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- [00:06]
A
Millions of people in more than 100 countries, they march at Pride festivities every year. Attendees come mostly to express support for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex people. The LGBTQI community. And although Pride is celebrated on every continent, there is a swathe of countries where Pride is still not freely celebrated. Take Russia, where a court last Decade issued a 100 year ban on Pride events. Or Turkey, where police in recent years have been harassing, attacking and detaining activists.
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B
And members of the LGBT community.
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A
And then there's Hungary, which is inside the European Union, but it's out of step with its laws and values. This year, Hungary's liberal Prime Minister, Viktor Orban, said he intended to stop Pride in the capital Budapest, on the pretext of child protection under 18s are supposedly at risk from displays of homosexuality, displays which themselves were banned four years ago. That's a direct echo of Russia's anti LGBT statute on protecting children and traditional family values, signed into law by Vladimir Putin more than a decade ago. This month, Hungarian police duly imposed the Budapest ban that Orban had called for. And they added a dystopian facial recognition technology. Attendees ID'd at Budapest Pride could face fines of €500. They also could face neo fascist thugs from far right splinter groups. But the mayor of Budapest says that this year's event is going ahead this weekend just the same. After all, Budapest has had Pride events for the best part of the past three decades. It's also worth recalling that Pride was born out of state repression. The first Pride marches were held in the early 1970s in a handful of US cities to mark the anniversary of what are called the Stonewall Riots. That name, Stonewall, comes from a bar, the Stonewall Inn, in New York City's Greenwich Village. The gay and transgender patrons of the Stonewall had grown sick of police harassment and abuse, and their uprising in 1969 still marks a key moment for civil rights movements everywhere. One beneficiary of such hard won victories is Mark Angel. He is one of five so called quaestors at the European Parliament, overseeing matters directly affecting the chamber's 720 members. Mark is a socialist from Luxembourg and he's also co president of the European Parliament's Intergroup on LGBT Rights. For him, this weekend's Budapest Pride events amount to a protest. A protest against bogus limits on freedom of assembly in Hungary, and a protest against an international anti gender movement backed by Russia, supported by US ultra conservatives and aimed at polarizing societies and weakening democracy.
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C
No migrants more in. No Europe without Christianity. An alliance also With Russia.
- [03:37]
A
Welcome to EU Scream, the podcast that guides you through stories coming from the eu. We talk about the news a bit differently and with people who really know what they're talking about. I'm James Kantor. This is episode 117, Countdown to Budapest Pride, with member of the European Parliament and co president of the LGBTIQ intergroup, Mark Angel.
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B
Mark, why is Budapest Pride 2025 a pivotal moment for Europe? We have war in Europe, we have war in the Middle east. And Budapest Pride 2025 still is a focus of very significant attention.
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A
Right?
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B
And not only in LGBTQI circles, far beyond that.
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C
Well, it is a European matter this time. You're very right. It's more than LGBTI rights. It's about rule of law, democracy, and fundamental rights, which are really values which are enshrined in our treaties and the basis the foundations of the European Union, which is now more than 70 years old. It's also about the Russian influence and about a playbook that Orban wants to write. And if he passes with all his new laws, other member states might be tempted to see. Oh, yeah, we can try that too. And this is why I think this year, this Pride is a huge protest to defend our Article 2 fundamental rights, Rule of law and democracy within the European Union, and to recall that these are the foundations of our union.
- [05:14]
B
How Does Budapest Pride 2025 also fit with the decades old civil rights struggle for LGBT people? What, for example, is the resonance with, say, the Stonewall uprising of the late 1960s and the legacy of violence, harassment from the period after that?
- [05:34]
C
I mean, Stonewall was an important moment. It was the first time people said equality is a human right. And it was the fight against discrimination. And there was many discrimination in many democracies in the world. And so Stonewalls, we owe them a lot. The fact that I had never a problem as a gay man, I owe it to those who fought for Stonewall. And this is why I continued this fight, because the trans people, the intersex people, who are the most vulnerable within the LGBT community, they owe it. And we have to continue that battle. And of course, we have witnessed backlashes. There is the so called international anti gender movement, which is very well financed, very well organized, and it is like a gift which fell from the sky to the far right movement. They picked it up and they use it to divide society and they work with fear, etc. They scapegoat the LGBTI community. They talk about an ideology. Listen, there is no LGBTI ideology. There is gay agenda or lesbian agenda. If you fight for gay rights, lesbian rights, trans rights, intersex rights, or even women's rights. These are human rights, and it has nothing to do with ideology. But they portray it a bit like this, and they're very successful with this. And it's just about anti discrimination, nothing more. No LGBTI person wants more rights. It's about equal rights and stopping discrimination, stopping hate speech, which often leads to hate crime. It's also a matter of security and safety for the community.
- [07:09]
B
In terms of the violence and harassment, though, that kind of goes back to the Stonewall era. I mean, here I'd note that when it comes to Budapest Pride 2025, repression comes perhaps in a new dystopian form in the shape of facial recognition software that might be used by the police to identify attendees. We're seeing an evolution of repression.
- [07:35]
C
I hope that the police will be reasonable and not become violent. So many international guests, high level political guests, that would be a wrong sign. But of course facial recognition will be used. And this is also something where we do not think that this facial recognition rules from Hungary comply with the Artificial Intelligence act and with our GDPR data protection legislation. And there is clear case law from the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. There was a similar case against Russia where they also used this facial recognition. And the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg found that the use of highly intrusive recognition technology to identify and arrest participants for taking part in peaceful protests, and that Pride is a peaceful protest, was a violation. And so I draw this parallel to this court case against Russia where there was. There has been prides forbidden in Russia.
- [08:30]
B
Prohibited for a hundred years by a court in Moscow. To have a pride in. Absolutely crazy.
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C
What are they afraid of?
- [08:39]
B
Great question. So just back to the links between what Viktor Orban is attempting in Budapest by banning Pride and the anti LGBTQI initiatives in Russia and other anti democratic states. There are these international networks that are anti LGBT and they are part of efforts to undermine liberal democracy in Europe. Right. It goes far beyond sexual orientation questions.
- [09:09]
C
It is. I mean, you saw the influence in the US elections, presidential election of the Heritage foundation. And they are linked in an international network. They have, for example, the alliance for Freedom, which is the counterpart of the Birth control and Sexual Reproductive Rights association in the us. They have offices in Brussels. They are trying to come and influence. They're having actors in the member states. Even in my member state, Luxembourg, where we have same sex marriage, voted in the parliament 15 years ago by a huge majority. Even the conservatives voted in favor. They brought A petition to ban LGBTI content from schools. And they used very legal, special, specific attacks. So it was very difficult for the petition committee and the parliament to say, we cannot accept this petition because it's discriminatory. And they use people to bring these petitions with no digital footprint. These are tactics which there is a lot of research about this anti gender movement. Now we know how they are financed, how they are being organized and they are working. They are trying to go in all the member states now and even in the institutions to bring us back into patriarchy. It's often then extremists, religious extremists from different religious, who join forces to attack these rights, women's rights, LGBTI rights. And it's a pattern.
- [10:34]
B
Also dozens of MEPs, including importantly you, as co president of the LGBT Intergroup at the European Parliament, you're expected to attend Budapest Pride. Now, that for you is an act in defense of democracy in the eu. Can you put some more specifics on that defensive democracy element?
- [11:00]
C
Of course, it's about the right to assembly, because you can never ban people coming together and protesting on the street. This is a bad sign. And they could use this law, they use it now for the ban of the Pride on child protection. But they can use this argument of child protection. Imagine, workers would go on a strike and then they say, oh, this is near a school. You cannot do it as child protection. So this is not good. But our sign going to Budapest is also to support the activists, the community. But also there have been democratic parties in Hungary which have been very vocal on this. For example, my colleague Lara Dobra from Democratic Coalition, and our former colleagues from Momentum, the Liberal Party in Hungary. And they are still in the National Parliament in Hungary. And here they've always been very vocal to defend LGBTI rights. And so we are there to support them, our colleagues from progressive parties. But also, and more importantly also the activists, the NGOs, like Vicky Radhani, who is the president of Budapest Prize, she's a hero for many of us, and Gergey Korachoi. So the mayor, who has been very courageous of Budapest, so also to support him because he also defends European values. European values are also defended on a local level, on a regional level, by a municipality. And this is a good sign. And therefore we go there, there to protest and defend our rights.
- [12:32]
B
Now Hungarian authorities have banned Pride. The Budapest mayor is circumventing that ban. So what kind of legal gray area are we in?
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C
I believe we're in a big gray area because there is still legal Disputes. I think the mayor has found a way, saying the way I organize a manifestation, it's my prerogative, and he believes that he's right. So there's still legal procedures ongoing. The police has interpreted it differently, so we'll have to see what happens. But we will have also security briefings here from the Parliament before we leave, of course, by our Director General of Safety. But anyway, we have to go there and protest and be there. And there is no other way otherwise would win. And that is not good for Europe, not good for Hungary, not good for Europe.
- [13:32]
B
What do those security briefings usually consist of?
- [13:36]
C
Well, maybe they will tell us how we should behave, and we've never had that before because we've been to many prides, but there has never been a security issue so far where I went. But that's only later. So I cannot tell you already in advance what they will tell us.
- [13:55]
B
Who from the EU institutions has immunity from prosecution by Hungary for attending Budapest Pride and who doesn't? I mean, we're talking about €500 fines for attending for those caught on camera, which of course raises these questions about who's already in their image databases. And then there are also reports that people playing a role in organizing, continuing to organize the event and in defiance of the government ban, might even face prison sentences.
- [14:28]
C
I don't believe that we have immunity, but we go because we believe that the whole ban is based on laws which are to us against EU legislation. And you know, the Commission brought Hungary to the court, the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, on that law of 2021, on the so called Child Protection.
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B
Law, which is, we call it the Propaganda law, which is the.
- [14:55]
C
Of the Russian anti LGBTI propaganda law. And for the first time 16 member states supported the Commission. This is also something new. And I think now, after what happened, how the provocation of Orban, I'm sure the number of 16 would rise up to over 2022, even nowadays supporting this. And there was a very big moment. There was the Advocate General's opinion, which was very clear and which said this law is not only going against the E Commerce Directive and Services Directive, but so the whole fundamental rights legislation we have Article two. And that is what is so important. And that is why we have to go there. As I said in the beginning, it's about our foundations. And if we give up our foundations, if we give up rule of law, democracy, fundamental rights, Europe will fall apart. And therefore it is also to avoid that others will follow Orban's playbook back.
- [15:52]
B
To the Specifics of the event, though, if ordinary Hungarians and visitors, let's say people from the EU institutions do have to pay fines or, you know, even if they're jailed, can the EU support them financially or with legal help? And you, as a quaestor at the European Parliament, you oversee the financial matters of MEPs. Do you have a budget for this eventuality?
- [16:15]
C
I don't think we have a budget for that. And I think every member who goes must know that he or she can have a fine of a certain amount and we take that into account when we go, otherwise we wouldn't go. And somebody who's not willing to pay that, if ever we would be fined then. But we consider these fines illegal anyway. And let's see the legal battleground which is going on. It can maybe change tomorrow. Again, we don't know yet. But what is even more terrible in this law is that the organizers can be charged, can go to prison for this. Can you imagine in 2025, in a member state of the European Union, organizers of a peaceful demonstration of Pride have to go to prison. This is unbelievable. And therefore we have to be there to support them.
- [17:09]
B
And just on the safety considerations around Budapest Pride, I want to ask about the possibility of agents, profocateur and hooligans that are aligned with radical nationalists and right wing extremists, including these splinter groups from the neo fascist Jobbik movement. These are going to be considerations for people who are attending, I trust in.
- [17:34]
C
The Hungarians and I have been to Budapest Pride a few times and I tell you, I've never felt unsafe. And there was a few counter movements with a few people here and there. And I'm back from Sophia Pride also last weekend and there was also counter manifestations, but they were afterwards and I saw that that was really small groups. So they have their own walks. Yeah, they have their own walks. And I wouldn't. I feel safe. And I think that the majority of the Hungarian people are peaceful people and I'm not afraid. And I mean that's the police role then to protect. To protect people and to act against violence. So let's hope that there will be no agent Provocat there to turn this into a violent protest march. All the ones who are going from the European Parliament, all the ones who are going from the member states, from national parliaments, from civil society, we are peaceful. We are going. A pride is a peaceful march, a peaceful protest. And that's our intention. So I'm confident that this will not end up in crazy violence. Let's Hope it at least. Yes.
- [18:57]
B
Now, the office of the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, reportedly informed European commissioners that they should not travel to Budapest Pride. This was a scoop from the news outlet. You're active. So, Mark, what, in your view, is the reason that von der Leyen is being so restrained about this particular Pride event? I mean, she usually positions herself as a champion of LGBT rights. And this sudden, selective, less enthusiastic stance, to say the least, opens her up to charges of pink washing. Pink washing being, in this case, the kind of selective use of LGBT pr, even if your actual practices are not genuinely inclusive and supportive all the time.
- [19:42]
C
I really hope that this all was a misunderstanding, because I still believe. I mean, Ursula van der Leyen had strong words in some of her State of the Union speeches for the Community, and I hope this is still the case. Maybe she was a bit reluctant in the beginning, and then there was misunderstanding, but the Commission should have immediately said when that article came out, this is not true. If it hadn't been true, it's a pity. It took a few days. We wrote a letter and then they. So I don't know really what happened inside there, but the good news is, and that is what counts, it has been announced that Commissioner for Equality Hajal Abib will be present in Budapest. And this is a sign. We had also meetings with Commissioner McGrath. The Commissioner for Justice, who also had in the plenary meetings last week in Strasbourg, was very positive. He apologized. He couldn't come himself because of his agenda, but he was very supportive. So really, let's forget this episode. And we cannot have a division between the Commission and the Parliament on these issues.
- [20:46]
B
I hear you on wanting to turn the page on this, but let me put it this way. I can see how von der Leyen might be keeping a low profile so as not to give Orban ammunition to attack Brussels.
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C
Not only Orban, Prime Minister Meloni and her. You know, the ECR group.
- [21:05]
B
This is one of the far right groups.
- [21:06]
C
Yes, one of the far right groups.
- [21:08]
B
Who President von der Leyen is increasingly relying on for majorities.
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C
Italy is an important country, but how.
- [21:17]
B
Big a factor is Peter Magyar in the way that Europe's conservatives and von der Leyen are trying to keep a distance from Budapest Pride 2025 and here I should explain that Peter Magyar is the conservative politician who has the best hope for beating Viktor Orban in elections next year. But Magyar also is in von der Leyen's political family, the conservative epp, European People's Party. At the same time, we know Magyar will want to appear as conservative as possible, untainted by Brussels and EU values and LGBT rights, in order to peel away support for Orban and win in Hungary. So my question is von der Leyen playing down Pride as a sort of tactical matter to help Magyar to enhance the chances of her own right wing ally getting elected? To what degree is she playing politics at the expense of the fundamental rights of LGBT Europeans?
- [22:12]
C
Well, it is a political game. You used the right word. It's a political game. And it's not only Ursula van der Leyen who plays that game, also Manfred Weber, who is the group leader of the EPP group, the center right group in the Parliament, where the TISA party, which is this new party which popped out of nothing. And Peter Magyar was one of the Orban followers, married to one of his major ministers. He taped his wife in the kitchen and that's where he'd be, you know. But there is some colleagues here from that party who are doing a good work here in the parliament, I must say that. But I do not agree with Peter Magyar's position of being totally neutral on these questions. And it's interesting to analyze how they.
- [22:58]
B
On LGBT questions?
- [22:59]
C
Yes, on the LGBT questions and other questions also concerning the budget, etc. But that is Epps. I'm not in that group. They have to deal with their own conscience on these issues. In their group, EPP is for me still a very pro European party. And defending LGBTI rights is a very pro European, pro democratic issue. So they have the feeling a bit they are trying not to, to scare voters, etc. And on the other hand, I also don't understand that activists sometimes are not supporting other opposition parties which have been very active, like Momentum, the Social Democrats, the Democratic coalition, etc. But maybe this is what Hungary needs for the moment, just to get rid of Orban. Is that the speculation? It's a political game, you know?
- [23:55]
B
Precisely. I mean, either way, no matter what the reason was for von der Leyen's initial reticence, it seems to be more evidence that the moral compass of the EU is increasingly driven or even hijacked by these psychodramas over the influence of.
- [24:13]
C
Far right politics, the whitewashing of the far right politics has left its marks. I remember 20 years ago, you remember the first government where centre right party participated with the far right party was Austria, Joerg Haida from fpu and at the time ministers from center right parties, left council meetings. If a far right politician came in. And now you have this member states, governments where they work together. And this is a bit of whitewashing of the far right. And that becomes very dangerous.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah, you have to push them out of the way just to get to your seat now in the plenary.
- [24:57]
C
And I come from a country which has been very successful with big, what we call grand coalitions between Social Democrats and Christian Democrats for many years. We had also other coalitions which were more progressive. But I think you can find common ground on European affairs. I mean, the founding fathers of the European Union and those who really made progress in the European Union, like Willy Brandt, Mitterrand, Helmut Kohl, Jacques chirac, Jacques Delors, etc. They came from these two political families and some liberals like Simone Wey also, and also the Greens now are pro European. And we should use this force to bring Europe forward. And that's the actual von der Leyen coalition. Of course, we have differences and we have to find compromise. This is the European way. I mean.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, all of this kind of gets to this other question, which is, you know, is it really true that her coalition is falling apart?
- [25:56]
C
I mean, she shouldn't play with the fire. If she doesn't play with fire, the coalition will not fall apart.
- [26:03]
B
What would be the most explosive issue.
- [26:08]
C
That she shouldn't play with while giving up on fundamental rights and women's rights and the union of equality? I mean, she was very vocal on the union of equality. And this, and also from the Social Democratic side is continuing also to deepen the social dimension of the union. Of course, we agree with her on competitivity, we agree on her on defence. We are in a very difficult geopolitical situation. Defense has become important, but cohesion policies, investing in the people is also important.
- [26:43]
B
So don't redirect cohesion funds into defense.
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C
Yes, too much. And keep it for hospitals, keep it for people, Keep it for things where people see that Europe is profiting. Them too, that people see that Europe is not only a single market where businesses profit. We might have in 10 years, maybe the most competitive economy, again, best equipped armies, but we will have 27 far right governments because nothing has been done for the people.
- [27:09]
B
So angels, red lines. Don't mess with the union of equality and don't mess with cohesion policy and regional funds. Okay, just to wrap up, what will you do when you get back from Budapest, back to European Parliament meetings in Brussels and Strasbourg? Is there more scope for action by the European Parliament against the European Commission and Ursula von der Leyen for failing to fulfill their obligations Under EU law, to stand up for EU law, for failing to enforce the law against Hungary.
- [27:44]
C
We will continue to have a dialogue with the Commission on that. We're not there yet, and we will see what will happen. They know that they have to do something, but sometimes the machinery inside these legal procedures, they always want to be 100% sure before they go to an infringement procedure. And I think here we have to speed up this process.
- [28:07]
B
For freedom of assembly.
- [28:08]
C
For freedom of assembly.
- [28:10]
B
And are there other ones that you.
- [28:11]
C
Well, freedom of assembly. And we have to also make sure that the Commission reacts against every temptation in member states to cut on civil society. Like this law in Hungary now, the public transparency Law, which is like the foreign agent Russian law.
- [28:27]
B
Yeah. I mean, it discriminates against nonprofit organization.
- [28:32]
C
This is very important. And here again, they're spinning a story that NGOs are not transparent. NGOs are important actors, they're allies, and we need them and they need funding.
- [28:45]
B
But for the conservatives and libertarians, who are increasingly seemingly influenced by, let's say, the US way of looking at things in terms of freeing the market, it seems like the New Deal is that we will do sovereignty and give more power to governments and diminish the power of those who are the watchdogs. And this is a very disturbing trend if you're on the side of civil society and if you're on the side of free media, for example, which helps fulfill that watchdog function. So the balance is off.
- [29:21]
C
Yeah, the balance is off. And we have to bring this balance back on. We have to shift to make sure that this balance doesn't go more off and bring it back to normality, that there is contre pouvoir, as you say in French. And we have also to defend our legislation, which we had on technology, we have to defend the Digital Services act, the Digital Market Act. We have to continue working on the AI act and make sure that this is implemented and that it can set standards like we did with the gdpr. This is also a role we have as Europeans, because all this is linked to democracy, to protect ourselves. And also we have to be better in narratives. You know, the dsa, the Digital Services act, the far right, they say the Digital Surveillance Act. It is totally not the Digital Surveillance Act. It's protecting us. And there's these new phenomenons coming up, like the anti gender movement, this whole movement on toxic masculinity, these influencers who can spread hate and lies and fake news to young people. This is dangerous. And then they're telling us, you know, too much regulation. Too much regulation that the tech will. But you know, I tell sometimes people, you know why we regulate, for example brakes of cars and trucks? Is to save lives. Lives. That's why we regulate brakes. And in the tech world, we have to regulate things too. To protect minors, to protect people from hate speech, from harassment, from bullying, etc. So regulation per se is nothing bad if it's done in a smart way. Not too complicated to avoid bureaucracy. Yes, we have to cut bureaucracy, but we cannot deregulate.
- [31:05]
B
Thank you, Mark.
- [31:06]
C
You're welcome.
- [31:11]
D
That's it for this episode. But one more thing before you go. There's an easy way to become a material supporter of EU screen. It's simple. You look for EU scream@patreon.com and you pledge what you can. Now, EU scream is non profit. We might occasionally do partnerships and take advertising, and we're grateful to Full Beam Media for an annual grant. But here's the thing. We need your support to bring you more content more regularly. It's your support that helps us delve into this new, darker era in our politics, into how the EU should be responding, and into the thoughts and experiences of people who really know what they're talking about. Small donations to large ones, it's all incredibly appreciated. It also helps when we get a five star rating at Spotify or a review at Apple. Podcasts and passing on episodes to family, colleagues and friends. That's yet another great way to show support. For more details and for more EU Screen Scream, do, please visit EU scream.com Thanks for listening.