Ep.122: Anti-LGBT as a Strategic Threat

Summary

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EU Scream – Episode 122: “Anti-LGBT as a Strategic Threat”

Released: November 12, 2025
Host: James Cantor
Guests: Leo Varadkar (former Prime Minister of Ireland), Remy Bonny (Forbidden Colors)

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Episode Overview

In this urgent and insightful episode, EU Scream explores the mounting threat posed by international anti-LGBTQ+ movements as part of a broader assault on European democracy. Host James Cantor is joined in Brussels by Leo Varadkar, former Irish Prime Minister, and Remy Bonny, director of Forbidden Colors, a leading LGBTIQ rights NGO. Their discussion focuses on the weaponization of anti-LGBT rhetoric by authoritarian forces—especially Russia—and the complicit role of far-right and religious conservative networks both inside and outside the EU. The episode also covers the shifting political landscape in Europe and the US, the disturbing growth of coordinated ultra-conservative influence in European states, and explores the strategic stakes for democracy, inclusion, and security.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Democratic Backsliding and the US/European Political Climate

• Checks and Balances in US Democracy ([00:48]–[02:33]):
  • Leo Varadkar expresses deep concern over the state of US democracy, noting a dangerous shift under a second Trump administration:

    “I never thought that I'd have doubts about the perseverance of American democracy. And now I do.” (Leo Varadkar, [01:39])

  • He underlines the importance of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the military in defending democracy.
• Personal Engagements with Trump ([02:33]–[04:19]):
  • Varadkar describes interactions with Trump and Pence, noting Trump 1.0 was "much more muted" on anti-LGBT issues than the subsequent administration.
  • Trump’s performative pro-LGBT gestures contrasted with escalating attacks during his second term.

2. Brexit, UK Politics, and Irish Concerns

• Uncertainties around Far-Right Leadership in Britain ([04:19]–[06:14]):
  • Varadkar cautions against over-fixating on possible Farage premiership but warns of the risk to Northern Ireland and Scottish interests.
  • Brexit’s fallout has not delivered on its promises and has exposed Britain to greater internal discontent.
• Political Shifts in Ireland ([06:14]–[08:39]):
  • Recent Irish presidential elections are explained as reflecting a ceremonial push-left, not an overall system realignment.
  • Varadkar firmly dismisses merging Ireland’s center-right parties as a tactic to block the left.

3. Rise of Europe's Far-Right and the Reframing of Social Issues

• Polarization in European Parliament, Alliances with Far-Right Parties ([09:12]–[11:46]):
  • Varadkar notes three distinct far-right groupings now strong in the European Parliament, indicating real, deepening polarization.
  • Expresses unease over alliances between traditional center-right groups (like the EPP) and the far-right (ECR), though pragmatic about necessary coalitions for governing.

4. Intersectionality and the Politics of Identity

• Racism, Islamophobia, and Political Fundamentalism ([11:46]–[14:23]):
  • Varadkar emphasizes that membership in a minority group does not dictate political beliefs:

    “People should be judged, if judged at all, by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.” (Leo Varadkar, [12:23])

  • Critiques both political Islam and fundamentalist Christianity for their threat to liberal democracy.

5. The Strategic Threat: International Anti-LGBTQ+ Networks

Strategic Use of Anti-LGBTQ Rhetoric ([14:23]–[19:28])

• Russia and the Global “Traditionalist” Push ([14:23]–[16:01]):
  • Varadkar and Bonny explain how Russia and US Evangelicals use anti-LGBTQ messaging to sow division and further authoritarian goals, especially in Central and Eastern Europe.
• Budapest as an Anti-LGBTQ Hub ([16:01]–[16:51]):
  • Bonny exposes Budapest’s emergence as a headquarters for US and Russian anti-LGBTQ organizations, with groups sharing tactics to destabilize democracy.

    “They’re all coming together… to dismantle and to weaponize our communities as part of a tactic, geopolitical war against our community… and just use our community as a scapegoat to destabilize democracy in general.” (Remy Bonny, [16:24])

Russia, Hungary, and Tactical Application ([16:51]–[18:26])

• Varadkar: Russia’s efforts focus on dividing democracies along social lines, targeting more conservative populations in Eastern Europe.
• Intelligence during Varadkar’s leadership confirmed links between anti-LGBTQ movements, cyberattacks, and election interference from Russia and allied states.

Soft Power and Conservative US Networks ([19:28]–[21:28])

• Bonny traces the evolution and global reach of the World Congress of Families, showcasing the pipeline of anti-LGBTQ ideology from Russia to the American right and its infiltration into the EU via Hungary as a “Trojan horse”.

6. Strategies for Resistance and Countermeasures

• Political Leadership Beyond Office ([21:28]–[24:03]):

  • Varadkar now acts as a high-profile ally, providing moral support and normalization, particularly in resistant regions:

    “So perhaps in some ways, just demonstrating normalization.” (Leo Varadkar, [22:41])

• Role of the EU and Transatlantic Tensions ([24:03]–[26:16]):

  • The US retreat under Trump has created an advocacy vacuum, with Varadkar urging the EU to fill the space—through funding, diplomatic signaling, and defending European Court decisions.
  • Prioritizing a pragmatic, non-colonial approach to supporting internal democracy without stoking nationalist backlash.

• Litigation Against Hungary ([26:16]–[27:55]):

  • Remy Bonny details the case against Hungary’s 2021 anti-LGBTQ propaganda law, coordinated EU legal action, and the strategic importance of enforcing treaty values:

    “This is a union, not just of member states. It's a union of people, a union of values, and the European Union protects those kind of rights.” (Leo Varadkar, [27:40])

• Spread of Anti-LGBTQ “Virus” — Bulgaria, Slovakia, Italy ([29:44]–[31:54]):

  • Bonny and Varadkar document how draconian laws are not isolated; they’re spreading across Bulgaria, Slovakia, and Italy, with Brussels often slow or inconsistent in response.
  • The illiberal “playbook” is being translated and exported across member states and neighbors, threatening core democratic rights.

7. Ties Between Ultra-Conservative Networks and Security Threats

• Alliance Between US Evangelicals and Russian Actors ([31:54]–[34:41]):

  • Bonny provides a case study of Moldovan conference funding traced to Russian and American hardline religious interests, highlighting the complexity and reach of these anti-democratic alliances.

• Anti-LGBTQ Rhetoric as Democracy’s Front Line ([34:41]–[35:51]):

  • Varadkar emphasizes:

    “We're actually the ones in the trenches, on the front line, and if we're defeated, they're coming for your rights too.” (Leo Varadkar, [35:44])

  • Attacks on sexual minorities are often the prelude to broader attacks on rights, assembly, and democratic freedoms.

8. Policy Dilemmas: Strategic Alliances and Enforcement Gaps

• Mainstreaming Far-Right Parties in the EU ([35:51]–[37:28]):

  • The ECR group’s alliance with centrist forces is seen as a double-edged sword—seeking to moderate new parties while risking mainstreaming illiberal values.

• Institutional Weakness in the Face of US Pressure ([27:55]–[29:44]):

  • Repeated hesitancy by EU leaders to robustly enforce their own treaties, particularly under US diplomatic/economic pressure, is called out.
  • The transatlantic dynamic with the Trump administration undermines digital regulation and human rights efforts (e.g., Digital Services Act).

9. Tech Giants, Social Media, and Disinformation

• Ireland’s Role as Tech Gatekeeper ([41:34]–[43:12]):
  • Varadkar discusses Ireland’s delicate balance as host of tech multinationals and as GDPR/Digital Services Act (DSA) regulator.
  • He admits EU and Ireland acted too slowly to check social media platforms’ role in spreading hate:

    “We collectively… were far too slow to regulate social media. Perhaps we didn't understand it and we allowed them to really get away with this idea that they're not publishers.” (Leo Varadkar, [43:35])

  • Algorithms, not just content, are spotlighted as drivers of polarization and anti-LGBT/migrant “virality”.

10. Europe’s Security Role and Neutrality Debates

• Ireland and NATO ([46:56]–[48:44]):

  • Varadkar clarifies the historical reasons for Ireland’s military neutrality and how recent events (Ukraine, Russian cyber/physical threats) have prompted debate over involvement in common security efforts.

• Changes to Irish Peacekeeping Deployment Laws ([48:44]–[49:54]):

  • Details on legislative reforms to relax the requirement for UN mandates, reflecting a pragmatic approach to new security realities.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the strategic nature of the anti-LGBTQ+ attack:

  "I think it is tactical, I think it is strategic, and I think that that's, in many ways what makes it most dangerous."
  — Leo Varadkar ([17:59])

• On Budapest as anti-LGBTQ headquarters:

  “They’re all coming together… to dismantle and to weaponize our communities as part of a tactic, geopolitical war against our community…”
  — Remy Bonny ([16:24])

• On global anti-democratic alliances:

  “Friendships and relationships between American ultra conservative evangelicals and the Russians are… back.”
  — Remy Bonny ([32:00])

• On why LGBTIQ+ rights defense is central to democracy:

  “If you can outlaw a pride march, well, it can be a student march too… if we're defeated, they're coming for your rights too.”
  — Leo Varadkar ([35:44])

• On social media & tech enforcement failures:

  “We… allowed them to really get away with this idea that they're not publishers…”
  — Leo Varadkar ([43:35])

• On EU strategic weakness:

  “All of that is indicative of how weak Europe is, that we've allowed our economy to fall behind that of the US… and that we've become so dependent on them for security.”
  — Leo Varadkar ([28:32])

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Major Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:39] Leo Varadkar on US Democratic Backsliding
• [04:59] Brexit, Farage, and the Irish Border
• [09:42] Polarization in the European Parliament
• [12:23] Leo Varadkar on intersectionality, character
• [14:59] Russia’s “traditional values” strategy
• [16:01] Bonny on Budapest as anti-LGBT nerve center
• [19:28] How anti-LGBTQ networks interface with EU elites
• [24:03] EU’s need to fill America’s advocacy vacuum
• [26:21] Hungary’s anti-LGBTQ law and EU court challenge
• [29:44] Bulgaria, Slovakia, Italy—Expanding anti-LGBT “virus”
• [34:41] Democracy at stake: anti-LGBT and authoritarianism
• [35:44] Rights of all—“first they came for us…”
• [41:34] Tech giants, GDPR, and hate speech
• [43:35] Platforms “not publishers”—consequences
• [46:56] Ireland & NATO, security dilemmas

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Tone and Language

The conversation is sober yet passionate, mixing analytical depth with personal conviction, particularly from Leo Varadkar, who frames his perspective in pragmatic, centrist-liberal terms. Remy Bonny provides activist rigor, rich in detail and evidence, while James Cantor’s framing reinforces the urgency and complexity of the intersecting threats.

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the intersection of civil rights, European politics, and international security. It sharply illuminates how anti-LGBTQ+ movements have become a vector for undermining democracy itself, how these attacks are coordinated internationally, and why robust, united action is critical—not just for LGBTQ+ rights, but for European values and democracy as a whole.

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Transcript

[Remy Bonny]

No migrants More in no Europe without Christianity.

[Leo Varadkar]

An alliance also with Russia.

[James Cantor]

Welcome to EU Scream, the podcast that guides you through stories coming from the eu. We talk about the news a bit differently and with people who really know what they're talking about. I'm James Cantor. This is episode 122, Anti LGBT as a strategic Threat, with the former Prime Minister of Ireland, Leo Varadkar. Welcome to Brussels, Leo.

[Leo Varadkar]

Thank you. Always a pleasure to be here. Not here so frequently as I used to be, but nice to be here indeed.

[James Cantor]

And welcome to our cozy downtown studio. And also with me for this episode, Remy Bonny of Forbidden Colors, an organization focused on human rights and democr for LGBTIQ people in Europe. Now we want to zoom in on how ultra conservative and anti democratic forces are using anti LGBTQI messaging and tactics. And that's a particular concern for you, Leo. But first I want to zoom out a little bit and get a sense of the political weather. And I'd be remiss not to, I think, ask you about that, Leo. We're used to a world where there's ebb and flow in politics, but we may entering a different kind of era. There's talk of Donald Trump staying in power beyond the statutory two terms. Do you think the checks and balances that have sustained US democracy are going.

[Leo Varadkar]

To hold in the end? I think they will. I certainly hope so. I don't know. So it's really been remarkable the extent to which Trump 2.0 has been so different to Trump 1.0, the way that they have not been afraid to use power and in some cases skirt around the law or break the law. And when I see the East Wing being demolished and a big ballroom being built on it, onto it, I don't get the impression it's being built for J.D. vance. I don't feel that this man intends to leave there in three and a bit years time. And that has me worried. But it will come down to Congress, it'll come down to the Supreme Court, and also the military are important too. So it's a dangerous time. I never thought that I'd have doubts about the perseverance of American democracy. And now I do. But of course, a lot of it's going to come down to the American people.

[James Cantor]

I recall that Trump very cordially welcomed you and your partner Matthew Barrett at the White House in 2019. And I think you met Trump on three occasions.

[Leo Varadkar]

Four or five.

[James Cantor]

Yeah, four or five occasions.

[Leo Varadkar]

Three times in the White House, once in Ireland, and then in more kind of informal settings. Where I was with a lot of people, but four times, one on one.

[James Cantor]

Once in Shannon Airport.

[Leo Varadkar]

That's right, yeah. He was on his way to Trump International in Doonbeg, County Clare, west of.

[James Cantor]

Ireland, to play some golf.

[Leo Varadkar]

Indeed.

[James Cantor]

I wonder, did you talk to Donald Trump about civil rights, marriage equality, trans people in the military and other protections for the LGBTQI + community? Did you try communicating with Trump on any of these issues?

[Leo Varadkar]

I did with Mike Pence because he was the vice president and he was seen as the person who was the religious and evangelical conservative in the administration at the time. With Trump, not so much, because in the first term, that part of his agenda was much more muted. So we were talking about Brexit, we were talking about trade and tax and all of the things on which we would have had concerns. But on those kind of social issues, that, to me, was much less a feature of his first administration than the second. I remember eight years ago, him opposing bathroom bans and saying that they were a bad idea and they were bad for business in North Carolina. I remember him appearing on stage with a Pride flag. It was much less. The onslaught on personal freedoms, on academic freedom, on press freedom was much less a feature of the first administration than the second. I don't think people should be surprised. He was pretty clear what his agenda was in the run up to the election. But it is a different Trump. I think politically, it's a different Trump.

[James Cantor]

And on British politics, how much time would you recommend European policymakers be spending on the prospect that the man who instigated Brexit, Nigel Farage, will be a future prime minister of Britain?

[Leo Varadkar]

I don't think I should spend any time on it for now. The next elections in the UK are four years away, and a lot can happen between now and then. So I think they should focus on working with Keir Starmer and his government, who is the prime minister. But they and we in Ireland have to be mindful of the possibility that the man who gave you Brexit could potentially be prime minister. But I wouldn't spend too much time on it. You can never tell what's going to happen in the election, especially when it's three or four years away.

[James Cantor]

Yeah. And it's interesting, this question of Ireland, because the prospect of Farage in power has implications for this sensitive issue of the border with Northern Ireland. And, of course, there's Farage's anti European rhetoric. I can imagine as we get closer to that election, and if Farage is in the race, there'll be mounting anxiety.

[Leo Varadkar]

In Ireland There will be concern. Certainly anything that brings the UK closer to the European Union is good for us, for our economy, but also for Northern Ireland. Anything that would be a doubling down on Brexit. And Brexit has failed. The people of Britain were promised control of their money, their borders and their laws. They have less money. They don't have any more control over their borders, possibly less, because the cooperation agreements don't stand anymore. And they're now learning that a lot of the crazy laws that have grannies being locked up for supporting Palestine action and so on are their own laws, not crazy laws imposed on them from Brussels. But what Farage will argue, and this is what you often see happen in politics, he'll say Brexit failed because it wasn't done properly. And I'm going to now go in and do it really hard. And yes, that would have consequences for Ireland, but particularly for Northern Ireland and Scotland, which never wanted to leave the European Union and have a population that of values that I think are quite different to those in many parts of England.

[James Cantor]

Does Catherine Connolly's recent election as Irish president suggest a wider turn to the left, even beyond Ireland for you? I guess I should say she's a left leaning independent and she's seen by some as a kind of countercultural figure. And I guess by that we mean running counter to a Europe that's increasingly moving to the right and displaying anti immigrant rhetoric and misogyny and so forth.

[Leo Varadkar]

Look, she's very left wing and not pro European or certainly not pro European Union. She's good though on other issues, on LGBT issues, on migrants. So she'd be more in your traditional left than being social democrat, for example. But the role of the Irish presidency is a ceremonial one only last November people re elected a government that is centre centre right and in fact it's more to the right than the previous one because the Green Party aren't in it anymore. And having a ceremon president is different. She's succeeding Michael D. Higgins, who was also very much a left wing president. And I think sometimes people like to have the counterbalance between the president and the government. Particularly the president doesn't have any veto powers or anything like that. So I wouldn't read too much into it in those terms. And she certainly won the campaign. And look, campaigns matter in politics.

[James Cantor]

Given Catherine Connolly's win, to what degree would it now be logical for your party, for Fina Gayle to merge with Fina Foil given the similarities between them?

[Leo Varadkar]

But in Ireland we've two big parties and they're both, broadly speaking, right. Ish.

[James Cantor]

Down the decades they've moved further right.

[Leo Varadkar]

Or to the left, but they've generally sat around the centre of the political spectrum.

[James Cantor]

And might that kind of merger be the best way to hold back Sinn Fein from ever forming a government? No.

[Leo Varadkar]

Look, I don't see any case for it. One of the reasons why Catherine Connolly won was that the five left wing parties came behind her, ranging from Greens and Social Democrats to Trotskyists. So, you know, perhaps they should merge rather than the two centre centre right parties, which are much larger than, than all of those, certainly in our, in our current parliament. And there are differences between the two parties in policy and ideology and temperament and history. And I don't think that the two together would, would, would get more votes, if that makes sense. Sometimes the sum of the two parts can be less.

[James Cantor]

Have you really left politics, Leo?

[Leo Varadkar]

I've left electoral politics. I've ran in six elections, was an elected rep for over 20 years. I don't ever intend to run for election again, but I haven't left politics. I still care about my country, my community, my planet, of which there is only one. And I'm still going to stay involved in issues and campaigns that I care about. But I'll have the freedom to dip in and out as I choose, rather than being accountable to anyone or responsible for anyone.

[James Cantor]

Now, let's get down to it. The lurch to the right and the hard right, it isn't universal, but it feels pretty all pervasive. And with that lurch, what seems to have happened is that issues that until fairly recently were regarded as vital front page, headline making priorities, issues around racial justice, climate, LGBT rights, they're not only less visible, but they're being actively demonized. And I'm wondering what you make of the speed and the scale of this shift.

[Leo Varadkar]

Well, look, I think it's very real. If you look at the European Parliament, there are now arguably three far right parties. You've got the Patriots, you've got dcr, and you've got the ESN as well. So not only is there a far right, there are three versions of it in the European Parliament. And these are all to the right of my political grouping, which would be to the epp. And they're different in terms of their attitudes towards Russia. Some are more nationalist, some are less so, but they're growing. And you see those parties leading the polls in France and Italy and at times Germany and Poland as well. So politics is becoming more polarized, it's becoming more Fragmented. But there definitely is a shift to the right across Europe now. But I don't think any of those things are necessarily inevitable or forever.

[James Cantor]

Yeah, it's interesting what you say about the ecr, the European conservatives and reformists being on the far right because your political grouping or the one that Fina Gale is part of, the family of which is the European People's Party, the traditional Christian Democrats, they kind of have an alliance with the ECR. Ms. Von der Leyen, the president of the European Commission has sort of said they can be part of our family. How do you feel about that?

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, I'm not usually enthusiastic about it, to be honest. And you know, fine. Gale is on the more liberal, centrist, even left leaning wing of dpp. And birds need two wings to fly on as you, as you know. And I'm not hugely enthusiastic about it. But you know, I was there when Viktor Orban was in DPP and is not and FIDEZ had to, had to have to be expelled. So some of the parties that we're cooperating with there I think we can work, work with, but I much prefer us being in alliance with, with liberals and Social Democrats and Greens and that is what we did in Ireland. But you know, you have to respect, respect the voters and respect the decisions that they made. And from time to time you may need to work with people that you don't agree with. And I've done that with socialists and liberals. So I don't think ECR are beyond the pale in the way others might be.

[James Cantor]

Just a question that has perplexed me for a while. I'll try and get this right and if I get it wrong, both throw something at me. I've observed that there are some parts of the gay community that do not feel so compelled to fight against racism. And perhaps that's a little judgy on my part. Expecting all proponents of civil rights causes to hang together on all issues, but countering Islamophobia, that's something that perhaps isn't easy for some conservative gays to be part of. Is that a fair comment and what's sort of happening there?

[Leo Varadkar]

Well, look, I've never liked the idea that because you're gay you should have to have certain political opinions, you know, because you're a woman, that you must be in favor of abortion. You know, I don't necessarily take that view that, you know, because you have a particular religion, that you should be a Christian Democrat or a Muslim Democrat. I don't, I don't believe that, you know, because the way you're born should determine what your political views are. What I say is something different, and it's the words of Martin Luther King, is that people should be judged, if judged at all, by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. I like to see people as individuals. That's why I don't like things like homophobia. That's why I don't like things like Islamophobia or racism or misogyny. But it's not that I like political Islam. I don't. And political Islam, just like large elements of evangelical Christianity and all forms of fundamentalist religion, are also a threat to our freedoms.

[James Cantor]

That's where I think it can become a little divisive, this question about political Islam.

[Leo Varadkar]

But there, you know, there is political Islam, which I disagree with, which is anti gay, is anti woman, but they're not that far off. Political Christianity, you know, in terms of fundamentals Christianity, and we see religious Zionism in Israel and exactly what that looks like. So, you know, to me, people who are religious fundamentalists are much more like each other than they are like those of us who share broadly liberal democratic values that see that people are individuals. And of course, there are a lot of people who are Christians and who have religion who are close to us, too. And, you know, if you read the Bible, I haven't read the Quran much, but if you read the Bible, there's pretty much everything in there. And you can find a God. There's lots of rules and is very vengeful. But you can also see in the New Testament that the two commandments, love thy neighbor and do unto others as you have done unto you. And it's that form of Christian democracy that appeals to me, not one that tries to impose a set of Old Testament rules on people.

[James Cantor]

Amid the wave of enthusiasm for diversity and equality, which is now past, something else was happening all along that was taking us in a very different direction. An international anti LGBT network was taking shape over the past couple of decades. In one sense, the LGBT civil rights movement has been the most successful of all civil rights struggles. One could argue that. So, Leo, how much of a threat do you see here from this other international movement that's been taking shape?

[Leo Varadkar]

Well, look, I think it's huge, and it is international. We see that Russia under Putin, which was a secular country for a very long time, has embraced traditional family values and a form of Russian Orthodoxy that they hope can be used to divide our societies to regain influence over Central and Eastern Europe. And we know how active they are on those issues. We see evangelical Christians from the US Using their money to work to bring in very restrictive laws in Africa, in other parts of the world. And then, of course, there is political Islam. You know, there is no part in the world where gay people are more criminalized than in. In those Islamic countries.

[James Cantor]

And, Remy, if I can turn to you on this question of the international anti LGBT movement. You've done a lot of research on this. Where are the headquarters or various headquarters or nerve centers, so to speak, of this international movement?

[Remy Bonny]

Well, the weaponization of our community has for sure been one of the main topics that has been part of the geopolitical debate happening over the last years. And it's very difficult to pinpoint one of the headquarters these days. They have been, over the years in Washington. They have been in Moscow, but I would say that today they are very much in Budapest. You see a lot of anti LGBTQ groups that are originally coming from the US Such as Alliance Defending Freedom, but also Russian groups, even the Russian think tanks now settling, and Budapest, and all coming together to work hand in hand, basically to dismantle and to weaponize our communities as part of a tactic, geopolitical war against our community, for sure, but also just use our community as a scapegoat to destabilize democracy in general.

[James Cantor]

Leo, why do you think Russia or countries like Hungary that lean toward Russia are so focused on silencing the LGBTQI movement?

[Leo Varadkar]

I think within Russia and also within China, it's the enemy within. It's the fear that some group or some subgroup in society could become a threat to the order and a threat to the government and the regime. When it comes to what Russia is doing in Europe, I think it's more about trying to identify issues that can cause division in democratic societies, and that can be migration, it can be nativism, it can be around LGBT issues. They see it as a means to divide and undermine democratic societies and then potentially to regain influence over the old Eastern bloc. And they can identify the fact that the general population in lots of those countries is more conservative than the West. They can say Western Europe is trying to impose on you values that are alien to you. You're much more like us in Russia, and I think it's been quite calculated. And again, in his early years as president, Putin and his people didn't really have much interest at all in these issues. So I think it is tactical, I think it is strategic, and I think that that's, in many ways what makes it most dangerous.

[James Cantor]

And when you were prime minister, when you were Taoiseach, were you getting intelligence reports about how anti LGBT movements were indicative of extremist behavior or a threat to the European Union?

[Leo Varadkar]

There's only so much I can say about intelligence supports, as you can imagine. But certainly we were made aware that things like cyber attacks emanating in Russia and countries allied to Russia, the existence of bot farms, the use of misinformation and disinformation online, and in some cases election interference, that these were very real things and what some people would say is hybrid warfare.

[James Cantor]

But one of the things that comes up a little bit in Remy's research is that oligarchs and Russian intelligence have used these anti LGBTQI platforms as a way of networking with European and national political elites. And some of these forces, for example, favor Russian annexation of Ukraine and believe that the EU should be downgraded or even toppled to make way for an ultra conservative future. So there seem to be these connections between the anti LGBTQI plus movement and European security.

[Remy Bonny]

Well, I will. I would always say that it's actually twofold. So it's obviously starting with all of the disinformation. A lot of draw forms also targeting LGBTIQ plus people to steer up polarization in societies. But then the second part of it is indeed trying to. What Russia is trying to do is outsourcing their soft power to ultra conservative networks such as this American World Congress of Families, which is kind of the umbrella organization for the World Congress of Families, the World Congress of Families, which is kind of this American umbrella organization for anti LGBTQ groups around the world. And since 2013, which is actually also the year, first of all Euromaidan, but also second of the introduction of the first anti LGBTQ propaganda law in Russia. We see that Russia has been bal that organization and they've brought that organization both to Moscow in 2014 and then later in 2017 to Budapest. And we see like for instance, the former Hungarian president Kathrynovak, who has since became a public politician, participating in these conferences, traveling several times to meet with all kinds of so called ultra conservative academics in Moscow and so on. And by doing that, bringing in and the European Union this kind of of ideology, the so called Rusky Mirror, the Russian world ideology, which is obviously a very conservative, very, very much about traditional family values. And they've been doing that through identifying Hungary as a possible Trojan horse. And the European Union, by investing a lot financially, but also ideologically in Hungary, they've been bringing in this anti LGBTIQ idea, not so much amongst the Hungarian people, but very much shared their playbook. With Hungarian politicians on that.

[James Cantor]

And, Leo, my understanding is that in part, you stepped down from politics as Irish Prime Minister, in part to address these issues more closely. What strategies can you pursue? What strategies are you pursuing that are most effective in countering these anti LGBTQI narratives from Russia, from the US that we've been talking about?

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah. Look, as a former Prime Minister, there's only a limited role I can play, but I am one of a very small number of people who held office while being openly gay. And some of the work that I'm doing is around research. It's around engagement, it's around understanding better what's going on, but also standing shoulder to shoulder with activists. So I was in Budapest for Pride Week at their invitation, making sure that the authorities in Hungary knew that the world's watching them. Tens of thousands marched in Budapest Pride.

[James Cantor]

Defying a ban by the Hungarian government.

[Leo Varadkar]

To do so.

[James Cantor]

Police allowed counter demonstrations by several far right groups, but separated them from Pride participants, and their presence caused no severe disruption.

[Leo Varadkar]

I traveled to Bulgaria as well and worked with some of the organizations there, helped them to get meetings with senior politicians. Was the first openly gay politician to ever appear on the Bulgarian news. So perhaps in some ways, just demonstrating normalization. So.

[James Cantor]

And that was recently?

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, it was the last couple months. Yeah. So I'm not on a personal crusade here, but I am available to help, and I consider myself very lucky in many ways. If I'd been born maybe five or 10 years earlier in Ireland, it's unlikely that I would have been able to reach high office as an openly gay man. I know that in large parts of the world, including parts of Europe, it's impossible for a young lesbian woman or a young gay man to consider the possibility that they might be prime minister or Chief justice or hold a position of responsibility. And I feel I have a certain responsibility and a certain duty to help other people around the world, particularly in Europe, because I know Europe well, but in the wider world as well. So I've done some work with people in Uganda, with people in Korea helping them too, and never forgetting that there are still 70 countries in the world where gay life and gay lifestyles are criminalized against only 30 or so that allow marriage equality.

[James Cantor]

There's one view that the U.S. rollback of LGBTQI protections under Trump is a moment for European leaders to respond with pressure, like even sanctions or travel bans against regimes that are so hostile to the freedoms that we're talking about. Is that a conversation we should be having?

[Leo Varadkar]

I think it probably is. At the moment, The United States is the most powerful country in the world. Its economy, politically, its cultural influence, its military. And what happens in the US sets the tone and is the music for what happens in the rest of the world. And I'm not sure how many voters in Michigan or Wisconsin or Pennsylvania really know that, but what decisions they make are really important for everyone else in the world. And I really noticed that when I've traveled to Central and Eastern Europe, that the American ambassador, who used to be an ally, doesn't turn up anymore, that the American corporations that might have sponsored an NGO dinner or might have been present at Pride are a bit worried that wouldn't go down well back home anymore. So the fact that America is withdrawing from that space has left it open to Russia. And that's why it is actually a security concern as well for me, not just about human rights. And that's where I think the European Union needs to come in, and needs, in many ways, I think, to fill the space of the Americans in terms of the European ambassadors, the External Action Service, turning up the eu, fulfilling its strategy on things like conversion therapies on platforms, spreading hate speech, and also providing funding for organizations that provide basic supports for members of our community.

[James Cantor]

Is that your message to European Union leaders?

[Leo Varadkar]

Yes. In short, it is. And also want to talk to them about what they might do. For example, if there's a European Court ruling against Hungary in the new year, we don't know what the outcome of that will be, but if the courts find that Hungary is in breach of Article 2, that will be the first time that's happened. Will there be a response? So these are the kind of things that we're talking about. But I'm also very pragmatic as well. And I know in Ireland, people don't like foreigners coming in to tell us what to think or what to do or how to vote. And we need to be cautious in that regard as well and be pragmatic.

[James Cantor]

Remy, this court case is one that you helped to bring. What is it about?

[Remy Bonny]

So Hungary introduced in 2021 its version of Russia's anti LGBTIQ propaganda law, basically banning any kind of promotion or depiction of LGBTIQ people and public spaces. And we pushed European Commission, already 2023, to start infringement proceedings against Hungary against that. And then we were rallying members states to join, and we were able to convince actually 16 other member states to join and the European Parliament, which actually made it a large lawsuit. In the history of the European Union.

[James Cantor]

To date, it's a very impressive achievement. Leo, were the Court to rule against Hungary. What do you think the options are?

[Leo Varadkar]

Well, I think we should wait until there's a decision first and not preempt the outcome of the court's decision. But I think what the leaders have to be doing now in the commission and also the prime ministers have to be considering what those options are. I don't think it's good enough just to ignore it or just to wait and see. And there are options. You know, one is to give Hungary a deadline in which to comply. The other is to take stronger action around European funds. There are a number of different options. And rather than prescribing the right one, my message really to European leaders of the institutions and of the member states is something like that can't go without a meaningful response. The treaties are worth nothing if that's the case. And bear in mind, this is a union, not just of member states. It's a union of people, a union of values, and the European Union protects those kind of rights. So it's going to be a substantial test, I think, for the institutions.

[James Cantor]

It does seem to me to be a very substantial test, because whenever there is pressure from the Trump administration saying, oh, well, we're going to leave you alone with Russia or we're going to impose higher tariffs on you, then the current European Commission and the current European Union tends to back off and to give the Trump administration basically what it wants. And this culture of non enforcement, one could imagine Trump invoking some of these threats in order to say, hands off of Hungary, which is an ally of the Trump administration, or at least currently it's possible.

[Leo Varadkar]

And I think in some ways all of that is indicative of how weak Europe is, that we've allowed our economy to fall behind that of the US it used to be bigger, it's not anymore. And that we've become so dependent on them for security and we're so dependent on their support for Ukraine. So the Trump administration holds a lot of cards and better cards than the European Union currently has. But I think if they tried that, to me it would be crossing a line too far, because this is an internal matter within the European Union. It's our European treaties. It would be like us telling him not to take federal action against a US State. It's in a very different place, I think, nonetheless.

[James Cantor]

I mean, the Trump administration has already said in terms of the laws that govern the eu, for example, the Digital Services act, don't use it. I mean, they're already telling Europe what to do. And again, to your point about weakness, we may well be in that territory once again if the EU tries to go against Hungary very hard.

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, well, look, I think we're into a lot of hypotheticals here based on a case that has yet to be decided, but I know what I'll be saying to people who listen.

[James Cantor]

Yeah. As well as Hungary, Remy, what other EU member states are not receiving the scrutiny from the European Commission that they might merit when it comes to anti LGBTQI policies?

[Remy Bonny]

Well, Bulgaria is definitely one of them because Bulgaria basically enters the same anti LGBTQ propaganda that Hungary has introduced in 2021, just last year, and the Commission is not willing to take any, any legal action against that. So it's a bit hypocritical to be fairly honest from the Commission sides to obviously take Hungary to court and then Bulgaria, like give them doing whatever they want. Bulgaria's bill restricting LGBTQ materials in school education, recently approved by its president. The law bans the promotion of non traditional sexual orientation in schools. The virus, this anti LGBTIQ virus is spreading much, much wider than just Bulgaria. Just last month we've seen that Slovakia introduced basically anti LGBTIQ constitution, now basically declari LGBTQ people as second class citizens.

[Leo Varadkar]

Slovakia has changed its constitution to recognize only two genders, male and female. Parliament voted 97 in favor of the law which says that a person's sex is defined at birth and cannot be modified. The new law also bans same sex couples from adopting children and people from getting pregnant via surrogacy.

[Remy Bonny]

Again, we should also understand that this is not just limiting itself to central and Eastern Europe. Also, Italy and the Meloni government has made life for rainbow families for LGBTQ families impossible over the last years. And there's nobody in Brussels reacting at all to that.

[Leo Varadkar]

For Italy's right wing government, they're the new homegrown boogeyman, so called rainbow families with two mothers or two fathers. These parents and their children are facing, facing discrimination by the state.

[Remy Bonny]

This virus is spreading and that's why we need to have a much, much better and common response from the Commission against all of that. It's not just about the again, LGBTQ issues. These anti LGBTIQ groups are definitely using all of this to basically dismantle European democracies. That's why they use it to polarize and so on. Obviously Russia, as we have been saying, has been very much involved in all of these anti LGBTQ networks. But since the Trump presidency is back, friendships and relationships between American ultra conservative evangelicals and the Russians are also back. What we've seen, for instance, over the Summer in Moldova is that there was a conference organized called Make Europe Great Again. It was actually a conference that originated in February here in European Parliament, organized by the ECR Group. And they started a roadshow of conferences around Europe. One of them was going to be in Moldovan Kishino. What we figured out is that the Moldovan version of that conference was entirely paid by the pro Russian oligarch, Elon.

[Leo Varadkar]

Shoran Shor, one of Moldova's most famous oligarchs and leader of a political party.

[James Cantor]

That carries his name.

[Leo Varadkar]

He was elected mayor of Orhei in.

[Remy Bonny]

2020, 2015, despite being under investigation for.

[Leo Varadkar]

Stealing $1 billion from Moldovan banks.

[James Cantor]

Shaw was sentenced to 15 years in.

[Leo Varadkar]

Prison, but had already fled and now lives in Russia.

[Remy Bonny]

And now, through these Make Europe Great conferences, they're again publicly exporting their hates back into Europe. Now, very interestingly linked to that conference, several American evangelicals were about to travel to Moldova and showed up at CHIS air reports, and they were arrested by the Moldovan security agencies because they were considered as Russian agents. Also, much more interestingly actually, is that they were bailed out just a few days after, not by the Russians, but by the American Embassy. And that's something that we see happening here in Brussels as well. These ultra conservative anti LGBTQ groups, they work very, very closely with the US Embassy and all of the member states and some of our neighboring states, but also here in Brussels, where we see, for instance, that the US Permanent representation, the eu, is now meeting with members of the European Parliament from the ECR Group, but also from Patriots, together with ultra conservative anti LGBTIQ groups such as Alliance Defending Freedom.

[James Cantor]

You know, I listened to Remy there, and it underlines how the same people involved in some of these activities around anti LGBTQI plus movements, they are the same ones that are putting democracy at stake in Europe. And therefore, we are at the heart of a security problem.

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, well, we're at. It's a security issue because of the involvement of Russia and others in this in particular. But we're also at the front line of a wider attack on human rights, on press freedom, on academic freedom, on the NGOs, and then ultimately on democracy. So this isn't just about us. And I think this is a message that we need to put across to the broader public. If you can outlaw a pride march, well, it can be a student march too. It could be women, it could be trade unions, it could be the opposition. This is freedom of speech, this freedom of expression, its freedom of assembly. And we all need to stand together on this. It's not just about one community that is under attack or one community that thinks we need some sort of special rights. We're actually the ones in the trenches, on the front line, and if we're defeated, they're coming for your rights too.

[James Cantor]

And part of the issue here is these very difficult trade offs in Europe. On the one hand, we have President of the European Commission, Ursi Lavon der Leyen, having crafted this alliance with the ECR group, the European conservatives, reformists, who include some neo fascist parties that have now mainstreamed, like Giorgio Meloni's brothers of Italy on the side of Ukraine. And yet I would venture the idea that they are using that position as a form of entryism in order to spread their ultra conservative messages about women, about taking away the right to choose, and about anti LGBTQI plus ideologies. It's a very difficult moment.

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, it is a difficult moment. There are always trade offs in politics and there are always competing priorities. And there's always the possibility that through inclusion you can bring parties into the mainstream. And for a long time that was the argument that was made in favor of keeping FIDEJ and epp. It got to the point where that was no longer sustainable. But I remember very heated debates in the EVP about allowing Forza Italia into the epp, about allowing Partido Popular, which has its origins in Franco's government in Spain. And nobody would seriously suggest those parties are not in the centre right anymore. So there is a case to be made for trying to bring parties into the fold, into the mainstream. I don't know if that's going to work with our Italian friends, but I can see why some people think it's worth a try.

[James Cantor]

This spring, the president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, she is a member of your political family, the European People's Party, the old Christian Democrats. She really dragged her feet in the case of the Budapest Pride March. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban had sought to ban the march on the pretext of protecting children from so called displays of homosexuality. Eventually, after a long and loud silence, von der Leyen came out in support of pride. But many here saw the problem that Von der Leyen's ally in Hungary, not Viktor Orban, but Peter Magyar, the new kid on the block, didn't want her to get involved in the pride story for fear that this would hurt his chances of stealing votes from Viktor Orban. Long story short, Von der Leyen was prioritizing her relationship with a fellow conservative, Peter Magyar. Instead of speaking out clearly and strongly for civil rights. Leo, it was not a good look.

[Leo Varadkar]

It wasn't. And, you know, I'm a supporter of President von der Leyen. I think she's done really well on issues like Ukraine, on Brexit, which was very important to Ireland on defense and security, I think on this issue. And also on the issue of Israel, Gaza, she said too little, too late. And this was one example of that. Although she does generally come around to the right position eventually, which is better than the reverse. But I also understand the politics of this, though. There are a lot of people in Europe who would like to see the Hungarian people decide to change the government for themselves, and that may happen next year. And that would be a significant development for Ukraine, for the LGBT community. And there is a fear that if he does, that Prime Minister Orban could exploit any EU action against them, that they will say, this is a further example of Western and Brussels elites trying to tell Hungary what to do. And I'm not sure I agree with that argument, but I do get where it's coming from. So I don't think it's as cynical as Ursa von der Leyen wanting to support Peter Magyar, her conservative colleague. I think she wants to avoid doing anything that might play into the hands of Prime Minister Orban. But, you know, I don't know her mind, but that's just what I suspect it is.

[James Cantor]

I'm also going to ask you again to be a bit the conscience of the European People's Party, the epp, with another question, because besides, I should clarify.

[Leo Varadkar]

I hold no role in the epp, but I am a member of Fine Gael, which is affiliated with the epp, just in case anybody from the EPP thinks I'm trying to speak for the. I'm not authorized to do so. I do vote for them.

[James Cantor]

Besides Ursula von der Leyen, there are other members of this European conservative family, including its leader at the European Parliament, Manfred Weber of Germany. It's pretty well known that Weber also is not being as supportive as he could on LGBTIQ issues. He's apparently been blocking resolutions in the European Parliament on the topic, and he was among those asking MEPs members of the European Parliament to skip Budapest Pride. Now, again, that doesn't sound like the kind of conservative family that Leo Varadkar would feel at home in.

[Leo Varadkar]

And there are other people who took a different view. So somebody from my political family, Maria Walsh, was there in Budapest and decided that she should be there, and she's vice president of the LGBT group in the parliament. So there are different voices within the epp and I think it's really important that within the EPP we do have liberal voices and those who believe in individual liberty and individual freedom. There's different types of centre right politics. But to me personal liberty is very much part of centre right politics and it's really important that we're in there and that we're making that case. And in politics pendulums swing and I think we need to be there to make sure that it can swing back again.

[James Cantor]

Ireland is the headquarters for many of the biggest technology firms from the United States. So many US companies booking their profits in Ireland. Yet the media ecosystem created by some of the biggest of these firms, the likes of Meta's Facebook and Instagram and Google's YouTube, these can drive polarization and homophobia and anti LGBTIQ sentiment. Leo, how did you navigate this territory, this trade off between US investment and the harm that these investors products can cause via hate speech and disinformation when you were prime minister by enforcing whatever.

[Leo Varadkar]

The laws were there. So it fell to us to enforce a lot of gdpr. We had to very heavily resource our Data Protection Commission to make sure that they were able to enforce that. Started off in a poor position when we got into government back in 2011, I think got into a much better position as the years went by, as we built up the capacity to enforce privacy laws and data laws. That now falls to us again with the DMA and the DSA to make sure that commissary in the man the body in Ireland that's being established in resource to enforce those laws does it properly. And you know, Ireland has a lot of successful sectors. We've got a very strong financial sector. We have a huge aviation leasing and aviation industry. You can have successful businesses that employ lots of people and pay taxes but are properly regulated. And we have a responsibility to make sure that's done with the digital platforms.

[James Cantor]

Given what we have seen in terms of the way the digital platforms have been vehicles for some of the most harmful messages in society, what we have seen in terms of hate and all kinds of misogyny, would there be in retrospect, given when you were in office, would you have in retrospect, gone a bit harder against these online giants?

[Leo Varadkar]

Well, I should say they're not the only ones. There's plenty of people beyond the digital platforms in mainstream media, on the streets, on broadcast tv, who are doing much the same things on podcasts. Yeah, indeed. And I think though we collectively, and it wasn't just down to Ireland, it was the European Union as well, were far too slow to regulate social media. Perhaps we didn't understand it and we allowed them to really get away with this idea that they're not publishers. So when you see what newspapers have to go through, the risk of defamation. I published a memoir a few months ago. I had to hire a lawyer to go through it to make sure it was factually correct, to make sure that I couldn't be sued. We allowed platforms to more or less say that we're not publishers and therefore we have no responsibility for the content that's on our platforms. And that wasn't right. You know, if you were in charge of the notice board in the square of your town and somebody put something up on it that was hateful or offensive or encouraged people to commit a crime, the person on the notice board would have at least a responsibility to take it down. And we allowed them to get away with the idea that they had no responsibility for the content on their platform. And worse than that, the algorithms often amplify it. So it's not just straightforward free speech. Often the algorithms which they design amplify content which is designed to keep people online, to stir up their emotions, to make them angry. And that's, I think, what's most toxic. And you know, I don't know if we can ban these algorithms. You know, if we can, I think we should certainly those ones that profile people in particular way. And when I go online, I'm amazed now at the amount of particularly anti migrant content that is pumped in my direction that is fed towards me. I don't know why is that? Is it because I'm a 40 something year old man and they think this is the thing that I want to see? But I really think I don't know enough about the computer science or the technicalities behind this. But I'm much more concerned about the algorithms than I are about some individual weirdo writing an offensive tweet or an offensive message. And posting on social media is the fact that they're not using the technology. They have to take some of this down. And in many cases the algorithms are amplifying it and making sure that many more people see it than otherwise would.

[James Cantor]

But we're back in this paradigm whereby we're not really enforcing the Digital Services act and we're rolling back the AI act, the Artificial Intelligence act, because the Americans, because the Trump administration is saying actually we don't like it. And so the progress that Europe has made towards addressing some of the things that you raised, it's being kind of thrown in the deep freeze, if not worse.

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, look, I'm not sure I'm as pessimistic as you are in that it's early days yet. There has been enforcement, have been some very large fines imposed on some of those companies. They're being challenged obviously in the courts. And I know one thing that happened in Ireland recently in our presidential elections is a number of the platforms decided not to accept any political advertising because they took the view that the new laws were so hard for them to enforce that they just said we're going to not have any political ads at all and turn down substantial income and substantial revenues. And that says to me that the laws are having an effect.

[James Cantor]

Let's go back to Russia. Let's finish on that. Ireland certainly supports the alliance against Russia to defend global democracy in the wake of, of the illegal full scale invasion of Ukraine. But wouldn't Ireland be an even stronger partner if it did join the NATO alliance?

[Leo Varadkar]

The difficult for us, for us in joining NATO is that is the Article 5 guarantee is that we would be obligated to defend other countries if they were attacked. We don't ask any country to defend us in the unlikely event we were attacked. And it goes back to our history. For a very long time, Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, was part of the British Empire. We were forced to fight their wars. We were often conscripted into their army and their navy. And that's where it all comes from. And unless we had a very, very real threat to Ireland's security, I don't think there would be a majority in Ireland for joining NATO. When Finland and Sweden gave up 200 years of neutrality, in Sweden's case, that only arose when there's a real and meaningful threat to them and that is yet to arise. For Ireland were to arise if there were Russian jets over the west of Ireland, if somebody interfered with the cables around our island, that might make people review the position, but that has not arisen yet. However, when we say Ireland is militarily neutral, it's not a member of NATO, we're not politically neutral, we're very clear in our support for Ukraine. We've over 100,000 Ukrainian refugees in Ireland. We give them full support politically, we give them full financial support as well. We are in the European common security defence policy with pesco and I brought Ireland into that as Taoiseach as prime minister in 2017. And we do join individual NATO projects through Partnership for Peace. So it's a bespoke arrangement that satisfies our need not to sign up to mutual defence clause.

[James Cantor]

And on that neutrality point, there is some talk of removing or easing the strict conditions for the deployment of Irish soldiers on international missions. Where are we on that and where are you?

[Leo Varadkar]

Yeah, so that's going through parliament and I support that. We have a thing called a triple lock in Ireland where troops cannot be deployed overseas without the support of the government, the parliament and also UN mandate. And we're going to get rid of the requirement for UN mandate, really on the basis of the fact that the UN isn't working anymore. It hasn't approved a peacekeeping mission since 2014. The US has vetoed the continuation of the mission in Lebanon, which we've been involved in for decades. We think Russia or China could veto other interventions. So we don't feel that we should be constrained by the veto power of the five countries that won the Second World War. And that's why that's being removed. But I think some people say that as corturi neutrality. I don't think it is, you know, neutrality is around since the 50s. That was a pretty new thing introduced, I can't remember, only about 20 or 30 years ago.

[James Cantor]

That's it for this episode. EU scream is non profit journalism. We might occasionally do partnerships and take advertising and we're grateful to Full Beam Media for an annual grant. But here's the thing, we need your support to bring you more content more regularly. It's your support that helps us delve into this new darker era in our politics, into how the EU should be responding, and into the thoughts and experience of people who really know what they're talking about. Small donations to large ones, it's all incredibly appreciated. It also helps when we get a five star rating at Spotify or a review at Apple. Podcasts and passing on episodes to family, colleagues, friends. That's another great way to show support. For more details and for more EU Scream do, please visit EU scream.com Thanks for listening.