← Brussels Playbook Podcast
Brussels Playbook Podcast
Two transatlantic power brokers on why Europe should step up on Iran and double down on Ukraine
00:36:30
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- [00:00]
Sarah Wheaton
Chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or
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Anne McElvoy
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Sarah Wheaton
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- [00:07]
Christia Freeland
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Sarah Wheaton
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Christia Freeland
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Anne McElvoy
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- [00:56]
Sarah Wheaton
Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-844botox to learn more. Here we are. Welcome to the very first edition of the Brussels Playbook Weekender. I'm your host, Sarah Wheaton. If you've looked at your podcast app and thought, hang on, this looks a little different. Yep, you're not going crazy. New name, new artwork, new music you're hearing right now. But don't worry, underneath the repaint, it's still the same Friday deep dive into Europe, the people shaping it and the ideas driving it. For this debut episode, our colleague Anne McElvoy takes us to the Copenhagen Democracy Summit. She sat down with Kristia Freeland, economic advisor to President Volodymyr Zelensky and former deputy prime Minister of Canada, as well as John Bolton, former national security advisor to Donald Trump. Indeed, her conversations touch on Donald Trump as well as Ukraine, the war in Iran, transatlantic security, and what Europe might need to prepare for next. Here's Anne
- [02:06]
Christia Freeland
Christia Freeland. How many years is it since we first met? In fact, I can tell you where we first met because I was visiting Kyiv, where you were a correspondent from Moscow and you showed me around Kyiv, which I think ended up in a quite lubricious dinner.
- [02:20]
Anne McElvoy
Yes, I was gonna say we may have been overserved.
- [02:24]
Christia Freeland
We were overserved. That is exactly right. But and then I remember we learned a lot at the time we from talking to you about Ukraine. Well, now I'm going to try my really bad Ukrainian on you because I know yours is extremely good. Skilky Rokov. Skilkism. Tak Tak. Yes. I feel that the accent was wandering a little bit towards my Moscow background. You are in your current role now, an advisor to President Zelenskyy. So you get to use your excellent Ukrainian. Since the beginning of the year, fifth year of the war with Russia, a lot of attention distracted internationally to the war in the Gulf. How do you see the conflict in Ukraine at the moment?
- [03:07]
Anne McElvoy
In general terms, I always take care to point out that while President Zelensky has formally appointed me to sort of give me standing, it's an unpaid volunteer role, I don't work for Ukraine. I have no executive authority, and I certainly don't speak in the name of Ukraine. But I follow closely what's happening, and I think that Ukraine is surprising people right now. People, you're quite right, are not paying that much attention to the war because of Iran. But the reality is, I think Ukraine right now is winning. There was a view put forward partly by people who were interested in this being true, that Ukraine's defeat was inevitable and it was just a matter of time, that this was a war of attrition, that Ukraine was losing, and that it was just a question of how long before Ukraine surrendered because Russia was sort of inexorably, steadily advancing. I think that was probably last year, kind of the conventional wisdom. And I think what we're seeing now is that that is just not true. Ukraine is successful right now on a couple of fronts that people did not expect. First, on the battlefield. Ukraine has invented a new way of fighting. I think the future of war is being created in Ukraine, and Ukrainians are the leaders in innovation, particularly in drone war. And as a result, everyone was expecting a Russian spring offensive. The Ukrainian have held the Russians to a standstill, maybe even push the Russians back a little bit. The second thing that is critical is deep strikes. We've now seen Ukrainian deep strikes on Russian military sites deep inside Russia. 1500 kilometers inside Russia, We've seen deep strikes on Russian refineries. President Zelenskyy, when he announces these to Ukrainians, he calls them our sanction policy. And the Ukrainian view is that this is how Ukraine is sanctioning the Russian economy with its deep strikes. The third thing that has really allowed the first two to happen is Ukraine is making its own weapons. It is not only inventing new ways of fighting, it's inventing new weapons and has figured out how to manufacture them. So for all those reasons, I really see momentum on the Ukrainian side right now.
- [05:57]
Christia Freeland
Doesn't all of that, however, show that the prospect of any diplomatic solution is as far away as ever? I mean, it's got to be better news that Ukraine has been able to stabilize, to be able to take back a degree, perhaps of territory and some control in a conflict that is threatening Ukraine. But in the bigger picture, it does seem to be that the days when we were talking about how you would get to a ceasefire, you know, so they seem to you now just to be irrelevant or in the past?
- [06:28]
Anne McElvoy
Well, actually, no. I have always thought that the limiting factor in this war, the, the reason the war started in the first place, the reason the war continues, is Russia. It's not Ukraine that needs to be pressured or convinced to not have the war. The Ukrainians would love for the war not to be happening. The problem is Putin and Russia. And I have always thought the only way you end the war is putting pressure on Putin. And the Ukrainians are doing that very effectively.
- [07:04]
Christia Freeland
Back in Kyiv, domestic politics with a lot of upheaval. Indeed in the last days and week. The Ukrainian state anti corruption watchdog charged Andrew Yermak, former very powerful head of President Zelensky's office, with corruption and money laundering. Very, very close figure to President Zelenskyy for a long time. How damaging do you think this is for the president, for Ukraine's reputation?
- [07:31]
Anne McElvoy
Well, I'm not in Ukraine and I'm not a Ukrainian domestic political analyst, but I will say two things. The first is President Zelensky domestically seems to me to be in a very secure position. Ukrainians really even like, you know, a lot of people will say to me whether we like him or not, and a lot of people really do like him. But even the people who may not recognize that he is the country's war leader, the country is at war and he needs to be supported. And you see that in opinion polls, you see that in the behavior of Ukrainian politicians, of Ukrainian people. And I think that shows a real political maturity in the country. Second thing I would say is Ukraine's democracy and its very active civil society. It can look messy the way all of our democracies look messy, and it can make you think, wow, like this messy democracy, where everyone is arguing, where there are newspaper stories criticizing everyone, where people go out on the streets if they're unhappy about something, where there are anti corruption investigations, surely that is going to make a country weaker. I think that what we're actually seeing with this war is something that we citizens of longer established democracies maybe tend to forget which is democracy as a form of social and political organization. It's not like a luxury good. It's not like, you know, dessert or a nice new dress or something. We don't just have it because it's pleasurable or fun. Democracy as a form of social and political organization actually is the most effective form of political and social organization. The reason Ukraine, although it has a much smaller economy, a much smaller military, has actually held Russia to a standstill is because it is a democracy.
- [09:45]
Christia Freeland
The point really is not so much about the raucous democracy of Ukraine, which I think is well made. But you know, here we do have the anti corruption agencies for a while, seem to be finding their work quite difficult in Ukraine. We do need to sort of ask ourselves where the revelations about Yema lead, if they lead close to whether or not civil society is backing Volodymyr Zelenskyy. At the moment, there is not prospect of immediate elections. Isn't it time for candid friends like yourself to be able to say to Zelenskyy that this has not really been particularly good look for him and this sense that he tolerated corruption close to him. He may have absolutely clean hands himself.
- [10:27]
Anne McElvoy
I actually think we need to see the work of the Ukrainian anti corruption agencies as a sign of Ukraine's health rather than of Ukraine's illness. Those agencies are domestic Ukrainian agencies. This is Ukraine investigating itself. And the reason that it took a
- [10:50]
Christia Freeland
while, it did take a very long time to work its way through the system, sure.
- [10:54]
Anne McElvoy
But it actually happened. And what I find so significant is that Ukrainian people, even in wartime were prepared to go out on the streets to ensure that those agencies were active people holding their government to account. That is how democracy works. And I think that it's actually fantastic.
- [11:17]
Christia Freeland
But doesn't it make fast track accession to the EU more difficult? Because that was basically one of the big factors that was put out there early on that would make it difficult for Ukraine to get where Volodymyr Zelenskyy again iterating. I think the last days that he thinks this is overdue. You know, he's been quite sort of scolding with European leaders. I think he's a bit impatient about that. Isn't he effectively been hamstrung by corruption in his own inner circle?
- [11:41]
Anne McElvoy
No, I completely disagree. I mean, I think that it is absolutely the case that rule of law anti corruption is really, really important for Ukraine and it is quite rightly important for the EU in its conversations with Ukraine. But most of all, it's important for Ukrainians themselves. I mean, the pressure on the Ukrainian government to have a rule of law society to clean up corruption is coming first and foremost from Ukrainians, and the war has made that social pressure stronger.
- [12:19]
Christia Freeland
You gave a lecture recently talking about the Trump administration's dwindling support for the, the fight against Russia, and I think you're hard at work in a book about that as well. You castigate a J.D. vance, the vice president, and Pete Hexith, the Defense secretary, for celebrating the administration distancing itself from Ukraine, putting itself more than on the one hand, on the other sort of positioning. You said it was a betrayal of all that's good about America and its best values that have stood for 250 years is that you just unleashed now that you're not in government in Canada anymore. Is that dealing with the difficult neighbour? Or when you say those things, do you think, well, in some way this will make its way through into the mind of the administration, the danger being that it just riles them.
- [13:09]
Anne McElvoy
I think what America needs from us right now, America's historic friends and allies, is tough love. There was a period when I think people thought, oh, you know, let's just flatter these guys, let's appease, let's kind of, you know, try to avoid the eye of Sauron and maybe it will be okay. I think what America's partners have recognized is that doesn't work. There's a saying in Russian that eating increases the appetite, and I think appeasement strengthens and empowers a bully. We risk for the Americans normalizing their behavior. We risk permitting their behavior. And that applies to this administration, but it applies to Americans more generally. And, and if what they get back from their allies is smiles and nods, they're going to think it's okay. And what I think we need to be doing is thinking about what happens in 2028, and do we want in America, not just the president, but the whole country, to think, well, we slapped our allies around a bit. Those wretched Europeans, they hadn't been paying enough for defense. Now they've started to, that's a good thing. Maybe what those guys do need is, you know, a little bit rougher handling. If we do not think that that is an acceptable way for allies to treat each other, we have to tell the Americans that. And if they're not hearing it from us, why should we expect them to ever behave differently? But the second point quickly on Ukraine and the US that I would like to make Anne is related. But part of this sort of process of self justification that's going on is some supporters of this administration are starting to say, well, actually it's been great that the administration hasn't been supporting Ukraine. It's actually been this incredibly cunning jiu jitsu move that has forced both the EU and Ukraine to man up and to take care of themselves. And so actually it hasn't been a betrayal. It hasn't been that the administration has been had a thumb on the scale for Putin. It's actually been a clever way to get the Europeans and the Ukrainians to do the right thing. And that is appalling. It's going to be very important, I think, going forward to be clear about who was on the right side of history.
- [15:58]
Christia Freeland
Okay, well, let's talk about that in a different context. Actually, it still links to Canada's relationship with the US and beyond. We've seen Mark Carney hailing Canada's strategic partnership with Beijing when he met with presidency in January President Trump there this week. Obviously, we'll see what comes out of that. It does seem quite odd when we're in this European context in some ways where we're defending democracies and those who are having to stand up to them, where China is also a malign actor, very much active and proactive indeed supporting Russia in the war with Ukraine. And yet you have Canada's leader. I mean, he's, you know, a stereotype that must be quite irritating. But let me use it. You know, Canada preaching all these great values in the world, stand up to Donald Trump, et cetera. Oh, and by the way, we also now have a leadership that frankly is sucking up to China for trade reasons.
- [16:52]
Anne McElvoy
So, Anne, I am now speaking for myself and I personally am a China hawk. As finance minister, I impose tariffs on Chinese steel, aluminum and EVs. As foreign minister, I honored our extradition. Well, I was part of a government that honored our extradition treaty with the United States. Maybe in part because of my experience in the Soviet Union and former Soviet Union. I don't have any illusions about how communist regimes behave. And when we deal with China, I think it's easy for us to think about the Chinese leadership reading Milton Friedman, but I think we should remember they also read Marx and Lenin and Mao. And I think those lessons are the more important ones. So from my perspective, one of the tragedies of wondering whether we call it a froidure, whether we call it a rift in the relationship between the US and its traditional allies, allies is it makes it that Much harder for us to develop a collective position when it comes to China.
- [18:07]
Christia Freeland
Do you think Mark Carney has bent too far in the direction of Beijing with his rather warm strategic partnership language?
- [18:15]
Anne McElvoy
Mark is the leader of my country, he's the leader of my party and he's my son's godfather.
- [18:22]
Christia Freeland
Well, in that case you can definitely
- [18:24]
Anne McElvoy
speak your mind and. But he's walking very careful, very fine lines right now, where I think the real problem is.
- [18:33]
Christia Freeland
But if you disagree with him, you would within a reasonable conversation be able to say so, because it sounds like you do disagree on China.
- [18:39]
Anne McElvoy
Where I think the real problem is what we need right now is a collective front of the democracies when it comes to China, a collective position. And what is really hard for, maybe not for the eu, it might have enough heft, but apart from the eu, for every other country in the world, it is very challenging to stand up to China. And so we get a collective action problem. And I really think that the non western democracies working together could develop a smart policy towards China, a policy that is about de risking, a policy that gives us less strategic vulnerability, that makes the world safer. But it's very hard to do without the United States being part of that effort and without the United States being ready to support its partners. If the US doesn't come back firmly onto the side of the good guys of the democracies, all of us will be poorer and weaker. It will be. We shouldn't have any illusions. It will be very, very hard. Every democracy in the world without having the US at the heart at the center of that alliance.
- [20:14]
Christia Freeland
You're in the middle of a book. What's the title?
- [20:18]
Anne McElvoy
Unreliable. It's working title, but something along the lines of Unreliable Boyfriend. An insider's account to dealing with an unhinged superpower. Something like that.
- [20:28]
Christia Freeland
Now tell us what you really think. Christja Friedland, thank you for joining me on Brussels Playbook Weekender.
- [20:35]
Anne McElvoy
My pleasure.
- [20:39]
Christia Freeland
And we'll be back in a moment with John Bolton to hear more about the uncertain outlook for the war in Iraq. Own
- [20:49]
Anne McElvoy
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- [21:16]
Christia Freeland
The fragile ceasefire in the Gulf and President Trump's warning that it's on massive life support has roiled the oil markets and sent jitters around European capitals, fearing the conflict with Iran could resume with untold consequences. Someone who's long argued for a robust approach to dealing with the Iranian regime is John Bolton, US national security adviser during President Trump's first term. Welcome to Weekender with me, John.
- [21:44]
John Bolton
Glad to be with you.
- [21:45]
Christia Freeland
We will come on to the big events going on in the Gulf and Iran in a moment, but I wanted to start with President Trump's much trailed visit to China because China is really in the backdrop of so much that is going on in terms of the geopolitical strains, talks about how that is to go ahead, and also technology and its role with the administration in Washington and here in Europe. How well do you think European leaders have been handling that unpredictability about the relationship with China? How are you reading it?
- [22:21]
John Bolton
Well, I think in European circles the relationship with China has been almost entirely economic for a long time worried about their access to Chinese markets, what the Chinese are doing in Europe, particularly in automotive areas, and really not so much on the strategic level. And I think that is going to be a growing issue because the real threat to the west as a whole in the century is the China Russia axis, which has been forming. It's certainly far from finished or perfect. But Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin both say they call it a partnership without limits, which is a pretty enormous possibility when you think about it it. So while Europeans worry about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, they worry less about China's role supporting Russia. And they don't worry so much about the potential Chinese attack on Taiwan, although I think the things are increasingly linked together. And I think the war in the Gulf right now with Iran is with a principal Russian Chinese surrogate. So these are things that in I think the proper strategic view are closely related. But I'm not sure that Europe as a whole thinks beyond the North Atlantic.
- [23:35]
Christia Freeland
Just challenge on that. Don't know what will come out of this rapprochement or talks between President Xi and President Trump, but taking a lot of very senior business people with him. Is it possible that actually Europeans are really beginning to harden their line on China, particularly on technology and in some areas also on in electric vehicles, in areas where Chinese technology could perhaps end up being a bit of a Trojan horse for less of welcome imports, to put it that way. Is it possible it flips around that we see a softening of the position over trade in the US that gives away perhaps even on the Taiwan question more to the US Than the Europeans will be comfortable with.
- [24:19]
John Bolton
It's always an unknown with Trump. I think people on Taiwan are extremely worried that he's going to say or do something because of his ignorance of the framework of US Relations with Taiwan. That will be a big propaganda victory at a minimum for Xi Jinping. And the fact that he's taking a lot of high tech CEOs with him makes people worried he's going to give away something that really should remain either under sanction or prohibited to China. For Trump, everything is a deal. That's what life is about. In his first term, he wanted the world's greatest trade deal with China. He didn't get it. It he might like it again this term. It isn't going to happen at this meeting because so little preparation has been done. But the idea of making concessions is always close to Trump, especially when he doesn't think he's giving anything away or he doesn't understand it. And that's where the risk could be.
- [25:10]
Christia Freeland
Let's turn to Iran and Europe's response to the war in Iran led by the US And Israel. What was your response to Chancellor Merz of Germany criticizing the president over the war in the way that he did? He turned into a quite forthright position against Donald Trump over the conflict. There's now the reprisal of the threat of 5,000 US troops being withdrawn from Germany, but who were there also with huge logistic support for Europe's defenses. Your view?
- [25:44]
John Bolton
I think Trump made a big mistake not consulting European NATO allies before the war. But that's not all. He didn't consult. It's the way Trump does things. He didn't make the case to the American people what his objectives were, why they were required to use military force. I think there's a compelling case for regime change. He didn't make it. He didn't make the case to go after the nuclear program. He didn't make the case at all. He didn't make the case to Congress, which is a corollary of that. Another mistake. And he didn't single NATO out, not to brief. He didn't brief the Gulf Arab states. He didn't brief American allies like Japan and South Korea that get a lot of their oil and gas from the Gulf. And worst of all, he didn't consult with the opponents of the regime inside Iran before he did so. It was the failure to consult European NATO allies was part of several big mistakes. I think the European response made things worse. It's wrong to say that this is not Europe's war. It is Europe's war. And some have suggested if they were thinking transactionally like Trump, they would have said, okay, we'll help you out now, let's talk about Ukraine simultaneously. But instead, it developed into a kind of schoolyard back and forth with the threat to remove 5,000 troops. Just another schoolyard taught. Now, it is possible that these troops could be moved to Poland. There's nothing sacrosanct about any military deployment changes over time. And it's a long time since the middle of Germany was the front line in the Cold War, which is why there were a lot of American troops there. So I don't object to rearrangement of troop deployments. I do object to it if it's not on a strategic basis, which is what Trump was threatening. It just takes the intra NATO dispute to a lower level than we need to be.
- [27:25]
Christia Freeland
To be clear, you didn't think it was sensible of Friedrich Matz, the chancellor in Germany, to make the comments, the critical comments that he did?
- [27:33]
John Bolton
No, I think Trump is often accused correctly of not having a filter between his brain and his mouth. But just because Trump suffers from that problem doesn't mean others should succumb to it either.
- [27:46]
Christia Freeland
Well, it's funny you should put it that way. I spoke to Kurt Volker, I'm sure you know, who was sending me on the the podcast. We were reflecting on dealing with NATO in his role as a former envoy to NATO and how the Europeans deal with America in difficult times. And he also thought it was a mistake, for instance, for Keir Starmer, for Rachel Reeves as chancellor in the UK to have an unfiltered approach to Donald Trump. On the other hand, you have European electorates. We're sitting here in Denmark. It's still trying to form a government. We know electorates are very roiled by this international situation. They also want their governments to stand up for them. They don't really fancy just being a punching bag of Donald Trump on a bad day, as has happened with Keir Starmer in the UK among his many other problems.
- [28:33]
John Bolton
Well, he may have less to worry about soon.
- [28:36]
Christia Freeland
Also true. But whether it's Keir Starmer, whether it's someone else, it's unlikely that they're going to say, do you know what, actually we got it all wrong. And then we're on board with everything Donald Trump is doing in the Gulf. So is it reasonable, I mean, you know, politics and, you know, the intersection of policy and politics so well, to say to European electorates, you just got to Suck it, whatever Trump throws out at you.
- [29:00]
John Bolton
Well, I don't think that's true. I think in this case, they could have made their displeasure known privately about not being consulted, but then said, we want this discussed in a meeting of the North Atlantic Council pronto. And they didn't do that, as far as I know. I mean, I think Mark Ruta, who's doing an excellent job as secretary general, might have pushed them in that direction. That's where we still should go. There's still a question what will happen in terms of free transit through the Strait of Hormuz once this is over. So there's a lot that could be done here. The main thing is that whenever Trump makes these kinds of mistakes, you can either respond in kind, which probably makes things worse, or you can think strategically and behave like an adult.
- [29:44]
Christia Freeland
Spain's foreign minister Jose Manuel Alvarez, telling Politico this week at an event that he saw this crisis as a defining moment for strategic autonomy in Europe. He was very firm family of that position. The moment he said of sovereignty and independence of Europe. The Americans are inviting us to that conclusion that we need to be free and independent of the US when it comes to really big decisions about the deployment of force and of our own defenses. Do you think he's wrong?
- [30:17]
John Bolton
Yes, he is wrong. And he's also spoken about the need for European Union army army, to which all I can say is good luck with that. It was understood through history as the US after 1945 put bases in Europe which were in NATO countries, and for NATO purposes, it was understood by everybody that those bases were part of a larger global US Transportation network and that they were stopping points for forced projection into the Middle east, into Africa, all the way to Asia. And it was expected that European countries hosting the bases would cooperate with that. It gets rarer and rarer to see that understanding on the European side. If it's a crisis in Ukraine, everything goes. If it's a crisis in Iran, which I would just remind everybody in Europe is closer to Europe than it is to the United States, then suddenly other, other rules seem to apply.
- [31:20]
Christia Freeland
So turning to the Gulf, I think you said in comments this week it was the wrong time to lessen pressure on Iran, the time to increase efforts to destroy the regime. Do you think that that is still possible? Whatever the original aims of this form of the conflict, it doesn't seem to have gone entirely to plan in terms of a surgical outcome. No uprising from the ground, from the street, as far as we can see at the moment. You can argue about how much it's actually achieved in terms of disenabling that uranium enrichment program. And we never heard of the sort of devil's advocate say to you, I know you were in a roundhole, but really you want to keep going at the moment, I mean, all we've got is endless chaos in the Straits of Hormuz, terrible fallout for the global economy and countries, in a way being peeled away from the American alliance because of it. I mean, why do you want to do more?
- [32:11]
John Bolton
Because the threat of a nuclear armed Iran, the threat of Iran, the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism, and the now palpable threat of being able to close the Strait of Horns Hormuz to something this regime in Tehran will never let go of. And that's why for decades I've thought the only way to bring peace and security to the Middle east is get a government that belongs to the Iranian people and not the ayatollahs. Trump has made a lot of mistakes, but they're not fatal. I think the main thing right now is to force the Strait of Hormuz open, which I think we can do and I think should have done earlier in the war. That would relieve the international pressure on the global economy. That really is the main obstacle and take that leverage away from Tehran.
- [32:55]
Christia Freeland
You know Donald Trump well. You served under him. You wrote a book about your time in office. So I don't think he entirely appreciated,
- [33:01]
John Bolton
to say the least.
- [33:04]
Christia Freeland
I'm sure others did, however. And one thing I'm wondering is how you read him over time and his evolution. He said last week the war would be over quickly. Was it to going unbelievably well?
- [33:14]
Anne McElvoy
Do you think he really still has
- [33:16]
Christia Freeland
the stomach for finishing this war?
- [33:18]
John Bolton
Well, I think he's made a trap by his own statements and actions. It's palpably clear, especially to the regime in Iran, that he wants out. But he also knows if he makes a bad deal, he's going to be harmed by it politically in the United States. So he's trapped and he doesn't know what to do. He was hoping he could get negotiations started, at least as of now, that doesn't look like it's going to happen. The trip to China is a big event in his mind. So I think the game is still afoot and he has not made a final decision what to do.
- [33:52]
Christia Freeland
Can we read the mood just on the ground? Since you've been here in Northern Europe and I know you've been following what's going on in the UK and the Drama around the possibly disappearing Prime Minister Keir Starmer, Reggie Matz in Germany also having difficulties at home. What would your message be to leaders like Mercy Starmer at the moment who whatever their party politics, they are defenders of democracy. The theme of this conference, they are strong on Ukraine. Are they now in a position where they need to think carefully about what they do in the Gulf crisis and perhaps change their positions at all?
- [34:28]
John Bolton
Well, I do think this is Europe's war for a lot of reasons, including the threat of terrorism from Iran right here in Europe, which has probably seen more terrorist acts than we've seen in North America. And because global oil prices are dependent on many different places. The turmoil in the Middle east affects Europe's economy just like it affects everybody else's. And to say, well, we're just not going to worry about it I think is self defeating on their part. I think there are plenty of things that could be done that would minimize the tension that's been caused within NATO. I don't think it's too late to do that. It's not like Europe is filled with strong political leaders at the moment moment or that the capability exists that they can handle a number of crises entirely on their own. It was a key Soviet goal during the Cold War to split the NATO alliance. And one reason among many that that didn't work is that we didn't let the divisions come between us. So it'd be a cruel irony if after the Cold War, we did it to ourselves.
- [35:29]
Christia Freeland
John Bolton, thank you very much for sitting down with me here in Copenhagen.
- [35:33]
John Bolton
Died to do
- [35:36]
Sarah Wheaton
that was Ann McAvoy at the Copenhagen Democracy Summit alongside our senior audio producer, Peter Snowden. And that's all we have for you this week. If you haven't already. Do subscribe to the Brussels Playbook podcast to hear from us five days a week and let us know what you think of our new look. Send us a note to Podcastolitico EU or a WhatsApp message using the link in the show notes. Thanks as always to our supervising producer Diana Sturris and to audio producer Saga Rigmar. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week.
- [36:14]
Christia Freeland
Some follow the noise. Bloomberg follows the money. Because behind every headline is a bottom line, whether it's the funds fueling AI A for crypto's trillion dollar swings. There's a money side to every story. And when you see the money side, you understand what others miss. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe now@bloomberg.com.