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Brussels Playbook Podcast
How not to fall: Behind von der Leyen’s fightback and Macron’s meltdown
00:47:27
While the French government collapses in Paris, Ursula von der Leyen stands unshaken in Strasbourg.
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- [00:00]
Sarah Wheaton
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- [00:32]
Sarah Wheaton
So I'm running super late. This is pretty typical for me. Hopefully I will pass quickly through security. I'm in Strasbourg. I am rushing through the elaborate entrance of the European Parliament to get to a meeting. I chose a stupid door where this one side has to close before the other opens. I came here because this plenary session promised drama. Two motions of censure against Ursula Fonder Lyon. Two fresh attempts to topple the commission president. It sounded like a pretty big deal. We have to get to the seventh floor. And I'm a little paranoid that, like, I'm going to end up in an elevator or I have to have some special badge. So I booked interviews with MEPs all over this confusing complex, trying to take their pulse to see how they'd vote and whether anyone really thought von der Leyen was in danger. Hey, Fonda lion. See that elevator I just tried only goes to the fifth floor. I'm still recovering from a minor foot injury, but ever the devoted reporter, I sprinted, limped and climbed my way through the maze of corridors. That elevator didn't work. I just found some stairs. Hopefully I won't be walking all the way to the seventh floor, but I think maybe I can take these. Okay, I'll spare you the rest of my journey. But as you can tell, we were really trying to sell this story as a high stakes political showdown. Me running, the clock ticking, the drama. But truth be told, that drama never really materialized. The math was never there, the votes weren't close. And even Fonder Lyon's critics admitted these motions of censure weren't actually about removing her. They were symbolic, a show of discontent rather than a real threat. Still, I thought it was worth the sprint to find out whether any of this carries political weight, what it says about power and politics in today's European Union, and whether it hurts Ursula von der Leyen or on the contrary, affirms her image as a European leader, almost a European Prime Minister. I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of EU Confidential. So before we dive into the Strasbourg drama that wasn't, let's head 500 kilometers west to the French capital, because it was in Paris where the real political earthquake struck earlier this week when Prime Minister Sebastien Le Cornou's government collapsed barely half a day after it was unveiled. To help make sense of the turmoil, I'm joined by our senior correspondent in Paris, Claya Calcutt. Clea, thanks for being here. It's been a bonkers week. We're talking now, Thursday morning. Can you catch us up in general on what happened over the past week in Paris?
- [03:37]
Claya Calcutt
Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's been a rollercoaster week. What happened is over the last weekend we had a new government. We've had these ongoing problems of Prime Minister's governments falling in France because they can't agree on a budget. So we got a new government over the weekend. But what happened is in a shock resignation. Sebastien Le Cornu, the Prime Minister, stepped down on Monday morning. So that meant that his government lasted only 14 hours. And so we were back to the drawing board. There was a lot of questions about who's in charge here. French President Emmanuel Macron decided to give his action, outgoing Prime Minister Sebastiano Cornu, the job of building a new government.
- [04:19]
Sarah Wheaton
So he just gave him his old.
- [04:20]
Claya Calcutt
Job again, literally gave him his old job back almost. And so he was given 48 hours to basically bring everybody back around the table and try and hash out a plan for the government, for the country, for the budget. That deadline ended on Wednesday. And now we were hoping for some sort of conclusion to all of this. You know, either that we're going towards a snap election or there's a new Prime Minister. But no, we were left empty handed, except that now we're facing a new deadline for the end of the week. And Sebastian Lucullu told us that the President is going to appoint somebody and that he does see some sort of a platform emerging of understanding between the different parties from the sort of center right to the left. That all feels very fragile. And now we're waiting to see who gets appointed next.
- [05:12]
Sarah Wheaton
We want to be honest with listeners that this choice may have been made by the time they hear this episode. But can you walk us through maybe? Who are some of the runners and writers here?
- [05:21]
Claya Calcutt
There are some names that are emerging. The latest name is Jean Louis Bourlot. He's a centrist, but he's unrelated to Emmanuel Macron. And that's seen as an advantage because he would be able to speak to the left and to the right, but at the same time, he won't be seen as a Macron minion, which is something you don't want to be seen as at the moment.
- [05:41]
Sarah Wheaton
And who else might be on the table?
- [05:43]
Claya Calcutt
Well, for the past few days, we've been talking about a possible left wing Prime Minister. This would be somebody probably from the Socialist Party. They, in the last snap election, that was last year, won the most seats, so they feel that they should have their chance at trying to find a compromise. So that would be the head of the Socialist Party who's called Olivier Fard, or the head of the left wing group in the national assembly who's called Boris Valot. Now, the thing is, their price is very high. They want Macron to suspend his flagship pension reform, which raised the age of retirement from 62 to 64. Now, that is a big ask, and that's something Emmanuel Macron will really not want to do, because it was a reform he pushed through, it was painful, there was riots in the street. It's basically his legacy. And so that's one reason why we don't think it might be a left wing Prime Minister. Even though he's running out of options.
- [06:42]
Sarah Wheaton
When you can't form a government, you would usually call snap elections again. Or even, you know, if Macron is so unpopular, who just can't get anywhere, could he step down early?
- [06:53]
Claya Calcutt
Well, that has been the discussion in powers for like the whole week. We're stuck. What's the way out? Snap election or Emmanuel Macron steps down? But what's really quite clear, Emmanuel Macron really doesn't want to go. He said so repeatedly, he's not going to go. You know, we spoke this week to people who know him well. They all say he's obsessed, almost pathologically determined to keep going. He will never, ever give up. Now, a lot of that, we believe, is spin. I mean, at some point, if he can't get a budget through, if he can't get a government, he will have to give in. But I think we're quite far yet from that moment.
- [07:34]
Sarah Wheaton
I mean, if we do have these snap elections, it would be really great for national rally leaders like Jordan Bradella and Marine Le Pen.
- [07:40]
Claya Calcutt
Absolutely. Because polls say that they would get a lot more MPs in parliament and so therefore they might be close to being in a position to actually ask to run a government. It would really push the focus onto them and therefore might provide a sort of stepping stone towards the presidential election for Jordan Bardella, it would be a very good thing because he would emerge as one of the leading figures of probably the biggest group in parliament. And so another boost to his popularity. He's already one of the most popular politicians in France.
- [08:15]
Sarah Wheaton
Jordan Bardella has also been making a huge splash where I am in Strasbourg. He's the leader of the Patriots for Europe group here. And there was this kind of interesting image of him on Monday, you know, racing from national rally headquarters, where they were talking about how to respond to this latest upheaval to then him appearing later in the evening in Strasbourg, leading this Patriots for your motion of censure against Ursula von der Leyen. And ultimately European People's Party leader Manfred Weber said that both Bardella and other French leaders from the left are using these motions of censure as propaganda tools for domestic politics. So did the French public have any attention span for what was happening over in Strasbourg?
- [08:56]
Claya Calcutt
I think it's so peripheral to what the French are seeing at the moment. I mean, it's a tragedy for European politics. But what happens in Strasbourg hardly gets a mention here. The focus is very much like on France and butter issues, budget, how are we going to survive? What about the debt? Are we going to have an economic crisis? That's a real focus. However, what's been going on in Strasbourg has had some echo here because it's really part of the sort of very radical policy and strategy of the far right at the moment. After years of trying to become more respectable, wearing ties and suits and appearing to be the reasonable people in the room, they've now adopted much more hardcore, radical, anti establishment platform. And what Bardella is doing in Parliament reflects what Marine Le Pen and himself are doing here, which is saying we need a total change of the system. Von der Leyen has to go, Macron has to go. The European Union needs completely reshaping. You know, all of this is one big picture of them really pushing this kind of anti establishment stance at the moment.
- [10:09]
Sarah Wheaton
Okay, well, we'll leave it there and crossing our fingers that this conversation manages to survive for the next 24 hours. So, Claya, thank you so much.
- [10:17]
Claya Calcutt
I hope so too. Bye.
- [10:21]
Sarah Wheaton
That strategy of France's National Rally that CLEA was mentioning was on full display this week here in Strasbourg. It was Jordan Bardella himself who presented one of the motions against Ursula von der Leyen. We'll get more into that a bit later, but first I want to get a sense of the broader context for these motions of censure, like how they've been used over the years and what their true political might is. For that, I spoke to Sophia Rusak, a senior researcher at the center for European Policy Studies. Okay, so let's look back a bit at this as a tool. You know, these center motions, they kind of remind me of, like, the impeachment process in the US where it's theoretically this tool that lawmakers can use in a case of serious misconduct, but hasn't actually been used to oust anybody. Although in the commission, there was a squeaker. It almost happened once, right?
- [11:11]
Sophia Rusak
True. No, but I think it's very important to remember that indeed, this tool, this instrument, was never designed to send the Commission home for political reasons. It really was designed. And this is also why the thresholds are so high, 2/3 majority of all MEPs, to not reach it that easily and to only really apply it if there are serious cases of misconduct, fraud, nepotism, and so on. And indeed, you're right. This was once the case in the sontay Commission in 1999. Technically, the Commission stepped down before the parliament could issue this motion of censor, but the necessary majorities would have been reached. The core issue was actually only one commissioner, and there was a French one, Edith Cresson. And she. There were multiple things that went wrong, but, you know, one of most famous examples was that she hired her, you know, hometown friend and dentist. So nepotism, you know, she hired people that were not fit for the job in positions in her cabinet, for instance, and I think also elsewhere in the commission.
- [12:03]
Sarah Wheaton
And then that wasn't the last sort of scandal that emerged. And there was the junker commission in 2014, faced some pressure after the Lux leak revelations.
- [12:12]
Sophia Rusak
That was a very, very different case. I mean, in the Santer case, it was really. That was a proper, good example of how to and when to issue a motion of censor, because there were cases of mismanagement with Juncker. What happened was that Nigel Farage with his uke party, tabled this motion saying, basically, okay, you have been prime Minister of Luxembourg at a where, you know, lots of member states lost money in alleged tax avoidance schemes. That was their argument. But most of MEPs did not support this motion, and it did not cause any kind of hiccup. And I think that is important to say that since 72, there was the first time one was triggered until today. You know, we have now, what, 53 years and 15. That will be the 15th time. And all of these times so far, except for the Santa case, did not cause any serious trouble. And a lot of them, by the way are triggered by the far right. The far right has discovered this as a tool for them to make their voice heard on a specific issue, but mostly towards their national constituencies. If you read in the news, you know, just on a regular basis, that there is again, emotion of censor. You do get the feeling that something's wrong, even if there's not. Or maybe if you don't really understand what's going on, it doesn't matter so much. You know, it's just the repetition that makes you, you know, get the feeling of something's. Something's off.
- [13:36]
Sarah Wheaton
Indeed. Ev, we certainly saw that play out this week where both on the far right and the far left, it was French politicians who were really the face of these latest censure rounds. But just help us imagine this alternate Twilight Zone reality where, let's say meps did vote in favor of the motion of censure against Ursula von der Leyen and her commission. What would happen next?
- [14:00]
Sophia Rusak
So indeed this will not happen, but let's just imagine it would. The European Parliament has only the right to send home the whole Commission, so they cannot pick and choose, not even the president.
- [14:09]
Sarah Wheaton
Does that trigger a new European Parliament election? What happens?
- [14:13]
Sophia Rusak
No, because the European Union is not a full fledged parliamentary system. So this motion of censor would not trigger a new parliamentary election. The parliament would stay in place. But what would happen is the ball would be played into member states court again. First, the next commission president has to be appointed by the European Council, so the heads of state and government and then has to be elected by the European Parliament. And then after that, the member states would come forward with their proposals for their commissioners.
- [14:40]
Sarah Wheaton
And okay, so let's go back into the real world reality. In July, when von der Leyen faced her first no confidence vote, you called it a proxy war. Can you tell us a little bit more about why you saw it that way? And did you see the second round also in that same frame?
- [14:56]
Sophia Rusak
So I called it a proxy war back then because the reasons that the far right tabled were not why they actually tabled it. The far right did not care about faizergate, let alone about accountability and transparency. You know, they care about making trouble. And that is exactly the same now. I think they're better organized. So last time it was, you know, an individual from the ECR and then others, you know, signed up. But now it's the group of the Patriots for Europe. I think they professionalize their stance, but what is behind is exactly the same. But then the difference is, of course, that we have two at the same time. And they both come from the fringes and the left. I think it seems to me that they're a little bit differently motivated than the far right in a sense that, of course, they're also anti establishment. Right. I mean, for them, it's also to be voicing their discomfort. But then again, my feeling is they are a bit more serious on the actual topics that the motion is tabled on. You know, so for them, the commission's in action in Gaza and also the trade deal with the states as well as Mercosur. These are really deep seated issues of concerns for the left.
- [16:03]
Sarah Wheaton
As a point of fairness. Actually, at our episode on her first censor motion, we interviewed MEP George Piperia, the person who put forward the motion of censor. He said he was quite offended by von der Leyen, accusing him of being sort of a Russian tool and that he sincerely is concerned about her abuse of power on things like Pfizer Gate. But he did also acknowledge that he wanted to take advantage of this rupture within her centrist coalition. And so that brings me to your point. These motions of censure, are they harmful to her because she has to go defend herself? It puts this message in the air that there's something wrong with Brussels, or is it helpful to her in the sense that, you know, it reinforces that she's the one in charge, she's the one being tested?
- [16:47]
Sophia Rusak
No, I think it's harmful. We see the effects of this in a sense that the support for her is dropping, the support for her as expressed in the numbers of those that reject the motion of censor. So the thing that we will be watching is the trend line, the support for her and her commission expressed in MEP votes.
- [17:09]
Sarah Wheaton
That was Sophia Ruszak, and she's right. The final vote count is something founder Lyon herself will be watching very closely. When she came to Strasbourg, she listened to carefully to her critics, including Jordan Bardella for the Patriots for Europe and Manon Aubry from the left. They accused her of a broad array of failings reflecting ideological differences and complaints about her leadership. Today, we're not actually going to delve too deeply into the substance of their claims. We're more interested in the censure motion as a tool for political pugilism in this increasingly polarized Parliament. So as as part of a once unprecedented process that is already starting to feel pretty familiar, Von der Leyen took to the floor to defend her record.
- [17:54]
Claya Calcutt
The point I'm making here is that we are in a period of maximum.
- [18:00]
Sarah Wheaton
Uncertainty and explosive volatility.
- [18:03]
Claya Calcutt
This chaotic and threatening landscape was the.
- [18:05]
Sarah Wheaton
Reason I started my State of the Union address by saying, Europe is in a fight.
- [18:12]
Claya Calcutt
And it is why on that day.
- [18:14]
Sarah Wheaton
I made a pitch for unity. Today I want to reaffirm my commitment.
- [18:18]
Sophia Rusak
To work with all of you to keep that unity.
- [18:22]
Sarah Wheaton
Her speech lasted seven minutes, and compared to July, when she faced her first no confidence vote, she sounded different, much more conciliatory. Yes, she mentioned Russia's Vladimir Putin several times, warning against his attempts at to sow division in Europe. But this time she didn't call the motion signatories, Putin's stooges. She was nice and understanding.
- [18:46]
Claya Calcutt
Of course, I know there are some.
- [18:48]
Sarah Wheaton
Of you who are still unsure how.
- [18:51]
Marie Toussaint
To vote later this week, but who.
- [18:53]
Claya Calcutt
Are also concerned about some of the.
- [18:55]
Sarah Wheaton
Issues these motions mention in passing.
- [18:59]
Marie Toussaint
I know that they come from a place of genuine and legitimate concern.
- [19:06]
Sarah Wheaton
Manfred Weber, leader of von der Leyen's own European People's Party, spoke after her. He's usually in high attack dog mode against the Socialists, but even he seemed relatively subdued, mainly training his fire on the far ends of the political spectrum. He said that the Patriots for Europe and the Left group should just merge and create one party called waa. We are against. He also dismissed these motions as merely proxy battles for France's domestic politics.
- [19:37]
Claya Calcutt
The second time in a few weeks. I have to say it is becoming a little bit ridiculous. A motion of censure is a serious tool for a parliament, an important right to defend the democratic Europe. Currently, this last resort of a parliament is being misused by you as a simple propaganda tool. And I hope you have collected enough video material now for your French campaign, obviously taking place here.
- [20:01]
Sarah Wheaton
Everything that followed made clear that Von der Leyen was never in danger. Aracha Garcia, head of the Socialists, and renew's Valerie Ayele both said they valued stability over chaos. And even though they might not be super happy about Von der Leyen, their groups won't support the motions. The Greens, however, were a different story. The group's leadership has been trying to to maintain some influence with Von der Leyen and other centrist parties. But some of the group's rank and file think it's time to be part of a more vocal opposition. The French Green Delegation, for example, said they'd break away and vote against Von der Leyen. One of them was Marie Toussaint, so I decided to ask her why. We met at the MEP bar, which is fortunately easy to find, though you need to be accompanied by a lawmaker to get in. You'll hear my conversation with Marie Toussaint right after a short break. Stay with us.
- [21:06]
Claya Calcutt
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- [21:33]
Sarah Wheaton
At the Home Depot. So back in July, you and the Greens did not back the motion of censure. Again, Ursula von der Leyen, but this time, and we're speaking right before the vote. The day before the vote, the group seems split and the French delegation says that it will vote to topple the Commission. What's changed for you?
- [21:59]
Marie Toussaint
Well, first of all, we never vote for the central resolutions or any amendments or proposals from the far right because it's quite clear for us that we need to keep this cordon sanitaire. On Thursday, we will have two different votes. One on the motion of censure for the far right, which we will all of us vote against, and then one from progressive voices that are calling on the Commission to change course, basically which we would support. But just to have it clear from the start, this motion of censure won't get adopted. There is no construction of a majority behind. So it's merely a signal. And a signal. So then a call for Sullivan der Leyen to change course, but also for man Fred Weber and epp that this can no longer continue as it goes.
- [22:44]
Sarah Wheaton
Now, do you think that she has influence over him or that he just kind of does what he wants?
- [22:50]
Marie Toussaint
The reality of European political life is that the Commission, it is the one initiating new laws. So Manfred Weber as such cannot initiate any single law proposal. He can only speak. Ursula von der Leyen is the only one with her College of Commissioners be able to put new laws on the table. So the movement of the regulation, for instance, that we're seeing each time she puts a law on the table in the cycle, especially on environmental issues, then she perfectly knows that there is going to be the backup of EPP and the far right to dismantle everything that has been done not only during the Green deal, but also since Junker and sometimes even since the 90s. But of course, what we see Manfred Weber doing here is going further than Ursula Ben Dali. And this is why I'm saying this vote is a signal not only to her to Stop opening new laws that she knows are going to be destroyed, but also really to him and his group to say, stop blackmailing us with the threat of making alliances with the far right, whether you do it and we are in your opposition, or we can work constructively with you, but that means that you need to stop blackmailing us.
- [23:59]
Sarah Wheaton
But von der Leyen and even some Green colleagues of yours, such as Terry Reinke, they argue that in times of geopolitical turmoil, Europe needs to show unity rather than trigger institutional crisis. I know that you say that you're not worried that this motion would actually succeed and you're just sending a signal, but is it dangerous to show a signal of lack of unity?
- [24:19]
Marie Toussaint
I would say that the responsibility is on Ursula Vanderlan and Merchand Weber, really. Because if they want to. Wanted to have a strong alliance, coalition with the progressive forces, then we would be in another kind of discussion. But it's not true. They say it, but it's not true. And we see it more and more clearly every day. They bear the sole responsibility of making it work. And as long as they don't make it work, then I don't feel any responsibility for the unity.
- [24:48]
Sarah Wheaton
You know, Is there anything von der Leyen could do concretely to. To regain your trust?
- [24:53]
Marie Toussaint
Actually, yes. Well, she could first stop deregulating the Green deal. For instance, we have the deforestation law that was supposed to be working last year already they postponed it once. They now threaten not only to postpone it, but also to weaken it. She could refrain from doing that. We have, for instance, the Merkoso agreement will be highly hurtful, painful to European agriculture. So all of this they could stop doing. I guess she cannot change the commission like that with a clap of hands. But we could have a gesture, maybe rather like we just saw on the steel, for a European preference, for instance, for pursuing the ecological transformation that aims also as sovereignty, so consuming less fossil fuels rather than promising Trump to buy a lot of US lng. So a lot of possible things are in front of us, but they have to choose what we tried to do here. And that's what we did not initiate this motion of censure. But it's really to find the levers, the right levers to make them come back to the progressive sides, to the pro European sides, to the humanist side, to the, of course, the Green side of politics. That is really difficult in a very difficult moment.
- [26:05]
Sarah Wheaton
Yeah, it's a really interesting point that you make about the levers. So my question is, the Greens have been part of this sort of platform or coalition, whatever you want to call it, that's sort of this pro European kind of governing group. Do you still see it as possible for the Greens to be part of that, or does it make sense for you to see yourselves more as really an opposition force?
- [26:26]
Marie Toussaint
We want to work on every single file in order to get the best possible compromise, not to let them deregulate the Green deal without having a word to say. That's really hard work, I have to say, but I don't consider that we are fully part of the governing parties, but at the same time, we have a foot for the door.
- [26:46]
Sarah Wheaton
Thank you so much.
- [26:47]
Marie Toussaint
Thank you.
- [26:50]
Sarah Wheaton
It was, she told me, a signal, a symbolic gesture rather than a real attempt to topple von der Leyen. So next, I wanted to check in with the Socialists. They also say they're losing patience with von der Leyen and seem to share Toussaint's frustration with what they called the EPP's political blackmail. But the Socialists have been critical of abusing emotion of censure as a tool. So I wanted to know, are they really going to rule it out? Remember the seventh floor I was sprinting to get to? That's where Rene Rapassi's office is. He's a top German Socialist and one with a pretty packed calendar. So, fortunately, I wasn't too late for a good chat. We're talking the day before the vote, and you're a law professor, an expert on EU law, specifically. What's your view on how these motions of censure are being used today?
- [27:46]
Well, they are certainly not used for what they were originally once created, namely as a tool to hold the European Commission to account. This second, let's call it, wave of motion of censures. This is just for the show, but they don't have a chance for any majority. So that's just one big show.
- [28:07]
Well, is the show gonna go on or. I mean, it only takes a pretty relatively small number. Are you worried that we're gonna head towards, like, a Never Endum, as we're calling it?
- [28:16]
Yeah, that's a very good question. Surprisingly, they only discovered it. Now we shall see. We have now a motion of the two extremist groups that we have here in the European Parliament. So if it actually fails, if media is not that prominently reporting on it, I believe those groups will also see it's not really making the same kind of waves as we have it, for example, in France. So that for now, I honestly do not expect an inflation of motion of censures.
- [28:45]
And this time, indeed, S and D is not supporting it. But last time, you know, the message was that the support wasn't unconditional. You wanted stronger social guarantees. So has commissioned President von der Leyen delivered on the promises that she made last time.
- [29:01]
Now, the last time we there was a lot of frustration and criticism that was built up since the moment von der Leyen was elected Commission presidents, it was clear we might not support it, but we will also not support you, von der Leyen. You have to fight for getting us on board. Well, she offered us something which she wouldn't have needed to because the majority wasn't there for a successful motion anyway. But now we are. Three months later, we had a speech on the situation of the European Union in which von der Leyen, at least rhetorically, has shown that she understood now she needs to deliver. One month after the speech, we cannot expect her to deliver, but that's where we are going to hold her to account. There might be in the future an S and D motion. If we do not see that except for nice words, anything has changed, but now is just not the right moment.
- [29:52]
To do so in the future. How far in the future? What would be the trigger for an S and D motion?
- [29:56]
It's hard to say this in terms of time because we don't have a crystal ball to see how the future is going to develop. But I'd say if in a half year's time we see that nothing of the promises in relation to the S and D priorities was implemented, it might be a moment where critical voices might raise again.
- [30:14]
Are you looking at the 2026 work program?
- [30:16]
Precisely. This is the next step that we need in this 2026 work program. Concrete measures at the I also would like to see in the Parliament where there are S and D priorities, that then the S and D is the one who is in the lead on those priorities. And it doesn't bring much if the Commission has a good proposal, which is then killed by a right extremist majority. So there is the one thing that the Commission does, but the other one is what is the party doing to which Ms. Von der Leyen belongs to?
- [30:45]
Well, that actually brings me to my big picture question, especially with the potential for the Council of European Leaders to move farther to the right and the majorities that we see in Parliament right now. How much longer will it make sense for the S and D to remain part of this kind of centrist pro European platform as opposed to becoming a true opposition force in the European Parliament?
- [31:07]
Yes, this is Actually, the decisive question that the S and D group will have to answer. Of course, the European Parliament works differently than national parliaments. We cannot send the government easily home. If a government. So the European Commission has no majority in Parliament anymore. There will be no snap elections, because that doesn't exist here. In that sense, it is more built on the spontaneous sort of majorities. But we do see that any sort of cooperative style with the EPP was not really honored by becoming a reliable partner. With every file, we have to repeat the same kind of exercise. We have to present our requests. The EPP says we have to do it in the platform. Then once you say, these are our requests, the EPP says, but we have an alternative majority. So if you are submitting yourself to 100, then we might actually do this thing with you. Then colleagues ask, but what's the point of being a platform if it's 100% EPP? Then we force each other to a deal because we need to strengthen the pro European forces. And the next, with the next fire, we have Groundhog Day again. And the same story is repeating itself. And frustration grows, and then it needs again a moment where it can explode.
- [32:16]
Yeah, I mean, I see your posture tensing as you talk about this. It seems like you are genuinely frustrated.
- [32:21]
Yes, obviously. Obviously I am. I tend to say that if the EPP wants to continuously work with us, they must tell those who can have easy majorities with extreme right that there's more EPP in cooperation with the S and D than the previous term. Yet we are still in a situation where it is not excluded that the EPP wants to make a deal with the extreme right because they get even more of what they originally want. And that is the frustration in our daily business that whenever the S and dares to speak up for its own convictions, EPP says, I hear you, but, you know, I have the patriots, so just be silent and do what I say. And if this is repeating and repeating and repeating, then this is also not an atmosphere of compromise.
- [33:03]
I mean, we talk about the French melodrama, but there are also a lot of Germans. The Commission president, the head of the EPP group. Is this a Manfred Weber issue? Is this what's going on there now?
- [33:14]
I wouldn't say this is a Manfred Weber issue. Manfred Weber is a very difficult job. The EPP group is rather large. It is very colorful. It's also part of the EPP strategy at the beginning to take in whatever comes there. And then it's, of course, very heterogeneous. And then you have to lead this bunch of fleas. And then of course at times you have to satisfy the one group and the other one. And I think it's in dangers of all of us if we have a leader of the EPP group that is is able to keep this group united and to vote in one line. But whilst I can see this and I can respect it, it does require abilities of rich building to say I use this also in order to advance Europe and not just for the sake to keep my group together. So I think there's a lot of Shakespeare going out there. There's. Maybe we should take the German one also a lot of Goethe, the Young Werther for those that know a bit of German literature. But I wouldn't say it's a German thing.
- [34:04]
Sophia Rusak
Okay.
- [34:04]
Sarah Wheaton
Renee Ghadasi, thank you so much for joining me. And then came Thursday. By the time the day for the vote arrived, it was like people had already moved on. The drama in France was only getting more intense and MEPs had highly divided reactions to the peace deal in Gaza and the detention of an MEP on a flotilla trying to deliver aid to the enclave. Plus a different partisan fight had reached the climax. Socialists essentially caved to center right demands on a major deregulation bill after EPP lawmakers made clear that the alternative would be an even more right wing bill passed with the far right. It was exactly the thing the socialists have been complaining about, but it was clear they weren't going to use the center vote to make their point. But you know, the far right isn't exactly thrilled with this situation either. I checked in with Anders Vistason, a Danish MEP who serves as the vote counter for the Patriots for Europe. Their attitude, we're the third biggest force around here and you shouldn't keep shutting us out. So you're one of the MEPs behind this no confidence motion against Fonder Leyen. Can you just walk me through why you decided to put it forward and why now? Specifically?
- [35:24]
Anders Vistafsen
Specifically I think in every functioning parliament you would say that the leader of the government which from the line has commissioned president more and more is assuming the role of if you can't get your key pieces of legislation through and we are talking about the trade deal with Trump, we are talking about the return directive where we also know that she has a huge problem within her so called pro European majority.
- [35:47]
Sarah Wheaton
This is the migration overhaul.
- [35:50]
Anders Vistafsen
The migration overhaul. When you have that situation, I think it is the role for the opposition to challenge whether the commission president still have her majority behind her and Patriots are the biggest opposition group in this Parliament. And therefore we decided that we thought it was time again to challenge the Commission and her majority. But to be frank, we do know that we don't have the votes to topple the Commission this time. But every time before the S and D, the Renew group, the Green Group, to go down in plenary and defend von der Leyen, which policies they clearly do not support, on key pieces of legislation, we are creating a political dialogue and atmosphere we believe brings Von der Leyen in a more and more fragile position. So that is the reason we are doing it now, and that we of course, also reserve the right to do it again.
- [36:38]
Sarah Wheaton
Indeed, we are discovering that it's actually pretty easy. You don't need that many MEP signatures. So is she going to face this every time?
- [36:46]
Anders Vistafsen
No, it's not like we just automatically decided that every two months we're going to do this. But to be honest, it's not us who is creating the uncertainty behind this Commission president, it is her own majority. And also, to be quite frank about it, the EPP seems more and more schizophrenic. They, on the one hand, wants to reach out informally to us all the time on these big pieces of legislation, using us as leverage to get better deals to the center left coalition, and at the same time claiming from Manfred Weber that they are keeping the firewall. And I think everyone who is looking objectively on this from the outside, the firewall is more a thing in name than in reality, because all the time they are using the right majority to leverage against the center left. And of course, we want this to be a formality. We want to force the EPP to decide whether they want to use it for the good of our common electoral goals, when it comes to strengthening migration policies, when it comes to deregulation, when it comes to parts of the Green deal. And of course, there's also that political course that we cannot just accept the situation where we use that leverage and not being taken serious by the epp.
- [37:51]
Sarah Wheaton
So you're more saying you see this as more of a message to other members of the European Parliament, as opposed to von der Leyen specifically.
- [37:58]
Anders Vistafsen
Of course, we never liked von der Leyen. We voted against it from the beginning. We voted in favor of the censor last time when it was triggered by some ECR members. No, no, we don't see von der Leyen as an EPP figure who can work with the right. But of course, we tell the EPP as a political family. Look outside Germany, look at the many countries where we actually form alliances and do good for the citizens who want center right policies to be carried through. And of course, you could just put forward a Commission president candidate when and if we get rid of von der Leyen, who has not discouraged the possibility to actually make better policies, that is closer to your own political manifesto and will, in our opinion, satisfy the majority of the European electorate.
- [38:40]
Sarah Wheaton
All right. Anders Vistafssen, thank you so much for speaking with me.
- [38:42]
Anders Vistafsen
No, thank you for coming by.
- [38:47]
Sarah Wheaton
Good afternoon. Can I ask you to take your seats, please? Dear colleagues, that's European Parliament President Roberta Mazzola trying to to get the voting started. Now let's come to the votes. We have a motion of censure on the Commission. B10 0400, 2025. Vote is closed. It is rejected. We move to the next motion of censure on the Commission. B1004002, 20, 2025.
- [39:24]
Marie Toussaint
Vote is closed.
- [39:27]
Sarah Wheaton
And it is rejected. So I will notify the president of the Council. Okay, so that was candy. Anticlimactic. After some more mini crises caused by my personal disorganization, I left my phone in the press gallery. I had a debrief with Mark Boateng, a Belgian MEP from the left group. Not only did his group's motion fail, but it had even less support than the one by the far right. He told me he's not at all discouraged. Thank you for joining me. We're speaking just after the vote. How are you feeling?
- [40:10]
Claya Calcutt
I think there's been a move. So first of all, we have seen that if you compare, for example, the speeches and the rhetoric of the president of the Commission, it has changed. She was much more prudent, careful on Monday when she needed to defend her Commission chairmanship. I feel today like if you look at the votes, I mean, she get the majority. So she's protected by a centrist bloc, which I think is worrying that especially groups on the left, the Social Democrats and the Greens, don't have a bigger issue with everything that's been going on in Gaza, for example, where they have been outspoken, but then holding the Commission to account apparently is a bit difficult for them. But at the same time, you know, you can feel that there's a pressure on Ursula von der Leyen. She's seen the polls as well. She's seen that most Europeans want her gone.
- [40:56]
Sarah Wheaton
There was a very surprising poll that came out.
- [40:58]
Claya Calcutt
Well, it was surprising. Not to me, to be honest. You know, I mean, if I go, I'm lucky enough to be out and about Quite often, be it in Belgium, be it somewhere else. Like, I don't meet a lot of people that say, oh, I really like Ursula von der Leyen. So I wasn't surprised when that came out that most people want her gone. But of course it's about policies. It's about policies. And so we're going to keep on pushing on the policies that we want changed.
- [41:20]
Sarah Wheaton
At the same time, we had two votes today and the one from the far right actually outperformed the one from the left. And that was interesting to me because I knew that people on the political left would not support, support the far right one. But we thought the people on the right, on the far right and on the left would back the one from the left group.
- [41:40]
Claya Calcutt
Well, clearly not. And I think that also shows that the far right wants to get rid of Ursula Vanderlei and to replace her with someone worse. You know, that is what's really going on. They want worse policies. They want a very horrible future. Commission president, we're fighting to say, listen, and our motion was very clear. It was like, you know, we need fair trade policy, we don't want complicity with the violation of international law and we want to address the social and the environmental crisis inside the European Union, you know, so this was very clear. And clearly these things the far right does not have an issue with. So I think it shows a pretty accurate picture and it also shows that we are clearly on the opposite side of the far right because some centrist politicians, you know, they're unable to defend thinking of Manfred Weber, for example, you know, but others as well saying, you know, you can see the far left and the far right acting together Now, I think basically this vote shows it's the opposite. You know, we have very clearly different projects. We see that EPP has been flirting with the far right over the last months. So what you can see today is that basically, you know, the far right comes with a project that is, has only really one strong opponent and that is on the left.
- [42:44]
Sarah Wheaton
Given though that A, kind of everybody knew that both these motions would not succeed and B, especially with the Council actually moving even further to the right potentially, there is not really a chance that we would see a more left leaning Commission president even if these motions succeeded. So why put them forward?
- [43:03]
Claya Calcutt
Oh, I disagree with that. You know why? I mean, we've seen over the last months, and let me take the Gaza issue as an example. We have seen at the very beginning, Ursula von der Leyen went to Israel and said, you know, you have our UNCONDITIONAL support, publicly forgetting international law. She then said, no, but I mentioned it, of course, at some point, but. And we came where recently she, in plenary here came to say, well, we'll take some measures against Israel. I mean, or we'll propose some measures against Israel. Now, this is a massive shift. Now, this shift happened without a change in majority, without a change in composition of the European Parliament, without significant changes in national governments. So what happened was basically that we articulated, thanks to the fact that we insisted time and time again on what was going on in Gaza and on EU complicity with this, and people started mobilizing and you saw these mass demonstrations, you know, in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Italy, recently, Spain, other countries, which basically put such a pressure on the commission that they were forced to move, you know, to step back from their initial position and to say, oh, no, we need to do something. We come under international pressure, but also domestic pressure. So I believe that this motion of censor is one of the elements in creating this movement. And if it would have succeeded now, obviously from the left, that would have given also an impetus to, you know, we need to mobilize, we can push further. But I think it's already the fact that she needs to take a step back. Compared to July in the rhetoric, it. It shows that public pressure does pay off.
- [44:33]
Sarah Wheaton
It sounds right. You're saying like, you know, you're pretty pleased with the impact of this push for a motion of censure. Do you see the left using this tool more often?
- [44:42]
Claya Calcutt
It's one of the tools that we can use. Again, I don't think you need to do it every month. That's not the objective. You know, it's something that you do responsibly. But in a strategy of saying, listen, these policies need to change.
- [44:53]
Sarah Wheaton
Okay, leave it there. Thank you so much.
- [44:55]
Claya Calcutt
Thank you very much.
- [44:58]
Sarah Wheaton
Von der Leyen herself wasn't in Strasbourg on Thursday. She was back in Brussels giving a speech to celebrate the Global Gateway Europe's initiative to invest in infrastructure in poorer countries. Yet the bridge building she needs to do is closer to home. It's clear meps don't want to make these no confidence motions a regular thing, but they're happy to keep the thread dangling there. And that's it for us this week. Given how things have been going, I'll be lucky if I can make my trains back to Brussels. If you haven't already, please press the follow button on your favorite podcast app, rate us and leave a comment or send us an email at podcastolitico Eu thanks to Deanna Stirrus, our senior audio producer, to Abigail Frison, our trainee. And to Ann McCall, POLITICO's head of audio. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week, I hope.