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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:56]
B
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C
I spent $40,000 on shoes. What's the ladder Mor.
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A
Great gowns.
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C
Beautiful gowns.
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D
Fashion has changed. No it hasn't.
- [01:48]
C
Hi, I'm Lauren Garrone.
- [01:50]
D
And I'm Chelsea Fairless.
- [01:51]
C
And welcome back to the Every Outfit podcast. Chelsea, how was your week? Finally, after 12 weeks not having to watch it in Just like that episode, did it feel weird?
- [02:02]
D
It did feel weird, but I have to admit I was relieved when I woke up today and realized that I didn't have to listen to the Writers Room podcast at double speed on my way driving over here, you know what?
- [02:13]
C
I was feeling nostalgic. So I actually put on old episodes while I waited for you.
- [02:18]
D
Of course, we're still talking about end just like that though. We have some and just like that related news.
- [02:24]
C
Yes, even though we shared our feelings about the End just like that finale, some might say exhaustively. You know who else is sharing their feelings about the end just like that finale? Bethany Frankel. That's right. Former Real Housewives of New York skinny girl mogul and recent TikTok influencer took to her TikTok after the series finale to give her two cents about what she calls the worst show ever.
- [02:48]
E
I don't feel bad about saying this about and just like that because they dragged me season one when Sarah Jessica Parker's character Said I every time I thought about getting a place in the Hamptons, I always found a reason to not do it. And Seema says, was that reason always Bethany Frankel? They're so cute. It's funny. I was actually really flattered. Great. So I have nevertheless, because I've been bored, watched this series. This is the worst show ever. Like, honestly, this is from Hero to Zero.
- [03:17]
C
You know how I know that Bethany Frankel did not actually find her reference and then, just like that, flattering? Because she committed the actual dialog to memory. Because I went back and watched the scene and. And she perfectly resets what Seema and Carrie say to each other about herself, which is, Bethenny Frankel is the reason that Carrie will never rent in the Hamptons. But Bethenny Frankel's not wrong.
- [03:42]
D
Yeah. When I watched this video, I was like, wow, Bethenny Frankel is way more rude than we are. But I get it. They did her dirty. She has every right to publicly talk shit about. And just like that. Although she did hold off on her criticism until after the show ended, which is respectful in a way.
- [04:00]
C
You mean unlike us?
- [04:01]
D
Yes.
- [04:02]
C
For those who haven't seen the video, she does make some pretty correct points about what was wrong about the show.
- [04:09]
E
Again, someone is wearing the most ridiculously outlandish. Like, one of the women is wearing, like, snuffle up, I guess, at a person. And the whole. And Charlotte and her husband are both, like, one is Vertigo. One, I guess, is his ball surgery. But, like, they don't have a housekeeper in their massive apartment on the Upper east side, so they got to clean up after themselves. Like, everything. Aiden is just, like. He's, like, goofy. Everything is menopause, and just everything is the most 2025 version of itself.
- [04:42]
D
Okay, that was a spot on Aiden.
- [04:45]
C
I was gonna say. I don't think we were even that harsh about Aiden. But, yeah, she put into words what we couldn't. There's a har harness about him that did not exist in the original series.
- [04:56]
D
It's true.
- [04:57]
C
She ends the video by saying, if you're gonna take a shot at this beat, you better not miss. And you guys missed. Ouch. I also think Bethany's commentary is interesting when you realize that the connecting point between her and the show beyond her being referenced is Andy Cohen. And she and Andy Cohen have had a very contentious relationship over the years. And so I just think it's a very interesting group of people in connection. Right. Andy Cohen is the godfather of the Housewives franchise. Bethany is arguably the most famous housewife Andy Cohen, for reasons that still boggle our minds, is besties with Sarah Jessica Parker. All of them have homes in the Hamptons. And yet so much animosity and also never a Hamptons episode. That's what also this reminded me of. But the other thing with this Bethany video is it made me realize that honestly, something that was also missing from men just like that. I don't know if you know this, Chelsea. Bethenny Frankel has recently moved to South Florida and it made me think like oh yeah, at least half of the and just like that cast would be living in South Florida for tax reasons. Like I know that Big is the ultimate New Yorker, but I could also see so that he didn't have to pay state income taxes. Like he had convinced Carrie to move to West Palm beach during the pandemic.
- [06:21]
D
Wow.
- [06:22]
C
What could have been so something we didn't discuss last week that I feel like we should touch on is that extensive exit interview that Sarah Jessica Parker did with the New York Times. In it, she discusses Carrie's worst and best moments, if she thinks that the woman novel is any good. And I think what got the most attention from this interview was her answer to this particular question, which was when in Just like that debuted, it became a sensation. It was also frequently described as a hate watch. Do you understand why? To which Sarah Jessica Parker replied, I don't think I have the constitution to have spent a lot of time thinking about that. We always worked incredibly hard to tell stories that were interesting or real. I guess I don't really care. And the reason I don't care is because it has been so enormously successful and the connections it has made with audiences have been very meaningful. This of course got picked up by many outlets with the more incendiary headline Sarah Jessica Parker doesn't care about the end. Just like that haters. And of course this riled fans up even more thoughts on this.
- [07:25]
D
Chelsea Look, I personally think that it is healthy that SJP is naive to or perhaps actively ignoring the discourse around. And just like that, as a producer she should be aware. But as an actress and a human being, I don't think that's helpful for her her. And no journalist is going to succeed in baiting her to tell the Hate Watchers to go fuck themselves. Mostly because she would never use the word fuck. Although I will say this journalist Alex Soleski was more funny and direct with her than the vast majority of people who interview Sarah Jessica Parker. Which I appreciated for sure.
- [08:04]
C
But I feel like the Discourse about hating and just like that is chronically online behavior. And I feel like that doesn't need to be brought offline in a New York Times interview.
- [08:17]
D
Well, it did appear in the digital edition of the New York Times.
- [08:21]
C
Well, also beyond that, how is she supposed to answer? Because the subtext of the question is like, so people hated the fucking show that you put your heart and soul into. What do you think about that?
- [08:32]
D
Well, it'd be weird to not ask her.
- [08:35]
C
Very true. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But I feel like a theme of this week's episode is journalists bringing chronically online conversations into interviews with actors and directors. And it not going well. Which is to say we will finally be discussing the film Materialists, which. Should we just get into that now?
- [08:57]
D
Sure, I mean, we did discuss Materialists. We did spawn for it.
- [09:00]
C
No, I was going to say. Throughout the summer, listeners have been asking us to discuss this film more in depth. Full disclosure, we did, but through the lens of promoting the film because we got to see it during a pre release screening and we loved it because it reminded us so much of Sex and the City. However, since the film has come out, people who went and saw it felt that they were misled as the film in the trailer made it seem like it was a romantic comedy. For those who have seen the film, they did not feel that it was giving romantic comedy.
- [09:31]
D
Well, there is a dark subplot in this film that I don't know if we need to get into, but it is still a romantic comedy.
- [09:39]
C
Yeah, I mean, I maintain that the film is a worthwhile watch, even a rewatch. Our point about the film still stands. The material. I keep calling it the Materialist. It's Materialists is a film that asked the question, what if Carrie Bradshaw's choice was between a Steve Smith Jared Hybrid and Mr. Big? Which then leads us to the other gripe about this film, which there have been many tweets, TikToks, Letterboxd reviews that have discussed that Celine Song is spreading a broke boy propaganda with this film, which in this becoming a popular thread about the movie, sort of leads you to understand, if you haven't seen it, who Dakota Johnson ends up with in the film. But if you've watched movies, there was no way she was going to end.
- [10:25]
D
Up with the rich guy, the Pedro Pascal character.
- [10:28]
C
Indeed. So this has become such online discourse that it has made it offline to Celine Song, where I think she's promoting the film overseas. It's been brought up to her and instead of playing into this kind of viral memey reaction to her movie. She gave a super serious answer.
- [10:51]
F
So I'm very concerned about the way that we talk about people who are poor. And I think the thing that's very important to me is to stress that when poverty is not the fault of the poor. And I think that given that it is very brutal, I find it very cruel to talk about John as a character who loves Lucy and who is a beautiful character being played beautifully by Chris, and to talk about him as in such cruel terms as broke boy, it doesn't make me laugh, actually. It just makes me feel very concerned that anybody would talk about my movie and my characters. And then to really talk, think about it in such classless terms, even the whole movie is about fighting the way that capitalism is trying to colonize our hearts and colonize love.
- [11:36]
C
I'm of two minds about this. I do feel bad for modern journalists who are eternally under pressure to deliver viral interview clips. It is the hot sauce and chicken shopification of celebrity interviews. But good on Celine song for not taking the bait. I mean, this goes back to my point about the Sarah Jessica Parker New York Times interview. This is online discourse that the creators and the talent of these things don't need to be a part of. Like, there are some celebrities who can engage in this kind of discourse and give back what the interviewers are trying to get, like a Jeff Goldblum, a Taika Waititi. I don't know if Celine song Jared Jessica Parker are gonna give you pithy, funny answers.
- [12:22]
D
And you know what? Respect. And I'm with her. Poverty is not the fault of the poor. However, if you have seen this movie, this man did choose to be an actor, right? We don't know if he's a good actor.
- [12:34]
C
Even some might say he's not a good actor.
- [12:37]
D
I just want to point out the majority of people who pursue creative professions can't make enough money to live because the market is so competitive. You know, whether you're an underemployed actor or a DJ or a fine artist, at a certain point, it can become a lifestyle choice. Like, you choose your creative expression over a job that will give you health insurance, which I totally get. I totally support that. But I don't know. I don't know if it's capitalism's fault that this character is broke.
- [13:08]
C
And I don't know if her film is pushing forward the narrative about how capitalism is colonizing love.
- [13:16]
D
Yeah, I didn't really get that.
- [13:18]
C
Also, and this is why I Do not like. Again, that online discourse is. Is, as I've called it, breaking containment. Because the broke boy propaganda conversation is sort of parallel to the film itself. I think the broke boy propaganda conversation to go back to Sex and the City and just like that is basically the Miranda Steve dynamic. The people that don't like Miranda and Steve who felt like she lowered herself to be with him. And that's kind of how I've taken this conversation to mean that women that are upwardly mobile, successful, that date men who are not as financially secure as maybe their female partners, that ultimately the female not only financially supports their partner, but also is doing an excised amount of mental and emotional labor that basically they're doing everything that this relationship isn't 5050 is how I took the broke boy propaganda in this economy online discourse to bead.
- [14:18]
D
You know, who hates a broke boy? Female rappers and R and B singers like. And this is the kind of music that I have grown up on, right? TLC hates Grubs, Cardi B doesn't think that broke boys deserve pussy.
- [14:32]
C
Yet how do these women get this perspective because they date broke boys and it doesn't go well for them. Again, funny conversation to have. We're laughing about it now. Don't bring it to Celine song's door unless you want an uber serious answer.
- [14:48]
D
I think we have to make a distinction though between a scrub and a broke boy, because that's important.
- [14:53]
C
Go on. Well.
- [14:54]
D
Well, a scrub is someone that just feeds off of someone else that has no ambition. That's not the case with the Chris Evans character. He is ambitious, but again, I can't guarantee that he's a good actor. So I don't know how delusional or not delusional this character is.
- [15:10]
C
I think another thing that works against this film is all of the actors are a little too old to be playing these roles. I assume that the Chris Evans actor character is supposed to be in his mid, maybe late 30s, but he is played by Chris Evans who was in his early 40s. I also find whatever is going on with his hair, whether it's a lace front or he went to Cherokee during the pandemic, very distracting.
- [15:37]
D
Yes, it is completely incorrect for the character.
- [15:40]
C
Also, what's inherently an issue of portraying an actor who is struggling in their career, especially later in life, who's never had a big break, is it's being portrayed by a very successful actor like Chris Evans, who is a huge star because of these Marvel movies, is now going back to an indie film and pretending like he's an actor who hasn't made it.
- [16:03]
D
But you know what, I did really enjoy this movie. I feel like it's been a divisive film though. People really love it or they hate it.
- [16:10]
C
Again, I really enjoyed the film. I think it is worth a rewatch even though it had a few things going against it. But as I think we said at the time and it remains true, more.
- [16:21]
D
Movies like this, more romantic comedies that are a little bit more highbrow and tasteful.
- [16:27]
C
Maybe it doesn't need the dark subplot that we won't spoil for those who haven't seen it. But as a whole, I would rather movies like this than not.
- [16:37]
D
Then like a shitty straight to Netflix rom com certainly.
- [16:42]
C
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- [18:20]
D
So unless you've been living under a rock, you probably heard that Taylor Swift has an album coming out. It is called the Life of a Showgirl. And as a Taylor fan, I am very excited about this. But I also want to hold space for the people who find a new Taylor Swift album cycle to be deeply traumatic. I do feel for you guys. That must suck.
- [18:42]
C
Well, I was going to ask you, is it silly for me to have thought maybe, seeing that this woman has been touring for two years straight, a two year tour where she released three albums, that maybe we would get a year or two before a new album came out?
- [19:00]
D
It's been a while since Tortured Poets came out.
- [19:02]
C
I guess so. And colored me shocked that I learned that while she was on the European leg of the Eras tour, she was flying back and forth to Sweden to make this record. Do you think that's why she was trying to sue the Twitter account that was posting her private jet info?
- [19:21]
D
Perhaps. I'm excited about this album for a variety of reasons, but mostly because she is re teaming with Max Martin and Shellback, who produced some of her biggest pop songs, blank space, bad blood, 22, what have you.
- [19:37]
C
They're also the producers of Reputation.
- [19:39]
D
Well, they produce some songs on Reputation, but Jack Antonoff produced other songs on Reputation. But after Reputation she stopped working with them and it became more Jack Antonoff focused. And then of course she also worked with Aaron Desner on Folklore and Evermore. But that sound, that Taylor Antonoff sound has really defined her for the past decade.
- [20:05]
C
I was going to say again, as a Taylor Swift outsider, but you know, as an ally to you as a Taylor Swift fan. With this album, it seems like she's going back to the more pop kind of music that she makes. From the visuals, from the way she's rolling it out, it does seem like she wants to convey to her fans like, okay, I'm tired of being sad in the forest. Like we're back to Bangers.
- [20:28]
D
Thank God. I think the most encouraging detail about this album is the fact that it only has 12 songs. I like a tightly edited Taylor album. Her early records were very, very tight, whereas the last two records were basically double albums if we are to consider the expanded editions as canon.
- [20:50]
C
So again, what I've learned about this album because I wanted to be able to talk to you about this. So it's her 12th record. Her 12th album and 12 songs. Keep it on theme.
- [21:02]
D
I'm not privy to like any of that number shit that she does.
- [21:06]
C
Okay, well, do you want to get into. I learned that Taylor and her boyfriend Travis Kelce are very into numerology because she announced this album on her boyfriend's podcast, New Heights.
- [21:18]
D
I did watch that. All two hours of it. I'm not sure why I did that exactly. It was way too heterosexual for me. The vibes were a world away from anything that I understand. But I came away from it with an important realization, which is that Jason Kelce is actually hotter than Travis Kelce.
- [21:39]
C
Oh, 100% party brother. Always hotter than the traditionally hot brother.
- [21:44]
D
Yeah, he's way more masculine. He's like a provincetown Bear. Week 10. Whereas I think Travis is a bit more like someone who might spend a little too much time in the throwing fits.
- [21:59]
C
Subreddit the impression that I got about Travis Kelce is this was the longest piece of media I've seen him talking. Although, to be fair, he spent most of the interview just looking at Taylor Swift adoringly. And I don't mean this in a derogatory way. He's a tad simple, is he not?
- [22:16]
D
Yeah, it seems like he may be a little bit intellectually outpaced by Taylor. And certainly on the show, his brother is the one that was really conducting the interview. I don't know if that is outside of the norm for this show. Obviously, this is the only episode I have ever listened to and probably will ever listen to.
- [22:35]
C
Yeah, and it's funny because. So Travis Kelce was in Happy Gilmore 2. But I'm gonna say that J. Jason Kelsey is probably the better of the two of them as an actor, because there's no way that this was Jason Kelsey's first time learning about Taylor Swift's new album.
- [22:53]
D
I think it actually was. I think I read that. I think they actually did surprise him, was my understanding, but he probably didn't care that much.
- [23:01]
C
He seems like an overly excitable guy in the best way. Like, that man is living his life to the fullest. And I know that this is beside the point, but I do need to know what Travis and Jason Kelsey's podcast setup is. Because they record remotely in different states, their cameras, their audio, and most importantly, as we've learned, their Internet connection is crystal clear. Chelsea and I are like 2ft apart at the moment, and we can barely make it work. Can I ask you another thing about Taylor Swift and her albums?
- [23:33]
D
Sure.
- [23:34]
C
Okay. Even though there are 12 songs, looking at her Instagram, it seems like there's already three alternate versions of this album that isn't even out until October 3rd.
- [23:44]
D
There's way more than three. I think there's five or six at this point. I've lost count. But it is fun seeing the rollout of all These different photographs that were taken by Merton Marcus for her album. Great photos for a Taylor Swift album. They also shot the Reputation album cover. The graphic design, however, the collage effects the type. Like, whoever did that should be put on trial for their crimes.
- [24:11]
C
Right. So the main album that you revealed on New Heights is her sort of submerged in a bath with only her face showing, which I imagine is a reference to her song. What is it? Life of Ophelia, potentially.
- [24:25]
D
Although it's just kind of a trope of fashion photography and celebrity portraiture at this point.
- [24:31]
C
I did like how Travis Kelce, when she was unveiling the song list to Jason Kelce, Travis Kelce was like, you know what Ophelia is? You know what Ophelia's from Jason. Kelsey's like, I mean, Hamlet. I don't. And then it just was so funny watching something that's so outside our pop culture touchstones. Like, there really is two Americas Chelsea.
- [24:53]
D
Oh, yeah.
- [24:53]
C
Because when Taylor Swift revealed that there's a song called Elizabeth Taylor, and Travis Kelce says to his brother, do you know who that is? And he's like, I'm just nodding my head, man. I was like, oh, yeah, of course. Why would the defensive lineback from the Philadelphia Eagles know who Elizabeth Taylor?
- [25:14]
D
This is why we need to spend more money on education in this country.
- [25:18]
C
Not for us to learn more about football, for footballers to learn more about old Hollywood.
- [25:24]
D
It's crazy to think that this is how an entire generation of people will learn about Elizabeth Taylor.
- [25:30]
C
Well, it's because there's no more E. True Hollywood Story and mysteries and Scandal, which is how we learned about these things.
- [25:37]
D
I'm sure that a lot of people did learn about Elizabeth Taylor from Sex and the City. Actually, if you were someone that watched that when you were like, 12, 13, something like that. But I'm excited for this song, obviously, because I'm an Elizabeth Taylor fan. It's not the first time she's referenced Elizabeth Taylor in one of her songs. What was the one where she's like Burton to this Taylor?
- [25:58]
C
Oh, don't look at me. I don't know.
- [26:00]
D
Oh, and ready for it. Ready for it. There is an Elizabeth Taylor reference, but it really speaks to this woman's timeless allure that Taylor Swift is so obsessed with her. Kim Kardashian also majorly preoccupied with Elizabeth Taylor in her lore, in her look.
- [26:18]
C
Wasn't she supposed to voice a documentary about Elizabeth Taylor? Did that ever come out?
- [26:23]
D
She did. She produced one. I think it was like a BBC documentary or something. I Watched it on a plane. It was quite entertaining.
- [26:31]
C
So one of the alternate versions I saw, the Bug edition, what is it?
- [26:37]
D
The shiny bug edition. See, I would have picked that as the album cover with no text at all.
- [26:42]
C
That's what I was just about to say. That is the way stronger image.
- [26:46]
D
Yeah, I agree.
- [26:47]
C
Now the lead image for the album art, is that the, the kind of crystal bustier that she's wearing, Is that the Bob Mackie designed outfit or is that the one in the photo where she's got the black kind of Louise Brooks Bob?
- [27:02]
D
The one look I know to be Bob Mackie isn't the image on the COVID It's this photo, right, where I'm.
- [27:09]
C
As heterosexual as Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift's relationship. But she looks very hot in these photos.
- [27:15]
D
She does. And the costume that she wears, Bob Mackie designed for a Vegas showgirl review that was called Jubilee.
- [27:25]
C
Yes.
- [27:25]
D
Lauren and I, for her bachelorette party we went and saw Dita Von Teese's show which was a tribute to Jubilee. It was in the same theater as Jubilee. And she also wore these archival Bob Mackie costumes. I love how we're just saying archival for everything. They're just some old ass showgirl costumes.
- [27:43]
C
That were pulled out of some Deborah Vance, Celine Dion esque warehouse in Vegas.
- [27:49]
D
Yeah, exactly.
- [27:50]
C
Did you think it was a little early to announce this album or maybe. My brain has been trained that people make announcements for releases so close to when they're actually going to be released. Like this is not coming out until October.
- [28:02]
D
Early October though. October 3rd. She announced it 50 something days ahead of its release, which I think is a decent amount of time.
- [28:10]
C
Of course you know the days that it was released. Well, you're like, I have my countdown calendar, 49 days to go, Lauren.
- [28:19]
D
I don't have my countdown calendar. Although I did pre save on Spotify.
- [28:25]
C
Now how many of the alternate versions have you bought already?
- [28:28]
D
I don't care about any of that shit. I have never once bought a Taylor Swift album in my life.
- [28:34]
C
Oh, you're stream only.
- [28:36]
D
I'm stream only.
- [28:37]
C
And then is there hope for her RE recording reputation? Because I sent you something I saw that showed that she had maybe trademarked.
- [28:46]
D
Yeah, she filed a trademark for basically a reputation. Taylor's version and a Taylor Swift Taylor's version which is her self titled debut. I do believe that we'll get those RE records from her at some point.
- [28:59]
C
At this point you have to be a completist.
- [29:02]
D
Yeah, for sure.
- [29:03]
C
Is there anything left to say?
- [29:05]
D
Because I don't think so. Hopefully she won't drop the first single between now and when we upload this episode.
- [29:12]
C
Knowing our luck, she probably will. But before we move on, I do want to discuss Travis Kelce and his styling on the COVID and in the issue of gq.
- [29:23]
D
Yeah, let's do it.
- [29:25]
C
So it's styled by Law Roach, and it's giving random.
- [29:29]
D
It's styled by Law Roach photographed by Ryan McGinley to invoke Patti LuPone on it. And just like that, these are the queer masters of our time. And I think both of them, in creating these images, were very much trying to lean into his masculinity and exaggerate it while making sure that something about the image looked a little bit off. But I felt that the totality of the vision was extremely gay. At the end of the day, putting Travis in a house visibility vest with no shirt is like very Village People. The fur outfit is very bear week.
- [30:06]
C
Well, the wait, him and the waiters with Law Roach's gigantic Birkin bag. I'm like, what are we trying to say here?
- [30:14]
D
The one look I cannot stop thinking about is the one where he's wearing a fringed leather jacket, no shirt, worn with, like, baggy white pants tucked into boots and a backwards hat. I can see this working on Channing Tatum in a weird way, but Travis Kelce, It's a choice. And it also just seems a little vaguely humiliating. Although I love when straight guys are humiliated by gay stylists in this way.
- [30:42]
C
Oh, Chelsea. My favorite sub genre of fashion editorials is when gay stylists give straight men, either actors or athletes, leather to wear in editorials. One of my favorite examples of this is there is an old W magazine editorial with Charlize Theron and Michael Fassbender from when Prometheus came out, where he is in leather pants and a leather vest and he's strung up and it's vaguely bdsm. And I'm like, this is so embarrassing for everyone involved.
- [31:12]
D
Well, they also did that to Bruce Willis in W magazine as well. Yeah, it's obviously musicians can wear leather and have it not be humiliating, but there's something about actors in particular. And yes, I think Travis Kelce football players fall into the same category that where something just feels a little bit embarrassing. Rolling Stone used to do this all the time with male actors in the 90s, like, put them in, like, humiliating leather outfits.
- [31:40]
C
Well, I feel like Law Roach with his styling has evolved putting straight men in embarrassing leather and pushed it forward, which is putting straight men in embarrassing fur. Yeah, because at one point, Travis Kelce has. I mean, and good on Law Roach for. For being able to pull it back. But in one look, he's got the fur hat, and then in a different look, he's got a fur jacket that's Dolce and Gabbana with matching fur pants.
- [32:05]
D
I really liked the one image where he was in the pond with the alligator in the fur hat. That, to me, was my favorite. But again, they put him in all of these really hetero settings. Like, he's in, like, a truck. You know what I mean? Like, he's doing outdoorsy, man. Shit. It veers into camp in that way that Men's Vogue used to veer into camp because they would do a cover that was like Kiefer Sutherland in a shearling jacket. Like, with a fucking horse.
- [32:33]
C
Well, yeah. And it's also. A lot of it features Travis Kelce in Swampland. Like, you almost expect that Lana Del Rey's husband is like his tour guide, showing him all of the crocodiles and snakes.
- [32:48]
A
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- [33:45]
D
Anyway, speaking of Law Roach, should we get into Project Runway?
- [33:50]
C
Absolutely. My consumption Project Runway has been spotty over the years. I, of course, watched during the initial years. I've gone back and watched the newer iterations with Karlie Kloss. I frankly felt like that iteration was a bit defanged. And imagine my surprise that this new version of Project Runway, they got Heidi Klune back and the show is bitchy again.
- [34:14]
D
Yes, thank God this show.
- [34:17]
C
I don't know where you watched it, but. Right. Project Runway was a Bravo show. Then it moved to Lifetime. Now it is on Freeform, which was ABC Family, and I watched it on Disney.
- [34:29]
D
I have no idea where I watched it. So Law Roach is very much the Michael Kors of the show. And thank God, someone needed that. I do really think that someone has to be critical on these fashion competition shows. Although Law Roach is, like, extremely mean. Like, he makes people cry and shit.
- [34:49]
C
Okay. For those who have not watched the show, there are these demon gay identical twins, the Estrada twins, Jesus and Antonio, who it is very clear to see. Christian Siriano, who stepped in as the Tim Gunn role, and Law Roach. Hate both of them and make them very aware of that fact. And you know what? They need to be told this because their looks are ugly, their attitude is despicable, and their confidence is unwarrante. And because of all of these things, it makes for great reality television.
- [35:21]
D
Yeah.
- [35:21]
C
Please don't get me wrong. I do want these two on the show for as long as possible because they make it entertaining, but they are not good designers, and they keep fighting. Law Roach.
- [35:32]
E
I love the code. I think it's fabulous.
- [35:35]
F
I hated it. I was the only one. I was out judged.
- [35:39]
D
Hate is such a big word.
- [35:41]
F
It's a short word. It's only four letters. I'm sorry if you hate the coat.
- [35:46]
C
I hate the whole look. He was right to hate the whole look, for sure.
- [35:51]
D
And just for context, Nina Garcia was the one that said that she loved the coat. Heidi was the one that jumped in and was like, hate is a big word. I think she probably meant a strong word. But anyway, I think there is a thing with Project Runway where Heidi and Nina Garcia are judging these looks on a curve for Project Runway. They always have. Like, if Nina Garcia had a studio appointment with a designer that showed her that coat, like, it's not ending up in Elle magazine, there's no way in hell.
- [36:24]
C
Right?
- [36:24]
D
But there's something about Project Runway where it's like they have to sort of see the best in certain people, or else they would just hate everything. Probably.
- [36:33]
C
Yeah. I mean, I think you and I can definitely relate to this in regards to. And just like that, where if you just hate something continuously, there's nowhere to go. Like, certainly Heidi is. Unless it's, like, truly out of bounds. She is always the positive one. Nina Garcia can go either way. Great to have her back, by the way. And then, yeah, La Roach is the meanie, and he can be. And in episodes. So there's been about four episodes. I think you watched the first couple in this latest episode, La Roach is critiquing one of them, Jesus or Antonio, that the reason he didn't like one of these looks was the styling. And it's styled with denim boots. And he's fighting Law Roach. On how the outfit is styled. And La Roach is like, no, listen to me. I know what I'm talking about.
- [37:23]
D
Well, I think if you're going to send something down the Runway, you should be able to defend your decision. You should stand by your work a hundred percent. But you should also be able to, at the very least, hear what Law Roach is saying and let him get a thought out.
- [37:39]
C
Also, I don't know which one of these twins keeps doing this, but one of them has brought the ugliest fabric and has imposed his team using it not once, but twice. Like, he brought outside fabric. Because the first challenge is Disney princesses are Disney villains, and they're split up into different houses.
- [38:00]
D
Okay, I watched that one. The villains were far superior, but I think that that's because everything was black. Whereas the sense of color that some of these people had, like, if they weren't designing in black, it would probably be a disaster for sure.
- [38:13]
C
And villains is much easier to do a high fashion look for.
- [38:16]
D
Not necessarily.
- [38:18]
C
We also haven't brought up the fact that with this season. And again, maybe they've done this previously, I've jumped in and out of Project Runway, but it seems with this new iteration of the show, they have gone out of their way to cast past contestants and put them back onto the series. And I just gotta say, if I was the first person to get voted off of a competition show not once, but twice, I would have to just give up being a fashion designer.
- [38:44]
D
Yeah, well, it's a very particular kind of person that goes on Project Runway because now we have the Internet. People don't necessarily need the exposure of Project Runway in the same way. It's the same problem that American Idol has had in getting good contestants in 2025. But also, it's like, these people have to be good at sewing, which a lot of designers today aren't. I would like to see a show like this where they do have production resources.
- [39:13]
C
That would be interesting if. And it seems like they're dropping the episodes weekly. If, as the competition goes on and it gets fewer and fewer, that they are able to have access to a production team.
- [39:26]
D
Cause they did that with the streetwear Project Runway type show. What was that called? We both watched it.
- [39:33]
C
The Gigi Hadid one.
- [39:35]
D
No, it wasn't.
- [39:36]
C
Next on Fashion.
- [39:37]
D
No, we fully watched it and we talked about it on the podcast.
- [39:41]
C
This is vaguely sounding familiar. The hype.
- [39:44]
D
Yes, that's what it was.
- [39:46]
C
Oh. Aired on hbo. Max.
- [39:48]
D
Yeah, but I thought that was smart.
- [39:50]
C
Sorry, I'm looking at the AI overview of the show that we totally watch. And I've completely forgotten about emerging designers competing for $150,000 prize and a valuable cosign from judges offset.
- [40:02]
D
What more could you want? Can we also talk about this rumor about Law Roach buying Ungaro or not buying it himself, but essentially trying to assemble a team of investors to buy Ungaro from its current owner so he can revamp it.
- [40:21]
C
So this was reported by Lauren Sherman in her Puck News newsletter, which is a great resource. And yeah, I mean, it makes sense. As someone la Roach obviously has bigger ambitions in the fashion industry, he has stopped styling. He very famously.
- [40:41]
D
I mean, he hasn't stopped styling in any capacity, I should say.
- [40:46]
C
I guess more famously, he stepped down from full time styling, but is still styling two or three clients.
- [40:53]
D
It's like he's stopped identifying as a stylist.
- [40:56]
C
That's what it is.
- [40:58]
D
But he is styling. More than ever.
- [41:00]
C
I would like to stop being referred to as celebrity stylist. So yeah, I mean, of all of the fashion houses that have not been revamped or I guess are still dormant, Ungaro makes a lot of sense. Remember when Lindsay Lohan designed for them? Briefly?
- [41:19]
D
Yeah, of course. In my lifetime I have seen so many designers come to this spread. It is honestly like one of the most ran through luxury brands that we have at this point. Because yeah, we had Lindsay Lohan, we had Peter Dundas, we had Giles Deacon. So many people. And they've never ever figured it out somehow.
- [41:40]
C
Wow. I didn't realize that the man, Emmanuel Ungaro only passed away in 2019.
- [41:46]
D
Yeah, but he had retired a lot earlier. And then Giambattista Valli had taken over from him, I believe. And then it kind of just spiraled into this insane thing where they had a new creative director every like two or three years. I vaguely remember Esteban Cordazar also designing for Ungaro at some point. And yeah, soon ye soon me soon Law Roach.
- [42:09]
C
You know what? I'd love to see it. Why not?
- [42:14]
A
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- [42:57]
C
Just.
- [42:57]
A
Go to Indeed.com Arts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [43:12]
D
So I also want to talk about Louis Vuitton's new beauty line. They released the first images this week, and the collection was developed in collaboration with Pat McGrath. And it's pretty small in terms of the scope of the products. There are lipsticks, there are tinted lip balms, there are eyeshadow palettes. What looks to be blotting paper. But what has made headlines is the price of the lipstick. The lipsticks and bombs are $160.
- [43:42]
C
Hot damn.
- [43:44]
D
Which is crazy in this economy. The EyeShadow palettes are $250.
- [43:50]
C
Okay, that's more what I wanted to talk about because when I looked up up this collection, I found that more egregious. Although for eyeshadow palette look, they are refillable.
- [44:02]
D
And the refill for the lipstick is $62. The eyeshadow refill is $92. Respectfully.
- [44:08]
C
Respectfully, have you ever run through a lipstick that you've needed to refill?
- [44:13]
D
See, I actually have. But as much as I love Pat McGrath, she doesn't like a brown lipstick. Like I wear like a sheer brown lipstick. This is not something that exists in her world in Pat McGrath Labs or in this Louis Vuitton thing. Like, I'm not gonna wear like a hyper pigmented red lipstick. Although I'm sure it's the best one in the world.
- [44:37]
C
Which is funny because Louis Vuitton bags are primarily brown. If anyone should actually have a brown lipstick, it should be this.
- [44:45]
D
No, it's true. Well, with Pat McGrath Lab, she has some lipsticks that are kind of on the brown spectrum of nude, but nothing I would describe as a sort of classic 90s brown lipstick.
- [44:58]
C
Nothing's giving black honey.
- [45:00]
D
Nothing's giving black honey. Although that's kind of berry ish.
- [45:03]
C
But anyway, you know, when I first saw this headline, I was like, this really just says a lot about our late stage capitalist ecosystem that it seems like no luxury fashion house will be content until they all have a makeup line. But then I read that in addition to this limited makeup line, they will be launching a handful of monogrammed leather goods for the beauty products that, yes, have blotting papers. There'll be makeup brushes, and of course, lipstick trunks. And I think that's the real key. If you're not getting that Louis Vuitton lipstick trunk, that I'm sure will retail for $2,000. Why even bother getting a lipstick?
- [45:44]
D
Yeah, on one hand, I do like the fact that Pat McGrath does make the most luxurious products. Like the packaging is so expensive. She's really making the best things that you can make. Although I think a Pat McGrath Labs lipstick is like what, $40 or something.
- [46:02]
C
Yeah. I was trying to think, is this the most expensive lipstick? And I looked it up and there are way more expensive lipsticks. Christian Louboutin's lipstick retails for I think 210. There's some weird gold case lipstick from not a luxury brand, but to me the most expensive lipstick from a luxury house previous to this was hermes, which is $81.
- [46:26]
D
And honestly, I'm not mad at that. I have one of them only because my sister in law gave it to me for Christmas. She gave me like the perfect classic red. But I actually love the packaging of the Hermes makeup.
- [46:41]
C
I was gonna say, full disclosure, I have two of the lipsticks which if you put them together, is one Louis Vuitton stick in price. And it too was, was a gift to me.
- [46:50]
D
That's like my favorite thing that Hermes does. Like in terms of the way it looks. Pierre Hardy did the packaging. It's very different from anything else that exists in the market.
- [47:00]
C
And we should say that the reason that the Louis Vuitton lipsticks cost what they do is, is because of the monogrammed lipstick case. I mean, you're buying more than the lipstick itself. It is an accessory.
- [47:14]
D
Well, you're buying what looks like a very heavy lipstick. Like those Issa Maya French dick lipsticks were like 100 pounds. Like they're heavy as fuck. So it's kind of like when you hold that, you, you're kind of like, oh, I see where the money went. But it is insane, especially for Louis Vuitton, because I feel like that is a brand that actually does have kind of entry level products. Like all of the monogram canvas stuff that they are famous for isn't leather. A lot of it is cheaper than your average handbag these days.
- [47:46]
C
I mean, I just feel like this is fodder for rich influencers. Like you know that someone is going to get the lipstick trunk and get all the lipsticks and do an unveiling. Yeah, Product is just content. Content is just product.
- [47:59]
D
I think the thing is, is that neither of us probably care about Louis Vuitton that much. Like if it was my favorite brand, I would be like, fuck, yes, I'll buy this $160 lipstick. But I just personally wouldn't care enough to go there.
- [48:13]
C
Very true. And they're not giving you a brown lipstick that you love, so who cares?
- [48:17]
D
Yeah.
- [48:18]
C
So, Chelsea, this is sort of our summer, or I guess end of summer culture wrap up. We're discussing all the things we missed this summer. And I was trying to think of the things that I did over the summer that I could talk about. And then I realized I haven't left my house in two and a half months. So I have nothing to to the every outfit Summer culture report. So hopefully you. You did some cool shit.
- [48:42]
D
I've had a handful of fun cultural experiences. I don't think I told you, but I saw Melissa Etheridge and the Indigo Girls perform at a county fair in Orange County.
- [48:54]
C
Excuse me?
- [48:55]
D
Yeah, I wanted to go and see them in LA cause they were performing at the Greek, but I was out of town that week. So the only solution was to then drive to the fairgrounds in Orange County.
- [49:07]
C
I hope that you stop by at the South Coast Plaza, because that is the only SoCal location of a Courage store.
- [49:15]
D
See, I wish I had known that it was such a scene. I saw some of the butchest women I've ever seen in my life. Like cargo shorts, crew cuts, the whole thing. Like, I sent a video of the show and the crowd to Tat's lesbian aunt who had seen this show in the Bay Area. And she was like, oh, that's wild. Like, at the show I went to, it was like, all lesbians. And I was like, those are lesbians. Like, those are women.
- [49:42]
C
She's like, I didn't know Orange county had such a group of men that love Melissa Etheridge.
- [49:48]
D
It was truly so major. The vibes were great. Everyone was having the best time.
- [49:53]
C
What did Tat think of the scene?
- [49:55]
D
Oh, Tat loved it. Tat was obsessed with it. Because these women were pulling some really major looks. Not dissimilar from what Balenciaga has been putting out there in recent years, but.
- [50:05]
C
Because it was Orange County. Probably not Balenciaga. Fitz.
- [50:08]
D
No, but yeah, I've seen the Indigo Girls before, but not for years. I had never seen Melissa Etheridge before, apart from one time I was in the studio audience at Conan and she was the musical guest. But that has been my only experience with Melissa Etheridge. And it was fun seeing her because the Indigo Girls songs are so introspective. They're always addressing existential and philosophical issues, whereas Melissa Etheridge's songs are. Are all about cheating or being cheated on. Like every single one. This woman Is a dirty dog.
- [50:44]
C
Yeah, I guess Come to My window is. Is yearning to.
- [50:48]
D
Yeah, Come to My Window is definitely a cheating song. I want to come over. Also a cheating song. I'm the only one. I mean, she doesn't have songs that aren't about cheating.
- [50:57]
C
Right. I'm either in a relationship, and I can't leave the house to have sex with you, so come to my window, or I've left my window to come to your window to sleep with you.
- [51:07]
D
Yeah. I mean, I would dial numbers just to listen to your breath is a lot. But it reminded me of the fact. Do you remember the circumstances of her.
- [51:15]
C
Last divorce with the actress that was in the show Popular?
- [51:19]
D
Yes. Thank you.
- [51:20]
C
I'm sorry, Chelsea, do you think that I can be friends with you without knowing these obscure celesbian details?
- [51:26]
D
Okay. Because, yeah, she was married to Tammy Lynn Michaels from Popular. This was her second marriage.
- [51:34]
C
Well, how could we forget? She was married to Lou Diamond Phillips ex wife who left him to be with her, and they together had children using.
- [51:46]
D
What's David Crosby.
- [51:47]
C
David Crosby sperm.
- [51:49]
D
And then the paternity reveal on the COVID of Rolling Stone. That was truly one of the craziest things I've ever seen in my life. But, yeah, after they broke up, she got with Tammy and they had a couple kids. The relationship went south. I guess they separated. And then, as I remember, Melissa Etheridge's assistant accidentally delivered a box of dildos to, like, the house that Tammy was renting. Like, she thought they were for her, but actually, like, Melissa had ordered them from, like, like, dildos.com or whatever.
- [52:25]
C
A box of dildos.
- [52:27]
D
A box of, like, not used dildos. But she had clearly bought these dildos.
- [52:32]
C
No, no, I understand.
- [52:33]
D
For someone.
- [52:34]
C
No, no, no. My issue isn't that they might have been used dildos. My issue is how many dildos in a box of dildos.
- [52:42]
D
She did not specify. And we only found out about this because this was the era when celebrities still had, like, websites and blogs that they would update. So as I recall, like, Tamielynn Michaels, like, wrote about the fact that, like, she got this box of dicks. And that's when she realized, like, oh, she's seen someone else before.
- [53:03]
C
TikTok, we had blogspots.
- [53:05]
D
So, yeah, that was an incredible cultural experience that I had this summer. I also did a bunch of fun stuff when I was in New York that I didn't talk about because we were in the thick of end. Just like that. But I went to Library180, which fuckettes in New York should really take advantage of it is a reference library. That friend of the show, one of my closest friends, Nikki Igel, started using her own very extensive collection of books and magazines. And it's really, really fab. It's free, it's open to the public, but you have to make an appointment.
- [53:40]
C
Tell her we sent you.
- [53:42]
D
Yeah, exactly.
- [53:43]
C
And it had an amazing write up in the New York Times and I'm so excited to go there. When I go to New York in the fall. I think the part that excited me the most that I would love more details about is it seems like Nikki has created a back room for all the adult ephemera that she has, including like a red curtain.
- [54:03]
D
Yeah, it's modeled after video stores with adult sections, you know, and you go through this weird, like plastic curtain, basically, and then you're in this little black room that has like, not hardcore porn. I would say some of the more interesting fetish magazines, like O Magazine, not to be confused with the Oprah magazine.
- [54:24]
C
However, you have both.
- [54:26]
D
I have both. I am fans of both magazines. It's just a really special space. She's been talking about this library for so long. It's insane to see it finally come together. But yeah, I think we may be doing something fun with her a little later this year. So stay tuned for that.
- [54:43]
C
Wait, what?
- [54:44]
D
I'll tell you later. Also, if you're in New York, while you're in the financial district, if you haven't gone to that new Printemps store, it's fabulous. You have to go, Lauren.
- [54:58]
C
This is the New York location of the famous Parisian department store.
- [55:03]
D
Yeah. And the buy is a little bit mid, like it's kind of conservative leading. But the design of the store is spectacular. There's multiple bars and restaurants within this space. One of the bars is basically in the middle of the women's department. And you can just get a glass of champagne and walk around the entire store like it's very fab. And you don't feel like you're in New York at all.
- [55:26]
C
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
- [55:28]
D
It's a good thing. You feel like you're in Europe. Also, a fuckette works there. His name is Luke, but he's gay.
- [55:35]
C
I'm so happy we've added now a new dimension to the Lukes. There are straight Lukes and now we have gay Luke.
- [55:41]
D
Oh, I also saw the exhibition at the Costume Institute. Super fine tailoring black style, which we talked about a little bit around the Met gala, which is a good show but very Very upsetting the historical context. Well, like, one of the first pieces you see is a coat designed by Brooks Brothers that was worn by an enslaved child. Like, it's very, very sad. And if you spend some real time in there and read all of the little plaques, you will learn about some fucked up shit. But then you turn a corner and it's like, oh, it's Prince's ruffled blouse or it's Sylvester's sequin jacket and it's really fab. But it's a small exhibition. It's basically in one room. And I think the best part was probably the zoot suits. And the zoot suit inspired stuff, as well as the pieces from Andre Leontelli's wardrobe, of which there were many. There was a few different looks and then a set of his luggage.
- [56:38]
C
I still think a missed opportunity for the, for the Met Gala red carpet. Not enough zoot suits, not enough exaggerated proportions.
- [56:45]
D
Yeah, I agree. Although when I was in there, I have one exhibition design gripe which is not unique to the show. I just wanna state generally that I think the mannequins are getting too high up.
- [56:57]
C
Well, I think this started during the camp exhibition to show as many looks as possible. They've started stacking mannequins.
- [57:04]
D
They've started stacking them. And I understand the reason. Like, when I was a teenager, I went to the Jackie O exhibition at the Met of her wardrobe and I waited for two hours to get in and then when I got in, it was like wall to wall and I couldn't see shit. Like I couldn't see this bitch's Chanel suit to save my life. So I think another part of the reason as these fashion exhibitions are getting more popular is that they're bringing things up so that there's more visibility. But then sometimes they put things like way, way up there that are actually quite, quite intricate and would benefit from the viewer being able to get a little bit closer.
- [57:44]
C
Alternatively, you need to be able to rent binoculars if they're going to keep stacking these looks higher and higher.
- [57:50]
D
Yeah, but yeah, those were my culture highlights. I haven't done a ton this summer either. I have mostly been at home.
- [57:56]
C
Well, we had to watch in just like that. I mean, what else could we have done?
- [58:00]
D
Okay, what else do we have to.
- [58:02]
C
Talk about the movie Eddington, which I missed in theaters on account of having a newborn. But fortunately for me, and I think sadly for the future of the theatrical movie going experience, Eddington was available to rent just a month after it came out.
- [58:18]
D
Yeah, I Watched it on Demand also. What did you think? I'm dying to know your thoughts about this movie.
- [58:22]
C
Actually, as someone I didn't see, Beau is afraid. I did enjoy Midsummer. I also enjoyed Hereditary a great deal. I also my first experience with this film was seeing the online discourse that was very mixed about the movie. And I'm happy to report I loved it.
- [58:41]
D
Wait, what was the online discourse exactly? Because I am not as chronically online on, like, film Twitter as you are.
- [58:48]
C
Well, this film was sort of a Rorschach test where the commentary ranged from this film isn't about anything to this film is both siding too much to Ari Aster is a centrist shill.
- [59:01]
D
That's an insane take. Take like that's a misread of the entire movie. I think, I guess we should say what it's about for people who haven't watched it. It's basically about this small town called Eddington. Spoiler alert.
- [59:13]
C
In New Mexico, a fictional town. And if you wonder if my husband, who is from New Mexico, gave a running commentary track about New Mexico as we were watching the film, the answer is yes.
- [59:26]
D
Oh, that sucks. But basically it takes place in 2020 and it shows how this town becomes fractured because of COVID And it's kind of this western adjacent battle between Joaquin Phoenix's character, he plays the chief of police, that's kind of like he hates the mask mandates and things like that. And then Pedro Pascal, who is a liberal politician running for mayor, running for reelection.
- [59:56]
C
Yes, he's the mayor. He's the incumbent mayor. And due to a petty disagreement between Pedro Pascal and Joaquin Phoenix, Joaquin Phoenix decides to also run for mayor and things go off the rails. I found this film to have Verhoeven levels of satire about pandemic culture and the fact that, like, we all lost our minds five years ago.
- [60:23]
D
Oh, for sure. He did an excellent job of recapturing that specific kind of psychosis that gripped the nation during that time, which I think is really impressive given the fact that not that much time transpired between when it happened and when this movie was written. You know, it's pretty crazy.
- [60:43]
C
Yeah. I watched an interview with Ari Aster where he was discussing the fact that he has had the script for Eddington for years and years. It's actually what he wanted to make before Beau was afraid and couldn't get the financing for it and said once the pandemic happened and he went back to New Mexico and holed up with his family, he started to put that script and story through the lens of the pandemic, which makes me very curious. What exactly was this script without the 2020 of it all baked into it?
- [61:13]
D
Yeah, I wonder. For me, I was really, really gripped by the first 2/3 of this movie. But my interest started to wane by the end. This film is two and a half hours long.
- [61:27]
C
Oh, it's 20 to 30 minutes too long. I know there's also a lot of discourse about movies are too long, but I just feel like it is a detriment to the story. If it were 20 minutes shorter, I think it would be much stronger because in watching it, I remember being like, wow, this is fairly reserved for Ari Aster. Like, it's not as fucked up as his previous films. And then the last 10 minutes, which I will not spoil, happen and you see what happens to Joaquin Phoenix's character and you're like, yep, that's the Ari Aster. That's the like sick hereditary bent to it for sure.
- [62:03]
D
It does have a very bleak ending, certainly.
- [62:07]
C
I was just so relieved to see a writer and director dealing with contemporary issues because I feel like a lot of our preeminent auteur, independent filmmakers have really been spending their time making films about the past or films that don't have a time period. Like, I'm reminded of post Lady Bird, someone asked Greta Gerwig a question about would she ever make a contemporary film? And she's like, I will never make a contemporary movie because I don't want to have to deal with cell phones because I think they're incredibly ugly and not cinematic.
- [62:40]
D
He did an excellent job of not just the cell phones, but also the way that YouTube, Facebook, social media was presented in this movie.
- [62:49]
C
He's also really figured out how to cinematically show vertical 9x16 video. And that is just taking a vertical video and showing it horizontally. Yeah, as you see in sort of the last sequence of of the film.
- [63:04]
D
Or just filming a phone. Like when Joaquin Phoenix announced that he was running for mayor, I thought he did a great job of shooting that. That.
- [63:10]
C
Yeah. So in watching the movie, this take about the film, that it's either not about anything or that he's basically equally making fun of every side, whether it's the small town sheriff who hates the mass mandate, or it's the liberal coded person who then is actually shilling for big technology. Because the central divide of this town is whether a data center should go into to the town or not.
- [63:39]
D
Yeah, he's roasting both liberals and conservatives. And that makes a lot of people uncomfortable because I imagine that Most people that watch this film are liberal leading, and a lot of those people would probably prefer a clear cut good versus evil situation where the liberals are good and the conservatives are bad. Which kind of only proves Ari Aster's point about our need to sort of form these allegiances at the expense of the community as a whole.
- [64:11]
C
I also think people don't know how to take the film because in addition to that, he's also playing into the prevalent conspiracy theories of that time that still resonate to this day. Whether it's pedophilic predator rings, which you see this through the Emma Stone's character, who's taken by a very charismatic cult leader played by Austin Butler, who was not in enough of the film for me. I agree to this fantastical idea that there are antifa super soldiers that George Soros finances.
- [64:44]
D
Can we also talk about Emma Stone's occupation? This character is married to Joaquin Phoenix. She's clearly clinically depressed. She's watching conspiracy theory shit on the Internet and her job is just selling, like vaguely Mark Ryden adjacent, like felt figurines on Etsy.
- [65:07]
C
But the only person who is buying them is actually Joaquin Phoenix. He's having people that he works with in the police department buy them and then he just pays them back.
- [65:17]
D
Such a specific thing to make fun of. But yeah, I think that people that think that this is pushing a centrist agenda are insane.
- [65:25]
C
I think what the film is trying to say is that ultimately the technology companies that are fomenting this divide ultimately win. I mean, the first shot of the film and the last shot of the film is this data center, which I found so funny that Joaquin Phoenix's character is coded as, yes, this conservative, or you assume conservative because he doesn't like the mass mandate. But really he's completely apolitical because by the end of the film, he does nothing to stop the data center.
- [65:55]
D
Right.
- [65:56]
C
He too falls in line, or really never cared to begin with. He just wanted to take down Pedro Pascal. So, yeah, good for him, him being Ari Aster.
- [66:04]
D
Yeah. Fascinated to see what he does next. And you know, when I think about his movies, hereditary midsommar, straight up horror movies. Beau was afraid I wouldn't even know how to explain that in terms of genre. And I do think that you should watch. But yeah, I would like to see him just make a slightly tighter movie at this stage in his career. I know that he can do it. I don't know if you've ever seen any of his shorts that came out before any of those movies, but there's some amazing ones.
- [66:31]
C
I remember after Midsommar came out, he was like, I have a four hour cut that's actually the definitive version of Midsommar. And I was like, nope, nope, don't need to see it. Either make it a miniseries or make it to how.
- [66:45]
D
Yeah, I can't do that either.
- [66:46]
C
But I'm, I'm thrilled to see filmmakers like Ari Aster want to take on and comment about things that are happening in the present. I'm very thrilled that PT Anderson, his next film, One Battle After Another, seems to be a contemporary film after he spent the last 20 years making period movies. Not that I didn't love them.
- [67:07]
D
Yeah.
- [67:08]
C
But we are in such dire times. I would like to see artists and filmmakers comment about these moments. Although, having said that, going back to kind of the beginning of this podcast, this demand, and really just like the brain rotification of film criticism, like, I don't need Ari Aster to spoon feed this movie to me. And it seems like the reaction to the film, people needed that. And I think it speaks to the culture we're in right now, where I think a lot of people feel like the media I consume, the consumer choices I make, the people behind that have to adhere to my values completely.
- [67:47]
D
Yeah.
- [67:47]
C
And I don't think that that is Ari Aster's job. And in interviews I've seen of him, he's like, I think my political leanings are pretty clear. And what he means by that is like, I'm a liberal that lives in New York.
- [67:57]
D
Yeah, he's described himself as liberal before. He also went on Chapo Trap House. So you can make your own assumptions.
- [68:05]
C
Yeah. If anything, this film is from the mind of a Chapo Trap House listener.
- [68:10]
D
Yeah, for sure.
- [68:12]
C
And I think we've covered it all.
- [68:13]
D
We've covered it all. Our Jones on third salad is here. Let's go eat it.
- [68:18]
C
Absolutely. We'll be back next week. We are returning to our Sex and the City rewatch. We will be doing the episode Frenemies if you guys want to watch ahead of time. And yeah, we'll be back next week with that episode.
- [68:30]
D
Bye, guys.
- [68:30]
C
Bye.
- [68:49]
A
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