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- [00:05]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
They walk around here like they own the place. And that is the essence of what democracy is not. What I try to do is to make the clear connection between words which are not innocent conspiracy theories, Nazi fascist theorists, hate speech, and the consequences for people.
- [00:39]
James Kanter
Politically. We are in a new world. There are so many more politicians and policymakers from the far right on our TVs, in our social media feeds and in our legislatures. They have a new swagger and an even more conspicuous disdain for their adversaries. As a Dutch member of the European Parliament, Raquel Garcia Hermieda van der Wahle observes, they act like they own the place. Raquel talks later this episode about her recent showdowns with increasingly combative far right lawmakers, from a race baiting Bulgarian to a conspiracy theorist from Hungary. And she talks about how she's looking to coordinate better with other MEPs to counter a European far right that appears to be growing more openly radical as it grows in size. Already, the far right are part of or supporting governments in Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden and soon Austria. In Germany, ahead of February's election, the center right has begun voting with the extremist AFD to restrict immigration. In the Czech Republic, billionaire Andrej Babis, far right Anno party, is on course to win autumn's election. And in France, Marine Le Pen's far right national Rally is topping the polls ahead of elections in 2027. And then there's the EU itself. In the European Parliament, where Raquel sits, the far right now holds nearly 190seats. That's more than ever before and more than a quarter of the Chamber. By way of comparison, raquel's liberals have 77 seats, while the hard left has 46, or just 6% of the chamber. The hard left also has only one group, while the far right has three. That far weightier presence gives the far right a lot more access to funds and a lot more speaking time. And one of these far right groups, the European conservatives and reformists, has even been welcomed into the mainstream. Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission president, has quietly endorsed these European conservatives. Her center right group is free to use them to form majorities. For now, the two other far right groups, the patriots and the Sovereigntists, are being kept at a distance on the grounds that they are too soft on Russia, too stridently anti eu, and too ready to ditch the rule of law. Patriots and sovereigntists also still face the so called cordon sanitaire. That's a form of political firewall, and it means they don't get important parliamentary assignments like chairing committees or taking the lead in writing legislation. In reality, the three far right groups still have a lot in common, from xenophobia to distrust of state institutions and a fixation on free speech. And many of their members are inspired by Trump and Trumpism. Take Spaniard Jorge Boucid Villalba. He's a member of vox, the Spanish ultra conservative party. And he's an admirer of Falangism, an ideology closely associated with Spain's fascist era.
- [03:46]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Now, Trump yesterday said what many of us have been saying for a long time. We need to put an end to climate alarmism and we need to have proper energy. And, you know, there are only two sexes as well.
- [04:03]
James Kanter
Like Trump, Boucid's targets include migrants, transgender people, and climate action. And in the wake of Trump's election victory, Boucoude's tone was distinctly triumphalist.
- [04:15]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
It's over.
- [04:16]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
C' est fini. El futuro es de los patriotas. Gracias.
- [04:21]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
The future is for the Patriots.
- [04:22]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Thank you.
- [04:23]
James Kanter
Bossadegh is now with the Patriots group, but until just last year, he was actually part of the European Conservatives, the that mainstream far right. Jaak Matessen is currently in that mainstream group. And yet Matessen has previously praised Nazi economics, and he's used the term the Final Solution in the context of migration. These days as part of the Estonian Center Party, his talking points include mass firings of civil servants, in other words, dismantling the administrative state.
- [04:57]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
There is not much use of investments.
- [04:59]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
When at the same time we continue with a bureaucracy.
- [05:06]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
We have to let one third of bureaucrats go and then create jobs so we will be able to pay taxes and our budgets will be better.
- [05:15]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Thank you.
- [05:17]
James Kanter
That strongly echoes Trump's attempts to purge the US Civil service. And here I have to ask, do EU officials, those who are happy rubbing along with Madison and his group, do those officials realize that someday Madison may be coming for them? That this leopard, to take a popular expression, might be eating their faces, too? Among far right meps, there's also plenty of fawning over Trump's billionaire advisor, Elon Musk. These meps venerate Musk's determination to use his X platform to say whatever he wants to, no matter how extreme. They say stopping Musk would be censorship, even though Europe has long had rules against hate speech. Take Stephen Nikola Bartolica from a Croatian party that's also in the mainstream far right, which supposedly respects the rule of law. But just like Musk, Bartolica wants to trash the European act that restricts online Hate.
- [06:19]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
By buying Twitter and creating the X platform.
- [06:22]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Elon Buck Elon Musk has raised the freedom of speech on a new level, while the eu, with its act, wants to limit the freedom of speech and.
- [06:33]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Determine what is truth.
- [06:37]
James Kanter
As for that recent Russian social media operation that forced cancellation of Romania's election result, Bartolica doesn't care too much. And rather chillingly, he says he'd cancel other elections.
- [06:54]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Also, the annulment of the elections in Romania shows where this leads. Censorship is not enough. We also have to annul the elections when this is needed.
- [07:08]
James Kanter
Also channeling Trump World energy Sara Canafo of the French Reconquest party. She wants to see the European Central bank kneecapped and the financial system replaced with crypto coin technology.
- [07:24]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Donald Trump is going to create a bitcoin strategic reserve for the United States. What is the European Union doing? People will need to avoid the totalitarian system of the European Central bank imposing a single currency. We don't want this dystopia in a world where the European bureaucrat could prohibit certain transactions tomorrow and eliminate.
- [07:51]
James Kanter
Canafo is the companion of Eric Zamour, the far right provocateur who's previously run for the French presidency. And she's a sovereigntist. So among the unacceptables at the European Parliament. And sure enough, Canaffo's group reliably peddles the ugliest aspects of far right thinking. Muddling up asylum and feminism, for example. To score misogynistic and racist points, here's Ivan David, a sovereigntist MEP from the Czech Republic.
- [08:23]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
If we are interested only in violence against women and not against men, it would help if we stop the influx of uneducated and not well brought up people from abroad to the eu. The same activists who fight against violence against women also promote migration, including migration from primitive areas in certain Muslim countries.
- [08:53]
James Kanter
But these sentiments are not only heard on what is still officially the extremes. Islamophobia and Christian ultranationalism also can be found in that European conservatives group in the mainstream far right. Here's Iadis Iadi from the Cypriot National Popular Front.
- [09:13]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
But before we look what happens beyond our continent, let's see what happens within our borders. Thousands of illegal migrants have filled up every corner of Europe. We have the doubt to protect our national existence, our traditions and our civilization, to give to the next generations a Europe that's proud and Christian and not humiliated and Islamic.
- [09:39]
James Kanter
The normalization of dangerously hateful views has long been underway. Of course, it's a path some liberals and many conservatives have chosen. A key moment came last spring when the centre right European people's party, that's Ms. Von der Leyen's group, refused to sign a declaration to keep the far right at bay. But it's not just politicians making these compromises. There are trade groups, lobbyists and news outlets helping chart a course toward normalization. Cozying up to the far right has become a viable strategy, even an EU career choice. But for many others in politics and in policy and media circles, normalization is not possible. Not now, not ever. But how to respond remains an open question. It's a topic this podcast will come back to a lot this year. Among centrists and progressives, there's talk about the need for a timeout. Time to formulate what they're for, not just what they're against. Time to identify and to respond to voters economic and social anxieties and to win them back to a more humane vision of politics. But not everyone has time to reflect and rebuild. Take lawmakers. They confront the far right every day across the aisle, in debates, in committees. They hear the Nazi slurs. Yet lawmaking their business must go on. Next up, a conversation with Raquel Garcia Hermita van der Waale. She's a first term member of the European Parliament. But Raquel already has a lot to say about how to resist the gathering far right assault on Europe.
- [11:33]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
No migrants. More in.
- [11:35]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
No Europe without Christianity. An alliance also with Russia.
- [11:43]
James Kanter
Welcome to EU Scream, the podcast that guides you through stories coming from the eu. We talk about the news a bit differently and with people who really know what they're talking about. I'm James Kanter. This is episode 112, resisting Nazi era Narratives at the European Parliament.
- [12:08]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
My name is Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waalo. I am a newly elected member of Parliament for Dutch Social Progressive Liberal Party D66 and we belong to the renew fraction. So this is my first stint in politics. I've worked for about 20 years for NGO. So I worked in the States for an environmental NGO. I worked in Spain for a human rights NGO. Animal welfare, conservation, public organizations.
- [12:35]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Like a library, Like a local library in the Netherlands.
- [12:38]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
It's a local library in the Netherlands. I was the director for about three and a half years before the run up to the elections.
- [12:45]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Libraries are so controversial in the United States right now with people trying to.
- [12:49]
James Kanter
Control what's in them.
- [12:50]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Did you ever experience any controversy about what books should be on the shelves?
- [12:55]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
No, not controversy. To the extent that's happening in the United States, we obviously try to support the US librarians in their fight against censorship. What we have seen is pushback by some groups when it comes to organizing activities like readings by drag queens. That's an activity which we develop in the Netherlands or Dutch libraries develop some conservative religious groups. They think that amounts to indoctrination of children and should be banned. So that has led to quite some uproar in some libraries. But libraries in the Netherlands tend to see themselves as a pillar of free speech and tolerance. So thankfully, at least coming from the authorities, there is no official push to curtail their freedom in developing their activities.
- [13:44]
James Kanter
Now, Raquel, you had a busy afternoon.
- [13:46]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
On the Wednesday of the January plenary session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg. You spoke on five different occasions in under 40 minutes. And part of why we saw so much of you that afternoon was that you were calling out what you and others identified as incidents of hate speech. You're a first term mep, and your perseverance, it really caught my attention, not least as you're entering the chamber at a time when there are significantly more far right MEPs willing to express extreme views than ever before. Will we see you keeping up this watchdog role?
- [14:24]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Well, I hope so, because I do think that in a time of shifting majorities within the European Parliament, which you rightly point out, it's even more important that we stand up for the core values of what the European Union means, values of tolerance, of freedom, of self determination, of being able to be who you are. And I don't believe, and my party has always been very, very strong on that, that any form of discriminatory or hate speech should be allowed in this chamber. And it's definitely not covered by freedom of speech.
- [14:58]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
So, Raquel, this session in the January plenary of the European Parliament was about quotes tackling demographic challenges in the eu. Now, that's jargony. Tell me what a debate on this topic should be about. What are the expected parameters of a debate like this?
- [15:18]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Right, so the debate should have been about how to implement what's called the EU Demography toolkit, and that is Commission documents trying to help the member states in tackling their demographic challenges. We do have demographic challenges. We have a shrinking part of the population who will be able to work in next few years. We have a lot of people who are growing older. People are staying older longer because, of course, life expectancy is still growing. So we do know that we have to do something about keeping a healthy working population to keep our welfare state in order. That's what it should have been about. But we knew beforehand that it would not be about that. We knew that extreme right would use this to spread their conspiracy theories about all sorts of plans to replace the European white population with immigrants from other countries.
- [16:16]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
I mean, were you warned of that, or is that something that just stands to reason these days?
- [16:21]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Well, unfortunately, it's something which stands to reasons the reason these days, because we have seen this happening in pretty much every other debate in this legislature already, which marginally has to do with anything in which they could bring in migration. And we also see that, for example, when we are discussing things which have to do with fundamental rights and freedoms, we see that they qualify homosexuality as a mental problem which should require treatments. It's like on every single front of this very conservative movement, whether it's about women's rights, whether it's about LGBTIQ rights, whether it's about migration, they always find a way to make the debate about that instead of making it about what it should be.
- [17:07]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Welcome to the new European Parliament. So the natalist and anti abortion circus really came out to play that afternoon in January. A group of far right meps quickly took the debate in directions that were highly problematic, including the use of conspiracy theories. This really vile conspiracy theory. The idea that what's behind migration is some kind of plan to deliberately replace a white Christian European population with people of color and Muslims. You know, Raquel, sometimes I feel that the far right is just trolling us with this stuff. Other times I think they believe. They really believe that they can breed enough white children to stop a need for migration to Europe to replenish our workforces. I mean, what do you really think about what they think?
- [18:00]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
I really think that it's a mix of elements. I am convinced that some of my colleagues in this parliament have gone so deep into the rabbit hole that they really believe this. I also think that a lot of them, probably most of them, are just populist opportunists, and they have found a way to instill fear in the population, which is turning into votes, which is turning into their electoral victories. And, you know, when you think about it, like, look at Steve Bannon. What was his plan? Just flood the place with shit?
- [18:42]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Yeah, flood the zone with shit.
- [18:44]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Flood the zone with shit. Thank you, James. So that is the strategy. The strategy is to make it impossible to distinguish fact from fiction and also.
- [18:57]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
To frame questions in ways that get people who respond to them on their turf. So you're always playing within their frame, and it's a very hard thing to break.
- [19:08]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Yes, and that's why we should not even attempt to debate this on the matter of facts, because if we don't have a shared reality, then you cannot have a debate on matter of facts. But what we should be doing, and that's what I tried to do, is to make the clear connection between words which are not innocent and the consequences for people. And that's why we qualified this with hate speech. Because to imply that there is a plan to replace the white Christian European population with migrants from other countries, particularly Muslims, has consequences for all those people on a daily basis. It leads to hate incidents, it leads to hate crimes, it leads to violence, it leads to discrimination. Those are things which should not be tolerated in the European Parliament. Words are not innocent. They have effect on people, and we should be stopping them at the source.
- [20:08]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
So the first time you intervene that afternoon is after the speech by an MEP called Susanna Borvandega from a Hungarian party, Our Homeland Movement. Now let me just explain. Our Homeland Movement came out of the Hungarian Jobic Party, which was extremely xenophobic and widely thought of as neo fascist. Our homeland is in what is arguably the most far right group in the Parliament, the sovereigntists and Borvin Dag. This MEP starts painting that dystopic picture of society that the far right seems so attached to. Society is taking the lives of children by allowing abortion and allowing mass migration. That's putting, quote, Europe in danger of extinction.
- [20:54]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Europe has embarked on self destruction as it has sought to solve its population crisis through mass migration. This idea has failed. The labor shortage remained, but new problems emerged and Europe was and is in danger of extinction.
- [21:12]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Borov and then speaks about specifically population replacement.
- [21:19]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Population replacement must be stopped and the traditional family model upheld, which is the basis of individual happiness and social stability.
- [21:29]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And here you make your first point of order right on the population replacement point.
- [21:36]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Specifically, yes, we see in historical research that there is a very clear connection between this great replacement theory and previous Nazi fascist theorists which implied that there was a movement to replace the original races of Europe with other races, among them Jews. Conversely, also, the Nazis were trying to replace other populations in other countries with their own pure Aryan race. So it's wrong from both perspectives.
- [22:06]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Ms. Hermida van der Wahle, please. And you have to mention according to the rules, of course, the rules that you refer to.
- [22:12]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Okay, now, thank you, Chair. Thank you for allowing my request. I refer to the rules of procedure, Article 4, when it comes to hate speech or offensive language. And the colleague from ESN used the term population replacement, this is generally accepted as hate speech and offensive language. And I request that this may be scrapped from the meeting and that the colleague is held responsible for using this hate speech. Thank you. It has been acknowledged as hate speech which should not be allowed in, for example, the Dutch Parliament. So we do know that there are precedents of this. And again, I consider that at that point the line had been crossed in which the chair of this session in Parliament should intervene in the Dutch Parliament.
- [23:08]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
I mean, is this clear? Is it adhered to?
- [23:11]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Well, there was an incident a couple of years ago when the current Minister of Migration, belonging to extreme right party pvv, used this term during a session. And the then Prime Minister and now Secretary General of NATO, Mark Rutte, who's himself a historian, said very clearly, I am not going to allow such language. Omfolking is that in Dutch, in this chamber, it is directly connected to Nazi terminology. And this is not something I'm having.
- [23:44]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
So this is hate speech. You identify it and you request to the chair that the language is scrapped from, I guess, the record, and you ask for consequences. And the chairman says he'll inform the bureau, which is this very Orwellian term.
- [24:00]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Chaired by the Chair of the European Parliament. So the President of the European Parliament, Roberta Metsola, she is at the head of the bureau and they're their vice presidents. And in principle, they are the ones who are tasked with maintaining parliamentary form.
- [24:15]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
So the bureau, the chair of this meeting promises that the bureau will look at your point of order. Have you heard from the Bureau about any consequences?
- [24:26]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
I have sent a letter to Roberta Metsola on Friday, Last week. Friday.
- [24:33]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
The President.
- [24:33]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
The President of the European Parliament, who's a centrist conservative. Yes. And she has been very good at maintaining parliamentary form and she has been very vocal against bad behavior in plenary and in session. So I am hopeful that she will look into this. I also want to say that before the Christmas break, I was there during the debate when one of the members called homosexuals mentally ill. At that time, it was not so clear to me that we had this rule of procedure by which such speech should not be allowed. If I had known that back then, I'm still learning, then I would have definitely stood up, because that was really hard to hear.
- [25:21]
James Kanter
What should be the consequences for Ms.
- [25:24]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Borvandag, this MEP from our homeland movement who talked about population replacement, Nazi language?
- [25:31]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Yes. For her and for any others doing that during that debate, because there were at least three, and possibly more. I mean, at some point you just cannot follow everything. I do think that the first step is that they receive an Official warning from President Metsola that such language is not going to be allowed in this chamber. And of course, if they keep repeating this, if they keep doing this, then it could lead to disciplinary measures a few minutes later.
- [26:01]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
After this incident with MEP Borvindeg, you then make your own short intervention. This is the custom where MEPs can speak for one minute or two minutes. And your point is that we need workers from overseas to allow Europeans to stay in rural areas. Such areas need doctors, electricians, solar panel mechanics, all manner of skills to make these places continue to be livable. But you say populists are closing the doors. So you kind of come at this from an economic angle.
- [26:37]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Well, it's a mix we're discussing here, the demography toolkit. And the fourth point of that toolkit has to do with allowing for paths for legal migration into the European Union. So because I am loyal to the spirit of the debate, I am approaching it from that perspective. It is a matter of fact that we won't be able to supply the demands of the labor markets, not only in rural areas, but also throughout the European Union, just with our own youth at this moment. So we're trying to find a way into which our welfare states can be maintained into the future. And our services level, especially, like I said, in rural areas, can also be maintained. And this is very personal for me, because I live in such an area in Frieslaw, and that is in the north of the Netherlands, in a village of about 8,000 people. And we already see that there are issues with filling up positions. We already see that in some sectors there are many more vacancies than there are people. My husband is a carpenter for a building company. I mean, they are really in need of more colleagues. And the labor market within the European Union is not enough. So my party, D66 and also renew, we do believe that we have to look at legal migration pathways from outside the European Union. Of course, the message of extreme right also has to do with all forms of migration, including particularly things like asylum migration, in which they feel that we should be keeping that to a bare minimum or even stop it completely. And that's a different aspect of this debate. If the debate was about asylum migration, then I would have been standing up by the fact that a core European value is that we protect people fleeing from persecution. Implatz van Populisme have an optimism.
- [28:36]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
We have this populism, but we don't need that. What we need is optimism. We need to look outwards as opposed to sticking our heads in the sand.
- [28:43]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Thank you.
- [28:45]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Then, Raquel, A few minutes later, there's a particularly ugly intervention from a Bulgarian MEP, Rada Lykova. She's formerly worked with the far right AfD, the Alternative for Germany party in Germany, and she's now an elected member for an ultra nationalist and broadly pro Russian party called Revival. This Bulgarian party is also part of the sovereigntists group in the European Parliament. She immediately zeroes in on race and ethnicity. It is quite chilling, and on how neoliberal economics have destroyed our willingness to have children. But it's that beeline she makes at the very beginning of her intervention that I found really quite shocking.
- [29:39]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
We often speak about demographic crisis, but it is ethno demographic. There is the fertility problem, but there is also the problem with the change of the ethnic origin of the population. An increasing number of people are Muslims. The fact that she specifically mentions Muslims at the problem, at the root of the problem, should be a red flag, because, you know, if you're singling out one religion, one belief, one race, one people, then you do know that's not about a general concern that has to do with a very racist outlook on all sorts of affairs, including migration.
- [30:35]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And you intervene again here.
- [30:38]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
Another point of order from Ms. Van der Waale.
- [30:41]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Thank you, Chair. I will keep saying this. Rule 4 and Rule 10 suggesting that.
- [30:45]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Lykova has used hate speech. And while you are making your points, you're being shouted at from across the chamber. There's a male voice in the background.
- [30:55]
James Kanter
Hate speech is always the.
- [30:59]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And you persist.
- [31:01]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Hate speech is clearly defined, population replacement and every other synonym. It's Nazi terminology. We all know that this should not be allowed in this chamber. Thank you, Chair.
- [31:17]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
So the rules. The rules are clear.
- [31:21]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And again you get a promise from the Chair to examine your complaint. Raquel, is this point of order system that you were using in the European Parliament that day to intervene in cases where we are hearing Nazi language, where we're hearing fascistic thinking? Is this point of order system satisfactory?
- [31:44]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Partly. But for it to be satisfactory, it has to lead to consequences. Second point there is that it's difficult to uphold this if there's only one person standing up and saying this. So in an ideal world, we would be there with many more MEPs, a bit more coordinated. But that is a bit of self reflection for us to be able to stand up as a group at the progressive side and make sure that we present a united front and that it won't be up to one single MEP to raise a point of order. But that we will be doing that, maybe by turns during a debate, but it's not enough. It's not enough. So I do think that we have to have much stronger debate rules in this House, which allows not only to make a point of order, but also to be able to. To speak to these colleagues directly, ask them for clarification directly, and have the chance to reply to that as well. Right.
- [32:47]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Because it seems like the MEP who has, let's say, uttered the hate speech, they kind of get the last word.
- [32:55]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
They do. And of course, you can try to use what we call here a blue card. A blue card is you ask for an intervention as a reply to a colleague, and then you have the right to ask a question for a minute, and then the colleague who just spoke can answer that question, but that's the last word. So there is no way to counter the factually not rights, or possibly even more hate speech, or quite frankly, just crap that they're sending into the world, because then your time is up and there is no possibility to reflect on that or to say something different.
- [33:38]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And we know, I mean, the basics, communication 101 is the sandwich principle. So give the truth, then present the lie if you absolutely need to, and then after that, kind of reiterate what the truth is. But here you have a situation in the Parliament where the lie is being uttered. We get a little bit of truth. Thank you, Raquel. In January. But then we might get another version of that lie reiterated, because the MEP who originally uttered it can stand up again and have this last word. So it's highly problematic.
- [34:10]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
It is problematic and more so because we know that that's the case. I hear some colleagues not even asking for blue cards, because it's a way to give the extreme right another podium, another moment to repeat what they had already said, because of course, they never answer to our questions. They just repeat what they just said in a different way or add on to it. So it has a cooling effect on the progressive side of the hemicycle to ask for blue cards.
- [34:48]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
It's very interesting because your final intervention that afternoon is after a speech by a member of Parliament from Georgia, Meloni's party. This MEP is called Paul Insilvini. This is a neo fascist party. It's called the Fratelli d', Italia, the Brothers of Italy. You ask MEP Insolveni to explain a bit further how natalist policies, quasi natalist policies in Italy are actually working in practice. You're rather dubious. And your point is that these Policies aren't really working neither to produce more children nor to stop the arrivals. And yet, case in point, he has the last word. He doesn't really answer your question at all.
- [35:34]
Various Far Right MEPs (e.g., Susanna Borvandega, Jorge Boucid Villalba, Ivan David, Iadis Iadi)
On the other hand, we do not believe that the solution to the demographic crisis is immigration. And so we're trying to combat illegal immigration because this is part of the solution.
- [35:45]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
And we see you on the screen kind of face palming a little bit while he's doing this. And again, it's an illustration of the shortcomings of this blue card system.
- [36:00]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
Face palming is something that I might need to avoid a bit, because I see that happening quite often in this debate. No, but seriously, my point was he went on and on about how Meloni was doing everything that she could to damp migration and encourage Italian women to have children. Now, I want to be very clear about this. Whether women want to have more or fewer children, that's their business, not my business. If we can ensure that women can make the reproductive choices that they want to make, and that is having more children, and we can support them in doing so. More power to you, sister. I have three girls. I'm very happy with any support that I can get from the government, so that's one thing. But the fact that he was not acknowledging that none of these efforts of Meloni have stopped the biggest arrival of not only illegal migrants, like he claims, but also legal migrants to feed the need for labor in Italy in the last two years. So there have been more migrants coming in to Italy legally to work than in many previous years. He was not even trying to acknowledge that. That's why I raised my blue card. And I asked him, well, if. If this is all working so well for Italy, how can you explain that? And then he went back on illegal migration, which was not my point at all, because that was the subject of the debate. How can we also use legal pathways for migration like it's happening in Italy, by the way, to sustain our labor markets? And yes, he got the last words. And all I had was facepalm and have to eat up my frustration.
- [37:40]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
If we just go back to the incidents of hate speech that we were talking about. Do we know if there's any systematic recording of these incidents of hate speech and neo Nazism in the European Parliament?
- [37:52]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
No, I don't know. I don't know if there are any organizations, civil society NGOs doing this. I also don't think that that should be the role of civil society of NGOs or any other parties. For the record, I do think that, that the rules of procedure, to go back to my previous point, is something that should be enforced and guarded by the presidency of this parliament. That is part of the role the bureau has to ensure that we all play by the same rules. So if there's anyone doing this, then it should be the bureau. And that's why I've asked President Metsolah to open an investigation into what happened into the debate and take further measures.
- [38:34]
Interviewer/Host (likely a co-host or EU Scream team member)
Raquel, can you keep this up? Five years loom ahead with Trump back in the White House, the alternative for Germany riding high in the polls, the prospect of Le Pen coming to power in France. The far right feel emboldened. It's almost like they're out of the starting gates now. And this kind of hate speech could get a lot worse before it gets better.
- [39:02]
Raquel Garcia Hermida van der Waal
They walk around here like they own the place. And that is the essence of what democracy is. Not just because you have a majority at a certain point in time. You should not be forgetting about the minorities. Right? We rule by democracy, by protecting our minorities also when there is a different majority. So for me, this is a core matter. This is a core principle. The future of our free Europe, democratic Europe. Europe with respect for the rights of women, the rights of lgbtiq, the rights of minorities, the rule of law is really at stake. And it begins in this parliament. Because what we do here, what we decide here, the message that we send to the outside world is what, at the end of the day, in very real terms, it's the difference between darkness and light. And for me, Europe has always been light. And if I can contribute in these debates to fight that darkness, then I will keep doing so.
- [40:23]
James Kanter
That's it for this episode. But one more thing before you go. There's an easy way to become a material supporter of EU Scream. It's simple. You look for eu scream@patreon.com and you pledge what you can. Now, EU Scream is non profit journalism. We might occasionally do partnerships and take advertising, and we're grateful to Full Beam Media for an annual grant. But here's the thing. We need your support to bring you more content, more regularly. It's your support that helps us delve into this new darker era in our politics, into how the EU should be responding, and into the thoughts and experience of people who really know what they're talking about. Small donations to large ones, it's all incredibly appropriate, appreciated. It also helps when we get a five star rating at Spotify or a review at Apple. Podcasts and passing on episodes to family, colleagues, friends that's another great way to show support. For more details and for more EU Scream do, please visit EU scream.com Thanks for listening.