Zelenskyy vs. Orbán

Summary

Brussels Playbook Podcast: "Zelenskyy vs. Orbán"

Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Zoya Sheftalovich (POLITICO)
Co-host: Sarah Wheaton
Length: ~15 minutes

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into escalating tensions in EU politics, spotlighting Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's urgent calls for the EU to deliver a delayed €90 billion loan—a delay largely attributed to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's veto power. The program features an exclusive excerpt from a Zelenskyy interview conducted by Gordon Rapinski, bringing listeners into critical debates about EU unity, financial support for Ukraine, and Hungary's controversial stance. The episode also covers new EU moves to clamp down on AI "nudification" apps and the emergence of a Belgian "Alterna-Eurovision" protest event linked to the Israel-Gaza conflict.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Zelenskyy, Orbán, and the Blocked EU Loan

[01:18–07:19]

• Zelenskyy’s Dire Appeal:

  • The Ukrainian president is frustrated by persistent delays in the EU’s €90 billion loan, which Ukraine desperately needs for internal production and war-time support.
  • The main obstacle: Viktor Orbán, Hungary’s Prime Minister, is blocking the funds, leveraging the EU’s unanimity rule.

• Not a Ukraine-Hungary Conflict:

  • Zelenskyy clarifies that the dispute is not between Ukrainians and Hungarians but between the EU and Orbán as an individual leader.

    "It's not about Hungarian society. ...The conflict...is not about one reason or another. Because the Prime Minister of Hungary, he blocked all this way of sanctions policy...They never helped us with military support because they have real friends in Russia." — Volodymyr Zelenskyy [02:07]

• Orbán's Alignment with Russia:

  • Zelenskyy accuses Orbán of being an ally to Putin, facilitating Russian interests by blocking weapons and funds for Ukraine but stops short of outright violence:

    "He's standing on the side of Russian leader. He's doing the same, blocking everything for Ukraine. Only one thing he doesn't do today. He is not attacking by missiles...But he's blocking money and blocking weapon, blocking our way to [the] EU." — Zelenskyy [03:34]

• Plan B – A Wider European Problem:

  • If the funds remain blocked, Zelenskyy insists that finding an alternative is not just Ukraine’s problem but a collective European responsibility.

    "We defend not only Ukrainian values. We are defending freedom of all Europe." — Zelenskyy [04:20]

• Challenges with Diplomacy:

  • Communication with Orbán appears strained; invitations from Zelenskyy to meet or discuss have been unreturned.

    "[Orbán] was invited also to visit Ukraine...they want Russian oil. If Ukraine will not transit Russian oil, they will block money. ...If it's...blackmail...we will renovate." — Zelenskyy [05:17]

  • Zelenskyy criticizes a lack of strong European pushback against Orbán’s divisive tactics:

    "I didn't see strong messages from European leaders who can stop this person who is dividing EU." [06:19]

• Analysis by Hosts:

  • Zoya and Sarah observe that Zelenskyy’s forthrightness underscores the depth of EU frustration and also creates awkwardness; EU leaders are likewise frustrated with Zelenskyy for recent comments, some of which have been interpreted as threatening towards Orbán.

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2. EU’s Proposed Ban on AI “Nudification” Apps

[08:26–11:49]

• The Problem:

  • The EU is reacting to scandals around AI tools that create fake explicit images of real people, an abuse termed "nudification."
  • One high-profile case: the Grok AI bot on X generating thousands of sexualized images.

• Legislative Response:

  • EU member states and Parliament are moving quickly to insert a ban into ongoing negotiations about the AI rulebook.

    "They want to prohibit AI systems from generating these deep fakes of real people..." — Zoya [09:30]

  • The focus is on protecting identifiable individuals rather than censoring all forms of AI-generated adult content.

• Political Landscape:

  • Broad support from Social Democrats, Greens, and Liberal groups; some pushback from center-right and some Liberal lawmakers.

  • Enforcement remains a key challenge: defining terms ("sexually explicit," "identifiable") and executing the ban in practice.

    "The EU has always sort of championed itself as this frontrunner when it comes to tech regulation...but these guardrails are often implemented but very difficult to enforce." — Zoya [11:49]

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3. Alt-Eurovision: Belgian Protest Event

[12:23–14:38]

• Backdrop:

  • Ongoing controversy over Israel’s participation in Eurovision (Russia was excluded after invading Ukraine; Israel remains despite the Gaza conflict).

• The Protest:

  • Belgian artists are organizing an alternative Eurovision to coincide with the main event’s first semifinal in May, expressing solidarity with Palestinians and protesting Israel’s inclusion.

    "There are a lot of Belgian artists...who are very angry that Israel is allowed to participate in Eurovision ... they're organizing a parallel event..." — Sarah [12:48]

• Political Fallout:

  • Some countries (Spain, Ireland, Iceland, Slovenia) have boycotted Eurovision, but Belgium is not officially joining the boycott—though many Belgian performers are.
  • Former Eurovision contestants are expected to join the alternate event.

• Bigger Themes:

  • Once again, Eurovision’s attempt at being “apolitical” faces reality, as domestic and international politics seep into the cultural sphere.

    "Eurovision, it's always kind of presented itself as a non political cultural event, but...politics finds its way into Eurovision." — Zoya [14:38]

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4. Brief Update: Madou Tower Lead Water Scare

[14:44–15:11]

• A Lighter Segment: The hosts share a tongue-in-cheek update about lead being found in the water at the European Commission’s Madou Tower offices, poking fun at the perceived prestige of Brussels jobs.

  "We think these commission jobs are so cushy and then it just turns out you're getting slowly poisoned at work." — Sarah [15:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Orbán being Putin’s ally:

  "He's standing on the side of Russian leader...Only one thing he doesn't do today. He is not attacking by missiles...But he's blocking money, blocking weapon, blocking our way to EU."
  (Zelenskyy, [03:34])

• On Europe’s responsibility:

  "We defend not only Ukrainian values. We are defending freedom of all Europe is a big challenge for all of us."
  (Zelenskyy, [04:20])

• On diplomacy and division:

  "I didn't see strong messages from European leaders who can stop this person who is dividing EU."
  (Zelenskyy, [06:19])

• On the EU and tech regulation:

  "The EU has always sort of championed itself as this frontrunner when it comes to tech regulation and ensuring that emerging technologies are safe and secure for people. But the flip side...these guardrails are often...very difficult to enforce."
  (Zoya, [11:49])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:18] — Introduction to Zelenskyy interview
• [01:48–07:19] — Extended highlights from Zelenskyy’s interview (on Orbán, Russia, and EU frustrations)
• [08:26] — Segment opens on AI nudification ban and EU response
• [12:23] — Story launches on Belgian "Alterna-Eurovision" protest event
• [14:44] — Madou Tower lead water anecdote
• [15:27] — Preview of upcoming EU Confidential episode

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Tone & Style

Conversational and lightly irreverent, with Zoya and Sarah blending high-stakes analysis (on the EU’s existential questions) with moments of humor and culture (Eurovision, office anecdotes). The tone is accessible, brisk, and focused on helping listeners navigate complex Brussels politics as news breaks.

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Useful for Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This summary covers the episode’s focus on the Zelenskyy-Orbán standoff and its implications for EU cohesion, major legislative efforts against digital abuse, and cultural-political protests within Europe. Direct quotations, clear attributions, and structured timestamps guide readers through the podcast’s major stories—ensuring a comprehensive grasp of Brussels’ current political currents even if you missed the show.

Transcript

[A]

Today's episode is presented by Amazon. Across Europe, businesses are growing with the AWS cloud to build innovative, scalable products from Europe's largest enterprises and government agencies to the continent's fastest growing startups. Learn more about how AWS Cloud is helping businesses across Europe grow@AWS EU.

[B]

Good morning. It's Thursday, March 12, and this is the Brussels Playbook podcast. Foreign. The vibe in Brussels today is exasperated as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky calls on the EU to deliver on its promised 90 billion euro loan. Also on the pod, the EU wants to ban AI notification apps and Belgian artists are staging an alterna Eurovision. I'm Zoya Shestilovich and with me today is one of our policy editors. Hey, Sarah Wheaton.

[C]

Hey Zoya. You know, you invite me to join you on this podcast and then you don't even show up. I'm lonely here in the studio all by myself. Where are you?

[B]

I'm very sorry. I am in Oslo, in Norway today, Sarah, so thanks for coming in. It is cold, it is snowy and I'm here for an annual conference called Offshore Norge. So that's my lot in life.

[C]

Sounds slick.

[B]

Slick and oily. All right, Sarah. Well, let's go to our first story today. Our colleague Gordon Rapinski from Berlin was in Kiev yesterday and he sat down with President Zelensky himself actually for a really wide ranging interview. And we're going to play our listeners an excerpt of the section where he talks about Viktor Orban and the impact that he has had on Ukraine and its abilities to fight this war and defend itself against Russia.

[D]

You're waiting for the 90 billion loan from the EU, which is not released, particularly because there's a conflict within Europe, but also between you and that person. I'm talking about Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. Now, what happens if you don't get that money released?

[E]

Of course we count on money. We need money for our internal production and I think it is very important for us and for Europe. So it's not the conflict between Hungary and Ukraine, the conflict between Europe and Hungary, and even correctly to say between Europe and Hungarian Prime Minister, because it's not about Hungarian society. So this is not just a conflict. It's not about one reason or another. Because the Prime Minister of Hungary, he blocked all this way of sanctions policy during all this year. He blocked transit of weapons through Hungary. They never helped us with military support because they have real friends in Russia and they are friends, strategic partners. This is where we are, as I said, because Russia is an Enemy. They began this war and they have allies and they have North Korean leader. They have also Belarus. Not even society. I'm about the regime of Belarus. Then they have. It's a pity. They have China, which is supporting there helping them. We understand that they help them in sanctions policy, how to circumvent the sanctions. And of course, Hungarian Prime Minister, he helps.

[D]

You think he's an ally?

[E]

Yes, of course I think, yes. What does it mean to be ally?

[D]

What means to. You stand on that side, you support the post.

[E]

He's standing on the side of Russian leader. He's doing the same, blocking everything for Ukraine. Only one thing he doesn't do today. He is not attacking by missiles or territory and he is not sending his soldiers. Yes, this is only one thing. But he's blocking money and blocking weapon, blocking our way to eu. It's not up to him, because he's one of the leader of eu. It's the question of eu.

[D]

It's a veto principle. So he's very powerful. You must have a plan B. If that money doesn't come. Do you?

[E]

It's a question of security of Ukraine and Europe. That's why. Yes, you're right, but partially we need Plan B. I agree with you, but not we. We and Europe. We all need this plan B. Our European partners and real friends. They know that we defend not only Ukrainian values. We are defending freedom of all Europe is a big challenge for all of us.

[D]

Great diplomacy is probably needed to convince Hungary to unblock the funds. Do you think you have found the right words in the recent days towards Prime Minister Orban?

[E]

It's difficult to say, because we are not speaking. He was invited by me, our country invited. And Slovak Prime Minister, by the way, with him we spoke by phone. I invited him and he said yes, we have to fix this, the date. And then he disappeared. But also Hungarian Prime Minister, I mean this. He was invited also to visit Ukraine. Now the question is that they want Russian oil. As I understood what Euro Commission told me, they want Russian oil. And if Ukraine will not transit Russian oil, they will block money. We have to. In such case, if it's. I don't know in English, blackmail. Yeah. So if it's blackmail. So I said, okay, we will renovate. If EU doesn't have any kind of signals to Hungarian issue and Hungarian messages. So we will renovate. I said it to Euro Commission, but

[D]

allow me to follow up. Mr. President, there are people in Europe who say you reached maybe not the goal that you wanted to reach by insinuating that you would share address of him. And some people say you helped him in his election campaign. Isn't that something that maybe went too far?

[E]

I'm not thinking about his elections. He has long political life. I'm not sure that my messages had influence five years ago or 10 years ago. I think I was not in the presidential cabinet all these years, but he was the prime minister with all his rhetoric against eu. And I didn't see strong messages from European leaders who can stop this person who is dividing eu. So I'm not sure that in this case, silence, diplomatic silence, is very helpful.

[B]

That was super interesting, Sarah. I think the thing that stood out for me from that interview, Sarah, is that Zielinski says that Orban is Putin's ally in this war.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, that's been the awkward thing for the EU as well, is Orban's obstruction has prevented the EU from giving Ukraine the support that it wants. At the same time, EU leaders have not been happy with Zelenskyy lately for, you know, sort of implying that maybe he would send people to go assassinate Orban. And we're hearing these tensions really growing.

[B]

Yeah. And look, I think that frustration goes both ways because Zelenskyy, in that interview with Gordon, was saying, basically, the EU doesn't have its house. And there's been this obstructionism from Orban Orban, who's been campaigning on this platform that's been anti Ukraine ahead of his April 12 election, which he's behind in the polls in. And Zansky is like, listen, this is really problematic behavior. And the eu, despite Orban basically bashing the eu, bashing Ukraine for years has done nothing about it. And the way Zelensky sees it is his people are dying. His country is the last line of defense between Europe and Putin's troops. And Europe just keeps on making these promises, like this 90 billion euro loan saying, yeah, we'll deliver, we'll deliver. And then at the last second, Orban puts the kibosh on it, and there's nothing that the EU seemingly can do to stop him.

[C]

Yeah, it was a fascinating interview. Gordon Rapinski did a great job. It's on the Berlin Playbook podcast. They have a special episode out in English, and you can find a link in our show notes.

[B]

All right, Sarah, let's get to our second story. I'm pretty keen on this one because once a tech reporter, always a tech reporter, which means I am always a tech reporter. It's a fascinating story by Peter Hack. He reports that the EU is considering banning these AI notification Tools, they're these, like, programs and apps that basically take an image of someone online and make them into a fake kind of porn thing. So it's pretty upsetting for the people who have been affected by them. And now the EU wants to do something about it.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd even heard the term nudification before just six months ago. But, you know, we had this scandal where the Grok AI bot on X was letting users generate images of real people in bikinis or in some cases fully nude. Thousands of images were generated. And, yeah, it caused an understandable backlash. And of course, with Elon Musk not always being very cooperative, I think there was pretty big appetite in Brussels to do something about it. So, Zoe, what exactly are our lawmakers trying to ban?

[B]

So there is this kind of move that is being made by member countries and the European Parliament. They're coalescing around some form of a ban. So they're saying basically this is online abuse and the EU needs to do something about it. And basically what they want to do is prohibit AI systems from generating these deep fakes of real people. So it's images or videos or audio that might depict someone's intimate parts or any sexual activity without consent of the people who are being depicted. And the key point here is identifiable individuals. So it's not sort of a ban on generic porn being produced by these tools. It's really about real people. So it's politicians, classmates, colleagues, you know, that's. That's what it's trying to prevent.

[C]

Yeah. We have actually talked about this a bit on the EU Confidential podcast, and we had as a guest, Slovak MEP Veronica Sifrova Ostrichonjeva. She's very active on tech issues, and this actually happened to her during her election campaign. Her own images were sexualized online. It was very disturbing.

[B]

Yeah. And the movement on the EU level is happening pretty quickly at the moment. And that's because we're not looking at a brand new law that's going to be introduced to ban this behavior. We're actually looking at it being being inserted into existing negotiations over the EU's AI rulebook.

[C]

This was just supposed to be a simplification of the EU's AI act, but the commission proposed changes last year. Now countries and MEPs are using those negotiations to push for this additional ban. The political momentum definitely seems to be building.

[B]

Yeah, and it's also building in the European Parliament that's moving in the same direction. There are some divisions there among the different groups and where they stand on it. But there are several committees that have already backed a full ban and several political groups. So the liberals, the Social Democrats and the Greens, who've put up amendments, pushing for this move as well. But there is some pushback from the center right and from some of the other liberal lawmakers who are a bit more cautious.

[C]

Yeah. Ultimately, the wording is really going to matter. They have to define things very carefully. What counts as sexually explicit? How identifiable does the person need to be? And most importantly to your point, Zoya, how would this ban actually be enforced?

[B]

This is the thing. I mean, the EU has always sort of championed itself as this front runner when it comes to tech regulation and ensuring that emerging technologies are safe and secure for people. But the flip side of that is that these guardrails are often implemented but very difficult to enforce and also can really draw the ire from a certain man in Washington. So we'll see what this legislation does. All right, Sarah, let's move on. Let's talk Eurovision. Are you a Eurovision fan?

[C]

Since moving to Europe, I have embraced the. The kitsch and the joy. How about you? It airs in Australia, right?

[B]

Australia. Is Eurovision mad. It is really astonishing to me. Australians have been watching Eurovision for decades and now we participate. But what we're talking about today is not really Eurovision. It's an alternative to Eurovision that Belgium is going to be staging. Right, Sarah?

[C]

Yeah, look, I mean, there are a lot of Belgian artists and performers who are very angry that Israel is allowed to participate in Eurovision. And so in order to show solidarity with the Palestinian cause, they're organizing a parallel event at the same time as the first official Eurovision semifinal in May.

[B]

Yeah. And this is something that has been an ongoing debate around Eurovision for the past couple of years. There have been some countries, those are chiefly Spain, also Ireland, the Netherlands, Iceland has spoken out, Slovenia has spoken out and they've said that Israel should not participate in Eurovision because of what's been happening in Gaza. There have been other countries that have said, well, actually, no, this is a different situation between what is happening in Gaza and what happened in Ukraine because Russia was kicked out of Eurovision after the full scale invasion. And so there's some people saying, you know, this is hypocrisy because if Russia was kicked out, Israel should be kicked out. Other people saying, these are two very different things. Nonetheless, there was this decision made by the ebu. There was a majority of members of the European Broadcasting Union, which puts on Eurovision, who decided that they would reform competition rules but would not exclude Israel. And the response has been that certain countries have said they're not going to participate.

[C]

Well, yeah, so those critical countries you mentioned, including Spain, Ireland, Iceland, they were like, no, we're not participating, but Belgium is not joining that boycott. But some performers are now staging this alternative contest as a, as a protest.

[B]

Yeah. And so they've announced the date now. And look, we've heard that some former Eurovision contenders are also expected to perform on this alternate stage. So it'll be an interesting one to watch. Eurovision, it's always kind of presented itself as a non political cultural event, but as we find so often is the case, politics finds its way into Eurovision.

[C]

Yeah,

[B]

Sarah, you know, our loyal listeners may remember that we had a bit of an interesting one a few weeks ago where we were talking about the heating and water failures in the Madu Tower, which is where the DG Competition offices are. Well, there's an update to that, which is that we've heard that now an email has gone out warning people that there's lead in the water.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, we think these commission jobs are so cushy and then it just turns out you're getting slowly poisoned at work.

[B]

Well, if you've got a story like that, folks, please let us know what's happening in your office building. Send us a text, send us a voice note. The number is in the show notes, as always. That's almost it from us today, Sarah, but can you give us a bit of a preview of what's happening on EU Confidential?

[C]

I am taking this week off at EU Confidential and The great Anne McElvoy is taking over. She is interviewing Norbert Rotgen. He is a key member of the German Bundestag, a key member of the cdu. And we've seen Germany as sort of a growing outlier in terms of reluctance to really call Trump out for waging an illegal war in Iran compared to some other countries. And so I'm hoping that we'll get some insight into their thinking there.

[B]

Thank you very much, listeners, for joining us. Do subscribe, if you haven't already subscribed, rate us. Review us. Tell your friends and everyone else you might know.

[C]

Tell your neighbors, have fun in Norway.

[B]

Thanks, Sarah. I'm going to be freezing my extremities off.

[A]

A message from Amazon. Across Europe, businesses are growing with the AWS cloud to build innovative, scalable products. From Europe's largest enterprises and government agencies to the fastest growing startups, customers choose the AWS cloud to lower costs, increase security and innovate faster. Learn more about how businesses across Europe are growing with the AWS cloud at aws Eugene.