilities that we expect and hope that the US Would deliver. And here's the thing, what we really need to focus on and to acquire those capabilities in Europe and that takes a lot from all of us. And the good thing is that we have no more investment and we have the process in NATO's defence planning process where we can we have very targeted, meticulous system how to do it. But it will take some time.

[Politico Host]

This week a story, I don't know if you've been across it, but a plan in the UK to impose a ban on imports of diesel and jet fuels from Russia. Basically, it was watered down, the sanctions that were around that amid concerns over supplies and price rises off the back, obviously, of the Straits of Wholemouths and the ongoing crisis in Iran. Now, this caused quite a stir and a pushback in Kyiv with the sanctions commissioner in Ukraine saying that he disagreed with the UK approach, which was like, can you give us just take a break from the sanctions on this form of oil and gas? But I think it was to do with a perceived shortage or dangerous shortage of jet fuel. Do you think that sent the wrong message in terms of staying on course on sanctions towards Russia?

[Jana Kucella]

Well, I mean, each government makes its own calls based on reasoning, and I'm not in a position to comment any other government's actions. But if you ask me, in general, I would speak for rather more sanctions than easing of the sanctions. So we need to really keep up the pressure on the sanctions.

[Politico Host]

But could you imagine Finland making a kind of move that the UK made, or however temporary it's intended to be?

[Jana Kucella]

Well, I mean, we haven't had such a discussion in Finland.

[Politico Host]

But you would prefer that sanctions were more consistent, in other words?

[Jana Kucella]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Politico Host]

I think that message might well be heard in London. You think we'll get to anything like ceasefire talks in the next year? Russia, Ukraine or we still so far away from that because of the conduct of the war, the deepening of the conflict?

[Jana Kucella]

First of all, I haven't heard that Russia has backed down a bit from the original demands of the demand from Ukraine. And basically, they want to make sure that Ukraine ceases to exist as a sovereign nation, a nation that can choose its own integration to the West. And as long as that holds, I see very little room for ceasefire. The United States has been working hard to negotiate and facilitate a ceasefire, and that hasn't materialized to a ceasefire. And I ask myself, if the United States can't do that, then who can? So, of course, I mean, we all do hope that the war would end rather sooner than later and Ukrainians could start to recover from the long conflict and get back to normal life. That's. That's clear. But, I mean, it's really difficult to say when that moment comes, when the conditions are right.

[Politico Host]

Yannickuzel, thank you very much. I think we ranged quite far and wide in a short conversation, so thank you very much for joining me on stage.

[Jana Kucella]

Thank you very much.

[Politico Host]

We'll be back in a few moments to hear my conversation with Anna Bernabic, the Speaker of the Serbian Parliament. Indeed, a Former Prime Minister about which way her country is to returning with the war in Ukraine and zigzag relations with the eu.

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[Politico Host]

I have with me someone I'm very much looking forward to talking about at this critical time in Europe's story and in our defence and security journey, and that's Anna Bernovic, the Speaker of the national assembly in Serbia and former Prime Minister. Indeed. Well, welcome to, to the speakeasy here at the GLOB Forum here in Prague and Politico. Thank you. And we've met on the road a couple of times, but I think we met about.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

It was, it was a long time ago I was Prime Minister and we met unbelievably in Hong Kong.

[Politico Host]

We met in Hong Kong as we do on the international circuit. So you've had an extraordinary journey. You've been Prime Minister of your country, you're now a speaker of Parliament. The European kaleidoscope has definitely been shaken, as has the global geopolitical one. Since we had that conversation, I want to say, about six, seven years ago, how are you finding the mood? And I think of the mood here in Prague, where we meet and in your native Belgrade, is it sort of jittery, particularly over these, you know, the sense of the war with Ukraine and Russia is ongoing, the drone incursions in the Baltic states, the questions over America's posture in European security, I mean, just give us a sense of the mood as you're feeling it.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Well, I will start with how this impacts our European integration path, because for Serbia, much like for all other Western Balkans partners, EU integration is kind of number one strategic priority. And I think faced with all of these challenges, the EU is also changing, and the EU is changing their standpoint towards enlargement. And obviously this is becoming an increasingly hot topic. Also thinking more ambitiously about Ukraine, Moldova, also Iceland. And so in the Western Balkans, obviously, including Serbia, we're looking at things from that perspective. That's kind of politically, economically, obviously, we feel all of the economic challenges and grievances that everyone else does in Europe and across the world, unfortunately because of other conflicts. And we try to actually use the buffers that we have accumulated over time to ease this burden on our citizens and our economy. Succeeding thus far we have had the biggest GDP growth of all European countries in first quarter of 2026, which is 3%, which is not high. But it also tells you a little bit about, you know, the struggle of, of European economy in general.

[Politico Host]

Well, let me unpack some of that because you went straight towards the EU accession as a priority question for your country. And the EU has stepped up efforts to inte Western Balkan nations, including Sebia, since the Russia full scale invasion of Ukraine. I mean, I think that's been seen, as you put it, as a part of this kind of balancing in an attempt to come to, to the best possible arrangement there. But, but Serbia is very confusing in some ways on this, isn't it? I mean, you have, you know, a country that wants to get into the eu, as you put it at the very top of your answers, because Anna and I always have a bit of a fight. So she's smiling at me already. But you want to get into the eu. But at time your president, President Vucic maintains close relationships with Russia which has engaged in a war of aggression against Ukraine. And he even turned up to victory day in Russia alongside Vladimir Putin last year. Isn't there a danger that this, you know, the two, two stools, two chairs road for Serbia just weakens any prospect of you joining the eu?

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Well, to be honest, it's, it doesn't make things easier on us, which is more than ob. We did not open any new cluster in the EU integration process since December 2021. I was still Prime Minister at the time. And I remember well at the time when I was in Brussels, we were ready, technically ready to open two clusters. Cluster four, not to be too administrative, but just explain which is on energy and green Agenda and Cluster 3, which is basically on economy and competitiveness. At that point in time, what we heard from Brussels was it might be too much to open two clusters at the same time, whereas now they're opening all of the clusters to Albania and Montenegro kind of in a day. So you know, at the time that was 2021, it was too much to open two clusters to Serbia, although we were ready in one go.

[Politico Host]

The big difference is 2022.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in one go. And so you see, and we agreed that, okay, we're not going to in one go, we are going to open one cluster in December 2021 and then by mid of 2022 we're going to open another cluster. The cluster three on economy and competitiveness hasn't been opened to date. So basically almost five years. Although for five consecutive progress report the European Commission was saying that Serbia is ready and gave recommendations to all of EU member states to open this cluster. Why wasn't it open? Because we haven't aligned fully with the EU foreign security policy.

[Politico Host]

Why not then? Why not? If the UEU accession is so important to the future of your country and as you point out, you've got a, you know, you've got a lot of things on, on your side and I know you're partly responsible in your former role in finance in Serbia. But you know, do you think that in the end if Serbia really wants to join the EU then it cannot at the same time be keeping these tight ties to Moscow and suggesting a kind of fraternal relationship with the Putin administration?

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Well, firstly, I wouldn't say these are really fraternal relationships and I think that, you know, the tight ties are kind of perception and the narrative that I think does not actually show that clear of a picture. We sure have the President Aleksandr Vucic has a communication with President Putin, but I would argue that some other EU leaders even have some communication with Putin or Putin's administration. But having said that, I would also like to say two things. Firstly, that Serbia has aligned 100% in values. What we have said clearly is that what has happened is a clear act of aggression. What has happened is also a clear breach of international law. We have voted alongside our EU partners in the UN General assembly to condemn the act of aggression. We have voted to expel Russia Federation from Human Rights Council. So in terms of values, we have 100% aligned. The only thing we did not do is that we did not introduce sanctions to Russian Federation. And the whole narrative and the perception that is pushed there is that almost because obviously the whole world came to be very simplistic at the black of, at black and white is that when I say this in Brussels people get surprised and say really you have condemned the Russian aggression of Ukraine. And we said yes, you are the ones who are saying that you are completely respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine.

[Politico Host]

I said yes, but no.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

At the same time Ukraine is respecting territorial integrity of Serbia. Ukraine is one country that did not recognize the so called Kosovo. So we, I would say that, you know, the perception is one thing and in my view the only, the, the only reason why we haven't introduced sanctions to Russian Federation is that we were subjected to sanctions back in the 90s. Our people do not like sanctions. But if you, if you look at

[Politico Host]

the eu, the whole point of sanctions is you're not supposed to like them. You said they're supposed to, to put a pressure point on you to change behavior.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

The way that we are kind of almost being thought is that EU is primarily the European family of nations based on values. And in terms of values, we have aligned in terms of sanctions. We don't have that big of an exchange, trade exchange with Russia. If you think about it, we have more trade exchange with Bosnia and Herzegovina than with Russia. So it's insignificant. It's completely insignificant.

[Politico Host]

So the EU enlargement commissioner, Marta Kos, said Serbia could lose access to about 1.5 billion euros, a considerable amount of EU funds, if it fails to halt what she called democratic backsliding. And talked, of course, about some of the treatment of protesters in the protests in Serbia across the last year and coming back this year in some forms. She says, we are increasingly worried about what's happening in Serbia and assessing whether the country fulfills the conditions for payments under the EU's financial instruments. I mean, that does not sound as if your country is perceived to be on the route there towards the eu. And there are credible reports, Politico and others, of repressive measures against the opposition in Serbia.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

If we look at the oppressive measures that one can see in the Netherlands or in France or in Germany towards protesters, even at the registered protests, and we had, you know, more than 13,000 unregistered process protests, I wouldn't say again that we had kind of measures that would even meet what we see in some other EU member states. But that is beside the point. And it's up for a much larger discussion and much larger argument.

[Politico Host]

I mean, I'm not seeing a lot, you know, the tear gassing of protesters. It's been intense. And you could see what, you know,

[Announcer/Advertiser]

in some ways we haven't seen your guess. Perhaps it was, it was Netherlands or it was Slovenia.

[Politico Host]

So you're concerned basically saying some of this, this narrative you feel is not accurate, but absolutely.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

We saw, for example, interestingly, tear gas and water cannons used against protesters in Albania, but no one said a word. And why is that? In my view, because Albania has aligned 100% with foreign common foreign security policy. And then, you know, you turn a blind eye to anything. Whereas in case of Serbia, you basically, you know, you, you do push to quite a large extent, false narratives and also apply different kind of standards. But again, going back to Martha Kos's statement, it was. It was related to a set of judicial laws that were changed. And we're now working on this. And on 12th of June, I'm going to attend the Venice Commission plenary session to discuss that. And I hope that soon enough we will have this cleared.

[Politico Host]

Let's widen out a bit and talk about relations between Kyiv and Belgrade, obviously complicated because of some of the factors on Serbia's stance. President Zelenskyy was supposed to have visited Belgrade this week, which I think would have been his first visit since the start of the full scale invasion. But there are reports that that visit has been postponed and that instead Taras Kachka, the Deputy Prime Minister for European and Atlantic Euro. Atlantic integration, is expected to visit. Do you know why Zelenskyy isn't going to go to Belgrade?

[Announcer/Advertiser]

No idea. I'm not sure that that was an officially confirmed visit. I have really great relations with my counterpart, the President of the Ukrainian Parliament, Verkhovna Rada, Mr. Stefanchuk, and we are constantly in touch. I hope that he will soon visit Serbia because I was in November of last year in Kiev, a really good visit. But today it was a very good visit. From there, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr. Kochka, and just signed the MoU on cooperation on our joint EU integration efforts and also open discussions on signing the free trade agreement between Ukraine and Serbia. And we hope that those negotiations will be able to conclude successfully by the end of the year. So quite a lot of exchange between Ukraine and Serbia just before we close.

[Politico Host]

Something that. I don't know how many people in this audience know this about you, but I do. You are the world's greatest dipesh Mode fan. And this is this still the case? I know that's a bit of a hard term from what we were just talking about. One thing I was fascinated by is you were. You were educated partly at a very high level in the UK as an economist, where you once told me that you basically fell in love with Depeche Mode. So I thought we should let you have. Just tell us why.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

I love them. I don't know since. Since I was very young. But more recently I went back to Cranberries.

[Politico Host]

Oh, you went to Cranberries? Yes.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

So, yeah, but it's like, you know, I feel kind of embarrassed because I feel like I'm 120 years old right now. But she's also.

[Politico Host]

Okay, favorite Cranberries track. We might as well do Death Linger. Absolutely.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Politico Host]

Did that get that we all that

[Announcer/Advertiser]

one who's also 120 years old.

[Politico Host]

I think you were just winning the audience over on your Cranberries.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Okay, great. At least if not Serbian politics, then at least my choice of songs. I get some some benefit in the end of this interview.

[Politico Host]

You did.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

I do get some break.

[Politico Host]

Harsh but fair. But we could agree on Death. My producer Peter Snowden had three suggestions for you from Depeche Mode, favorite song titles, it's no Good, Never Let Me Down Again, or Enjoy the Silence right now.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

Enjoy the Silence.

[Politico Host]

Anna Van Impech, thank you very much indeed.

[Sarah Wheaton]

And that's it from us this week. Please make sure you subscribe to the Brussels Playbook podcast that's now the home of the Weekender alongside our daily show. And do get in touch with comments, ideas or guests and topics you'd like us to tackle. You can reach us@podcastolitico, EU or via our WhatsApp. You'll find the link and number in the show notes. As always, thanks to the audio production team Deanna Sturris, our supervising producer, senior producer Peter Snowden, and producer Saga Ringmar. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week.

[Announcer/Advertiser]

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[Politico Host]

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[Announcer/Advertiser]

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