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- [00:04]
Pavel Šeliga
No migrants more in no Europe without Christianity. An alliance also with Russia.
- [00:14]
James Cantor
Welcome to EU Screen, the podcast that guides you through stories coming from the eu. We talk about the news a bit differently and with people who really know what they're talking about. I'm James Cantor. This is episode 119, post Truth Nation. Hi, we're back. So where to begin? With so much happening, a lot of it very disturbing. There are no easy answers. But one trend that stood out for me at least these past weeks, is how that line between what's real and what's fake seems to be getting more and more blurry. There's Donald Trump, lying as usual, but now while thwarting the media and parts of government that are meant to keep him honest. And there's Netanyahu and his fanatical coalition partners denying that they're starving Gaza and shooting at food sites, despite the abundant and horrific evidence. And though nowhere near the same league of heinousness, there's also the president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen. She's been shamelessly stretching everyone's credulity, insisting she got a decent trade deal from the US when in reality she got rolled, trying to keep US support for Ukraine, but capitulating to Trump's tariff shakedown and failing to keep the US assault on EU digital standards at bay. It's a front she stubbornly maintained, as in this exchange with a journalist.
- [01:50]
Pavel Šeliga
How much did security concerns matter when EU agreed to an imbalanced trade deal with us? I think this is a good, as I said, not a perfect deal.
- [02:02]
James Cantor
But there is no linkage between the two, no linkage with Ukraine, despite von der Leyen's own staff confirming the link, of course. Yes, too much is at stake for Europe not to work with Trump. We get that. But von der Leyen left the humiliation of Europe so poorly explained that skepticism about the EU has only proliferated. A creeping sense that von der Leyen is untrustworthy was amplified by an even more recent incident where an apparent threat to her aircraft from Russia seems to have been wildly exaggerated. In reality, any disruption of her plane's radio systems posed few dangers, and the flight landed just a few minutes behind schedule. Paper maps for emergency navigation, as was originally reported, would not have been needed. It's not just big headline makers prevaricating in plain sight other forms of post truth messaging where reality gets trampled are rampant. Lawmakers scoffing at climate science, health officials discrediting vaccines, ministers making tolerance of LGBT into some kind of plot. These are global phenomena, of course, but Europe is increasingly a hotbed and nowhere more so, it seems, than Slovakia. Slovakia. If it's not the wild water that surprises you, the underground water certainly will. Slovakia, what a surprise. The Central European state borders Austria on its west and Ukraine to the east. It exited communism in 1989 and it left Czechoslovakia in 1993, whereupon it entered a calamitous period of criminality and political chaos. Then US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright called Slovakia a black hole at the heart of Europe. Eventually, reforms were made and 21 years ago, Slovakia successfully acceded to the EU. But concerns linger about the rule of law, particularly after the execution style murder of the investigative journalist Jan Kutsiak and his fiance. Kutsiak had been examining connections between oligarchs, the Italian mafia and Slovak politicians. Seven years later, the apparent instigators still have not been convicted. In the wake of those killings, Robert Fico, a pro Russia prime minister, was forced to step down. The murder of Jan Kutzyag and Martina Kushnirova was at breaking point when we realized, okay, now they are ready even to kill. But Fico made a comeback. He was re elected two years ago to serve a fourth term, winning on his opposition to pandemic restrictions and on ending military support for Ukraine. Like Trump, Fico is a highly polarizing figure, comfortable with foreign autocrats, closely aligned with Viktor Orban and pally with Vladimir Putin, whom he's met three times in the past 12 months. And rather than reducing dependency on the Kremlin, Slovakia is reportedly increasing imports of Russian gas. Fico is keen to butter up Beijing too. After all, Chinese investments would make Slovakia less beholden to the EU and to those EU rules that Fico dislikes. Also, like Trump, Fico has survived an assassination attempt. And again, like Trump, Fico is increasingly surrounded by ultra nationalist reactionaries, white supremacists and delusional post truthers. They are part of what makes FICO's current government so singularly shocking. Some of what follows contains pretty colorful language, so if you've got kids listening, maybe now's a good time for headphones. Take for starters Fico himself. He demonizes NGOs. He personally supported Elon Musk's hobbling of U.S. foreign aid. And last October, in a furious press conference, he said journalists were possessed by the devil.
- [06:33]
Pavel Šeliga
And worse, since September 2023, you have not left us alone for a minute. From the first day, as soon as the results of the parliamentary elections came out, you went like bloodthirsty bastards against us and you are doing it from morning to night.
- [06:51]
James Cantor
Fico also loudly blames the media and the political opposition for the May 2024 attempt on his life, as in this February speech in Maryland at cpac, the US conference series that's de rigueur for the far right international. Such dangerous radicalization is now typical for liberal and progressive ideologies, which, in addition to this new quality of political conduct.
- [07:18]
Pavel Šeliga
Promote abnormalities in everyday life and present.
- [07:21]
James Cantor
Them as normal and healthy. Let the attempt to assassinate your president or me be the proof of my claim. In fact, the attempted assassination was carried out by a lone 72 year old Slovak man angry that the prime minister wasn't doing more to stop corruption and help Ukraine. But the refrain that centrists and progressives are somehow responsible for this kind of political violence is only getting louder. Just this month, MAGA and Donald Trump played the same blame game, maliciously linking the assassination of Charlie Kirk to America's legitimate and democratic opposition. A little paradoxically, Fico still makes a show of being an anti fascist. His smear party brands itself as social democratic, and Fitzo himself can still muster up a socialist spiel. Yes, I am a leftist. I am a social democrat, but not of Brussels kind. First of all, I am a Slovak social democrat, or as I sometimes like to say, rural socialist. A social democrat from the village. It's quite a stretch. In reality, Fico's smear is now beyond the pale of the Party of European Socialists. They suspended SMER two years ago when FICO formed a coalition with the far right Slovak National Party. There had been a clear divergence of values, the socialists said. But Fico has shown no signs of softening his policies. Instead, he's redoubled efforts to reshape Slovakia and he's aggressively pursuing that goal with Orban and Trump as north stars with a readiness to throw Ukraine under the bus and with help from ultra conservative and ultra nationalist allies. Take Rudolf Huliak. He's FICO's Minister for Tourism and sports. Huliak is strongly pro Russian and anti NATO. And he's a climate change skeptic. The respected former president of Slovakia, Zuzana Chapatova, had refused to appoint Huliak as a minister. Huliac's unseriousness, his profound unsuitability for office, are borne out by his behavior. Like when he said gay bars and the act of gay sex generate climate warming gases. And last year when he denigrated and repeatedly trolled a female member of the Slovak Parliament because she supports a woman's right to choose.
- [10:06]
Pavel Šeliga
When an MP says that according to the criminal code of the Slovak Republic, a fetus doesn't deserve to live, then this woman deserves nothing else but to.
- [10:16]
James Cantor
Be labeled.
- [10:18]
Pavel Šeliga
A bee. She does not honor the basic questions of life given by God to the human race.
- [10:29]
James Cantor
Despite a furore, Huliak actually doubled down on the insult, insisting he'd been complimentary rather than spreading misogyny. In an interaction with a reporter, he tries to justify himself, saying that in his youth he and his friends used the same word for attractive women. Huliak then reprised his profanity inside the Slovak Parliament. I love the woman I live with.
- [10:55]
Pavel Šeliga
And I apologize in the evening to my bitch in the yard.
- [11:06]
James Cantor
It's kind of stunning. But Huliac was made a minister in March this year after FICO went ahead with a deal to stabilize his government. Next up, Peter Kotlar, a medical doctor appointed by FICO's government to review how Slovakia managed Covid. Among Kotlar's declarations is that there had in fact been no pandemic in Slovakia, despite records showing more than 20,000 deaths. Kotlar has gone on to say that the MRNA vaccines, the ones that saved so many lives, should be suspended from use. And that directly echoes RFK Jr. The notorious anti vaccine activist Donald Trump has put in charge of U.S. health care and with whom Kotlar claims to be in correspondence. In May, Kotlar told reporters that vaccinated Slovaks had been treated like corn, genetically modified corn, and that the country's gene pool had been altered by MRNA vaccines.
- [12:13]
Pavel Šeliga
If one has to say this in a human way, be it ugly way, Moderna and Pfizer turned the vaccinated people into GMOs. They were manipulating people like they manipulate corn. Without people's awareness of this, Slovaks, we are not corn. This is an absolute scandal in contempt of scientific knowledge and of human rights. The integrity of the Slovak genetic pool has been tampered with.
- [12:53]
James Cantor
The assembled journalists pushed back. What proof did Kotlar have of any of this? Kotlar responded that security concerns meant that he could only share details with justice officials. Kotlar then went on to say that other laboratories in other countries did similar analyses, but that those countries governments made sure that those analyses never saw the light of day. Kotlar then asked his audience to assume a suspicious scenario involving pharmaceutical companies, the World Health Organization and the Davos World Economic Forum. Which prompts one of the journalists to ask, had all countries been in on this conspiracy?
- [13:43]
Pavel Šeliga
I would call it like this. At this stage Right now we are at the level of cooperation Slovakia and the us, given that the FBI is investigating many of these measures.
- [14:01]
James Cantor
Then there's the Slovak government's approach to nature. Slovakia's State Secretary for the Environment is Philippe Kufa. Cufa also helps lead the Slovak nationalists who are part of fico's ruling coalition. In an interaction with a journalist last year, Kufa ridiculed concerns about endangered species.
- [14:23]
Pavel Šeliga
We're harming protected species all the time. For example, when you get in your.
- [14:27]
James Cantor
Car and drive to your newsroom, you.
- [14:30]
Pavel Šeliga
Will run over five protected flies. We don't have protected flies. There are no protected flies.
- [14:37]
James Cantor
Kufa blanks at first at the journalist's question. In fact, he looks a bit like a deer frozen in headlights. On another occasion this May, Kufa is asked by the same journalist about proposals to water down nature protection. Kufa ends up commenting on what the journalist is wearing, and he then resorts to sexual innuendo.
- [15:02]
Pavel Šeliga
That's great. You're wearing a green outfit. You are matching with hunting and Ranger gear. Mrs. Torokova, did you develop an inclination? Do you have an inclination towards forest rangers?
- [15:17]
James Cantor
Next up, Lukas Makala. Makala is the influential secretary General at the Slovak Ministry of Culture. He's long been associated with conspiracies like airplanes that spray mind controlling chemicals. Makala is also, it seems, flat earth. Curious. His views became even more widely known last year when a TV reporter asked him why flat earthers deserved a platform. Answering the reporter, Makala sows some additional doubts about the verifiability of science.
- [15:54]
Pavel Šeliga
Have you been in the universe? You weren't. Me neither.
- [16:01]
James Cantor
Coming to Makala's defense was his boss, Martina Shimkovikova. She is a former TV presenter fired in 2015 for denigrating refugees. She then worked for an online channel with a reputation for spreading disinformation. That channel, TV Slovan, was founded by Peter Kotlar, the anti vaxxer, and it regularly featured Rudolph Huliak, the bigot and climate change skeptic. Shimkovikova also is well known for her homophobic outbursts, including her admonitions on the evils of wearing latex. Under Robert Fico, she's Slovakia's Minister of Culture, and last year she told an interviewer that Makala's flat earth response had been portrayed unfairly. But she says it's still okay to give airtime to such ideas. Indeed, for Shimkovacova, who as Culture Minister has responsibility for Slovak public television, it's up to viewers to make up their own minds. No matter whether the content is brain rot or not.
- [17:08]
Pavel Šeliga
But if someone comes along and says that there is, for example, a UFO and that he saw it, that he is studying it, that he is some kind of UFO ologist, let him tell me about it. But whether I will believe it or not, that is my business.
- [17:23]
James Cantor
But I don't believe in 75 genders. That's very MAGA, very aligned with allowing outrageous and harmful opinions on the grounds of free speech. It's basically the J.D. vance and Elon Musk shtick. Also very maga is the way Shim Kovakova sees shadowy forces in the media. These forces are supposedly depriving audiences of a full spectrum of opinions, and she says it's time to take away their funding. But where Shimkovacova gets really vicious is towards the LGBTQI community. No same sex marriage, no adoption by same sex couples. Basically zero tolerance for trans curious. And for that extra dollop of cruelty, she seems to delight in making LGBT seem frightening.
- [18:17]
Pavel Šeliga
We are in such an amoral rock.
- [18:19]
James Cantor
Bottom in the present days that we.
- [18:21]
Pavel Šeliga
Allow that on our streets, that they run around in latex, that they show how to put on a condom, that children have to look at that.
- [18:30]
James Cantor
And then finally it comes out. Shimkovacova's disturbing views about LGBT and the preservation of of the white race.
- [18:40]
Pavel Šeliga
We heterosexuals, we can create the future because we can create children. Europe is dying.
- [18:47]
James Cantor
No new children are being born because.
- [18:49]
Pavel Šeliga
There is a push for LGBT here. And it's strange that this is the white race.
- [18:59]
James Cantor
There are additional reasons why the presence of someone like Shimkovacova in an EU government is unsettling. Early last year, she restored cooperation with Russia and Belarus after cultural ties were placed on hold following Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. She then sacked the heads of the country's key cultural institutions, the Slovak National Gallery and the Slovak National Theater. Her ministry also issued a list of so called risky books, including works by the philosopher Slavo Zizek and rather bizarrely, the British pulp thriller writer Frederick Forsyth. But it's her moves against public media, namely Slovak TV and radio, that have generated some of the most concern. Concern that Slovakia is the next EU member state after Hungary, to be hurtling toward a form of European autocracy. Concerned that the levers of democracy are being abused, to turn public institutions like the state broadcaster into political weapons and to tilt the playing field against the opposition. In Slovakia, the bullying of the media and civil society may already be in full swing. But the media and civil society are not on the sidelines, at least not yet. What many of them now want is for the European Union to step up and to enforce its laws, specifically a new European Media Freedom Act. That act entered into full force in August, and it's designed to stop, among other things, political interference in public service media. In other words, the kinds of abuse underway in Slovakia. But whether the European Commission will take action, that's still unclear. Like leaders of other would be autocracies, FICO uses strategies to feign compliance and that could throw up roadblocks to enforcement. And then there are the geopolitical concerns. What if Slovakia border with Ukraine, remember, gets pushed further into the Kremlin's orbit? Pavel Shalai of the press freedom group Reporters Without Borders says that's the wrong question. In reality, a failure to act would expose Slovakia to yet more post truth pro Russia messaging. Messaging of the kind that ultimately weakens the EU's ability to defend Ukraine and itself. Failure to act would also set a troubling precedent, making it harder to uphold media freedom in other countries in future, including in next door Czechia, where another Trump and Orban ally, Andrei Babis, is expected to win power in October. The situation amounts to a race against time, with autocratically minded leaders moving faster than ever to hijack democracies. Few people are monitoring the situation in the region more closely than Pavel, who's now based in Prague, but who grew up in the Slovak capital, Bratislava.
- [22:13]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes, it's personal, of course. I'm trying to keep a certain professional distance and it's good that I don't work on these issues alone at rsf, but with the whole team. And I have to say that by now, seven years since the killing of Jan Kuciak, people at RSF are very much aware of the situation in Slovakia. This killing of the journalist and of his fiance at their home was a transformational moment for me because I realized as well how fragile our freedoms in Slovakia have been and how much more we have to do to defend them. And this is something that's been motivating my work on press freedom issues in the EU and beyond.
- [23:06]
James Cantor
Pavel, did you know Jan Kutsiak?
- [23:09]
Pavel Šeliga
What I can say from the communication that we had is he was very professional and very polite and I'm sure that if he was alive, he would be a great senior journalist by now, actually in Slovakia, leading many others, and he was actually teaching journalism as well. So it's a big loss. This killing of one journalist is a huge loss because in this country you can count investigative journalists on the fingers of your two hands.
- [23:43]
James Cantor
Speaking of Jan Kutsiak, what is the state of play in the case involving this execution style murder of an investigative journalist, Jan Kuciak and his fiance? These killings in 2018, they made news around the world, right? And Robert Fico was forced to step down as Prime Minister. But Fico is back and seven years later, the apparent instigators of the killings still have not been convicted.
- [24:13]
Pavel Šeliga
Well, first let's look at what's been done. The hitmen and intermediaries were definitely convicted and they are serving long prison sentences. This is very important. Yes, the suspected mastermind has been twice acquitted and right now we're waiting for another trial of this alleged mastermind, Marion Kuchner, after the Supreme Court basically overturned the second acquittal verdict of the specialized Criminal court. So we'll have a new trial and there will be a different panel of three judges in Slovakia. This case is decided by a panel of judges and they will be different than before. And there is still what's hanging in the air is also a decision on this associate of Marion Kochner, who is a woman. But you know, seven years to convict a mastermind of a journalist murder in such an important case. It's been long and I often think about the parents of Jan Kuciak and the mother of Martina Kushnirova, his fiance, who are suffering a lot from this lack of justice. And it's very important for them and for Slovakia and for Slovak journalists that we can officially know Marian Kochner is true. He's in a prison, serving prison sentence in another criminal case. But we need to get this justice. And I want to say one last thing that, you know, this affair of Jan Kuciak uncovered a lot of corruption and connections to high level politics. And your question is about feats of. So it's very relevant. And we know that K and Fico knew each other, that K claimed he was working for Fico, you know, in his various, you know, business dealings. And what we know, and this is really striking today, is that the lawyer of Kochner is officially an advisor of Prime Minister Robert Fitzo. So this means that potentially this alleged mastermind of the killing of a journalist in Slovakia has information directly from the office of the government. This is really shocking. And it shows that Robert Fitzo has no shame about his political responsibility for this killing. I'm not saying he ordered it, but he. It happened under his watch. And it's the police under his government which refused to take in the complaint of Jan Kiak against the threats of Marianne Kutchner back in 2017, before the killing. Yeah.
- [27:05]
James Cantor
One more question on this though. To what extent is the slow progress in the Kutsiak case linked to the FICO government's decision to fast track this dissolution of something called the Special Prosecutor's Office?
- [27:21]
Pavel Šeliga
That's a good question. For the moment I have to say that we trust the new prosecutor in charge of the Kutak case. And these long delays are also due to the decision decisions of the Slovak Court, or I would say mostly due to those decisions. So I would say that the impact is not decisive, but it's not in the interest of current government that this, that this case is resolved. And Fico, you know, has several times basically questioned the findings of the police and the prosecutor openly question them, claiming that he knows the truth and that the truth, contrary to what the authorities found out, will be revealed. So he keeps kind of just provoking conspiracies and questioning this good work that has been done by the Slovak police and by the prosecutor's office.
- [28:23]
James Cantor
Pavel, let me ask you this. Why does Slovakia, do you think, have such an active conspiracy environment? And there seem to be so many websites and media spreading hoaxes or manipulated information about refugees, COVID 19, the EU, NATO, Ukraine. How much of that is to do with the high amount of Russia backed disinformation? How much of it is to do with Czechoslovakia's history as a Soviet satellite state? How much of this is to do with a kind of institutionalization of, I think, what Slovaks even call the disinformation sphere, where conspiracy camp members are now in government, speaking for the government, using alternative media outlets. I mean, Slovakia sometimes seems like a post truth nation, or at least at risk of becoming one.
- [29:14]
Pavel Šeliga
Slovakia, you know, actually has been a laboratory for deepfake which might have been promoted by Russian actors before election, which allowed FICO to become again Prime Minister. So Slovakia is unfortunately this very fertile ground for this information. And you know, the reasons you mentioned them, it's a mix of reasons. I would also say that Slovakia has always been a very divided country. In some periods it was ruled by pro EU governments and then they were replaced by nationalist governments. And this whole Trump wave in the world, of course benefits people like Simkowiceva and fico. Slovakia is very sensitive to international politics. It's hard to isolate the two. And finally, I would also say that what we see in Slovakia is also a strong distrust in the media from the population. And the Slovak media are also very, very polarized. So maybe what we can see in Slovakia is not so different from what we see around the world. In the us, in other European countries, it's just more aggravated version. And it's for the reasons that that you mentioned communism and also the very difficult transition years in the 1990s.
- [30:48]
James Cantor
You mentioned the deepfake audio clip. Do we know categorically who was responsible for this deepfake audio clip? So it was audio created with AI that appeared to reveal that a journalist, Monika Todova and the leader of an opposition party were preparing electoral fraud. It was a complete fake. This fake was released just two days, I think, before parliamentary elections. And your organization, Reporters Without Borders has labeled this as the first deep fake impacting a European election. So it was a moment in the evolution of media and that happened in Slovakia.
- [31:30]
Pavel Šeliga
We don't know categorically. There have been some credible analysis according to which pro Russian actors, political actors in Slovakia were at the origin of its spread. But we cannot say this firmly. What we know for sure is that it did impact the election because it was viewed by, I think more than 100,000 people, you know, which is a lot for such a small country. What we know as well is that the media authority acted quite quickly in the given circumstances and kind of stopped the spreading, which shows how important in this post truth digital age, when elections are decided also online, independent media authorities are important, although of course it's also threatened by the current ruling majority. Slovakia doesn't even have a law to prosecute this kind of intervention, illegitimate intervention in the election. Unfortunately, not much was done to prevent this happening again in Europe. And we have seen what happened in the Romanian election.
- [32:41]
James Cantor
Yeah. So that vulnerability remains in Slovakia. And in the Romanian election from last year, we saw that the Constitutional Court there annulled the initial election there last year because of perceived Russian interference using TikTok that helped to boost popularity of a very, very far right candidate who was pro Russian. So, Pavel, the emfa, the European Media Freedom act, the European Commission proposed this legislation in 2022 and it's come into force over the past year. It's historic because for the first time there is a law recognizing the right to access to a plurality of reliable journalistic sources. And that has all kinds of implications for everything from curbing spyware on journalists phones to fighting disinformation in the media. So just briefly, what prompted this EU regulation? What specifically and more generally kind of pushed the European Commission to propose this regulation and to actually get it passed?
- [33:48]
Pavel Šeliga
What prompted actually the mfa?
- [33:51]
James Cantor
The European Media Freedom Act.
- [33:52]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes. Are the killings of journalists in the recent years in Slovakia, in Malta, Daphnika and Galicia. And also the situation in Hungary, where the ruling party controls 80% of the media landscape. And in Poland under PIs.
- [34:13]
James Cantor
PIs, that's a reference to the Polish Law and Justice Party, an ultra conservative party in Poland. They were formally leading the government there. They're now out of power. But they really left an impression on the country that has been hard to eradicate, even with the return of more centrist conservative forces led by Donald Tusk, who is the current prime minister.
- [34:38]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes, that's right. Under Peace, where we have seen, you know, how public broadcaster can become a machine of hate leading to a killing of a local politician in Poland. So actually in some way, by adopting the European Media Freedom act, the EU institutions took what happened in Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Malta, then strengthened internally following a crisis, which has been the press freedom crisis. So now we have a new instrument and it must be applied. And we need the commission to push the governments to make legislative changes to align their national legislation with the European Media Freedom act because of course its regulation is directly applicable. But in many countries, actually in most countries, the national legislation is not in line with it and we need the EU institutions to be really firm about this because otherwise it will become a dead letter.
- [35:42]
James Cantor
But this is one of the concerns that governments like that of Robert Fico, they have no intention of actually abiding by this regulation. And more widely, there is this problem about the national responses to the European Media Freedom Act. How many EU member states have actually complied with the regulation to date?
- [36:03]
Pavel Šeliga
I mentioned Malta. Malta is really bad in terms of press freedom. Ever since the killing of of Daphne, not much has changed there. Greece is the last country for several years now in our index. In the eu the problems are so vast and multifaceted from public media to independence of the private media to safety of journalists and protection of sources. Everything that's covered by, by the emfa.
- [36:31]
James Cantor
The European Media Freedom Act.
- [36:33]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes. Also Italy, you know, Italy is a the worst ranked big EU country in our index. And some of the problems have nothing to do with the government. I would say it's threats from mafia for journalists. But unfortunately the Meloni government has exploited some of the structural problems with press freedom in Italy to its benefit and to further deteriorate press freedom, such as slap lawsuits, gag lawsuits.
- [37:05]
James Cantor
SLAP is actually an acronym for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. That's just another way of saying frivolous lawsuits brought by government actors or by companies to try and muzzle journalists. So tying them up in litigation which can be expensive and time consuming and very, very distracting and very damaging to journalism.
- [37:30]
Pavel Šeliga
Correct. Judicial harassment of journalists and the lack of independence of the public broadcaster, which is an issue covered by the EMFA.
- [37:39]
James Cantor
And rather predictably, perhaps, there are far right MEPs in the European Parliament, far right across the European Union. They have been branding the European Media Freedom act as a censorship tool. This is echoing the J.D. vance line, the Vice President of the United States, that the EU is stifling freedom of expression with things like the European Media Freedom Act. In any case, I want to ask how might a European Media Freedom act case work in practice?
- [38:15]
Pavel Šeliga
I see three main ways of giving life to the emfa. The first is the European Commission calling the member states to apply it. This is very soft, of course. This is very, you know, you rely on the goodwill of these leaders, which they don't have in many cases. So what can happen next is, you know, an infringement proceeding.
- [38:43]
James Cantor
This is Brussels jargon. This is the EU jargon for when the European Commission effectively brings a sort of legal proceeding against a member state of the European Union to say, hey, you're either not enforcing the law or you're enforcing the law improperly. And if you don't sort this out, we're going to end up at the Court of Justice of the European Union and you could face very large fines. Unfortunately, with these infringement proceedings, they do tend to take a very long time and there are many steps that you have to go through before you get a result or get a member state to change its behavior. So they can be of mixed effectiveness.
- [39:28]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes, that's right. Infringement proceedings which allow sanctions in the end, even financial sanctions, because this is EU law, which is binding and which is protecting the citizens interests. And the last way to enforce it is through courts. So it will be a hard battle, but we really need to see a sign of political will in the first place from the EU Commission that it wants the EMFA applied.
- [39:57]
James Cantor
So in the case of Slovakia, where would the infringement fall?
- [40:02]
Pavel Šeliga
I think yes, it would be based on lack of implementation of the MFA in specific areas, like the lack of independence of the public broadcaster. The objective was to change the editorial line of the media and to replace the Director General. And as it was publicly announced by FICO and his allies. And I want to say that Slovakia is a perfect test case because contrary maybe to Hungary, you have still in Slovakia independent journalists, independent media. There is strong civil society which is opposing this anti democratic practices of fits all. And when the EU acts there, it will have strong support from the population in Slovakia. But Slovakia can be a test case also in the area of private media. We have had issues with the independence of the largest private broadcaster, T. Marquisa, which belongs to the Czech group ppf. And EMFA does have clauses which oblige the private broadcasters to respect independence, editorial independence of the newsrooms and be transparent about the potential conflicts of interest and funding, for example, advertisement from the state. This could be also a case, you.
- [41:25]
James Cantor
Know, let me ask you this about the European Media Freedom Act. One of the articles of the European Media Freedom act lays out how professional journalism and articles can't just be taken down by the big social platforms or from the Internet. Okay, but doesn't that still mean that a Slovak media environment under the influence of a Lukas Makala or a Martina Shimkovikova still could give this privileged status to media acting as in fact propaganda or post truth outlets? I mean, I guess this kind of gets to the heart of it. Can the EU law actually make a difference in these politicized circumstances? Another way, I guess of asking this is what good can a European media law do when the folks in charge of implementing that law are, to coin a phrase, the lunatics who've taken over the asylum.
- [42:24]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes, that's, that's very well said. Regarding this question, we are very glad that the MFA specifically mentions the Journalism Trust Initiative developed and promoted by RSF as a self regulatory international standard. So clearly this is something out of the reach of, of the lunatics because it's a, it's a self regulated standard. But of course this legislation doesn't go far enough according to us, because it's not enough to treat this question. Content removal, of course, but we need positive curation, so we need to oblige the platforms to promote journalistic content. So this is the first dimension. The second dimension is what you're also hinting at, I think is like this attempt to control the media authority which happened before in, in Hungary, in which is still the case, unfortunately, in Poland. But we have other EU legislation which, which basically obliges the states to have independent media regulators which oversee the media market to oblige national leaders to respect independence of the media, but we need them to enforce it.
- [43:40]
James Cantor
What are the implications for press freedom in some of the countries that we've talked about in Czechia, Italy, Greece, if this new law is not enforced? Let me put it this way. What do we know about whether Ursula von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission, is supportive of the European Media Freedom Act? Right now, Slovakia is small. It Seems clearly in violation of this law. FICO is not directly in von der Leyen's political family. He's not a conservative as such. So why might the European Commission and Ursula von der Leyen have this hesitation to act against Slovakia? Is this really about fico's threats to leave NATO and the EU and therefore the weakening of the European effort to counter the war that Vladimir Putin is leading in Ukraine? Could it be that enforcing the act would lead to more accusations by J.D. vance and Trump World that Europe won't allow free speech? How much incentive is there really for von der Leyen, the head of the European Commission, to bring these infringement procedures against Slovakia that would make Slovakia a test case and breathe life into the European Media Freedom Act?
- [45:09]
Pavel Šeliga
Honestly, I think we need to still give a chance to von der Leyen and her commission. The MFA fully entered into force only basically a month ago. So we'll be very carefully watching the Commission's steps. But really we need to ask ourselves, how far are we going in making compromises with these leaders like Fito and how much does it actually harm our initial objective of helping Ukraine, you know, and when EMFA is not applied in Slovakia, in Greece, in Italy, where will it be actually applied? And I want to say that in Czechia the situation is much better compared to other countries. But there are threats to press freedom. There is an election happening exactly in one month. And we need also to point to these positive examples and keep them a beacon of hope in the region for press freedom. And Czechia is one currently. And this is also why we launched a pre electoral initiative before the Czech election. Because if you lose Czechia, it will be even more difficult now.
- [46:23]
James Cantor
Interestingly, at one point there was talk of the European Commission freezing funds for Slovakia regarding the way that this FICO government changed the criminal code, but Brussels dispersed Slovakia's money anyway.
- [46:39]
Pavel Šeliga
Yes, I think we shouldn't be timid. Just fear of talking about sanctions in the case of lack of rule of law in EU countries. I understand that some politicians in Slovakia in the opposition, they fear being accused of of preventing Slovakia from getting the EU funds. But we think that sanctions are legitimate means of protecting. We have seen that the Hungarian government made some concessions actually when part small part of the EU funds was suspended. And I want to alert the EU politicians and the European leaders about one thing regarding Slovakia. I think there is an effort to sort of do everything to keep Robert Fico on board regarding Ukraine. And they are ready to make a lot of compromises to get Slovakia support for Kyiv in the war of aggression by Russia. But let's not get fooled, because the more we let Robert Fico suppress independent media in Slovakia, which he has been doing, the more disinformation will be replaced by Russian propaganda, which is already very strong in Slovakia and which he personally and his government have been promoting. So we may just end up with hardcore Russian propaganda, like you can see it in Hungary. So as they make these compromises, the European leaders should be aware that there is a red line and that it can turn against the very objective of helping Ukraine.
- [48:26]
James Cantor
So turning more specifically to the media, as it is sort of today in Slovakia, in fact, the FICO government set about changing the face of public media last year. That's when it really took off. And that was before this second Trump administration in the US began really enacting the far right project there of trying to end all federal funding for public broadcasting in the United States, and of course, for its foreign arms like Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and before Trump started really strong arming and suing private media like abc, CBS and the Wall Street Journal. Now, in the case of Slovakia, the main focus of the government has been the way that an entity that used to be called RTVs, this is the former name of the public broadcaster, that name was changed to stvr. What's in a name change, apart from putting the word Slovakia first in the acronym? What really happened here?
- [49:31]
Pavel Šeliga
When we look at the big picture, Slovakia has dropped 21 places in RSF's World Press Freedom Index. It was 17th in 2023, and now it's 38th below Poland and of course for some time already below Czech Republic. And one of the major reasons is the threat to the independence of the public broadcaster. What really happened was that actually, as suggested by the name change, most of the law, you know, most of the text of the bill has remained unchanged. But there were several significant changes. One of them is the way that the Director general of this radio and TV broadcaster is elected. But, you know, the devil is in the details. So now, contrary to the past, the problem is in the composition, how this board is elected and who sits in this board. And the key person in this board, who is the vice chair is Lukasz Makhala. And basically the Slovak media policy is steered by Lukas Mahala. And this person is someone who doubts the fact that the earth is round and who also has anti Semitic statements. And this person is at the same time the third highest official at the Ministry of Culture. So we have someone who basically is like a government official, politically nominated and who is supposed to oversee the independence of the public broadcaster as vice chair of the council. So this is really a strong conflict of interest. And actually the current majority has elected all the nine members of this council. So there is like no political diversity, no pluralism, political pluralism in this body, which is usually the case when you have such a board in other countries, like for example, in the Czech Republic. So we have. Everything is prepared for it to be completely controlled by the government.
- [51:56]
James Cantor
I would point out here that Vera Jurova, who is the former European Commission vice president overseeing rule of law, she happens to be Czech as well. She wrote to the Minister of Justice, Martina Simkovikova, a year ago, essentially to warn her about the conflicts of interest and nepotism in the appointment of the first four members of the Public Broadcasters Council. Now, Yurova wasn't so specific, but she basically was talking about the appointment of people like Lukas Makala, who led the abolition of the former public broadcaster rtvs, who harbors the conspiratorial views that you've just described, who is tight with government figures, and who is Secretary General of the Culture Ministry. So in that sense, yes, public service media is under political control, but has it really become a state broadcaster yet? What are we seeing in terms of changes in terms of the media diet that is offered by the state broadcaster?
- [53:05]
Pavel Šeliga
I think that what's happening is like a transformation of STVR from public to party broadcaster. We have seen decisions of the new director general to remove from the air programs both in the TV and the radio, which were criticized by the Ministry of Culture's party, Slovak National Party, the party that nominated her.
- [53:37]
James Cantor
This is Martina Simkowikova.
- [53:39]
Pavel Šeliga
Yeah, yeah. So we can see that first these programs were criticized and now they are removed. The explanation is something like, yeah, like we are modernizing the program structure, but it happens quite unexpectedly, this so called reform of the program structure. And it's not based on any analysis of the numbers of viewers. It's not a vision, it's just a response to political demand to. To remove these. These programs. You know, one, one is a humoristic radio program and another one is debate on. On societal issues of. Of all kinds. And before that we saw some important journalists forced to leave the broadcaster under various conditions since this new director general was elected. And what I really fear the most is that even in the future, when maybe there will be change in the government, change in the law, etc. That there will be so low public trust in the public broadcaster and also a trust of the journalists. Good Journalists to work there. The public broadcaster will never recover from this political takeover. And it will be like in Poland, where actually people refuse to pay the license fees.
- [55:05]
James Cantor
Yeah, I mean, a couple of things there, Pavel. I mean, one is that, yes, in Poland, even after the far right government was removed, the Law and Justice Party, it has been very hard to recover the independence of state institutions, including state media. It's been a real battle, and that battle is not over. So once these changes are put into effect, they can be very, very hard to undo, and the damage, as you say, can be permanent. I was also struck by this idea that humorists and shows with high ratings on Slovak television have been removed. Why, if a show is doing well, would you remove it? And it reminds me of the way that Stephen Colbert was removed from CBS, CBS's Late show in the United States, even though he's very popular. And part of this, of course, is to do with the fact that he's an outspoken critic of Trump and the Trump administration, and CBS just didn't want to risk it anymore. Yes, it's extraordinary.
- [56:12]
Pavel Šeliga
The situations are quite parallel, including the gag lawsuits in both countries, the US And Slovakia. And, you know, in some way, we can say that, that Slovakia had Trump before Trump because Fico first became prime minister in 2006, and ever since, he's been getting more populist and more authoritarian.
- [56:36]
James Cantor
But let me just add that from your description of what's been going on with public media, the Slovak government, it's still following the idea of creating things like media boards, public media boards. It's following, in a way, the letter of the law. But that's still kind of a farce, because the board of the public broadcaster will be appointed by bodies where the ruling parties have a majority. And there's this other issue. I mean, in Slovakia, you have people like Lukas Makala and Martina Simkovikova in charge of the media. These are the very people meant to be working towards the goal of reliable information may be themselves among the very least reliable. These are people who insist that it's okay to talk about the earth being flat or that suggest that being LGBTQI is some kind of illness, or hang out with people who say that Covid vaccines turn people into genetically modified organisms. The conspiracy theories that can be found in the general population of Slovakia to some extent, are now being shared at the highest levels of government. And that's what I find just so striking.
- [57:50]
Pavel Šeliga
Yeah, unfortunately, you know, the rumors and, you know, the conspiracies, what you would hear before maybe in. In a pub anywhere in the world now is is ruling Slovakia. It's the price that Robert Fitzo has decided to pay for staying in power. Maybe in his mind avoiding prison because he was prosecuted when he was in opposition during a government which was very anti corruption. And he probably thinks that he had made a mistake in the past of leaving the public broadcaster working independently and he has decided to correct this mistake. But Slovakia is an EU country and Martina Simkovicheva, every time she goes, whatever she believes or her officials go to Brussels to meetings of the EU council, has to be reminded that this is not Belarus and that there are some rules and that she has to respect them.
- [59:07]
James Cantor
That's it for this episode. EU Scream is non profit journalism. We might occasionally do partnerships and take advertising, and we're grateful to Full Beam Media for an annual grant. But here's the thing. We need your support to bring you more content more regularly. It's your support that helps us delve into this new darker era in our politics, into how the EU should be responding, and into the thoughts and experience of people who really know what they're talking about. Small donations to large ones, it's all incredibly appreciated. It also helps when we get a five star rating at Spotify or a review at Apple. Podcasts and passing on episodes to family, colleagues, friends. That's another great way to show support. For more details and for more EU Scream, do please visit EU scream.com Thanks for listening.