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- [00:00]
Antonio Guterres
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- [00:32]
Sarah Wheaton
it was not supposed to be like this. For once, the EU was going to set its own agenda. European countries agree that they need to take charge of their own destiny. And this week leaders from the EU 27 were going to hunker down and get serious about boosting European industry. You know everybody's favorite C word competitiveness. I mean, that's the word I expected to be echoing around this corridor as I stand here towards the end of the latest European Council summit. Nope. Once again, Donald Trump hijacked the agenda. This time it's the war he's waging on Iran alongside Israel. Europe isn't officially involved, but it sure is affected by snarled trade routes, spiking energy prices, and fears that the violence won't stay limited to the Middle east for long. Indeed, Israel and Iran might both be guilty of war crimes by targeting energy infrastructure. That's what UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres told my colleague Anne McElroy in an interview for this podcast.
- [01:41]
Antonio Guterres
If there are attacks either on Iran or from Iran energy infrastructure, I think that there are reasonable grounds to think that they might constitute a war crime,
- [01:54]
Anne McElvoy
suggesting that each or both sides could have committed a war crime.
- [01:59]
Antonio Guterres
Both sides? I don't see any difference in relation to if we target civilians. It doesn't matter who targets civilians. The targeting of civilians is totally unacceptable. And of course, civilian infrastructure like this one is also extremely, extremely serious.
- [02:18]
Sarah Wheaton
Guterres spoke to Anne in Brussels after conferring with EU27 leaders over lunch. It was part of a marathon meeting where they grappled once again with the seeming impotence of big international organizations like the United nations and the European Union. So what can the EU do to insulate citizens from the fallout of Trump's war in Iran? How will the instability affect Brussels? Other priorities like Ukraine and strategic autonomy. And even if there were solutions to all these problems, would countries actually manage to agree on any of them? I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of EU Confidential. Later in the episode, we'll bring you more of Anne McAvoy's interview with the UN Secretary General. But first, it's a European Council summit. And so we are here late on a Thursday night in the Justus Lipsius building. Joining me are Zoya Shevtolovich, a familiar voice and chief EU correspondent. She's not to be confused with our senior climate reporter Zia Weissa. And also here is chief foreign affairs correspondent Nick Vinoker. So I went back and re listened to our episode from the previous Yuko in January. Zoya, Nick, you guys were both there with me. And at that time, you know, leaders were actually feeling pretty good. Trump had just backed down on his threats against Greenland. They felt like they had a game plan. They thought they might actually use their trade bazooka. At the same time, they came away saying, look, what worked here is we were united and okay, we get it, we need to make some big reforms to help us stand on our own. And so they planned this summit to talk about competitiveness and then it all devolved into chaos again. Nick.
- [04:02]
Nick Vinoker
That's right. I mean, this is sort of a pattern where effectively it's Donald Trump setting the agenda of one European Council after another. The last one was Greenland, this one where it was the war in Iran that is completely overshadowed this summit with the energy crisis that it's caused. So that immediately went to the top of the agenda, the spike in global energy prices and, you know, various European countries saying, we need help right now, short term fixes to deal with these crises. And effectively, as they're sitting here, we find out that, you know, Belgium's energy supply, Italy's energy supply is going to be severely affected by strikes that have happened in Qatar. This very sort of live feeling that this was another crisis summit, effectively.
- [04:50]
Sarah Wheaton
We also kind of in parallel saw this debate about to what extent countries should intervene, help Trump try to clear the blockage in the Strait of Hormuz.
- [04:59]
Zoya Shevtolovich
Yeah, this has been a topic of conversation over the past week. At the beginning of the week, Donald Trump got really mad after EU countries said that they weren't going to be helping out and, you know, look elsewhere. There was a conversation at the council tonight around what is going happen with that, should the EU actually contribute. In part, there is a fear that if the EU doesn't help out the US now, then Trump may retaliate and not help Ukraine. So there is this sense that maybe Europe does need to do something. So there was a discussion around perhaps what that looks like is some sort of a UN focused mission that the EU contributes to. There were a few countries, five countries that came out overnight and said, look, we would consider sending ships to such a mission. So I think there was kind of coalescing around the idea that maybe Europe does need to step up a little bit and help secure the Strait. Not to condone what Israel and the US Are doing in Iran necessarily, but to ensure that the global flow of oil and fertilizer and so forth through the Strait of Hormuz continues.
- [06:05]
Sarah Wheaton
And just to plug the next part of the podcast, Anne McElvoy interviewed Antonio Guterres and he made some points about how hard it will actually be to clear out the Strait of Hormuz. But sticking with the eu actually, we saw the intervention, intersection of all of these wars and energy availability collide with regard to one country. Zoya, you've been talking about it all week. Hungary. There was a big question if they would be able to get Viktor Orban to drop his late Veto on the 90 billion euro loan to Ukraine. Didn't work.
- [06:36]
Zoya Shevtolovich
It did not. Sarah. And this was what was interesting to me was there were a few people, particularly in the Berlin camp, who thought that maybe we would get here in the end. And they thought that maybe what would happen is Vladimir Zelensky would ring into this video conference and he would perhaps assure Viktor Orban, yeah, look, I'm going to fix this pipeline. They thought maybe that commission mission that was en route to the site of that damage might have arrived, inspected it and given a sense of what the timing might look like. So there were all sorts of plans. And the story that I've got coming out shortly has some reporting about what happened in the room last night. Ultimately, what happened was Viktor Orban was not interested in any of the solutions that were being offered. He wanted to make this a political point for his election campaign ahead of that April 12 election. And so the leaders pretty quickly, within like 90 minutes, realized he wasn't going to be budging. And so they just called it quits. And they said, that's it, we will move this to the next Yuko in April. That's the informal European Council summit in Cyprus. And I think that's when this issue is going to be really back, front and center, because the leaders today were hideously upset at the fact that Orban went back on his word that he gave at that December. Yuko. So I think by the time we meet again in April, there's going to be some sort of coalescing. If Orban is back, then there will be some action at that EU Council summit.
- [08:03]
Sarah Wheaton
Nick, what are some of the ideas for how to deal with Orban? It seems like there's kind of a mix of Karen and Sticks.
- [08:12]
Nick Vinoker
Yeah, I mean, up until now there has been a desire not to feed into his election campaign. So any action, any statement that would be inflammatory or sort of build on the conflict, you know, they knew that Orban was going to feed it right into his social media account. That's effectively what he did right here today. Came out of the council room and started recording videos about how he's isolated. What I've been hearing from some diplomats, and this is a little bit sort of early stage, is that if he is reelected, they're willing to start a serious conversation of how to deal with Hungary or basically the idea of rebellious states, states that don't behave in sincere cooperation with other EU countries. We know that the Article 7 this would allow them to strip voting rights from Hungary. That's a tough hurdle to cross because you need to effectively unanimity minus one. But they're also talking about other avenues, more funds that can be frozen and other ways of sort of reining in Orban. And everything we heard, just like Zoya was saying, is that the tone around the table was harsher and more confrontational than it ever has been before. Tonight in Brussels.
- [09:23]
Sarah Wheaton
Yeah, we heard in the closing press conference Council President Antonio Costa, known for being kind of a backsliding slapper, friendly guy, saying the council cannot be blackmailed remains to be seen. Zia, I want to turn to you. So let's dive into this energy pricing debate affecting the whole bloc. You've been reporting on this really fascinating tension. This is the second time in four years that European countries have been cut off from a major fossil fuel supplier. So it makes sense to double down on renewables, but it's not a fast fix.
- [09:56]
Zia Weissa
It's important to keep in mind that at least for the time being, there's not really a problem supply. Qatar, for example, is only 4% of the EU's gas supply. The real problem is that all of this is driving up prices on global markets. And the EU is really exposed to that and yeah, to that. Renewables aren't a short term fix, they're long term fix. Like they're going to wean the EU off fossil fuels of importance. But a lot of the debate here Today in Brussels has been, you know, what can we do in the short term? What can we ask of the European Commission in the short term without having any unintended side consequences and side effects that hamper the more long term goals?
- [10:40]
Sarah Wheaton
And some countries are pushing to at least temporarily scrap the EU's major lever for renewables and for fighting climate change. Can you walk us a little bit through the emissions trading system and what the discussion was about today?
- [10:55]
Zia Weissa
Sure. I mean the emissions trading system basically reduces emissions by having factories and power plants pay for their emissions. So it sort of incentivizes a switch to cleaner production methods, cleaner sources of energy. But because it charges that price, it also adds a little bit to energy bills and it actually adds roughly 11%. I mean it accounts for 11% of the the average European bill. That's comparatively little, but it is a bit higher in some countries that are particularly dependent on fossil fuels, such as Poland or the Czech Republic. And from those countries you hear like a lot of demands that can you please do something about this to the European Commission, can you please take the price down? Can you do something about that? And on the other side you have countries that are sort of more climate ambitious, like Spain, like the Nordics. I say, you know, do not touch this instrument. It's been really successful.
- [11:55]
Sarah Wheaton
And so where did we land? Are they going to make changes to this really landmark system?
- [12:01]
Zia Weissa
So what you heard today is that there'll be a long planned reform that the commission will do this summer and that it will be modernized. And so far it's really not a huge decision at happened here. I think the cans basically being kicked down the road. I mean this is basically sort of the starting gun's been fired for the lobbying around, like government lobbying around this reform. And we'll probably keep coming back to this exact debate like for the next few leaders summits.
- [12:35]
Sarah Wheaton
So is the EU actually doing anything to provide relief on energy price spikes caused by the war?
- [12:43]
Zia Weissa
So the commission's tactic is broadly to sort of pass the buck to member states and saying look like you can cut power taxes or grid charges or do some subsidies to help people and companies with their energy bills. But they've also said they're going to try and look into some more short term things. Ursula von Andein promised to make some proposals and adjustments over the coming days and weeks and months that are not entirely clear yet. So we'll have to see what they are.
- [13:14]
Sarah Wheaton
Okay. Days and weeks and months. I think we're all actually just hoping this conflict will resolve itself in the days and weeks and months, not seeing a lot of signs that the EU is going to do much in that direction. Stepping back. When Antonio Costa came in as the new head of the European Council, he was really trying to say, look, I'm a friendly guy, I want us all to get along. We're going to have retreats together with the leaders. He went to each capital. He kind of famously cultivated an individual relationship with Viktor Orban. I'm not seeing that he really has anything to show for it. Orban's going back on his promises. This is the second time that we've seen statements on Ukraine signed, not by 27 countries, not even by 26 countries, but by only 25 countries. Now he's losing people. You know. Nick, what does this say about Koshita's effectiveness?
- [14:05]
Nick Vinoker
Yeah, I think this is a big test for him, and we saw it in his press conference at the end of this council, where he's trying to reassert his authority, essentially, and say, you know, we will not allow ourselves to be blackmailed by Viktor Orban. But as you said, this is actually the second time that Orban, or probably more than that, has come and has basically called the leader's bluff and come to a council with some obstruction, some obstacle. And the EU leaders have prided themselves with finding a way around it or finding some kind of trade with Orban to bring him on board. And effectively, they've never really, you know, gotten him to sort of bend in a way. And I've certainly heard the critique from some diplomats around town that Costa's method, which is friendly exchanges of letters, may not be all that effective. And they also point to the fact that in this latest standoff, Costa sent a letter to Orban saying, you have violated a key principle of the European Union and people were expecting some consequences, and those consequences have not yet come. So you're hearing critiques saying, you know, we should be playing more hardball with Viktor Orban. That's not what Costa's doing. He is the good copy in this scenario, but obviously that is showing its limits.
- [15:27]
Sarah Wheaton
And, Zoya, in the lead up to this summit, we heard a lot of complaints from countries that Commission President Ursula von der Leyen was overstepping her authority to make decisions about EU foreign policy. But like, we're seeing EU leaders just get farther and farther apart on that.
- [15:41]
Zoya Shevtolovich
Yeah, I think there was always criticism around Ursula von der Leyen perhaps doing too much, going too far, taking too much power, centralising power. The flip side of that, which is the argument that her people make and her backers make and have been making to me repeatedly over the last few weeks is, look, no one else is doing it. We don't have a Merkel figure who's taking charge, who's ringing up Victor and making him bend. We don't have someone, you know, like Macron at the peak of his powers, who's able to come in and really make the decisions that need to be made. So the argument is, look, there is a vacuum. There is no one, you know, Friedrich Merz, the German chancellor, isn't doing it. The French president is weakened because of the fact that he's facing this election next year. So ultimately, what the backers of von der Leyen say is, no one else is doing it. Someone's got to take charge. And so she stepped into that void. So I think there are two sides to that argument. But certainly you do get a sense of frustration among certain diplomats and from certain countries who are saying, look, Ursula von der Leyen, take a step back. This is our job.
- [16:46]
Sarah Wheaton
Last time we talked about the summit being a tipping point, when there was a clear game plan for dealing with Trump. What are you going to be watching over the next month? Let's say, if we're writing the first draft of history here, to make your judgment about the significance of this, Yuko,
- [17:03]
Nick Vinoker
I would look at Ukraine, basically. I don't know if it's this, Yuko, but. But clearly what we're seeing is Trump's attention drift away, even further away from Ukraine now. He's fully invested in the Iran war. He's losing interest in the peace process, and that's putting more of the onus on the Europeans to be able to supply Ukraine, to be able to push that peace process forward. So it'll be interesting to watch if the Europeans try to really kind of grab the wheel in the peace process, perhaps even started some form of dialogue directly with Putin that's been floated by a few leaders now. I think that's a dynamic to watch really closely in coming months.
- [17:41]
Zoya Shevtolovich
For me, I think this Hungarian election is really all I'm thinking about, because I think if Viktor Orban is reelected and he comes back to that next European Council summit, the informal in Cyprus, and he is still acting like a blocker, or even if he's not acting like a blocker, but just, you know, having seen what he did and the fact that he went back on his word and the EU does nothing, then that's going to be a huge, huge tell about its powerlessness. I think what I'LL be watching for is do they put forward some sort of plan, some sort of punishment, because what he has done has crossed a red line. All of the leaders have said it, Kosta said it, von der Leyen said it. So, you know, if you cross a red line, usually that means you've got to get punished. So I'm going to be looking to see whether he suffers any sorts of consequences at that April summit. If he's still in power, if he doesn't win that election, then of course, I'll be watching very closely to see what his competitor, Peter Magiar, does.
- [18:38]
Sarah Wheaton
Well, we are all exhausted. Some of you still have deadlines to meet. So, Zia, Nick, Zoya, thank you so much for joining me.
- [18:44]
Zia Weissa
Thank you.
- [18:45]
Nick Vinoker
Thanks for having us.
- [18:46]
Zoya Shevtolovich
Thanks for me.
- [18:49]
Sarah Wheaton
All right, we'll leave it there, but we'll be back shortly with Anne's conversation with Antonio Guterres. Welcome back. And now to Politico exclusive, Anne McAvoy's interview with Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General.
- [19:04]
Anne McElvoy
Thanks, Sarah. UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres is in Brussels for the EU Council, probably one of his last appearances with European leaders as his mandate ends in December. He's also been meeting Ursula von der Leyen, the commission president. Mr. Guterres has said the war in the Middle east must stop. But as the attacks and retaliation rise, is his organisation still relevant or a toothless relic of the rules based order? Antonio Guterres, welcome to this EU confidential interview.
- [19:36]
Antonio Guterres
It's a very, very big pleasure to do it.
- [19:40]
Anne McElvoy
So we are sitting here in the UN building in Brussels, next door to the European Council. In between your meetings with EU leaders and ahead of the summit, you said de escalation and dialogue are the only out of the crisis in Iran and across the Gulf, you urged a return to the negotiating table. Are you at all confident after your visit to Brussels that that could be possible?
- [20:10]
Antonio Guterres
Well, it is possible, but it depends on the political will to do it. I am convinced that Israel, as a strategy, wants to achieve total destruction of the military capacity of Iran and regime change. I believe Iran has a strategy which is to resist as much time as possible and to cause as much harm as possible to the world at large, not only to the region. And so the key to solve the problem is in the us. And I think, I hope that sooner rather than later the US decides to claim that they have done their job, that they have won, let us say, from their perspective. The war is, my deep belief, needs to stop and I believe that it is in the hands of the US to make it stop.
- [21:06]
Anne McElvoy
And you believe that there could be an outcome in which the US Would be seen to have won this war?
- [21:12]
Antonio Guterres
Well, I think that President Trump will be able to convince those that need to be convinced that the work is done, that the work can end.
- [21:23]
Anne McElvoy
Can I ask if you've spoken with President Trump at all in this crisis?
- [21:28]
Antonio Guterres
No, no, no. But I've been in contact with all sides, and indeed, it's my deep belief that it's absolutely vital for the world at large that this war ends quickly. And by the way, the biggest beneficiary of this war is Russia. Russia has violated international law, has violated the Charter.
- [21:50]
Anne McElvoy
The Iran crisis is a distraction from
- [21:53]
Antonio Guterres
Russia, is gaining more with what's happening in this horrible disaster that is the Iran crisis.
- [21:59]
Anne McElvoy
But the conflict has intensified after Iran struck at the gas facilities in Qatar and after its own south PAS gas field was targeted by Israeli strikes. We've seen markets in turmoil. We've seen a very strong worded post from President Trump warning Iran against further attacks in Qatar. In a sense, it does look this particular incidents and the fallout from it, even in the time I think that you've been here on the ground in Europe, has, has been immense. Is it spiraling out of control?
- [22:33]
Antonio Guterres
This is indeed spiraling out of control. And the recent attacks represent an escalation that is extremely, extremely dangerous. And that is the reason why I believe that we must stop this war sooner rather than later, because, as you mentioned, things have spiraled out of control.
- [22:53]
Anne McElvoy
It was interesting that you gave your first answer, really, about the US and the US Influence. And if they got to the point where they could say the job is done, they could withdraw from this conflict. But at the same time, we have President Trump saying the US Knew nothing about Israel's attack on the gas field in Iran on Wednesday. Do you feel the US still has influence over Israel in this conflict to hold off on attacks in Iran, given what happened overnight?
- [23:24]
Antonio Guterres
But that's exactly what proves that only the US can stop this war, because apparently Israel has, as I said, an objective that is the total destruction of the capacities of Iran, the regime change, which were never initiated in the objectives by the United States. So my hope is that the United States will be able to understand that this has gone too far.
- [23:50]
Anne McElvoy
The Director of the U.S. national Account Terrorism Center, Joe Kent, who resigned this week in protest at the war, said Iran posed no immediate threat to our nation, to the US and that the war started due to pressure from Israel. Do you believe that to be true?
- [24:07]
Antonio Guterres
I have no doubt that this was expressed by the Secretary of State. I have no doubt that this was something that corresponds to Israel's strategy that has been since a long time ago to draw the influence United States into a war with Iran. That objective was achieved, but now there is another objective that is much more important. This conflict is creating dramatic suffering in Iran, but in the region, even in Israel. And it is creating a devastating impact in the global economy whose consequences are still early to foresee. So we, we absolutely must end the conflict, absolutely must open the Strait of Hormuz. We absolutely must create conditions for the oil, gas, fertilizers to gain have access to the global markets. If not, some countries, especially the most vulnerable countries, will suffer enormously and they have nothing to do with this conflict.
- [25:10]
Anne McElvoy
The charter of the International Criminal Court defines attacks against civilian infrastructure, including energy infrastructure, as constituting crimes of war. And we've seen this broading out in the last few days into attacks on oil and gas facilities. Do you believe that war crimes in any sense of that phrase have been committed in the attacks on Iran?
- [25:34]
Antonio Guterres
If there are attacks either on Iran or from Iran energy infrastructure, I think that there are reasonable grounds to think that they might constitute a war crime. Apparently there was an attack on Iran on a gas field and there were attacks from Iran into a gas complex in Qatar.
- [25:55]
Anne McElvoy
Were you suggesting that each or both sides could have committed a war crime?
- [26:01]
Antonio Guterres
Both sides, I don't see any difference in relation to if we target civilians. It doesn't matter who targets civilians. The targeting of civilians is totally unacceptable. And of course civilian infrastructure like this one is also extremely, extremely serious.
- [26:20]
Anne McElvoy
The Secretary General, what role do you think the UN can play in this conflict? I'm thinking of Iran here, but also you've had the Gaza Israel crisis to deal with as well. Given that the US is really not working in depth with your organization at all. You've said in these extraordinarily dangerous times you haven't had a conversation with President Trump. Do you believe that the UN has been side alone now?
- [26:47]
Antonio Guterres
We are in contact with the United States. We are in contact with Iran. We are in contact with some key actors. I mean the Arab countries of the Gulf, with the European Council, where I just was. My main objective is to see if it is possible to create conditions in the state of Hormuz similar to what in the past we managed in relation to the Black Sea grant initiatives. Of course, it's a different, different context. It would be a different solution, but we would like to be useful and we are establishing contacts for it, and we are prepared to manage a system, a mechanism in place, because we have that experience and we have task forces created to be able to do it. But, of course, it depends on the will of the parties.
- [27:36]
Anne McElvoy
I wonder what success within the bounds of the achievable would look like for you. Is it reopening the Straits of Hormuz to international shipping within a few days? That seems to be a big pressure point. We've seen other governments come in behind that push. What would you consider from this situation to be the best next development that you could either reality, hope that you would leave Brussels.
- [28:03]
Antonio Guterres
The rest is in the war. And it will be. We are conscious how difficult it will be to have the state of Hormuz open in the context of a war going on. In any case, we will be doing our best in relation to the capabilities, either global or of a humanitarian nature. We had that experience of negotiation in the past, as I said, but we believe it will be very difficult if the war doesn't stop. So our priority, the absolute priority, is to stop the war and create conditions for the straits to be open and to be open without any kind of risk. Because, as you know, the drama is, it's not only the question of the capacity or not to destroy a ship. You have insurance companies, you have shipping companies, you have the seafarers. And if a drone explodes close to a ship, I mean, this creates immediately an environment in which it's very difficult to make things move. So I think it's very important not to forget the central objective. And the central objective is to end the war.
- [29:19]
Anne McElvoy
European leaders have refused President Trump's request to participate in policing the opening of the Straits of Hormuz or sending their own ships or any other materiel to that effect. Do you think that's been the right position? I mean, certainly the position of, say, Keir Starmer in the UK that this is not a conflict he wants to get drawn into. Friedrich Merz says something similar in Germany, and that's pretty much, I think, becoming a majority position among the main powers. You could argue if you want to kick the straits open, more should be done and more could be sent to deterrent effect by Britain, by Germany, by others.
- [30:00]
Antonio Guterres
Well, I'm not convinced that it is the number of warships in the strait that solves the problem. As I said, this is something that can only work if the seafarers, the shipping companies, the insurance companies have confidence that ships can move safely. So this is not only a matter of number of warships around. It's a matter of having or not a war environment in which an accident can happen at any moment.
- [30:28]
Anne McElvoy
So you think Isdama broadly struck the right tone and approach, holding back British support?
- [30:33]
Antonio Guterres
I don't make comments about what the Prime Minister of Britain does. I think he did it in. In his understanding of the best interest of his country.
- [30:42]
Anne McElvoy
Yes, it was. I should say it was. Also today we've seen the leaders of uk, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Japan, in a joint statement calling for the Straits to be open but effectively holding back. The question is, you think broadly restraint is better for these powers who, many of whom have military power. They shouldn't get involved.
- [31:03]
Antonio Guterres
I think these countries made their own reading of the situation and I believe that they took a decision not to get too much involved knowing that the most important objective is the confliction is de escalation and peace.
- [31:23]
Anne McElvoy
Your term as Secretary General will come to an end later this year. The process for appointing your successor is underway, which must be bittersweet after so long on this stage on the international.
- [31:35]
Antonio Guterres
Oh, it's not bitter nor sweet. It's just my duty to do everything I can until the very last day.
- [31:42]
Anne McElvoy
And there is a call for a woman to be appointed as your successor. I think Annalena Baerbock, as the General Assembly President has said that.
- [31:50]
Zoya Shevtolovich
Do you agree and do you think
- [31:51]
Anne McElvoy
Ms. Baerbock might be a candidate, a good candidate?
- [31:55]
Antonio Guterres
Oh, I have no doubt I've had excellent cooperation with her. I mean I will not be part of the electoral campaign, but I can only tell you that I have the best impression about our cooperation and I think she has been an absolutely outstanding person. President of the General Assembly.
- [32:13]
Anne McElvoy
I should just ask you to finish, you know, what you feel you're seeing. We've seen the European countries really trying to figure out the right response here, but there have been some differences. Some have said international law is no longer the best guideline. Ursula von der Leyen said something, I'm paraphrasing her, but along the lines that, you know, may not be the be all and end all anymore. Friedrich Math said something similar. Then we have Mr. Costa saying it's still international law.
- [32:38]
Antonio Guterres
It's very easy to miss misinterpret things. I mean, I was with Ursula van der Leyen today and she was adamant of the need to respect international law, to respect the charter and to have a rules based order. So I think if there is something that I felt today in my meeting with the Council that there was a very strong commitment was to not only international law, but multilateralism and the very solid support to the un and I'm very grateful.
- [33:05]
Anne McElvoy
So you leave this pre Yuko visit in good heart about Europe's future. In this crisis time, Europe is essential.
- [33:14]
Antonio Guterres
I mean we need I'm a great supporter of the idea that power relations must be changed. We cannot live under the the world will not be properly managed if it depends on one single power or if it is divided between two single powers. We need a multipolar, multipolar networked world and we see developed countries, but we see emerging economies and we need to interlink them more and more with trade treaties, technology, forms of cooperation, etc. To balance power in international relations, allowing to create the conditions for multilateralism to be effective. Because the problem of multilateralism today is that because of the reckless behavior of the superpowers, there is no space for multilateral institutions to be able to deliver.
- [34:06]
Anne McElvoy
Antonio Gutierrez, thank you very much.
- [34:08]
Antonio Guterres
Thank you very much.
- [34:10]
Anne McElvoy
And I'll now hand us all back to Sarah Wheaton.
- [34:14]
Sarah Wheaton
Thanks Anne. I'm actually finally off to bed, but if people want to hear more of your interview, they can check out Politico EU for a longer write up. Make sure to subscribe to the Brussels Playbook podcast. That's the feed you're listening to us on right now. Please send questions, comments, even voice notes to us over WhatsApp. You'll find it in our show notes. Thanks to Peter Snowden, Senior Audio Producer. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week.
- [34:41]
Verizon Business / Jackson Hewitt Advertiser
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