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Brussels Playbook Podcast
Von der Leyen vs. Trump: Europe answers back
00:39:52
He’s not even European — yet Donald Trump has topped POLITICO’s annual P28 ranking of the most powerful people who will shape Europe in 2026.
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- [00:01]
Sarah Wheaton
Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of Rumchata, a delicious, creamy blend of horchata with rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata. Your holiday cocktails just got sweeter. Tap or click the banner for more. Drink responsibly. Caribbean rum with real dairy cream. Natural and artificial flavors. Alcohol 13.75% by volume 27.5 proof. Copyright 2025, Agave Loco Brands, Pojoaquee, Wisconsin. All rights reserved. Kids. They grow up so fast. One day they're taking their first steps, and the next they don't fit into the tiny sneakers they took them in.
- [00:41]
Carrie Budolph Brown
You blink your eyes and their princess dress is two sizes too small, and.
- [00:44]
Sarah Wheaton
Their dinosaur backpack isn't cool anymore. But don't cry because they're growing up.
- [00:50]
Ursula von der Leyen
Smile because you can profit off of it for real. There are a bunch of parents on.
- [00:55]
Sarah Wheaton
Depop looking for the stuff your kid.
- [00:57]
Ursula von der Leyen
Just grew out of.
- [00:59]
Carrie Budolph Brown
Download Depop to start selling.
- [01:05]
Sarah Wheaton
If it sounds busy, it is. I'm at POLITICO's annual P28 gala, where Brussels political bubble has traded committee rooms for elegant dresses, tuxedos and a healthy dose of nervous diplomacy. EU commissioners, MEPs, diplomats, lobbyists, everyone who matters or wants to is here. The reason? It's the annual celebration of our P28 POLITICO's ranking of Europe's most influential people. So just to be clear, it's not an award. It's a reality check about who will shape the year ahead. This year's number one? He's not even European, of course. It's Donald Trump, and honestly, it's hard to imagine it could have been anybody else. Our P28 list lands at a moment when Europe's political foundations feel like they're moving beneath our feet. And this week, the surface seems to have cracked. Washington published its new national security strategy, describing Europe as facing, and I quote, civilizational erasure. And then Trump, informed that he'd topped our list, told our colleague Dasha Burns in an exclusive interview that we'll link to in the show, notes that EU leaders are weak.
- [02:35]
Ursula von der Leyen
I think they're weak, but I also think that they want to be so.
- [02:39]
Balaj Orban
Politically correct, I think they don't know what to do. Europe doesn't know what to do.
- [02:46]
Sarah Wheaton
It was one punch after another or, you know, the death blow. I mean, we known things were getting bad, but people still had some hope. But this really confirmed that the US Was going from trusted ally to potential adversary. It's left people stunned. Trump's pressure on defense budgets, the bruising tariff fight, his demands on Ukraine to effectively bow to Moscow. Together, they've pushed Europe into a defensive crouch, and we saw the consequences play out in real time this week during one of the most frantic rounds of shuttle diplomacy. While Washington floats a peace plan that Kyiv does not trust, President Zelensky, number 14 on our list, has been racing across Europe. London, Brussels, Rome, meeting a whole cast of European heavyweights. Keir Starmer, Emmanuel Macron, Friedrich Merz, Mark Rutte, Ursula von der Leyen, Giorgia Meloni, all of whom appear on RP28 from no. 2 through no. 19. He also spoke to Antonio Costa and Pope Leo, who aren't on the list but remain key diplomatic players. And what did those talks amount to? Mostly the usual reassurances with few real details about Europe sticking with Ukraine, even if the US And Donald Trump back off. I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of EU Confidential. Later on the show, Hungary, where viktor Orban, number 12 in our ranking, enters a pivotal election year and where, after 15 years in power, his premiership seemed seriously challenged. I sat down with his political director, Balaj Orban, no relation, who offers a very different reading from the mainstream view in Brussels. And on that alleged fraud probe inside the EU's diplomatic service, a story that shook Brussels last week. He didn't seem especially bothered. But first, I'm bringing you a conversation POLITICO's executive editor Kennedy, Carrie Budolph Brown has just had with Ursula von der Leyen, a special guest at our gala for the commission president. It was a chance to publicly respond to Trump's harsh critique of Europe and to share her assessment of whether the American president will indeed be the defining force on the continent in 2026. Let's have a listen.
- [05:25]
Carrie Budolph Brown
Welcome. It's great to have you here, Madam President. I do want to start with a question very much on the minds of the people in this room. Will there be a funding agreement by next week for Ukraine to keep the fight up against Russia?
- [05:40]
Ursula von der Leyen
So we're working intensively towards a just and lasting peace. And I emphasize just and lasting because this peace agreement should be such a solid peace agreement that it does not sow the seeds for the next conflict. Immediately the negotiations about the agreement are moving forward. That is good. And the 20 point plan is taking more and more shape. I think the most difficult topics are, on one hand, the territories. And this is something which can only be decided by President Zelensky and the people of Ukraine. The second most important topic is the security guarantees. These have to be very Robust security guarantees, as I said, they have to make sure that there is a lasting peace. And we always speak about the steel porcupine that Ukraine has to be so that it is indigestible for any potential invader. And the third topic are the immobilized Russian assets, where we are working intensively on to make sure that we can take the cash balances, hand them to Ukraine as a loan for financing for Ukraine for the next two years. And Ukraine has only to pay back these loans if Russia pays reparations. And here we are going a step forward now, tomorrow, for the first step in dealing with this topic, that we will secure the immobilization of the Russian assets, which is an important point because we need the certainty that these Russian assets will work for the reconstruction and the reparation of Ukraine.
- [07:33]
Carrie Budolph Brown
So this development, does that mean that what we'll see is that something around the assets, not looking to the plan B or C of euro bonds, that it is your focus right now is on using those assets and that's what are pushing towards.
- [07:46]
Ursula von der Leyen
So the first step that we are going to take, hopefully tomorrow is indeed to secure the immobilization. That is very important, but because so far the Russian assets were immobilized for six months and every six months we had to renew this immobilization by unanimity. So there's quite a risk that all of a sudden these assets are gone. And therefore the step tomorrow is to make sure that we secure these assets, that the cash balances can work for Ukraine, can fund Ukraine and can be invested in the. In the reconstruction. A second step is then how are we going to use these cash balances? And indeed, as you said, the financing of Ukraine, this is going to be decided in the following week at the European Council. We have quite advanced. It is very innovative. It is qualified majority voting that we have to do there. We have to take into account, and we are working on intensively in dividing or distributing the risks that goes along with that, that at the moment, Belgium is carrying on broad shoulders of the whole of the European Union. But this is a second step.
- [09:06]
Carrie Budolph Brown
What's your level of confidence right now that Belgium will come around? Look to the point of view that.
- [09:12]
Ursula von der Leyen
You'Re pushing day and night with Belgium. I must say it is a very constructive work. This is not trivial. This is absolutely innovative. It's never happened before. And of course we understand the concerns of Belgium and it's just intense work. I think we've advanced quite a lot already and taken in their concerns and respected them in the proposal. But the next days will show whether we come to a final agreement.
- [09:42]
Carrie Budolph Brown
Let me ask you, if the European leaders, if you fail to reach an agreement next week, do you worry that President Zelensky and Ukraine will be forced into accepting a peace deal or some sort of peace deal that is not favorable to them?
- [09:57]
Ursula von der Leyen
I think it is extremely important, as I said, that this peace agreement does not sow the seeds for the next conflict. I mean, we've seen this in 2014 there. We've seen that the peace agreement and the security guarantees were not holding, were not robust enough, and that the peace agreement was only giving time for Russia to regroup, to reorganize. And the next invasion then came in 2022. So this time it is of utmost importance that this peace agreement is for just and a lasting peace. And here the security guarantees play an enormous role.
- [10:39]
Carrie Budolph Brown
I wanted to, you know, you started your most recent State of the Union, State of the European Union speech on a pretty urgent note, saying Europe is in a fight. That you also asked whether Europe had the stomach for the fight and the political will to compromise. You're now three months on. It's been a pretty, you know, eventful, some would say pretty tough three months trying to get to a place where you can keep Ukraine in the fight. So I'm wondering, are your fellow European leaders falling short of what you think this moment demands?
- [11:13]
Ursula von der Leyen
No, the opposite is the case. I mean, if you just go one step backwards and look at the overall picture, the six years now that I'm in office, it started with a pandemic. The pandemic was barely over. We had in 2022, the invasion of Russia. In Ukraine, a severe energy crisis was following. And now we are really focusing laser sharp on improving our competitiveness. We have to have a huge surge in defense we are working on, and we have to reduce our dependency. So it's a whole program. And here, I must say, the leaders for all of us is very clear. None of these challenges or none of these crises could have been managed by a member state on its own. But at 27, that's the fantastic part about the European Union. At 27, we can move mountains. We have proven this with the vaccines, we have proven this with the energy crisis. We are working together intensively on the capital market now to improve our competitiveness, innovation, digitalization, all these topics. At 27, we can move mountains.
- [12:25]
Carrie Budolph Brown
On the Ukraine itself, though, you know.
- [12:28]
Ursula von der Leyen
Your question was focused on, it was.
- [12:29]
Carrie Budolph Brown
About Ukraine, which is here too.
- [12:32]
Ursula von der Leyen
If I may.
- [12:33]
Carrie Budolph Brown
Yeah, please, no go Ahead. No, I mean, that is what I wanted to ask. I was focused pretty on Ukraine. And then how would you sort of explain this inability, you know, to get to this point? We had, you know, Mark Ruta today with pretty urgent words as well, that, you know, Europe needs to prepare for a war with Russia. Do you agree with that, that, that, that you, that this continent is on the cusp of that?
- [12:57]
Ursula von der Leyen
Looking at Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine in February 22 with a goal to take Kiev in three days and Ukraine in three weeks. Yeah, Putin completely failed. Now we are in the fourth year and in the last 12 months he advanced by 1%, 1% only of the territory. So we are in the fourth year of a war of attrition. He's maneuvered himself in Ukraine that had no defense at the very beginning, has withstood thanks to the bravery, the courage of the people, but also the ingenuity, the innovative spirit and the support of the European Union because Europe, over all these years, has supported Ukraine financially. €185 billion, 66 billion of this military support. So this is amazing to see how this country was able to withstood and the unity of the European Union. We should not forget, I mean, it's Russia that invaded Ukraine and the war will be over the moment Russia stops fighting.
- [14:15]
Carrie Budolph Brown
So on that, on the issue of defense readiness, I'm wondering, you know, you've warned that Europe is not quite prepared for the security environment it faces. Obviously you're doing a lot, it's, you know, things to move to that place. I'm wondering how many years it will take for Europe to be fully capable of defending itself.
- [14:35]
Ursula von der Leyen
That's a good question. We have not the luxury of time.
- [14:39]
Carrie Budolph Brown
How much time do we have?
- [14:42]
Ursula von der Leyen
So as we cannot foresee in the future what will happen, I can only say we have an enormous urgency and we have to be faster and faster and faster. And indeed, I mean, if you look at the last year, when it comes to defence, during the last year more has happened than during the last decades in the European Union. For the first time ever, we have a full time commissioner for defence. For the first time ever, we have a white book. But I think even more important is the financing. If you look at the last decade, 8 billion have been invested in defense on the European level. During the last year, we enabled an investment, a surge of defense investment of 800 billion till 2030. And I think the most successful is the 150 billion of the SAFE instrument. It is so oversubscribed by the member states that some are calling for a second safe instrument. So all this, you're right, we do it with enormous sense of urgency, not only for defense, but because we know it is about our freedom, it is about our prosperity, and it is about our democracy that we have to defend.
- [15:58]
Carrie Budolph Brown
So I do want to turn my gaze back to, I think, the United States just a bit and ask you a question. How the EU to bring up our interview with Donald Trump and also the national security strategy that was released last week. How is the EU responding to a new US Strategy that's aimed at, quote, cultivating resistance on this continent to the eu? How do you respond to what is now a US Policy towards the EU and the continent?
- [16:29]
Ursula von der Leyen
Look, in general, it is not on us and on nobody to, when it comes to election, to decide who the leader of the country will be, but on the people of this country. That's very clear. That's the sovereignty of the, of the voters. And this must be protected. This is one of the reason, for example, why we have proposed the democracy shield now, because this is a phenomenon that we see all over the place, that we really have to shield our democracy and make sure that elections are fair and free. That's the crown jewel of our democracies. This goes in general for anybody. It's the voters who decide who is the leaders. And nobody else is supposed to interfere without any question.
- [17:19]
Carrie Budolph Brown
It's kind of remarkable to talk about the democracy shield when I ask a question about the United States. How does that sit with you, hearing what you've heard this past week, the critique of the leaders of this continent?
- [17:31]
Ursula von der Leyen
You know what I always think, I have always had a very good working relationship with the presidents of the United States. And this is also the case today. And from the bottom of my heart, I'm a convinced transatlanticist. But what is so important important is that we position ourselves, that we take pride in being the European Union, that we look on our strength and that we deal with the challenges that we do have. And if we keep this in mind, of course, our relationship to the United States has changed. Why? Because we are changing. And this is so important that we keep in mind what is our position, what is our strength. Let's work on these. Let's take pride in that. Let's stand up for a unified Europe. And this is our task. And not always in the mirror of others, but look at ourselves and be proud of ourselves just to that point.
- [18:25]
Carrie Budolph Brown
And I'm now, As you can see, President, I'm now a good three minutes over time. But I do want to ask you before we move on, take us look ahead to 2026. What is the one thing that you absolutely want the commission to deliver on next year?
- [18:48]
Ursula von der Leyen
Well, if I would not be serious, I would say I would love, if the commission enables it, that I have a little bit more sleep. But on a very serious note, if you ask about the commission, then as the guardian of the treaty, it is competitiveness, prosperity, democracy. But if you look at the wider topic there, from the bottom of my heart, I am wishing for peace, peace in Ukraine. I often think of these, of these poor people since four years now, every day, every night, this harassment and this terror that they experience and the incredibly steadfastness that these people have proven. So peace is what I'm wishing for, for 2026.
- [19:38]
Balaj Orban
Okay.
- [19:39]
Sarah Wheaton
All right.
- [19:41]
Ursula von der Leyen
Thank you.
- [19:42]
Carrie Budolph Brown
All right with that. Thank you so much, president of Onderlein, for being here with us tonight. I am grateful for that and appreciate your remarks and sharing your thoughts.
- [19:56]
Sarah Wheaton
That was Ursula von der Leyen in conversation with POLITICO's executive editor, Carrie Budolph Brown. And I have to say, sitting here in the room, it didn't feel like just another gala interview. Yes, we heard assurances. Yes, there were smiles, but there were also uneasy looks and quick glances among diplomats. And from the conversations I've had tonight, the whispered side comments, the messages buzzing on my phone, the mood is clear. As the year ends, Europe is uneasy and Donald Trump is the cloud hanging over every table here. We're going to take a quick break now. I might actually grab a drink. And when we come back, you'll hear my chat with Balaj Orban, the political director to Hungary's prime minister. For him and for Viktor Orban, Trump's growing sway in Europe isn't a threat, it's a chance. As most of Brussels is bracing for trouble, Budapest thinks the wind might be turning its way. Stay with us. At Capella University. Learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success, like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu this is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan. Real United Airlines customers returning home. And one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Kathy and Andrew.
- [21:44]
Ursula von der Leyen
I Got to sit in the driver's seat.
- [21:46]
Sarah Wheaton
I grew up in an aviation family, and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me.
- [21:50]
Carrie Budolph Brown
Of myself when I was that age.
- [21:51]
Sarah Wheaton
That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
- [21:56]
Ursula von der Leyen
It felt like I was the captain.
- [21:58]
Sarah Wheaton
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever.
- [22:01]
Balaj Orban
That's how good leads the.
- [22:08]
Sarah Wheaton
Okay, now onto my conversation with Balaj Orban. He came to the studio last week so before Trump's national security report and his interview. But I think it's safe to say that they were enjoying all of those developments in Budapest. We don't want to keep you from getting to the reason that you're in Brussels, which is the conference on the battle for the soul of Europe. Your prime minister once said that he intends to occupy Brussels and take it back from the bureaucrats. How does that goal fit in with what you're trying to do here?
- [22:42]
Balaj Orban
Well, this conference has a history. Last year there was a big scandal around it because the Brussels authorities wanted to cancel it. And that was a big fight for freedom of speech. So this year it was very important for me to come and participate and support the organizers. And I agree with the, with the starting point of the conference that here in Europe there is a problem within. So if we are not able to put ourselves together and we remain in such pieces where we have social problems, economic problems, leadership problems, geopolitical misunderstandings around us, then we will have a weak Europe.
- [23:26]
Sarah Wheaton
And the news kind of gave you a huge gift. We're speaking just a day after the former EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini and a senior commission official named Stefano Cinnnino were detained for questioning on fraud allegations. Of course, no wrongdoing has been proven. But how is this playing in Budapest and do you expect any political moves in response?
- [23:51]
Balaj Orban
Well, from the Budapest point of view, it's again another sign of double standards. So Brussels and the Brussels institutions are lecturing member states based on disagreements on policy issues, but they portray it as a rule of law problem. And it always turns out that there are serious rule of law corruption related issues in Brussels which are not treated seriously. We, we shouldn't focus on what the democratically elected governments in the member states want. We should actually support these governments, but we should rather focus on what is happening here in Brussels because the leadership problems on the European level are coming from Brussels. And the reason behind it, this kind of fraud based, corruption based technocratic elite, is mismanaging procedures element. It's not just visible for the European voters. But if you talk to Americans or if you talk to Eastern big countries leadership, this is what they see from Europe. And I think, as a European, that this is not something what we should show to the rest of the world.
- [25:04]
Sarah Wheaton
Yeah. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, you were just in Washington with the Prime Minister.
- [25:09]
Balaj Orban
Yes, that's true.
- [25:09]
Sarah Wheaton
The White House. What was the message you were hearing from the Trump administration?
- [25:15]
Balaj Orban
What was the message from President Trump? We were briefly talking about Europe. President Trump thinks that Prime Minister Orban is one of the most successful European leaders, and he would be happy to see more respect for Prime Minister Orban from the European side. But that's a European internal issue. So I think that on a longer term, we would need the new European leadership to stabilize the situation not just around Hungary, but around the big questions, where Europe is heading. The current leadership, unfortunately, is not capable of having a vision, and based on that vision, a realistic strategy.
- [25:55]
Sarah Wheaton
Yeah, I mean, well, how do you think that this new leadership should be brought about? And sort of going back to what we were talking about earlier, there have been talk from some members of the European Parliament already that they want to have a vote of no confidence against Commission President Ursula von der Leyen over this diplomatic services scandal.
- [26:13]
Balaj Orban
Honestly, I think that Europe can only be safe from the member states by strong council leaders. And the biggest problem is that in the biggest European member states, the political situation is extremely fragile. The governments are very weak. This is the case in France, this is the case in Germany. So I think that the pressure from the people's side will be bigger and bigger. And we will need new leadership from the biggest member states, or at least the leadership which has a new strategy which fits into the mindset of the European people. And through the European Council, we will be able to reform the European institutions and tell them that this is the way where the prime ministers want to go. And you are like an elected top bureaucrat whose job shouldn't be that you dictate the policy guideline for the prime ministers, but the other way around. I think the European Parliament itself is not in a situation where it can manage this revival or renewal of the European leadership because it's too far left, it's too federalist and too liberal. And on that basis, the European institutional network in this situation cannot be reformed. So it has to be from somewhere else. Or if we have a new European parliamentary election in 29, that can be a new starting point. But in this current form, I'm a little bit more pessimistic Yeah.
- [27:47]
Sarah Wheaton
I was about to say, though, that that coalition you refer to is under a lot of tension right now because the center right European People's Party has increasingly been collaborating with the Patriots for Europe, the group that Prime Minister Viktor Orban founded. It's now the third largest group in the European Parliament. We've been saying in Brussels that this firewall or cordon sanitaire against the far right has fallen. But, yeah, you're looking at me like you don't feel like this power is growing.
- [28:18]
Balaj Orban
I do feel that the power of the Patriots and the power of the right is rising, and it will continue that way in the upcoming years. I'm 100% convinced on that. What I don't see is that right now, the European People Party, as the biggest party, part of the coalition, they are the ones who are responsible for this badly managed leadership of the European Union. They are the ones who are always voting in favor of keeping this leadership. So I understand that on a lower technical level, some parliamentary decisions are made with different kind of coalitions, but they are the ones who are keeping the current leadership who miserably failed of solving the problems of the European Union. So what we have to do is we have to break, I mean, the Patriots and those parties who are in opposition, we have to break the coalition. And if we are not able to break it during these parliamentary terms, then we have to get prepared and get ready for elections in 29.
- [29:25]
Sarah Wheaton
Yeah, I mean, the question for kind of a growing opposition party is do you start using influence to actually move legislation more in your direction, or do you kind of stay pure, stay very opposed, potentially create gridlock and fuel kind of voters, being frustrated with the status quo? In order to improve your chances in the next election, would you advise to use the power now or hope to have even more later?
- [29:52]
Balaj Orban
I do think that we need to oppose what is going on right now in the European Union, because every day I see the mismanagement, I see the bad decisions, and I see the bad consequences, and I see no appetite, no openness on their side to change this negative course. And if there is no direction shift, there is no chance for us to do something new. The problems and the diagnosis, it's not ideologically motivated, but we need somebody who is. Who is able to deliver. And if the current leadership is not that, we need a new one.
- [30:33]
Sarah Wheaton
We're seeing in general that voters are angry and they're kind of kicking out parties in power. And that actually does bring me to Hungary and the election coming up in 2020. 6. For the first time in many years, Fidesh is facing a serious challenge from Petr Magyar. Policy wise, his Tisa party isn't dramatically different. So they seem to be trying the strategy of fighting like with like. Magyar himself was part of Videsh until recently. So is his rise really about ideas and policies or after 15 years of Viktor Orban in charge, are people just kind of sick of him?
- [31:08]
Balaj Orban
The pressure is coming from Brussels side. Ursula von der Leyen, Manfred Weber and majority of the European Parliament said openly that they want government change in Hungary. So therefore, in the mindset of the Hungarian people is obvious that there are two ways in front of Hungary and they can choose. One way is the Brussels way. And Peter Magyar has a history, but he is the Brussels guy now. He is the one who is saying that we shouldn't cause problems for Brussels, we should be teaming up. It would mean for that government and for that political movement that they would accept everything which is dictated by the Brussels institution. And the second option for the Hungarian people is that they keep the Hungarian way, which means that we don't go into war. Even if Europe wants to go into war. We preserve our freedom and sovereignty and we will not send our money to Brussels or through Brussels to Ukraine. So I think the election campaign will be very tough because Brussels will use all its resources to support the government change in Hungary. But in the Hungarian people mindset, this is not something that like one area.
- [32:23]
Sarah Wheaton
Where Hungary has been quite out of step with other European governments is on Ukraine and Russia. So let's talk about the Prime Minister's visit to Moscow. Why did he feel the need to go? And what exactly was he hoping to get from Vladimir Putin?
- [32:39]
Balaj Orban
We went to Moscow and we went to Washington because we want to make sure that we get access to energy and on an affordable price. That was the most important and we were able to secure it. And of course, as it became public that the two leaders hope that if there is an agreement between the two countries, they can have a Budapest meeting and they can sign the agreement in Budapest. Of course, they are the ones, the Americans and the Russians, who have to agree on the most critical points. But we Hungarians, we try to be professional and open mediator because it's an existential question for us. I think it's very sad that from the European side the only message which is coming is critique, critique, critique. Because like Europe is now frozen. I don't understand why the Europeans are not seeing that there is a significant chance of having an agreement sooner or later. Between the Americans and the Russians about Eastern Europe and about Europe and the Europeans are not even asked. And their outdated strategy that we want to keep pushing that and financing this proxy war, I don't understand why it serves the interest of the European people.
- [34:05]
Sarah Wheaton
I mean, I think what some capitals would say is, you know, a bad deal with Russia will just encourage Putin to, to come after us next after he's rebuilt his forces.
- [34:15]
Balaj Orban
Yeah, sure. But the good deal would bring us long term peace, which is needed.
- [34:21]
Sarah Wheaton
So you think Putin could be trusted?
- [34:23]
Balaj Orban
No.
- [34:23]
Sarah Wheaton
I mean, Hungary has had a very bad history with Russia.
- [34:26]
Balaj Orban
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But this is why I think that there can be a good deal. This is not about trust. These are just power centers. We Hungarians, we do know them. But this is about making agreement with them. And we need an agreement because right now there is no agreement. The post Cold War agreement is broken. Broken by both sides. And I was born in 1986. That was the year where the Chernobyl nuclear power plant was blowing up. My parents, they couldn't give me fresh vegetables and fruits and so on because of that pollution. So we Hungarians, we do know what it could mean for Hungary if there is of war or a nuclear based something in our neighborhood, which is Ukraine. So this is why I'm saying that it's existential for us and the European leadership, they are preparing for a financial package to further support this proxy war method. It cost us a lot of money, didn't bring any result, and wasn't successful in the last years. Now the Americans are out. So it would be only Europe's responsibility to further finance it and we don't have the money. But that's only the first phrase according to their understanding. The second phrase is a potential European Russian direct confrontation starting from 2030. And this is something which is also critical from our point of view. This is something which is, which is a dead end street.
- [36:00]
Sarah Wheaton
So you think that should be avoided at any cost?
- [36:02]
Balaj Orban
That should be avoided at any cost. And this is why we think that our best chance now is a successful American negotiation strategy.
- [36:13]
Sarah Wheaton
All right, kind of lightning round questions at the end. You're the political director, who are some strategists or speechwriters who have inspired you in your, in your approach.
- [36:22]
Balaj Orban
Hungarian politics is, it's a little bit unique. I don't know why. Probably because of the language. The language is, is really isolating us a little bit. So if we're looking for role models, it's very hard because politics is about language. So our role models are mainly Hungarians not well known by foreigners. But what we are doing, I'm 100% convinced and this is why I wrote two books on that issue, Hungarian Way of Strategy and the Hussar Cut. And I'm convinced that if we want to create and represent a reasonable strategy for hungary in the 21st century, we, we can build that up from our historical experiences. So actually everything is decoded in our history, in our geographical location, in our socio cultural background. We just have to rewrite, relearn, rethink, and then it can fit into 21st century.
- [37:21]
Sarah Wheaton
Balaj Orban, thank you so much for being here.
- [37:23]
Balaj Orban
Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
- [37:26]
Sarah Wheaton
Okay, if we had a little more time on this episode episode, we'd also bring you Ann McAlvoy's chat with the UK's Minister for European Relations, Nick Thomas Simmons. He was in Brussels this week talking to Mauro Shefkovic, the Trade commissioner, about all the post Brexit stuff that's still not sorted out. Customs issues, youth mobility, even those travel queues Brits now face when they land at EU member state airports.
- [37:51]
Ursula von der Leyen
So I stood for an hour and a half in the naughty queue at Berlin Airport, where I go free to secretly. But in all seriousness, we had promises good six months ago that E gate access would be made easier. What progress are you making on that? Are you happy enough when you see that?
- [38:08]
Sarah Wheaton
And I don't want you waiting in.
- [38:10]
Balaj Orban
Berlin for an hour and a half in queues.
- [38:12]
Ursula von der Leyen
That's obviously the priority here for the government, right?
- [38:15]
Sarah Wheaton
Absolutely. And if you look at the work that we have been doing, I was in Sofia, for example, earlier in the.
- [38:22]
Balaj Orban
Year, literally opening the E gates.
- [38:24]
Sarah Wheaton
I've done the same in Prague. If you want to hear more, go to our sister podcast, politicsam and Ann's. We'll link to it in the show notes. And with that, it's a wrap for this week's EU Confidential. Being here at the P28 gala has been a reminder of just how much Europe has on its plate next year and how many people are gearing up to shape it. We're taking a break for the holidays and we'll be back on on January 9th. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe to EU Confidential wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a rating or a comment or drop us a line at Podcastolitico eu. As always, thanks to Deanna Styris, our senior audio producer, and to Ann McAvoy, POLITICO's head of audio. I'm Sarah Wheaton. Enjoy the break. If you're getting one and I'm gonna go hit the after party. See you in January. And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Starting a business can seem like a.
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Ursula von der Leyen
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