Who should negotiate with Putin?

Summary

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Brussels Playbook Podcast – "Who Should Negotiate with Putin?"

Date: June 19, 2026
Host: Sarah Wheaton (POLITICO)
Special Segment Host: Anne McElvoy
Guests:

• Zoya Sheftalovich (Chief EU Correspondent)
• Carlo Martuchelli (Trade Reporter)
• Nette Nostlinger (Berlin Correspondent)
• Jacopo Berrigazzi (Senior Defense Correspondent)
• Jeremy Hunt (Former British Foreign Secretary)
• Peter Altmeyer (Former Angela Merkel Adviser)

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Brussels Playbook Podcast explores urgent questions about the European Union’s foreign policy leadership, especially regarding outreach to Russia and negotiations with Vladimir Putin. Set amid a relatively calm summit in Brussels—post-G7 and in the absence of Viktor Orban—the panel discusses a brewing controversy over secret contact with Moscow, the balance of power within EU institutions, and the shifting unity in supporting Ukraine. The episode also marks the 10-year anniversary of Brexit, featuring a reflective interview comparing UK and EU strategies and mindsets from both sides of the Channel.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Russia Outreach Controversy

Timestamps: 02:10–07:52

• Context:
  A leak revealed that an aide to European Council President Antonio Costa reached out to the Kremlin to establish a communication channel without broader EU consultation, sparking internal dissent among member states.

• Diplomatic Fallout:

  • Larger states (Germany, France) feel entitled to lead due to their economic/military commitment to Ukraine and feel sidelined.
  • Smaller and medium-sized countries, conversely, lean toward letting EU institutions handle negotiations.
  • “Basically, the countries were divided on how to approach Russia and who should approach Russia.” (Nette Nostlinger, 04:23)

• Unity at Stake:

  • Zoya Sheftalovich emphasized the danger of unilateral outreach:

    "We cannot be divided... when we have these sorts of outreach efforts which don't have everyone's buy in... you end up seeing these divisions which we saw at the summit tonight." (05:31)

• Question of Leadership:

  • The real debate is “who talks to Putin, not what message to send,” highlighting Brussels’ tendency to focus on institutional jockeying.
  • Jacopo Berrigazzi:

    “As usual with Brussels, one of the issues is that we are entirely focusing on the who instead of the what.” (06:49)

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2. Signs of Renewed EU Consensus on Ukraine

Timestamps: 07:52–08:55

• Point of Unity:

  • For the first time in years, summit conclusions on Ukraine were broadly signed, thanks in part to Viktor Orban’s exit from power.
  • Important decisions include a full-year rollover of Russia sanctions (instead of the usual six months) and progress on Ukraine’s EU accession.

• Quote:

  • Zoya Sheftalovich:

    “The biggest change is that the European Council summit conclusions on Ukraine were signed by 27 EU leaders for the first time in a really long time.” (07:52)

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3. China, Trade Policy, and Germany’s Dilemma

Timestamps: 08:55–11:13

• Summit overshadowed:

  • Trade talk with China—meant to be the main dinner topic—was delayed by Russia negotiations.
  • Carlo Martuchelli summed up:

    "China is basically deindustrializing Europe and we're running out of time to do something about it." (09:28)

• Germany’s Predicament:

  • Wants to act on China but fears economic blowback.
  • Nette Nostlinger:

    “Chancellor Merz knows he has to do something, he has to act. But of course, Berlin is also afraid of possible repercussions by China... so it's not yet clear how far or how quickly it's willing to act.” (10:23)

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4. Looming EU Budget Battles and Election Risks

Timestamps: 11:13–13:20

• Budget Discord:
  • Ongoing conflict between so-called frugal northern states (favoring defense and competitiveness) and countries favoring traditional agriculture/structural spending.
  • Budget deadline pressure:

    "2027 is a really difficult year politically... if there is no agreement by the end of this year, you are squarely in the middle of the French election campaign and you're going to have the budget being used as a cudgel..." (Zoya Sheftalovich, 12:08)

  • Delays risk politicizing the budget amidst European “super-election year."

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5. National Political Tensions: Italy as a Case Study

Timestamps: 13:20–14:52

• Italy:

  • Rise of new far-right actor General Barnacci is already curbing PM Meloni’s flexibility on Ukraine and defense.
  • Coalition instability is affecting Italy’s engagement at EU level.

• Jacopo Berrigazzi:

  “This party with just 5%... is already having an impact on the way Meloni can operate in Brussels.” (14:18)

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6. Brexit: 10 Years On – Reflections from Both Sides

Timestamps: 16:25–32:42

Initial Shock and UK Unpreparedness

• Jeremy Hunt:

  “I did not expect the result... it was a very, very big shock and an even bigger one when David Cameron then resigned.” (17:48)

• Peter Altmeyer:

  “I was not 100% surprised because whenever you call for a referendum... you are in the hand of the voters.” (18:09)
  “We had to accept the decision taken by the British people.” (18:55)

Negotiation Blame Game

• Hunt criticizes both UK lack of a plan and EU’s inflexibility:

  "It's absolutely true that the UK wasn't well prepared, but ... the European Union and countries like Germany also failed to rise to the challenge of the moment." (21:03)

• He argues the EU “punished” the UK to avoid ‘contagion’ and that Germany could have used its weight for a better outcome.
• Peter Altmeyer responds that unity and solidarity within the EU limited Germany’s room for separate deals:

  “Everything we did in addition to the official negotiation position was informal and not public because the European Union had to be united.” (23:31)

On Current EU-UK Reset Prospects

• Both agree a July summit is an important moment for re-setting practical relations, especially in areas like military cooperation and youth mobility.

• Altmeyer:

  "The United Kingdom has been leading in Europe on military and defense in the Western alliance. ... when it comes to student mobility, I would be open to discuss all constructive proposals." (27:02)

• Hunt:

  “It's the wrong time to be reopening the debate over the Customs union and the single market... But I think the EU has to be realistic... the enemy is Putin, it's not London.” (28:46)

• Memorable banter:

  • Anne McAlvoy:

    “I thought you could say the enemy is France for a minute.” (30:59)

  • Hunt:

    “Sometimes you would think that, by the way France approaches this, that their view is that the enemy is in London more than the enemy is in Moscow. And that's where I think we need to just grow up.” (31:03)

• Altmeyer on future cooperation:

  “We cannot always rely on the assistance of our American allies and therefore we... have to organize our defense against President Putin and all the other aggressors that could form a threat for the Europeans.” (32:01)

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Memorable Quotes

• “We cannot be divided... when we have these sorts of outreach efforts which don't have everyone's buy in... you end up seeing these divisions.”
  — Zoya Sheftalovich (05:31)

• “China is basically deindustrializing Europe and we're running out of time to do something about it.”
  — Carlo Martuchelli (09:28)

• “Sometimes you would think that, by the way France approaches this, that their view is that the enemy is in London more than the enemy is in Moscow.”
  — Jeremy Hunt (31:03)

• “We cannot always rely on the assistance of our American allies... we have to put our hands together and we have to organize our defense against President Putin.”
  — Peter Altmeyer (32:01)

• “The enemy is Putin, it is not London.”
  — Jeremy Hunt (28:46)

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Significant Timestamps

• 02:10 — Russia outreach controversy explained
• 04:23 — Division among EU countries over who should negotiate with Russia
• 05:31 — Why unity in communication with Moscow matters
• 07:52 — First unified EU Council conclusion on Ukraine in years
• 09:28 — China’s impact on European industry and trade
• 12:08 — Urgency for EU budget agreement before super-election year
• 13:44 — Italian far-right shift impacting EU-level decisions
• 17:48 — Jeremy Hunt on Brexit shock
• 23:31 — Altmeyer defends Germany’s limited flexibility within EU negotiation
• 28:46 — Hunt on the dangers of divisive negotiations with the EU
• 31:03 — Hunt’s quip about France and core EU division

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Tone and Style

The discussion is candid, brisk, and features playful but frank exchanges. Speakers balance behind-the-scenes observations with direct commentary, maintaining POLITICO’s signature mix of informality, expertise, and inside-the-room journalism.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• EU unity remains fragile and vulnerable to institutional rivalry, with major states sometimes at odds with institutional or smaller-country preferences over critical foreign policy issues.
• The shadow of national political developments—whether in Italy, Germany, or the UK—continues to shape pan-European decisions, especially on security, enlargement, and budgets.
• A decade after Brexit, fault lines between the UK and EU persist, but both sides appear increasingly pragmatic about deepening cooperation in defense and specific sectors, even as broader integration remains unlikely.
• The perceived urgency to resolve long-term EU challenges—especially on spending and industrial competition—is heightened by impending elections and an unpredictable international environment.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Sarah Wheaton]

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[Sarah Wheaton]

It's a Thursday night at the Yuko, so that means we are recording directly from the Justice Lipsius building on Schumann Circle. Usually we're opening these Yuko shows when we're still kind of in a state of shock. Trump has done something totally bonkers. You know, threatening to take Greenland, starting with Iran, and closing a major trade route. It seems like every time the EU has wanted to talk about the big picture issues so crucial to its survival, you know, these crises just keep preventing them from discussing it. But this time around, things seem relatively chill. Trump signed his provisional deal with Iran and in fact, this summit in Brussels is happening just after leaders had a surprisingly productive meeting at the G7. So we should finally be able to get down to the serious business of figuring out how to stand up to China as it floods the EU with cheap stuff and to negotiate how to spend something like 1.8 trillion euros in the EU's next long term budget, right? Eh, never works out like that. So before dinner was even served, Council President Antonio Kosta and his team were embroiled in controversy over contacts with Moscow. Apparently, leaders don't feel like they were kept in the loop. So conversations about that and who should be talking to Putin on behalf of the EU ended up holding up a dinner that was supposed to be about China and trade that didn't end up starting until 11pm Then again, there are some signs that with former Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban gone, the EU is able to come to some consensus.

[Jacopo Berrigazzi]

Sarah?

[Sarah Wheaton]

I'm Sarah Wheaton, host of the Brussels Playbook Weekender podcast, and my colleagues are here with me to help make sense of it after that. And look, this is going to feel for some of you like this is coming out of nowhere. Let me remind you that it has been 10 years since the UK voted to leave the EU. These days, these estranged siblings are trying to patch things up. But let's face it, there are still a lot of hard feelings to reflect on this anniversary and consider what might come next. My colleague Anne McAlvoy brings together two veterans of the Brexit, the former British Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and Angela Merkel's right hand Man Peter Altmeyer. But first, standing here with me are my political colleagues. Chief EU correspondent Zoya Sheftolovich, trade reporter Carlo Martuchelli, Berlin correspondent Nette Nostlinger, and senior defense correspondent Jacopo Berrigazzi. Okay, Jacopo, catch us up. What was this Russia outreach thing that leaders were reacting to?

[Jacopo Berrigazzi]

Everything stems from the informal meeting of leaders in Cyprus recently, where Zelensky at certain point told the leaders that Europe should play a role in talking to Russia. In that moment, the Americans were completely distracted by the war in Iran. And this has set in motion a process that has led to a story that, that was leaked yesterday were, according to which the aide of the present European Council, Antonio Kosta, would have reached to the Kremlin to find the channel of communication. And this has opened a Pandora box at this point, who should be leading the talks? Is this the right moment or not? And this evening, we are facing the impact of, of this discussion.

[Sarah Wheaton]

So it seems like there were a couple different layers. Some countries were mad that they weren't informed. Some leaders now have disagreements about who exactly should be talking to Russia. Nata, what are we hearing from diplomats and others about what the discussion was in the room?

[Nette Nostlinger]

We are hearing that basically the countries were divided on how to approach Russia and who should approach Russia. We know that the bigger European countries, including Germany and France, have very much the feeling that they are the ones paying for Ukraine, contributing to Ukraine, and will also be eventually the ones who are going to give security guarantees to Ukraine in the event of a ceasefire and a peace deal, and that they very much feel the urgency to be at least part of the talks and also feel that they have not been correctly informed by Costa. On the other hand, the middle and the smaller countries seem to be more in favor of an approach by the European institution.

[Sarah Wheaton]

You're saying the smaller countries, the medium sized countries, they're like, yeah, Costa is the guy to be doing this and representing us.

[Nette Nostlinger]

As far as we know from the public discussion in the room. Yes, but also what we know is that many leaders were not very keen on having an open conflict, and that also some talks on the sidelines did happen to make, as they say, their opinion clear.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Okay. And Zoya, what difference does it make, like, who's talking to Putin? Why can't just everybody, whoever wants to talk to him or not, do it?

[Zoya Sheftolovich]

Well, I think it's one of these things where you need a certain degree of buy in from the group in order to be able to have these discussions, because different countries have different Interests. It's really important. Everyone's on the same page. The message that we get from diplomats is, look, we cannot be divided. And when we have these sorts of outreach efforts which don't have everyone's buy in, which don't have everyone's approval, you end up seeing these divisions which we saw at the summit tonight. And you know, there is a general kind of sense of like, why did Koshter feel that this was the time to do it? Everyone keeps saying Russia's giving no indication that they're ready to talk. The kind of Peck argument, the president of the European Council argument is, well, you know, we were just opening a channel as if like they were checking whether the phone number worked or something.

[Sarah Wheaton]

I mean, you know, we good to, good information to have. But I mean, Jacopo, we've seen sometimes that actually Costa has seemed to be kind of out of the loop on these talks. I remember seeing Ursula von der Leyen, the commission president, sitting next to European leaders across from Trump. Kosta wasn't there, and now Kosta is reasserting himself.

[Jacopo Berrigazzi]

Yes, and this is part of the problem here, that there has been a strong competition among EU institutions for who should be leading these talks. And not only among institutions, there were also other candidates like the Finnish president, Alexander Stubbe. As usual with Brussels, one of the issues that we are entirely focusing on the who instead of the what. And the whole discussion would have been probably more constructive if instead of arguing who should do the, they would have started from, okay, what's the message? And then we understand who is going to lead the talks.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a really important point. We, we still don't really have any sense indeed what Europe's posture would be. That said, you know, this is the first Yuko summit now that Viktor Orban is gone, one of the main people kind of saying, I don't want to do more to help Ukraine. And Zoya, you know, we did maybe see a little bit more consensus and a little bit more concrete action on Ukraine this time around.

[Zoya Sheftolovich]

Yeah, I mean, the biggest change is that the European Council summit conclusions on Ukraine were signed by 97 EU leaders for the first time in a really long time. So that's a big change. And I think that signals something that does signal a change in unity. They agreed to roll over the sanctions against Russia for another year. That was a big tick because usually

[Sarah Wheaton]

they're only rolling them over for six months.

[Zoya Sheftolovich]

Yeah. But as of recently, Magyar, the new Hungarian prime minister, has signaled that he'd be willing to do this. And indeed he followed through. And they also even have in the summit conclusions a little reference to the fact that while they celebrated opening the first cluster of Ukraine's accession negotiat to join the EU that they also want to soon open the rest of the clusters, the other five clusters. So I think it's really a nod to hey, we're back in business, we're doing, we're doing all we can for Ukraine and there's no Orban spoiler in the midst, despite the fact that there are a few people who poked their heads above the parapet leading into this summit, like the new Bulgarian prime Minister who is the old Bulgarian president.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Yeah, I think we did expect maybe a bit more fireworks in that department. But yeah, nonetheless, the discussion about China that was supposed to happen over dinner and I should remind people this summit kind of officially started at 6pm the dinner discussion about China didn't start until 11. And Carlo, your trade reporter, poor guy, you've been sitting here for hours just waiting for your part of the summit to start. And you know, even with all your waiting was a bit waiting for Godot. It's not like we were expecting a big payoff during this dinner.

[Carlo Martuchelli]

No, that's right, Sarah. I mean today is really more of a temperature check for Ursula von der Leyen and the European Commission. I mean it is a very big issue, even though it's been overshadowed by Russian Ukraine. But the problem is that China is basically de industrializing Europe and we're running out of time to do something about it. The Commission wants to take a much more assertive and confrontational stance with Beijing. But to do that, it needs the buy in of the EU leaders, first and foremost the German Chancellor Friedrich Merz. So today was meant to be an opportunity for the commission to gauge the willingness of the capitals to endure pain that China might push onto them should this actually evolve into a trade war.

[Sarah Wheaton]

And mette, what is the tension for Germany specifically on this question?

[Nette Nostlinger]

Well, Germany is facing the tension that on the one hand there is this urgency to basically act on China. The German economy is stagnating. The German economy has in the past also thrived very well because of China and because of the big consumer market in China, for example, for its cars. But the tide is changing and now Chinese industry is basically competing with German key industrial sectors. So the tide is turning and Chancellor Matz knows he has to do something, he has to act. But of course, Berlin is also afraid of possible repercussions by China. So they're kind of taking baby steps, looking at what's possible, also indicating they're ready to change, but then at the same time being afraid of what's set to come. So it's not yet clear how far and how far Germany is willing to go and how quickly it's willing to act.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Yeah. So this dinner was really a lobbying exercise for the rest of the eu, maybe to try to get Berlin on board. And we'll see how everybody's doing tomorrow, given how late the dinner's going. There's supposed to be tomorrow a breakfast on migration, and then we're talking the EU budget. And Zoya, you and I actually, on Thursday's Brussels Playbook podcast, talked about the divide between northern frugal countries that want to spend less and redirect what we do spend towards things like defense and competitiveness. And they're opposed to the countries that want to stick with the traditional cash going to agriculture, regional development, the real glue that has always held the EU together. So if that's the tension, briefly, can you just give us some extra context on why it's so urgent to sort out these questions this year in 2026? I mean, this budget doesn't even kick in until 2028. So what's the rush?

[Zoya Sheftolovich]

The problem is that 2027 is a really difficult year politically to do anything particularly risky, because the entire year, basically every few months, you've got super consequential elections happening all the way through. And that's, of course, we've spoken. You and I have spoken about the French presidential election, which kicks off in April 2027, but there's a bunch of other elections as well. I mean, there's Italy, that goes to the polls, Greece goes to the polls, Spain. So it's really some a mega election year for Europe. And the worry that we have in the European Council, which you and I are hearing about when we're sort of strolling the halls here and elsewhere, the worry is if there is no agreement by the end of this year, you are squarely in the middle of the French election campaign and you're going to have the budget being used as a cudgel by either side of politics. So by the far right, by the far left. And that leaves very little room for maneuver. So the idea is, if we don't get a deal now, if we let it get into 2027, when these elections start happening, nothing's going to happen until perhaps October, November, even potentially. And then you've only got a month or two to actually get this thing going and that might not be enough time.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Indeed. And the people helping make decisions on the budget might be, might have a very different perspective, a much more maybe Euro skeptic perspect than the people currently in charge. And Jacopo, that's actually where I kind of want to end things here. We haven't heard as much from her lately in Brussels, but Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni is also feeling pressure back home. Tell us more about that and how it's affecting the way she engages here.

[Jacopo Berrigazzi]

Yes, because there is a new figure coming up in Italian politics. He's a former general, General Barnacci. He has a far right party that is now becoming the novelty in the country and is already affecting the way politics on the center right is played. And so, for example, this has affected the line of another party in the coalition, the League.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Yeah, and we should just clarify, the League is another far right party that is aligned with Giorgia Moloney's hard right

[Jacopo Berrigazzi]

brothers of the coalition member that is also far right and. Yes, correct. And this is limiting her room to maneuver, for example, on Ukraine accession and is also limiting her room to maneuver on European defence spending. And so, I mean, this party with just 5% and with elections that are one year far, is already having an impact on the way Meloni can operate in Brussels.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Okay, yeah, so it's been easy to point to Trump, it's been easy to point to Orban, but this Yuko summit is just really reminding us that, you know, the EU27 have, have plenty of other things distracting them, holding them back, plenty of other of their arguments to sort out. So with that, I will let you all try to get some sleep before tomorrow morning. Zoya, Jacopo, Neta, Carlo, thank you so much.

[Carlo Martuchelli]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Sarah Wheaton]

Okay, we're going to take a break here and then when we come back, I'm going to hand it over to Ann McElvoy for a break. Reflection.

[Peter Altmeyer]

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[Jeremy Hunt]

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[Sarah Wheaton]

And we're back. This Tuesday, 23rd June marks the 10th anniversary of a referendum that, looking back, just might have been the first Sign of the crumbling post war order we talk about so much here. UK voters opted to leave the European Union to chew over its aftermath and look at how efforts to reset the relationship are going ahead of a major summit planned for next month. Here's my colleague, Anne McAvoy.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Thanks, Sarah. Well, joining me to discuss the ramifications of that vote for the EU and for Britain's standing in Europe are two leading figures from either side of the English Channel. Jeremy Hunt served in David Cameron's Cabinet at the time and campaigned for Britain to remain in the eu. He went on to become Foreign Secretary during Theresa May's doomed Brexit deal negotiations and later Chancellor. Jeremy has just published Can We Be Rich Again? Which is about Britain after Brexit. Peter Altmeyer was Angela Merkel's right hand man as head of the German Chancellery and Federal Minister for Special affairs, including during the big Brexit blow up. He went on to become Finance and Economy Minister during the negotiations that followed between the EU27 and and the UK. Jeremy Hunt and Peter Altmeyer, welcome to Brussels Playbook Weekender podcast.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Hi Jeremy, big pleasure meeting you again.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Long time no speak.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Indeed.

[Anne McAlvoy]

We see each other as a reintroduction service on this podcast across many European geographies and divides. So I just thought on Brexit we could start on the morning after where you were and did you expect the result, Jeremy, on your home turf in the uk?

[Jeremy Hunt]

I did not expect the result. You know, I'd campaigned for remain as a loyal member of David Cameron's Cabinet, but this was not the result I expected. So it was a very, very big shock and an even bigger one when David Cameron then resigned.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Peter, you would, I guess, have been around with Angela Merkel the morning after as the result of.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Yes, we had a Cabinet meeting in Chateau Meseberg the day before the referendum and on my way back to Berlin, I learned it was about midnight about the first results and they were really alarming and disappointing. But I was not 100% surprised because whenever you call for a referendum, be it on a European matter or on a domestic issue, you are in the hand of the voters. Democracy and the voter will not necessarily decide what you want them to decide. That's a very strong point. But we had enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty the right of every country to leave the European Union as a sovereign state and therefore we had to accept the decision taken by the British people.

[Anne McAlvoy]

What was Angela Merkel's reaction as you were so close to her, up alongside her the day After.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Well, she was, of course, disappointed because she had managed to establish a very close and good working relationship with David Cameron. So I did with Ed Llewellyn, the Chief of Staff to him. I used to be the Chief of Staff to Chancellor Merkel. And it was not just a bilateral relationship, it was a bilateral relationship between David Cameron, Mark Rutte, Mr. Reinfeld in Sweden and Angela Merkel. And the four of them, them managed to achieve a lot of things inside and outside the European Union together. Therefore, she was a bit disappointed and she knew that things were now no longer in our hands, but in the hands of the negotiators in Brussels and in London.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Jeremy, when we look to the aftermath, I think it's widely accepted that the UK was not well prepared for the negotiations that followed. There wasn't really a Plan B, if it went as it did, a new British leader, in the form of Tresemay, also a Remainer, needed to steer some sort of relationship with continental Europe through what was called the Chequers Plan. Did you think at that point she's got any chance of pulling this off?

[Jeremy Hunt]

I hoped that she would. I was her Foreign Secretary. I mean, I remained Health Secretary until the middle of 2018, so, effectively for another couple of years. And I wasn't really involved in the. The Brexit debates, but then I became Foreign Secretary when Boris resigned and then I. I did get very closely involved and that was when I had the great pleasure of meeting Peter, who I can truly say was one of the wisest people that I met in all my travels across Europe. But I have to say that I.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Peter is blushing down.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, it's absolutely true that the UK wasn't well prepared, but I hope Peter won't mind me saying this, but I think the European Union and countries like Germany also failed to rise to the challenge of the moment, and for two reasons, really. First of all, there was a view across the EU that this was a British problem. The British had been hoodwinked by Boris, the British had been foolish, the British had made a very big mistake that they would regret. And there was no reflection that maybe there were some problems in the EU that had led to this, in particular low economic growth and failure to control migration. And that was why there was no willingness to offer David Cameron the kind of deal that might have potentially allowed him to win the Brexit referendum. But it also meant that when the negotiations happened, the overwhelming perspective was to punish the UK with a very, very tough deal. And Michel Barnier Took a very, very hard line. It ended up with what, using the language of the time was a hard Brexit. And I think that in the end the EU felt from, to me, it felt from the outside that it was in self preservation mode. It was very worried about the risk of contagion, other countries following the UK and therefore it was necessary to follow a very hard line. And I actually believe that Germany, as the most important member of the eu, with the biggest economy in the eu, could have chosen to use its influence in Brussels to have a more constructive negotiation than we had, but chose to step back. And, you know, and I think that was a, you know, for me as Foreign Secretary, that was a source of great regret that everywhere I went they were incredibly nice, incredibly warm, incredibly welcoming. But when it came to actually trying to get the negotiations into a more positive place, there was not willingness to lift a finger.

[Anne McAlvoy]

So, hang on, that's quite, quite a big charge there. You started out getting on so well, you two. That's quite a big charge against the government you served, Peter Altmeyer, and against Chancellor Merkel.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Well, no, I know that the argument, but you have to see, you have to see reality inside eu. Germany was deeply depressed when we learned from the Brexit referendum result. But there were other countries in Europe, and I think you precisely know whom I mean, other countries who were not jubilant, but perhaps not so much disappointed, but thought that now European integration would become easier. What wasn't the case, by the way? And then the issue was, is Germany on the negotiation table negotiating in favor of the UK or are we bound by the common negotiation position? Everything we did in addition to the official negotiation position was informal and not public because the European Union had to be united. And I had many talks with Ed Llewellyn and Angela, had repeatedly meetings with the resume. What we could do without violating solidarity inside the European Union because EU would leave. Theresa May said Brexit means Brexit and we have accepted it. We have accepted it. But that meant that we were now depending much more from other countries in the European Union than before.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Is that a fair pushback there, Jeremy?

[Jeremy Hunt]

I'm just pointing out that I think that everyone was slightly holding their hands up and a bit passive about these negotiations. And I felt very frustrated at the time that that happened. But I also think that there was a lack of humility in the eu. It was all Britain's fault. You know, I think a lot of the challenges that we have in the UK are exactly the same in, in Germany and France. And other European economies. And they led to people deciding that they in particular wanted to have control of their borders. And so I feel that we should have taken a much more strategic approach to reforming those issues. And you know, I now look at Europe and I think the whole of Europe, including the UK is in the slow, slow lane when it comes to economic growth that is immensely damaging. The UK needs to do a lot of things to sort out its economic growth, but you know, I don't see any energy behind implementing the recommendations of the Draghi report across Europe. And you know, to the rest of the world, we're all risking becoming a laughingstock as a result of our failure to fundamentally make the reforms that will unlock economic growth and control migration, which are two very big concerns.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Peter Altmayer, if we look at the state of relations now, Keir Starmer's government, however long it lasts, is currently renegotiating a reset with the EU in certain areas. We have a summit now announced on 22 July. We've been covering that very closely at Politico and I've been talking to both of the partners in that negotiation. Do you think that that is a sign that actually it's got food standards, emissions trading, youth mobility scheme, lots of different things. Some of them might end up trade it away, but something will come out of it. Do you think it's an important step, this summit?

[Peter Altmeyer]

It is enormously. It is enormously important. Of course we depend on the decision making process in the uk but we should be open for that. The first thing by the way, is not enshrined in the treaties. It is military cooperation, the E3. I believe that the European, that the United Kingdom has been leading in Europe on military and defense in the Western alliance. And that would help us enormously if the two leading countries, countries France and the UK would join hands and work with Germany and others together. Second thing is we have in the equi communal a number of fields where the national interest of United Kingdom and the interests of the European Union are parallel. And therefore when it comes to students, when it comes to students mobility, I would be open to discuss all constructive proposals on the table.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Jeremy, that is a quite a fraught area. Interesting what you would have thought of this if you were child's little foreign secretary in a government now, because one of the big kind of stones on the way to this summit happening, which I'm not sure is entirely resolved actually is the restoration of pre Brexit home tuition fees for EU students, which I think has held up the Summit, we had a German source telling us on a podcast that this was still something of an issue. Would you make a concession like that in order, if you like, to get this more holistic sense that we're moving on from Brexit, or are we just back to tricky negotiations with the eu? Britain feels it got a raw deal in some way and it actually makes the mood worse again.

[Jeremy Hunt]

Well, I think this is the wrong time to be reopening the debate over the Customs union and the single market, because I think they would be immensely divisive. And frankly, there are lots of other things that we need to do to unlock economic growth. I just think it's a can of worms. And I don't think there's any appetite either in the UK or actually in the EU to reopen all those arguments. But outside those two, I think it's all a question of how reasonable the EU wants to be. I mean, I think that, you know, what Ukraine has shown is that Britain is a good European country and that I was right when I said as Foreign Secretary, that this is not about Britain leaving Europe and we will continue to be at the heart of Europe when it comes to security, defense and values. And we have done, as has Germany, an enormous amount for Ukraine and continue to do so, and will continue to do so. But I think that it's in everyone's interest to have good trading relations and to break down trade barriers. But the EU has a habit of every time the UK says, could we remove this bit of bureaucracy or that bit of bureaucracy of saying, well, that's going to cost you a billion euros or 2 billion euros or 3 billion euros. And of course, when it does that, it kills the discussion stone dead. And so if there is real willingness to do things of mutual benefits, then I would be absolutely on board. But I think the EU has to be realistic that, for example, the EU is trying to charge the UK billions of euros to take part in procurement programs, where British defense contractors could offer an enormous amount. Britain also has a very big defense budget, which, you know, we, we are open to spending with European manufacturers. We all need to become less dependent on the U.S. but that's basically been blocked because the EU, led by France, is wanting to charge the UK billions of dollars for the privilege. And I think this is the kind of area where I just think we're being very short sighted. I mean, look, the enemy is Putin, it is not London.

[Anne McAlvoy]

I thought you could say the enemy is France for a minute.

[Jeremy Hunt]

But sometimes you would think that, by the way, the France approaches this, that their view is that the enemy is in London more than the enemy is in Moscow. And that's where I think we need to just grow up.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Peter, is Jeremy trying to have it both ways? He seems to be. You sound a lot more Eurosceptic than when you campaign for remain in the rear view mirror.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Well, first of all, I agree with Jeremy that there are lots of issues that can be discussed and decided and both sides should be open to make good proposals. So if the Brits want something, I think you have to explain it also to the European audience. What? You mean what the interest of the entire European Community would be not the Union, but all the Western European countries inside NATO. There are more countries inside NATO, but not inside European Union. And that means we can find common ground. Yes, it's not an easy process because we have this antagonism between the two strong allies who won the first and the second World War of France and United Kingdom. But there is an antagonism when it comes to domestic issues like trade or bureaucracy. But we have to find a way out. We cannot always rely on the assistance of our American allies and therefore we have to put our hands together and we have to organize our defense against President Putin and all the other aggressors that could form a threat for the for the Europeans, be it in the uk, be it in eu.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Was it nice to get you two together again? It's a virtual reunion. I hope it's not the last time. Maybe you get a bit.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Thank you. Thank you for inviting us.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Maybe Brussels Playbook Podcast could buy you a beer together.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Jeremy, whenever you are in Berlin, let me know.

[Jeremy Hunt]

And likewise in London. Peter, I'd love to see you.

[Peter Altmeyer]

Thank you.

[Anne McAlvoy]

Do you see what a service this podcast provides? Jeremy Hunt, Peter Altmeier, thank you both very much for joining us.

[Sarah Wheaton]

And that's it from us this week. But if you're interested in the other big story coming out of the UK today, the results of a small election in Manchester with big consequences for Prime Minister Keir Starmer, do look out for a special edition of our sister podcast, Westminster Insider, which will have a full analysis of that by election in your feed around midday Friday. If you have questions about UCO or Brexit or want to comment on what you heard on this episode, send us a voice note or a message on WhatsApp. You'll find the details in our show notes. You can also always write to us at podcastolitico eu. And while you're at it, please follow rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. The Weekender lives in the Brussels Playbook podcast feed, so subscribing there really helps. Thanks to Peter Snowden, our senior audio producer, who's here with me in Brussels. I'm Sarah Wheaton. See you next week. The Right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver. Whether you DIY it or want a pro to handle everything from measure to install, we have you covered. Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure right now. Get up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus get a free professional measure. @blinds.com rules and restrictions apply.