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A
Hamas despicable actions are the hallmark of terrorists. And I know that how Israel responds will show that it is a democracy exerting the right of self defense to do this in line with international law.
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B
What happened, particularly in the last few days, was the statements made by Israeli cabinet ministers, the leading cabinet ministers, that say we should starve Gaza. What is it if not a war crime? The images of mothers embracing motionless bodies, caressing their hair, talking to them, apologizing to them, is unbearable. How could anyone?
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A
As we have noted, calls of condemnation and threats of additional sanctions and a reevaluation of trade partnerships among traditional allies have now been dominating news headlines.
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What the Israeli army is now doing in the Gaza Strip. Frankly, I no longer understand what the objective is.
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C
This is EU Scream, the podcast that guides you through stories coming from the eu.
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D
We talk about the news a bit.
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C
Differently and with people who really know what they're talking about.
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D
I'm James Cantor.
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C
This is episode 116 Gaza Staatrazon and Von der Leyen with the journalist Katrin Pribyl who covers the EU for major German regional newspapers and who's previously reported from Israel and the Palestinian territories. Catrin A massacre led from Gaza by Hamas on October 7, 2023 sparked the war in Gaza. Hamas K killed around 1,200 people, with 251 people taken hostage. Israeli forces over the past 20 months killed around 55,000 Gazans. Israel now stands accused of war crimes and even risking famine and a genocide. But when it comes to trying to restrain Israel, there's still a huge gap between the political rhetoric and the reality of what Israel's European allies are actually doing. Which leads us to Germany, which is kind of the elephant in the room, at least in regards to the European Union stance in this war.
- [02:57]
E
I would probably not call Germany the elephant in the room because it's not the only country standing very firm on Israel's side. The whole European Union is very much divided on the Middle Eastern conflict, but of course it's the most powerful, the biggest country in the European Union. It has huge weight what Germany is doing, what saying, and they have been constantly very much on Israel's side. Even the criticism was very quiet compared to the other countries. And Germany's stance probably was a bit sticking out because of its history and its past that like Germany is always on the side of Israel.
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C
How should we describe some of the inaction when it comes to Israel and Gaza?
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E
Well, in my opinion, that close relationship with Israel is very much part of Germany's self conception. It is very much engraved in the German identity. What has happened during the Shoah, the Holocaust of the Nazis is a huge part of the German. Yeah, I would say identity, the existence of Israel and the right to exist. Yet the war in Gaza is presenting Germany with a moral dilemma, I would call it, because they watch the atrocities in Gaza, the suffering and so on. And Germany is struggling because they are this big advocate to international law and human rights and it's very committed it. And yet are we doing this only with other countries and not with Israel?
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C
And not with Israel.
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E
And I think that we know, and politicians refer to it constantly that Israel's security is an element of Germany's reason of state.
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C
This is the Staats raison.
- [04:58]
E
Exactly, the Staatsreson, in other words. And that I think is very important to understand the debate. Germany's very existing is linked to Israel's security. So what do you do with that now? We like that formula is not very much defined, it's very vague.
- [05:17]
C
The formula for the stat raison.
- [05:19]
E
Yes, but it's been adopted by almost all politicians in the country. Olaf Scholz, the former Chancellor, said it quite publicly after the massacre of Hamas on Israel. So they always refer back to that and then they're caught or almost trapped in that concept because what are you doing now when everything is escalating, Thousands and thousands of people in Gaza are being bombed and killed and yet this sort of concept or formula, reason of state is leading how to deal with Israel.
- [06:05]
C
Right. So it becomes this entire limiting factor.
- [06:09]
E
Very much so, because at the moment they don't really know what to do then if it's like linked to the existence of the state, what do you do when all of a sudden Israel is completely overdoing everything? So I think like for a lot of Germans and that discussion unfortunately is only starting now on a political level, they are questioning that concept or at least they want an honest conversation about it. And I don't think that has happened so far really. It was very one sided, it was not differentiated. It's just it was like the argument always was ended when you say but we've got the Staatsreson the reason of state. Because what else can you say to that?
- [06:57]
C
When we do discuss Staats raison, this is raison d' etat in French or state interest in English. This term basically is applied when a country, a state puts its interests, when it determines that those interests are linked to its self preservation above moral and legal concerns. It's a trump card in a way. And the concept, this concept of the Staats Raison in relation to Israel in Germany was made even more prominent by the former German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Right.
- [07:35]
E
Well, she used that word when she had her big prominent speech at the Knesset, the Israeli parliament in 2008 already. And since then there has been a, I mean, even in Germany, a lot of head scratching. What she actually meant with it, is that about unwavering political support? Is it about military help and support? Or is it about like we, we help and stand behind Israel no matter what? We don't know really. And there was even back then already criticism because we, like, there was just no definition. And the question was, was Angela Merkel just being carried away because she could like speak in the Knesset? You know, that was a big thing, of course, back then. Or has it actually harmed Germany's foreign policy rather than helped it? That I think is a quite a big question, especially because times have changed. You know, 2008, it was a different world and there was like a totally different context when she made that concept, formula, however you want to call it, when she made that prominent, because back then Ehud Olmet was Prime Minister in.
- [08:57]
C
Israel, who was a fairly progressive leader.
- [09:00]
E
Yes. And there was also a lot of hope that a two state solution could actually happen. And even years later when then Netanyahu took over and the settlements got worse and so on. And Angela Merkel was very critical when it came to building more and more settlements, that she actually didn't use that word that often anymore.
- [09:27]
C
So.
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E
But now after that massacre, all of.
- [09:29]
C
A sudden it was after, after the October 7th massacre.
- [09:33]
E
Exactly.
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C
Right. So after the Hamas attack, everyone referred.
- [09:37]
E
Again back to the Staatzresson and explained the support and the unwavering support with that.
- [09:47]
C
So it's a very sticky concept in Germany, the Staatsreison. And as you say, there was criticism around the time that Merkel used the term in 2008, and there were some people asking, well, does this imply that Germany would even send troops and military, Would it send its own military to Israel to defend Israel? There was some speculation about that. And then there was speculation about, well, does this mean that Germany has to vote with Israel in the, in the un, you know, systematically. So I mean, it, it really led to a great deal of speculation, as you say, as to, well, what are the boundaries of the stats, Raison?
- [10:35]
E
Exactly. And that's why even the president at the time, Joachim Gauch, the president was actually saying publicly that she had gone too far. Now, he still supported the idea of it. And in principle, he was, of course, backing what she was saying, but it was just very difficult to imagine every scenario when it comes to politically implementing her statement. And I know that back then the Israelis very often said, well, we don't need the German military help. We were not that, like the Bundeswehr is not famous for or like.
- [11:15]
C
No, this is the German military, which has. Which has a reputation for being a bit ramshackle.
- [11:19]
E
Exactly. So the German Bundeswehr is probably not needed in Israel. But of course, that we continued over the years sending arms and also submarines. It's a very, you know, delicate issue also in Germany. And like the. Actually the chancellor and the government has this. Agree to delivering submarines.
- [11:43]
C
We should straight up talk about how Germany has been Israel's second largest arms supplier after the United States, accounting for a third of Israel's imports during the years 2020, 2024. That trade was worth a total of 326 million euros in 2023 alone. Most of that material is supposed to be taken defensive, and that trade has decreased, actually. However, there are still major concerns that some German weapons and components are being used by the Israelis to commit war crimes.
- [12:20]
E
I don't see Germany stopping delivering arms, I must say, although recently they have had a major shift in tone and they were more critical about Israel's bombing. And, you know, Chancellor Merritt said only like the other day, that of course he can't see any goal anymore and.
- [12:42]
C
He can't see a goal in the. In the destruction.
- [12:45]
E
Yeah, like. Well, he can't see a strategy of the Israelis. I mean, very. For. For a German chancellor, very harsh criticism. But at the same time, the foreign minister also pointed out that they are very committed in like, you know, keeping delivering arms to Israel. They are still considering, of course, Israel as one of the closest friends. That special relationship is going to stay.
- [13:14]
C
There was Chancellor Mertz and then there's this foreign minister who's called Josef Vadapoel.
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E
Vadafur. Oui.
- [13:23]
C
And Vadapo makes the point, as you were saying, that. That weapons supplies are very likely to continue.
- [13:31]
E
Well, no, he made it actually very clear that Germany will continue to deliver arms and that also Germany will stand by the commitments on the European level when it comes to Israel. So far, I cannot see where Germany is drawing some red lines. So how far would they go in their support of Israel at the moment? I just can't imagine there is actually a red line.
- [14:02]
C
And just back to this point about the depth with which Germany has embraced the principle of standing by Israel. That idea is part of what a very large German publisher, Axis Springer, requires of its staff. There's actually some rules on Israel in the Axel Springer rule book for its journalists to follow.
- [14:28]
E
The support of Israel is even in the editorial principles. That's true. And I think it just says a lot about that, you know, understanding in Germany, how you kind of see Germany, how we grow up, basically with this. Yes, this feeling of having a huge responsibility for that country. And they probably go too far. I mean, me personally, I think this is too far. But of course, it's also reflected in their articles in the newspapers, in like, the big tabloid in Germany is very in favor of Israel. It's very critical towards everyone who actually is critical towards Israel. And I think this is very problematic.
- [15:27]
C
And we should probably mention that Politico, the newspaper that we have in the United States and here in Brussels, is owned by Axel Springer. So, you know, this has, this has wide reach, this has broad implications, this German tradition inside the Brussels bubble. Catherine, blame for inaction on Gaza on the part of the European Union has tended to focus on Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission and a German conservative. What has she done to be a kind of lightning rod?
- [16:12]
E
I mean, she traveled to Israel shortly after that terror attack on October 7, and she was giving unwavering support to Israel. I think for a lot of European partners, she did not point out the suffering of the Palestinians enough. And I must say I found that almost a bit unfair because in the context back then, it was, I mean, a terror organization killing 1200 people, taking.
- [16:50]
C
Hostages, taking 251 hostages.
- [16:53]
E
Yes. You know, of course, that was, that was back then, probably the right thing for a commission, like a president of the commission to do. If she had also seen the other side, I think that would have been very helpful. But then I think she was also a bit caught in this situation and being a German, and she was, let's not forget, she was a minister under Angela Merkel. I mean, for her, this whole concept, the German concept is not far off. So I don't know, of course, but I think she felt that that was the right thing to do. And to be fair, there was also then Josep Borrell, like the Spanish, he.
- [17:48]
C
Was Josep Borrell, who was the high representative, sort of the European Union's foreign minister.
- [17:55]
E
Exactly. And he was then on the other side of the argument. So he was very critical and very pro Palestinian. So maybe that also caused outrage by other countries. I think Ursula von der Leyen, I.
- [18:12]
C
Mean, she had but Let me point out that it was Ursula von der Leyen who probably had control of the electricity button that lit up the entire EU headquarters in the colors of the Israeli flag.
- [18:27]
E
But don't we do that very often when there is a huge terror attack in some countries?
- [18:35]
C
It was seen as a very provocative.
- [18:37]
E
Thing to do by parts of the Europeans. That's true. And that's what I mean, again, on that issue, it's so polarized and so divided that someone, like, with a love wonderland, I don't think she can win on that at all. So, like, I think. I mean, there are a lot of criticism is coming for the last 18 months that she. She was not talking about it a lot. She. There was no big statements until recently, but I think she just thought, I can't win on that. I will just be silent. Is that democratic? Is that good? Is that leadership? I mean, that's for you to answer. But I think she was just kind of holding back now, letting other people speak and also being maybe a bit too German on that as well.
- [19:30]
C
Let's talk about how the German dilemma, the German moral dilemma, has played out in your own life experience, including when you worked as a journalist in Israel.
- [19:41]
E
Well, I was there in 2013, actually, as a freelance journalist and had the privilege to cover a very wide range of topics. So I actually could meet all sorts of people from both sides. And, like, it's just so moving to be there because you can feel the history in every encounter. Even more so, I think, as a German, because. And then sometimes I did feel actually as part of their history, because everyone would tell you their story, and everyone has a story to tell in Israel and in the west bank and Gaza, of course.
- [20:26]
C
What issues did you confront then? And maybe how do those issues compare and contrast a little bit with the work you're doing now in Brussels?
- [20:34]
E
What I always found interesting was that in Israel, whoever I talked to from the Israeli side would straight away tell me their story. And it doesn't matter if it was in a jewelry shop or in a cafe, someone just asking for the sugar. Whenever they've heard that I'm German, they would tell me their life story, who got killed when, where, from their family during the Holocaust, which is very moving, very sad. Which also, like, kind of. I didn't. I never knew what to answer, except, I'm very sorry to hear that. You know, it was a constant reminder where I'm coming from, what my ancestors did. I grew up, you know, in a time when no one talked about it at home, like with my grandparents, I couldn't talk about it. Whatever happened, you know, I don't even know if my great grandparents, I mean, I know they were in the war. I guess in some ways they were like, there were some soldiers, but I don't really know what happened, actually. And I was very often. I mean, I didn't know what to say in the beginning. I found it quite shocking. Israelis are, in a very charming way, super straightforward and very direct. And I love that about the people there. But of course, I was completely overwhelmed by how they sort of completely overloaded me with so much suffering. An Israeli friend who I lived with even, and we got very close, but she was always very clear that she was saying, you know what? I like you so much, but I would never travel to Germany. It would feel like a betrayal of my family and all these things. I mean, that was recently. Right. But I just want to explain where the sentiment, let's say, of a lot of Germans is coming from, because this does something to you. And. And for me, it was a very deep experience which really shaped in some ways how I think about the world, how I think about myself, my country, you know, everything. So I think it's also sometimes quite unfair how in Europe, the German blame game is going on without any. At least, like, you know, try to understand where they're coming from and how difficult this transition now is, how difficult it is to actually watch what's going on in the Middle East.
- [23:37]
C
It's creating this kind of cognitive dissonance where on the one hand, you know, you have this debt that can never really ever be repaid to the Jewish people, which is embodied by the defense of the State of Israel. And meanwhile, you have the state of Israel not only being quite autocratic under Netanyahu, but being on the wrong side of international law, the case of possible genocide, as you say. I mean, it's a brand new paradigm, but not a brand new paradigm for Palestinians who have been on the wrong side of the Israeli Defense Forces for many, many years. Did the Palestinians have a particular view of Germans and Germany?
- [24:22]
E
They were always super friendly and were very much thankful because there was also always a lot of support, actually from Germany for the Palestinians, for the Palestinians, no one really talks about that so much. The Israelis were also very critical about that. It's the same like the eu. There's a lot of financial support for the Palestinians. I guess they just hoped that there's more pressure coming from Germany. They knew that there's a way that Germany has maybe some ways to put Pressure on Israel. At the same time I felt also like that there was this sense of hopelessness. No one could see even back then, a way out of the situation.
- [25:16]
C
You wrote a commentary less than a month after the Hamas attack on 10-07-2023 and this commentary was pretty clear eyed about the catastrophe. It was a column from 2nd of November 2023 and in one part you write, quote, it is entirely legitimate to empathize with the years old anger and suffering of the Palestinians to, to demand more humanitarian aid for the suffering civilians and to work to ensure that they can live in dignity and peace in their own state, provided Israel is safe on its own territory and not accompanied by the constant fear that its neighbor will seize the next opportunity to attack the Jewish people. So pretty reasonable I'd say. What was the response now?
- [26:07]
E
Just to go back to that time, the public discussion in Germany was completely one sided. So when I wrote that I thought this is just a complete normal way of trying to explain maybe both sides. But I then received many letters from readers who actually thanked me and I was surprised, but they then pointed out that they can't read anything which is not full on in support of Israel. And then even more interesting I found was that then an editor sent me an email calling me courageous. And I think that sums up the problem of the debate in Germany. Maybe it is shifting at the moment or it has shifted over the past months. Yet in the beginning, and I would say for quite a long time it, it was not possible to see both sides or to be even quite critical towards the Israeli government without being blamed as anti Semite by certain media organizations, but also by politicians. It was at times quite a nasty discussion, I must say, and I don't even think it reflected the opinion of the German people. So a lot of Germans I know are quite frustrated. And also it doesn't reflect that Germany nowadays is a country of a lot of immigrants who grew up in the Arab world. They have made very different experiences when it comes to Israel. And I think in some ways Germany has to have a more reasonable discussion and not only this black and white debate.
- [28:10]
C
It's almost like the leaders themselves are so locked into the Staats raison that we were describing earlier that they're unable in a public forum to ever go off script.
- [28:21]
E
Well, they're trapped in their own policies.
- [28:24]
C
And that's the, that's a little bit the tragedy here.
- [28:30]
E
I do think that it is changing. So I think, I mean it has taken long enough, but of course the damage is basically done so that it's like a huge damage to the reputation of Germany all over the world. And I was in Cairo a few months ago and they are closely following what the Europeans and also what the Germans are doing. And they're like, why do you want our support when it comes to Russia and Ukraine and what are you doing when it comes to Gaza? I don't think you can compare these two really. I don't agree with that yet. The damage is quite big in my opinion. And I think now it's more like.
- [29:20]
C
Damage control and also the damage to the EU project as well in terms of its ability to project soft power toward its neighbors like Egypt.
- [29:32]
E
I still wonder though why some people expected a very united front from the European Union. It's 27 countries with very different histories, cultures and so on and of course opinions when it comes to and feelings when it comes to the Middle east conflict. So I think it was naive from the start to expect a position. They are so deeply divided. You know, you've got on the one side you've got Belgium, Ireland, Spain, very, very in favor of the Palestinian case and then on the other side you've got Hungary, the Czechs and the Germans, of course, and Austria, who are very much on the Israeli side. So to actually find consensus, I think was never really realistic.
- [30:27]
C
What effect, if any, does the fact that Israeli soldiers recently fired on a registered diplomatic delegation that included a German diplomat, how did that play into the German stance? Was it even remarked upon?
- [30:41]
E
It was. But interestingly, there was quite a discussion on social media, for example, because how you now put it is not how many media organizations put it. They were literally taking the narrative of the Israeli government and they said those were only warning shots. So they put warning shots in quotes and did not call it out as what it was. Right. And I think that's just very telling how we are on every level, very much on the Israeli side. And there's not enough criticism when it comes to the Israeli government not letting any international journalists in. They're really struggling to find the right wording, to find the right stance, I guess. And of course some international journalists very much pointed out how it has been the warning shots for the Germans, how the story was reported in Italy or France and how it was reported in Germany. But to your question, I'm sorry, I don't think this will change anything. And this is not uncommon at all. Even back then when I was there, I was tear gassed twice when I was actually there with other journalists.
- [32:10]
C
So when it came to the tear Gassing. I mean, what kind of protests were. Were you covering or what was the context?
- [32:16]
E
Both times were actually in the West Bank. I tell you about, like one example, it was not a protest or anything. This is, or this used to be, at least when I was there, very daily stuff. You know, in the west bank, when you walked around through some villages, kids would walk home from school, they sort of like throw stones at those towers and then they just get tear gassed.
- [32:44]
C
Throw stones at Israeli military watchtowers.
- [32:47]
E
Yes. To see that daily reality is quite shocking. And a lot of Israeli people have no idea about that because they can't go to the west bank or they wouldn't be allowed to go. Also, a lot of tourists are not being encouraged to go. So for me, it was always a struggle to go back and forth because they don't want you to go.
- [33:13]
C
Yeah, and it's very interesting what you say about the Israelis being quite insulated from this. I mean, their media diet is very sanitized as well. So they don't see this on their TVs.
- [33:25]
E
No, not at all. And this is the Israeli government and they are very secretive when it comes to how they're dealing with these things, also towards their own people. And so we need to kind of like always differentiate between the Israeli government and the people because, like, many don't even know. And at the same time, of course, it's also the other way around. I had a friend who used to work as a lecturer in Ramallah and he was then also expelled and fired basically because he was Jewish. So this goes both ways. And it's a sad reality how both sides hate each other. And I think, like when you now hear Europeans always advocating for a two state solution, I mean, go there and look at the reality. It's basically almost beyond any sort of possibility that this could actually ever happen. Definitely not under this government.
- [34:38]
C
So, Catherine, in early May, we reach this inflection point in Europe in the European Union over Gaza, when the Dutch Foreign Minister Caspar Velkamp steps in. He tells Israel through Dutch national broadcaster NOS that you have the right to defend yourself. But the proportions now seem completely lost. He calls on the EU to investigate Israel's compliance with something called the EU Israel Association Agreement, which is essentially a trade deal which ties trade relations to respect for human rights and democratic principles. The association agreement was signed in 1995 and it entered into force in, in the year 2000. For a Dutch conservative minister, this is Caspar Velkamp. To make this turn is quite something. I mean, Sensitivity around the Holocaust is very high in the Netherlands as well, which lost the vast majority of its Jewish population to the Holocaust. So this really was a turning point.
- [35:41]
E
I would be careful to call it a turning point because, yes, it had huge weight because a Dutch minister or the Netherlands were doing it, who are very strong allies to Israel. They, for example, did not recognize the Palestinian state, Palestinian statehood recently. And yet the people in all countries, they watch the atrocities in Gaza, the suffering and so on. And of course that also then leads to politicians to maybe change their mind. But I don't think actually they changed their minds. So in my opinion, I just think like they wanted to send a message.
- [36:29]
C
Well, let's talk about that, because there is this decision of sorts about this trade agreement, the association agreement. A little bit later in May, the member states actually passed and agreed on a review of this association agreement. How pretty much did the Germans fall when that happened?
- [36:54]
E
Well, they apparently, what I hear, they were very quiet when they discussed the matter during the Foreign Affairs Council.
- [37:03]
C
This is where the foreign affairs ministers get together in Brussels, sit around a table, and sometimes it falls to the ministers, it often falls to the ministers, and in the way that the EU works to take these really quite momentous decisions rather than to the heads of state and government who generally are sitting around talking about broader policy directions. So it's often the ministers meeting in Brussels who take these really big decisions.
- [37:28]
E
Exactly. And they discussed it, let's say, request for a review of that agreement. It got a majority, 17 member states, and it's on the commission to actually do the review. And Kayakallis, the current EU high representative, Europe's foreign minister, if you will, agreed on doing it. And that is actually important to point out, because the Spanish tried to do that already last year, beginning of last year, so more than a year ago, and it did not get the support of a majority. Now, what does that mean? If it goes very much to the end, they could suspend that agreement with lots of consequences, because it is sort of like the legal and institutional framework for political dialogue and economic cooperation between the EU and Israel. So there's a lot of money, but it's also a political thing.
- [38:27]
C
Well, the trade itself is worth something like 45 billion euros a year. That makes the EU Israel's most important trading partner. So calling into question the association agreement carries a certain degree of weight.
- [38:42]
E
Yes, but I cannot see any scenario where a suspension would happen. First of all, you would need a unanimous decision. Germany would never agree on that, like to a suspension. But it's not only Germany, also Austria, Hungary and so on. So, interestingly, there were now some countries like Austria, who even supported the review, and yet they would not support the suspension.
- [39:11]
C
And they said as much?
- [39:12]
E
Well, not really, not publicly, but because the war in Gaza is escalating so much, I think the Dutch, but also many other member states, felt like they had to send out a message to Israel to kind of say, look, we. I mean, they know that they don't really have a big role to play. They have not a huge influence yet. They still have actually quite some tools and some instruments to put at least some pressure on the Israeli government. So that's kind of sending a message.
- [39:50]
C
So all you needed was a majority of the states in order to get this review of the association agreement. But it will take unanimity to actually suspend it.
- [40:01]
E
Exactly.
- [40:02]
C
Yeah.
- [40:02]
E
But also the Commission has to agree to the review, and they did agree. So, I mean, some would say that's at least like some sort of progress, but I could imagine that they just kind of now discuss certain areas of that agreement. So at the moment, the Horizon research program, where Israel is getting quite a lot of support financially, but also in other ways that is, for example, in the debate being mentioned a lot, if it's maybe possible to suspend that or to pause that program, for example. But let's see.
- [40:51]
C
So that's very interesting. I mean, Horizon is about funding scientists and researchers and often technology. And of course, that's a key part of Israel's economy. So that could send quite a strong message, I suppose. So that's the Horizon program. Do we know anything about the timeline for this review that the European Commission is now undertaking? It's been thrown back to the civil servants, to von der Leyen's team to look at this trade agreement. Have they said anything about how long this could take?
- [41:25]
E
Unfortunately not. We were told that it's now starting only, so they don't really know how long it's going to take.
- [41:33]
C
It's extraordinary. And then even after this decision, Ursula von der Leyen still set herself up as being kind of accused of being silent on Gaza. So we already have this pretty big change where the Dutch step in and say, okay, we need to do something that will send a message. It might in the end be symbolic, but it certainly has changed the conversation in Europe about Gaza. But even then, even then, von der Leyen managed to attract criticism for her stance on Gaza.
- [42:08]
E
Well, she didn't have one, right? No, no. Like that, I think, was the biggest criticism that we haven't heard anything from her, there was no big statement for a very long time.
- [42:20]
C
And that was still the case then, because what she did when there was a debate at the European Parliament on Gaza during the month of May, she sent a guy called Glenn Michaliffe, who is the commissioner from Malta, but who is effectively the most junior commissioner. And that's the person who went to the parliament to answer questions from directly elected members on this issue, which is of huge concern for the European public to respond. The optics were just dreadful and it attracted again this criticism that she somehow is running shy of the issue. And she cannot rise to the occasion when it comes to the whole issue of Germany, Israel and the war in.
- [43:12]
E
Gaza, and especially compared to all her speeches on Russia and Ukraine. But I don't even want to assume what she's thinking. I just think there are strategies to keep her out of that whole debate and to kind of say we can't win on this. So let's just not say very much, you know, okay.
- [43:36]
C
We can understand, as a result of our conversation, the reticence of Ursula von der Leyen when it comes to this issue. She takes a lot of criticism for not having been more forthright over the last 20 months of this conflict, especially when it comes to the massive amounts of damage done to Gaza and the huge loss of life there. Tens and thousands of people, many women and children. And she stands accused of a silence. And we can understand her a little bit better perhaps, but nonetheless, she is an emblem of the EU itself. And you can ask the question, well, doesn't she have a special responsibility not to bring the moral dilemma, the cognitive dissonance of the Staats raison as we have described it, and all the difficulties that creates. Doesn't she have a special responsibility not to impose that same problem on the rest of Europe? Shouldn't she show a little bit more forthrightness in helping us overcome this and certainly not sort of embody it? We have somebody very German sitting in a European Union chair, a very big chair. And that has implications.
- [45:01]
E
I can answer that with a question, actually, because the high representative of the European Union was Spanish Josep Borrell. He also came with all his very left Spanish views on the Middle east conflict. So, you know, you have this not only with Ursula von der Leyen, you have that all the time in the eu, Everyone comes with, let's call it baggage, or with some sort of, you know, national views on things. But this has become such a polarized debate. They're so, like, divided that I think for especially the president. She feels like she can't win anything on this matter.
- [45:48]
C
I would come back to that idea that there's another special responsibility in German leadership of Europe, which means that it should not impose the Staats raison on the entirety of the European Union.
- [46:02]
E
But I think it also needs a bit of understanding. Why would Germany or someone like Ursula von der Leyen seriously be on the forefront of the criticism towards Israel? This is just not with our history. Tis not possible.
- [46:27]
D
That'S it for this episode, but one more thing before you go. There's an easy way to become a material supporter of EU Scream. It's simple. You look for eu scream@patreon.com and you pledge what you can. Now, Euscream is non profit. We might occasionally do partnerships and take advertising, and we're grateful to Full Beam Media for an annual grant. But here's the thing. We need your support to bring you more content more regularly. It's your support that helps us delve into this new, darker era in our politics, into how the EU should be responding, and into the thoughts and experiences of people who really know what they're talking about. Small donations to large ones, it's all incredibly appreciated.
- [47:12]
C
It also helps when we get a.
- [47:13]
D
Five star rating at Spotify or a review at Apple. Podcasts and passing on episodes to family, colleagues and friends. That's yet another great way to show support. For more details and for more EU Scream, do please visit EU scream.com Thanks for listening.