Podcast Summary: EU Scream – Ep. 114: High Noon for the Digital Services Act

Date: March 29, 2025
Host: James Kanter (EU Scream Host)
Guests: Christel Schaldemosa (Danish Social Democrat MEP, architect of the DSA), Sandro Gozzi (Italian Liberal MEP), various EU and industry officials

Episode Overview

This episode of EU Scream unpacks the rising tensions around the EU’s landmark Digital Services Act (DSA), as enforcement stalls and American tech giants—led by Elon Musk (X), Mark Zuckerberg (Meta), and the Trump administration—mount a fierce backlash. The episode features firsthand reflections from two leading European lawmakers, Christel Schaldemosa and Sandro Gozzi, on their recent official delegation to Washington. At the core, the discussion explores how the US-EU relationship is transforming in the digital sphere, how tech platforms are defying Europe’s regulatory push, and where the battle lines are being drawn over online speech, algorithmic transparency, and democracy itself.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Backdrop: Big Tech vs. EU Regulation

• Framing the Stakes:
  The episode opens with dramatic imagery: US tech tycoons (Musk, Zuckerberg) and Vice President J.D. Vance, along with far-right and MAGA politicians, are depicted as gunslingers disrupting the “EU canteen” and challenging Europe's push for digital regulation.
  • Quote: "It's like they're now scanning a crowd of bewildered Eurocrats and asking menacingly, who really wants a fight over what belongs online?" (EU Scream Host, 04:33)
• The DSA Explained:
  • Focuses on enforcing algorithmic transparency, limiting illegal hate speech and content harmful to children, and safeguarding democracy.
  • Carries heavy penalties: up to 6% of global turnover; platforms can even be banned.
  • Yet, enforcement is perceived as slow and toothless; platforms like X and Meta are seen as openly defiant (11:15–12:04).

2. US Political Dynamics: The Washington Delegation

• Shifting Mood in the US:
  • Christel Schaldemosa describes meeting officials in the US as tense, marked by polarization and an "us versus them" mentality—particularly under the Trump administration.
    • Quote: "No matter what we said, I had the impression that [Jim Jordan] did not really think we were right. ...It was this complete change of mood." (Schaldemosa, 07:19)
• Meeting with Jim Jordan:
  • Jordan brands the EU’s efforts—including the Draghi report on competitiveness—as “anti-American.”
  • He frames EU digital regulation as censorship, dismisses foreign disinformation campaigns, and claims even studying disinformation suppresses conservatives.
    • Quote: "Jim Jordan replied that there is no such thing like foreign interference. …This is all wrong or false." (Gozzi, 35:09)
• Dichotomy of Free Speech:
  • Schaldemosa argues that the US approach is chilling dissent—especially for women and minorities—rather than encouraging open debate (10:06–10:33).

3. DSA Enforcement: Challenges and Strategic Risks

• Platforms' Defiance:
  • Both X and Meta are accused of undercutting or resisting the DSA; X allegedly amplifies the German far-right AfD, while Meta drops fact-checking and threatens retaliation if penalized by Europe (12:04).
• Concerns Over Enforcement:
  • Schaldemosa fears the EU is moving too slowly and might use DSA cases as bargaining chips in transatlantic trade relations, undermining the DSA’s credibility.
    • Quote: “I have honestly difficulties believing that the commission would use our laws in order to trade with the United States on other topics. …The consequences of that is horrible to the European society.” (Schaldemosa, 17:47)
• Fines and Bans—Theory or Practice?:
  • Despite the threat of heavy fines or market bans, Schaldemosa expects a gradual escalation akin to the GDPR experience, at least at first (15:45–16:39).
  • Ban may be a theoretical option, as the EU’s commitment to fundamental rights means enforcement would stop short of outright censorship (16:39).

4. Systemic Risks and the Need for Agility

• Identifying Systemic Risk:
  • Lawmakers struggle to define the tipping point from acceptable online activity to threats against democracy—particularly when platforms’ algorithms amplify specific parties or suppress dissent (21:25–24:05).
    • Quote: "If he uses his algorithms...where AfD is getting a more prominent position and others...are downgraded... then I think we are moving into a systemic risk." (Schaldemosa, 22:10)
• Limits of Current Tools:
  • The DSA’s architecture, designed in part to guard against state interference (e.g., from Hungary or Poland), now faces newer threats from US Big Tech and foreign manipulation, complicating enforcement and requiring new approaches (25:17–27:16).

5. Toward a “Democracy Shield”—Defensive & Proactive Regulation

• Bolstering Resilience:
  • Schaldemosa's committee explores ways to defend against both internal and external disinformation—including building media literacy and considering disruptive tools, such as temporary social media blackouts pre-election (29:11).
    • Quote: "You could even consider closing down social media three weeks before an election. ...We have to really look into the toolbox." (Schaldemosa, 28:23)
• Reducing Tech Dependence:
  • Discussion of Europe’s continued reliance on US technology infrastructure, from software to satellite communication (Starlink), and the new sense of insecurity this raises for EU autonomy (30:27–31:53).

6. Intra-European and US Political Complexities

• Divisions within Europe:
  • Gozzi notes the embarrassment and contradiction among Europe’s nationalist right: they criticize “foreign” regulation but look to American tech moguls for approval. He calls this a “peculiar concept of sovereignty and autonomy.” (38:55)
    • Quote: “Whereas the sovereignists take instruction outside Europe, across the Atlantic... which is pretty peculiar concept of sovereignty and autonomy.” (Gozzi, 39:16)
  • Far-right leaders, like Giorgia Meloni in Italy, are accused of cozying up to Musk and Trump for opportunistic reasons while weakening European unity and values (40:01–42:06).
• US Leverage over EU (Starlink Example):
  • Europe’s reliance on US tech is exposed in the context of the Ukraine conflict, with Musk’s dominance over Starlink giving him—and by extension the US—tactical leverage (42:06–43:44).

7. The Political Power Struggle and Enforcement Delays

• Fear of Escalation:
  • Gozzi explains the Commission is being cautious—delaying enforcement to avoid losing its landmark regulatory challenge on a technicality if companies such as X contest their fines (43:44–44:41).
• Former Commissioner Thierry Breton’s Demise:
  • Breton, a tough DSA enforcer, was forced out—possibly as a result of pressure from Musk, political dynamics in Paris, and lobbying from the US.
    • Notable Quote: "[Musk] responds to Breton with a meme…saying take a big step back and literally go fuck your face.” (Kanter, 46:13)
    • Discussion of how pro-business voices inside the Commission saw Breton as “too fast” and “pushy,” even as the urgency of the threat was clear to outside observers (47:26).

8. Industry Pushback and EU Resolve

• Tech Lobby Complaints:
  • Tech lobbyists argue the DSA is burdensome and was rushed compared to other procurement processes (canteen deals, as joked by Konstantin Gisler) (52:53).
• MEP Perspective on Enforcement:
  • Gozzi insists that the Commission "must implement" digital legislation, regardless of other trade or security concerns. The DSA, passed after extensive democratic process, cannot be traded away (53:43–55:34).
    • Quote: “It is non-negotiable because democratically, after three years and half of work… we have adopted our legislation.” (Gozzi, 45:04)

Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 04:33 | "It's like they're now scanning a crowd of bewildered Eurocrats and asking menacingly, who really wants a fight over what belongs online?" | EU Scream Host | | 07:19 | "No matter what we said, I had the impression that [Jim Jordan] did not really think we were right...It was this complete change of mood.” | Christel Schaldemosa | | 12:04 | "Things are really developing in the wrong direction." | Christel Schaldemosa | | 16:39 | "The fundamental rights is very important for us also in EU, so it is...more a theoretical option rather than a real option [to ban platforms]." | Christel Schaldemosa | | 22:10 | "...If [Musk] uses his algorithms...where AfD is getting a more prominent position...then...we are moving into a systemic risk." | Christel Schaldemosa | | 29:11 | "You could even consider closing down social media three weeks before an election...We have to really look into the toolbox.” | Christel Schaldemosa | | 35:09 | "Jim Jordan replied that there is no such thing like foreign interference...So basically...denied the obvious." | Sandro Gozzi | | 39:16 | "Whereas the sovereignists take instruction outside Europe, across the Atlantic...which is pretty peculiar concept of sovereignty and autonomy." | Sandro Gozzi | | 45:04 | "It is non negotiable because democratically, after three years and half of work… we have adopted our legislation." | Sandro Gozzi | | 46:13 | "[Musk] responds to Breton with a meme…saying take a big step back and literally go fuck your face." | James Kanter | | 53:43 | "They pretended to agree...but of course they would like to be totally free. They don't want the rules..." | Sandro Gozzi |

Important Segments & Timestamps

• 00:04 – 04:33 | Introductions & context-setting: Tech moguls vs. EU regulators
• 05:39 – 11:13 | Christel Schaldemosa reports back from Washington, critiques US political climate, discusses the Jim Jordan meeting
• 12:04 – 17:47 | Schaldemosa discusses DSA enforcement challenges, risk of EU backing down, and her expectations for fines/penalties
• 21:25 – 29:02 | Systemic risks, risk mitigation under DSA, and proposals for the Democracy Shield
• 30:09 – 32:19 | Europe’s dependence on US technology; the security imperative for tech independence
• 34:36 – 39:33 | Sandro Gozzi discusses ideological divides within Europe, Meloni's associations with Musk and Trump
• 42:06 – 44:41 | Starlink, US leverage, and why the Commission may be dragging its feet on enforcement
• 46:13 – 49:13 | Thierry Breton’s defenestration, Musk’s provocations, and the regulatory power struggle
• 49:24 – 53:43 | Meta’s lack of moderation in non-English languages, tech companies’ resistance and minimization, EU resolve
• 53:43 – 55:34 | Gozzi’s closing remarks: The DSA is a non-negotiable democratic achievement

Tone & Style

• Candid, urgent, sometimes caustic: Lawmakers do not mince words about the stakes, their US counterparts, or the behavior of Big Tech.
• Reflective, policy-focused: Much of the discussion is grounded in personal experience from the Washington visit or committee hearings.
• Defensive but determined: The European side repeatedly insists the DSA’s aims are non-negotiable, despite both external and internal pressure.

Takeaways

• Europe’s digital rules have become a global flashpoint, with the EU standing alone in pursuing big tech regulation as the US moves toward even greater corporate latitude and culture war politics in the online space.
• Enforcement of the DSA is both urgent and fraught, with major tech platforms acting as if untouchable and US political forces threatening economic and military consequences.
• Internal European unity is fragile, with the nationalist right torn between its rhetoric of “sovereignty” and dependence on US actors.
• Lawmakers remain committed to the DSA but recognize that only a strong, values-driven enforcement will avoid digital law becoming a mere bargaining chip.

For more details and full episodes, visit EU Scream.