A Gut Check on Political Spending

Summary

Everybody’s Business: “A Gut Check on Political Spending”
Podcast: Everybody's Business (Bloomberg and iHeartPodcasts)
Air Date: August 7, 2026
Hosts: Max Chafkin & Stacey Vanek Smith
Guests: Wes Kosova & Dina Shanker

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Episode Overview

This episode takes a “gut check” approach—both literal and metaphorical—to the current state of American political spending, business interests in a highly polarized political climate, and the changing world of food politics. With critical midterm and upcoming presidential elections, the hosts and their guests analyze the impact of big money in politics, the evolving relationship between business and government, and even a new federal government-endorsed cooking show. The show deftly combines election analysis, commentary on business’s role in politics, and a spotlight on food policy and safety trends.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Michigan Upset and the Progressive Wave

• [03:11-05:27]
  • Wes Kosova explains the significance of Abdul El-Sayed’s surprise primary win in Michigan, calling it a pivotal moment for the progressive left. Unlike previous victories in deep-blue states, this upset signals that populist, progressive politics may have real traction in swing (purple) states.
  • Max Chafkin highlights that El-Sayed’s campaign, buoyed by endorsements from Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, prevailed despite a historic $70 million blitz from super PACs aiming to stop him.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Bernie Sanders (clip):
    “In the so-called purple state of Michigan, a tectonic shift took place… [despite] close to $70 million in ads… they voted for a progressive candidate who has the guts to take on the oligarchs.” (04:38)

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2. Business’s Awkward Position in Modern Politics

• [05:27-10:18]
  • Stacey Vanek Smith recalls the Trump inauguration and the initial optimism among big business for deregulatory policies.
  • Wes Kosova points out how much more complicated things have become, with both parties now fielding populist candidates skeptical of big business.
  • Under Trump, “being on the right side at the right time” meant tangible economic and regulatory benefits—but now, even with declining Trump popularity, business interests remain pragmatic in hedging bets.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Wes Kosova:
    "It's not necessarily...that they all love Donald Trump…they wanted to make sure they were on the right side at the right time. The real difference now is just the amounts of money are astonishing." (05:53)
  • On wealth inequality:
    "...the difference between a person working in an Amazon fulfillment warehouse and Jeff Bezos is just so completely out of proportion..." (09:14)

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3. Populist Energy in Both Parties: Where Does the Money Go?

• [12:04-14:35]
  • Max Chafkin observes that anti-corporate, populist rhetoric has seeped into both parties; far-right Republican candidates now echo some left-populist themes, targeting data centers or tech giants.
  • Wes Kosova notes that both sides of the political spectrum are claiming “the system is rigged,” with increasing focus on corporate self-enrichment, further complicating the calculus for big-money donors.

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4. The Federal Cooking Show and Food Politics

• [15:03-24:03]
  • Dina Shanker discusses "The Real Food Show," hosted by Secretary of Health and Human Services RFK Jr., as part of the “Make America Healthy Again” (MAHA) movement.
  • The show, theoretically promoting nutrient-rich, affordable meals, is critiqued for being out of touch with real consumer experience (e.g., using expensive ingredients like wild-caught salmon, avocado mayo, nutritional yeast).
• Memorable Moment:
  • Recipe cost breakdown:
    • Stacey Vanek Smith (on salmon cake recipe):
      "A pound and a half of salmon, a frozen, wild caught salmon, $30...The nutritional yeast was 10 bucks...All told, $62." (28:43-29:23)
  • Dina Shanker:
    "Who keeps nutritional yeast in their pantry? Vegans? I don't know anybody else that does it." (21:32)

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5. Food Safety, Price Inflation, and the Cyclospora Outbreak

• [24:03-28:22]
  • Dina Shanker compares U.S. food safety to a “Jenga tower,” with repeated outbreaks (like cyclospora) signaling growing vulnerabilities as regulatory resources dwindle and climate change exacerbates pathogen risks.
  • The latest cyclospora outbreak—linked to Taylor Farms and Taco Bell—has caused historic levels of illness and two deaths, highlighting poor systemic preparedness.
  • The business of food is getting harder: costs are up, profit margins are shrinking, and companies may cut portions or quality as a result.
• Memorable Quote:
  • Dina Shanker:
    "The food safety situation in this country has never been good. It was described to me once as a Jenga tower. And we just keep pulling blocks out." (24:29)
  • On food safety outlook:
    "Everyone...about food safety issues expects things to get worse because we're not being proactive about making them better." (25:38)

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6. Host Food Challenge: Cooking Show Recipe vs. Taco Bell

• [28:30-31:54]
  • Stacey attempts to procure all ingredients for the RFK Healthy Salmon Cakes—shocked to find the total cost over $60, reinforcing criticisms that government food advice is financially unrealistic for many.
  • Max tries Taco Bell (Enchirito), spending just $14; lauds it as a much cheaper, if riskier, option given the ongoing outbreak.
  • Both hosts reflect on rising food prices, food deserts, and the impracticality of current dietary guidelines for average American families.
• Memorable Exchange:
  • Stacey Vanek Smith:
    "I did not make this meal because it was too expensive…food inflation has gone up by a third since before the pandemic." (29:23)
  • Max Chafkin:
    "I very much upheld my end of the bargain to eat Taco Bell, which I think, well, definitely more economically responsible. I'm not sure if it was responsible from an epidemiological [standpoint]." (29:59)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Bernie Sanders on the Michigan win:
  “A tectonic shift took place in American politics...the people of that state stood up to an unprecedented onslaught of billionaire money.” (04:38)
• Wes Kosova on wealth inequality:
  “...the difference between...a working person and a mega, ultra hyper billionaire now is so beyond anything it used to be...” (09:14)
• Dina Shanker on food safety:
  "The food safety situation in this country has never been good. It was described to me once as a Jenga tower. And we just keep pulling blocks out." (24:29)
• Stacey Vanek Smith on the cooking show recipe:
  "A pound and a half of salmon...$30...nutritional yeast was 10 bucks...All told, $62." (29:21-29:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Political Gut Check: 01:00–02:56
• Michigan Election & Big Political Money: 03:11–05:27
• Business and the Shifting Political Climate: 05:27–10:18
• Populist Republicans & Democratic Infighting: 12:04–14:35
• Federal Cooking Show (“The Real Food Show”): 15:03–24:03
• Food Safety Crisis & Cyclospora Outbreak: 24:03–28:22
• Salmon Cake vs. Taco Bell Host Challenge: 28:30–31:54

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode skillfully maintains its trademark blend of sharp political and economic analysis with irreverent, smart banter. The key theme is that both business and the American public are experiencing a reckoning—over inequality, political power, public health, and what “affordable” or “healthy” really means in the current economy.

Key Takeaways:

• Big political donors no longer have clear “safe bets” as anti-corporate rhetoric ascends in both major parties.
• Grassroots health movements are shaping not just food business decisions, but also how the government tries (awkwardly) to shape public behavior.
• Food safety and inflation pressures reveal deeper cracks in the system, mirrored by the chaos in political spending and strategy.

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For follow-up or feedback:
Send questions, food stories, or recipe attempts to the hosts at [e-mail].

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This summary captures the main arguments and flavor of the discussion—and is perfect for listeners who want the episode’s essence without the full listen.

Transcript

[Wes Kosova]

Modern enterprise.

[Max Chavkin]

It's a lot of moving parts.

[Wes Kosova]

Comcast business helps orchestrate it all with

[Max Chavkin]

SD Wan keeping 150 hospital locations connected

[Wes Kosova]

and zero trust security protecting a bank's 2000 branches. No one does business like Comcast business.

[Max Chavkin]

I love my phone but not my carrier.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

What do I do? Well, there are 250 reasons to join T Mobile.

[Max Chavkin]

Like what?

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

You can keep your phone and your number and T Mobile helps pay it off up to $800 per line.

[Max Chavkin]

So I wouldn't have to buy a new phone?

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yep. So plus your plan price stays the same for 5 years on experience plans. Nice. Find your reason@t mobile.com

[Wes Kosova]

via virtual prebaid guard card typically takes 15 days after

[Max Chavkin]

rebate submission price guarantee on Talk text and 5G data exclusions like taxes and fees apply.

[Dina Shanker]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts, Radio news.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Stacy Vanek Smith, Max Chavkin.

[Max Chavkin]

You know, I think think it's time here on everybody's Business from Bloomberg Business Week for a gut check.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

A gut check.

[Max Chavkin]

We do have the outbreak of cyclospora that is is getting out of control. So there's the literal gut check and then there is the gut check on, on politics. It's a huge week politically. We had this big upset election in Michigan. There's just also a sense that, you know, business interests are under attack from voters.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

And I do think in a lot of ways our whole country is having a little bit of a gut check this summer between the economy and the political divide and the turbo diary and that and that.

[Max Chavkin]

We've got Wes kosova here from BusinessWeek to talk about that.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

We've got Dina SHANKER Also from BusinessWeek to talk about all things food, including a brand new cooking show brought to you by the federal government.

[Max Chavkin]

And I guess we sort of maybe have our own cooking show coming up at the very end.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

We do. Max and I take to our kitchens and bring you, the listener, some very high quality food content. Stay tuned.

[Max Chavkin]

Stacy. Yeah, it is August 2026.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

That's true, it is August.

[Max Chavkin]

Which means we are getting closer and closer to a midterm election. And when you get to the midterm election, people start, start talking about presidential elections. There is so much political news happening right now, including a lot of news that impacts our world, the world of business.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yes, indeed. I actually think this is a really important kind of maybe watershed type moment in the relationship between American politics and business. And I feel like in the next maybe six months to a year, things are going to shift possibly quite dramatically.

[Max Chavkin]

Yeah, totally Agree. And we have Wes Kosova here. He is editor at large at BusinessWeek. You may know him as a columnist in the magazine. Wes is in Washington D.C. joining us from there. How you doing, Wes?

[Wes Kosova]

Hey, I'm good. Thanks for having me here.

[Max Chavkin]

All right, so Wes, the reason we wanted to have you is because, so we're recording this on Thursday, August 6th, two days ago there was a big primary there, basically a primary election every week now. But there was a, a, a pretty big race in Michigan. Abdul Al Said, who was the progressive candidate, tell us how significant this, this, this victory was for, for Al Said.

[Wes Kosova]

So this was a really big deal. You're, you're right. He doesn't identify as a Democratic socialist, but he's definitely part of that left wing, progressive wing, not moderate, run of the mill Democratic, part of the party that's been doing very well this year, winning all sorts of races around the country. But until the win in Michigan, a lot of them had been in solid blue states. And of course we saw the big one that kind of kicked off this whole trend with Mamdani winning the mayor's race in New York.

[Max Chavkin]

You hidden at this, Wes EL Sayed did not run as a socialist per se, but he ran with the endorsement of Bernie Sanders, with the endorsement of aoc, with many of these figures on the sort of progressive populist left who've been running around, you know, essentially saying we got to stick it to the billionaires. Let's listen to a clip of Bernie Sanders who was active in this race, kind of trying to, doing his best to spin this victory or claim victory

[Wes Kosova]

in the so called purple state of Michigan. A tectonic shift took place in American politics. That's what I believe. With an historic voter turnout, the largest voter turnout in Michigan primary history, the people of that state stood up to an unprecedented onslaught of billionaire money. Close to $70 million in ads coming from super PACs like AIPAC and others. And despite that onslaught of money, they voted for a progressive candidate who has the guts to take on the oligarchs and fight for working people and for a sane in moral foreign policy.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

When we first started the show, it was the inauguration happened, the presidential inauguration. And I will never forget the image of Donald Trump with all of these big tech CEOs behind him, these big business people behind him. And the message seemed to be the era of like business friendly deals is happening. How are big businesses feeling now? This seems like a really different atmosphere.

[Wes Kosova]

Yeah, things have just gotten a whole lot more complicated. You know, presidential Races tend to clarify politics in a way that midterm elections don't. You have two big candidates running for the biggest office in the country, as opposed to hundreds and hundreds of candidates running all over the country. But when Trump was elected, you're right, you remember he had that famous line where he said, everybody wants to be my friend. And it was true. You had all of these billionaires giving a million dollars or more for his inaugural parties. And it's not necessarily, of course, that they all love Donald Trump. If you look back at some of their other giving their own personal politics in the past, it wasn't as though that they were kind of standard Republicans, let alone MAGA Republicans, but they could see the power shifting. They could see how it was gonna affect their businesses. And they wanted to make sure that they were on the right side at the right time. And, you know, that's something that businesses have done all the time. The real difference now is just the amounts of money are astonishing.

[Max Chavkin]

And now what we've had is a very unpopular Trump presidency, a Trump presidency that's been defined by kind of shifting policies. You know, the tariffs have not been particularly popular, the war is unpopular, and that feels like it's redounding on the business class right now.

[Wes Kosova]

Yeah, it is. And, you know, when you look at why these companies were kind of cozying up to Trump in the beginning, it was that they understood Trump to be a purely transactional creature. His policies were based on the deals that he wanted to make. Some of them benefiting the things he ran on, some of them benefiting himself, some of them. He just wanted all these powerful people to come and kind of bend the knee to him. And so you saw a lot of these people take Tim Cook of Apple coming into the White House and giving Donald Trump this gold plated award, shaking his hand and saying, Congratulations, Mr. President. You saw the CEO of Intel coming and striking a deal with Donald Trump. You saw all of these CEOs who had gotten in trouble with Trump or gotten on his wrong side, realizing that the way to get back in, to make sure that you weren't on the bad side of a president who liked to take out his anger by punishing companies to make sure that they were on the right side of that. And now what you have is the politics for Trump not looking as good. But the calculation for businesses might not necessarily change. Because if what they're looking for is to protect their own interests, to protect against regulations they don't want, or to get tax incentives that they do want or Any number of things. Trump's own popularity may not be as important as whether or not they're still able to operate more freely than if they crossed him.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I do feel, though, like maybe the tide is turning a little bit against business. Certainly business is sort of a superstar in our economy right now. The stock markets have been setting records, company earnings are coming in, some of them incredibly high. But it also seems like there is a little bit of a wave of socialism happening. There's a lot of protest against data centers. It does seem like there's starting to be a little bit of resistance against big business. Should big business be worried or no?

[Wes Kosova]

So a lot of the backlash I think that we're seeing is just that the difference between a working person and a mega, ultra hyper billionaire now is so beyond anything it used to be. It used to be that Americans didn't resent billionaires because everyone thought, well, I'm going to get rich too one day. But now the difference between a person working and say, a CEO of a company, the difference between a person working in an Amazon fulfillment warehouse and Jeff Bezos is just so completely out of proportion that when we talk about things like the K shaped economy, it doesn't even begin to capture just how vast the difference is. And Donald Trump came into office saying, the system is rigged against you. He meant it in a particular way. And I think that people now, a lot of people who are finding some of these left wing candidates attractive are saying, yeah, the system is rigged against me. And these politicians, including Donald Trump and all the companies that are currying favor with him, are the problem, not the answer.

[Max Chavkin]

Despite the fact that many of the most prominent Democrats in the state, the Gretchen Whitmer the governor had, had endorsed Stevens, not say it. Is this as big an upset, Wes, as Bernie Sanders says it is?

[Wes Kosova]

Yes and no. Everybody loves to read everything into certain races, like all of us in the press are guilty of this. We're looking for tension, we're looking for stories that can explain it all. But as we know, these things are really complicated. And one race doesn't. The reason people looked at this one in particular, because as Sanders said in that clip, this is a purple state. It's not just a democratic socialist candidate, or in this case, a very liberal candidate winning in a liberal place where you'd think, okay, that's where that could happen. It was a test of whether this has a kind of attraction in other places too. And if you look at the amount of money that was spent against him, it really is impressive that he was able to win. You're right that it wasn't this big blowout which would have shown maybe Democrats and Republicans, okay, things have really, really changed. But AIPAC, the pro Israeli American political action committee, spent $32 million to try to defeat him. He's a very strong critic of Israel. Now that he's won, they've said, okay, now we're gonna be really opening up the checkbook and we're gonna be spe to defeat him and other candidates around the country. And you're seeing this in all kinds of other ways where the politics are getting split even within the Democratic Party, where they would want to be focused single mindedly on defeating Trump and instead they're spending half their time just arguing amongst each other about which side of the party should be winning.

[Max Chavkin]

I do want to talk about the Republicans for one second, Wes, because you have been, we have been talking about the Democrats because there was this big Democrat, Democratic primary. And because a lot of this populist energy is happening on the Democratic side, it is happening on the Republican side as well. And, and that is one thing that would really scare me if I were one of these big donors. Because, you know, I, I just wrote a story in BusinessWeek about this kind of very far right candidate, James Fishback. He's like a, a groiper esque. Many of his followers are fans of Nick Fuentes. I mean, this is at the fringes of the Republican Party, but, but this is a guy who's going around in addition to making appeals based on race, making these very populist economic appeals, talking about we gotta stop data centers, we gotta get rid of Palantir, we gotta get rid of Flock. It's, it's almost like Bernie esque stuff. And it's not just, you know, this is happening even when you look at somebody like Ron DeSantis, who's, who's kind of carved out a political identity that is not super friendly to big companies, or J.D. vance, who, who I think right now would be the, you know, consider the front runner for the Republican presidential nomination in the next cycle. You know, he has favored, you know, breaking up tech monopolies. He attacks tech companies like, where does this money go on the Republican side?

[Wes Kosova]

Well, you know, it goes to protect all the interests that you're talking about and it's going to try to find the candidates who are going to give them that voice. You're right. You know, you are seeing that same kind of message, which is the natural outgrowth of Trump's own message, which is that there's a big system and it's rigged against you. And I think that the strain that you're identifying has this common theme of this idea that there is an enormous amount of self enrichment going on from the White House in corporations, among CEOs at all different levels, that is allowing them to get richer and richer and richer by breaking the rules of the game that everybody else has to play. And if you're looking for the kind of next beat of MAGA after Trump and everything that comes along with Trump, that's not a bad place to be, considering that the beating heart of Trump is working class men who are the ones who often are getting really the short end of the stick of Trumpism. And these people, for culture war reasons and other reasons, will never vote for a Democrat, but they're looking for a Republican who's going to kind of voice those concerns, actually do something about it.

[Max Chavkin]

Wes, thank you for being here. Come back soon.

[Wes Kosova]

Anytime, guys.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

So, Max, Stacey, I have a question for you.

[Dina Shanker]

Yes.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Do you watch cooking shows?

[Max Chavkin]

I mean, not with any kind of regularity.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I know you cook for your family sometimes.

[Max Chavkin]

And so every now and then I'll, you know, I'll check in, see what's going on in the, you know, in the world of cuisine on television.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

There is a hot new cooking show that you need to know about and check out immediately. It is called the Real Food Show. It is, I love the name, presented by the Department of Health and Human Services, and it is hosted by none other than RFK Jr. Yes. So this is a cooking show. It's. I've actually kind of thought the idea is pretty cool. The idea is he presents recipes that are sort of whole foods Make America healthy again.

[Max Chavkin]

Right. They got the new food pyramid. This is going to be a chance to show people, I guess, how to apply the new food pyramid.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Teach a man to cook a fish. And the meals are supposed to be less than $5 a serving.

[Max Chavkin]

I got to see a clip of this before I.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yes. Okay, here we go.

[Max Chavkin]

And another element that people don't necessarily talk much about is nutritional yeast. This is actually very good for you. And it adds a ton of umami and richness without having to add things like cheese or any of those other fattier ingredients that might overpower the flavor of the salmon. And then I'm just ready for your microbiome.

[Wes Kosova]

Wonderful. For the microbiome.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

So it's, you know, it's not for everybody, but it's really. But it is for your gut biome.

[Max Chavkin]

It's you know who it's for? It's for Dina Shanker, who's here.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

It is for Dina Shanker, who is a Bloomberg columnist. Her column is called extrasol. You should check it out. And we brought her in to talk about the new RFK Food show. Also the cyclospora outbreak that's been happening, and just the price of food going up so much. We feel like Dina would be a great person to help us, like, round up all of these topics. Dina, welcome.

[Dina Shanker]

Thank you so much for having me back.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Okay, Dina, first of all, you've been writing about food for a long time. How has the food business changed since Trump took office and RFK Jr took his post?

[Dina Shanker]

So it's really interesting because Make America Healthy Again first became, you know, like a nationally recognized political movement of sorts. It's a certainly a grassroots amalgamation of all different kinds of personalities with all kinds of different goals. The first big campaign that actually sort of almost kind of was there at the creation, maybe was part of the creation of this movement was against artificial dyes. That was a campaign led by Vani Hari, who's also known as Food Babe Online. And she has, like, just a massive social following. And she's been running these kinds of campaigns since before influencers online were a thing. She was an activist that used the Internet to bring attention to weird stuff in food. This then sort of became its own political movement, and Kennedy took it up. And so Maha was born. And so when this first happened, when they were first elected, I remember listening to the Smucker investor call for earnings, and someone asked him about Maha, asked the CEO, and he was like, I am not worried about Maha. Fast forward. Every major company is making these promises. They're going to take the food dyes out of their products by a variety of timelines. So the government hasn't actually put out any new regulations. They're just basically relying on companies to live up to their word. They've made these promises in the past, then backed out of them. And it's not the entire food industry, but. But the question is, do they want to be in the spotlight as the company that isn't doing what Kennedy Food Babe and a lot of the public really wants?

[Max Chavkin]

All right, so you have this new administration, this new regime, RFK Jr. Leading the department of Health and Human Services. It's a vast bureaucracy, right? It includes not just the food pyramid, but, but the, the fda, the cdc, the nih, including, you know, being responsible for, you know, surveillance of various foodborne outbreaks such as the cyclospora outbreak that's going on right now. And what is RFK doing right now? Dina, what is happening here? What is this?

[Dina Shanker]

The idea is to be presenting recipes that align with the new dietary guidelines and that are affordable for, I guess, like, everyday Americans. But if you watch this recipe, this cooking demonstration, I don't know who this is for. And I will start by saying that was one really clean kitchen and two really clean aprons. Everything was perfectly prepared. Like, the ingredients were all set up in their own little bowls. Everything just, like, really ready. It just also, like salmon cakes, as you can see.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Oh, yes, we should say now the recipe is like, it's for salmon cakes with wild caught salmon, panko breadcrumbs, avocado mayonnaise, nutritional yeast, and then there's a salad on the side, a white bean salad. So, yeah, talk about the recipe itself, because I think this. This was quite surprising to me because it was pitched as an affordable, nutritious meal. And wild caught salmon is not the most affordable thing at the store.

[Dina Shanker]

It's funny, because salmon cakes are, like, in my mind, oh, that's a pantry dinner. That's like, you've run out of stuff to cook, but you've got, you know, a can of salmon that probably costs you, like, $5 or less at the supermarket. You've got, you know, an egg and some breadcrumbs and whatever, and you can put together some kind of salmon cake. But they decided to use a salmon filet, which they said was had been frozen, and then they defrost, which also takes time. And then they roasted it, which also takes time. Not that long. Salmon doesn't take a super long time to cook, but then you have to wait for it to cool, which also takes time. And like you said, it's not cheap. Can you find a frozen filet of salmon for a reasonable price?

[Wes Kosova]

Sure.

[Dina Shanker]

But why not go with the canned salmon, which is half the price, and all you need to do to prepare that can is open it. So that, to me, felt like a little bit, you know, out of touch with the way somebody just trying to get dinner on the table would actually cook. Now, I actually have a few complaints about the recipe.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Go for it, Dina. We want to know.

[Dina Shanker]

But you know what else makes a salmon cake? Good sauce. You know what? They did not have sauce.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I thought that's what the avocado mayonnaise is for.

[Dina Shanker]

No, they used that in the recipe to help the whole thing kind of bind together.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Also, like, 12 bucks a jar. Yeah. FYI.

[Dina Shanker]

And I mean, but nutritional yeast actually made me laugh, because who keeps nutritional yeast in their pantry? Vegans? I don't know anybody else that does it. So it's not that there's anything wrong with any of these ingredients. It's just that if you want to share with Americans how to make dinner that is affordable and healthy, help me do that in a way that is not completely inconvenient and requires an entire trip to the supermarket.

[Max Chavkin]

If there's one thing I know about RFK is that he's no vegan. But leaving that aside, and I think, like, leaving the recipe aside, there's sort of the question, okay, is this a good recipe? I think we've got the verdict.

[Dina Shanker]

It's. It seems fine.

[Max Chavkin]

It's an okay recipe.

[Dina Shanker]

Maybe.

[Max Chavkin]

But I think the other question maybe, and maybe the more important question is like, is this good politics?

[Wes Kosova]

And.

[Max Chavkin]

And I have to say, this is a series of strange choices made by the Trump administration at a very strange time where, you know, approval ratings are very low, and we should talk about the outbreak in a second. But, like, where you have this outbreak, there are other things they could be doing, and they're choosing to present rfk. Not the most telegenic figure in the administration, not the most relatable. You know, he's a Kennedy. He's known for, you know, running over a bear and then positioning it in a strange way, like a whale carcass. You know, he's got a quirky set of interests, and that's true. And sort of trying to find a way to kind of unify all of that in. In a sort of relatable way, like, here's an idea for staying healthy and. And saving money. And it. It just struck me as a very interesting media strategy. So what are they doing, do you think?

[Dina Shanker]

You know, it's funny because I actually think the concept as a way to get out information about healthy cooking could work. Cooking videos can be great. I watch so many cooking videos that I never turn into actual food.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I have a lot of saved cooking videos in my TikTok stash. Yeah.

[Dina Shanker]

And I like to think that they're gonna somehow inform a meal for me at some point, but it. It just didn't work. It just felt so out of touch. And. And, yeah, like Kennedy, he's such a divisive figure. If you're trying to make something that you hope a lot of people are going to use and watch and enjoy, then, like, don't put a politician in it.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Okay, so There is the RFK Jr. This video there is the Maha movement. There are a lot of interesting kind of dietary movements happening in the US it seems like our relationship with food is changing. At the same time, the business of food has changed a lot because of tariffs, because of, like, there was the egg crisis and avian flu and all these things. How are food companies doing right now? What are they doing right now?

[Dina Shanker]

I mean, the food safety situation in this country has never been good. It was described to me once as a Jenga tower. And we just keep pulling blocks out. And so now we have the cyclospora outbreak, probably outbreaks, I should say, plural. It is historic in that more people have been sickened than have ever been sickened by cyclospora in this country before.

[Max Chavkin]

Two deaths as well.

[Dina Shanker]

Two deaths as well. And you know, the thing that scares me the most out of all of this is that because many of these pathogens thrive in warmer temperatures, we can expect this to continue to get worse. And you would hope that a government would take more proactive steps knowing that, but I don't think that we've seen that happen.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I mean, it feels like the business of food is getting harder. Like the profit margins are getting slimmer, the trends are getting more disparate, and the regulations are. It sounds quite fuzzy. What does that mean for us?

[Dina Shanker]

I mean, food is getting more expensive, portions may get smaller, but not because of regular, just because as food gets more expensive, that would be something that companies could do. I think everyone I've spoken to in the past, you know, six, eight months about food safety issues expects things to get worse because we're not being proactive about making them better. And in fact, as you said, we're actually taking resources away from the regulators whose job it is to protect us.

[Max Chavkin]

So far, two companies, I believe have been linked to this outbreak or two, primarily Taylor Farms, big produce company, major produce company, and Taco Bell. Yeah, the, the, the, you know, small Mexican.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

They got it from Taylor Farms, right?

[Max Chavkin]

Yeah, they did.

[Dina Shanker]

Yeah.

[Max Chavkin]

But, okay, but on Taco Bell, we were talking to you what it was like about a year ago, maybe about how Taco Bell was actually doing very well. I, I can't even remember what, you know, what specifically it was.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

The micro trends, they were like, you know, just had like a different viral thing every week and people. Well, so online viral.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay. So now they are implicated in this, you know, to use the scientific term, turbo diarrhea outbreak. And what does it mean for them? Have they kind of turned the corner? What is this business response looking like? And when can I, as a consumer, safely return to Taco Bell?

[Dina Shanker]

I think we have to wait and see. I think the longer that this goes on, it's going to be hurt. Taco Bell. But whether it hurts Taco Bell as much as it hurts, say, like, McDonald's had an E. Coli outbreak a couple of years ago, and that really, really hurt.

[Max Chavkin]

Well, in about a decade ago, Chipotle had a. Had its own Jack in the box camera. Was it Chipotle a lettuce or a

[Dina Shanker]

Chipotle was like everything.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yeah, that was a few. That was a few different ones. I remember that.

[Dina Shanker]

Yeah. It was to the point where somebody. I wrote a story about a theory that it was like a corporate sabotage because it was, like, so bad.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yeah. And they.

[Max Chavkin]

One of the great Business Week covers of all time. It was a Taco Bell or Chipotle burrito experience. I'm not. I'm going to try to not describe it graphically, but just experiencing an illness on the COVID Oh, wow. So vomiting burrito.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

The vomiting burrito. Well, maybe the steak and sauerkraut diet is. Is the diet for the moment. Yeah. You know, it's great for your gut biome.

[Dina Shanker]

I mean, listen, you have a healthy gut microbiome, and then everything else falls.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Pretty much takes care of itself.

[Dina Shanker]

Yeah. Your skin looks great.

[Max Chavkin]

These claims have, despite what the Secretary of Health and Human Services, goes down, not vetted by the fda. Dina Shanker, thanks for being here.

[Dina Shanker]

Thank you for having me.

[Max Chavkin]

All right, Stacey.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yeah.

[Max Chavkin]

We are back.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

We are back. It's been 24 hours.

[Max Chavkin]

We have completed our assignments.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Yeah, maybe I should go first because I. I had a little bit of a journey with the salmon cakes.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I went to Wegmans. Let me tell you. I was gonna get everything that RFK Jr. Said we needed for the salmon cakes. Now, a pound and a half of salmon, a frozen, wild caught salmon, $30.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay. A pound and a half. That's a lot of salmon. I feel like that's. That's what salmon costs.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

$30. The nutritional yeast was 10 bucks.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay. But that's gonna help your gut microbiome. So I know that's basically. They're giving that away.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Can you put a price on that? Avocado mayo, 10 bucks. And the Dijon mustard was $5, and the panko was $4, and the white beans were $2, and the apple cider vinegar was $3.

[Max Chavkin]

So all told, $62.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

$62.

[Max Chavkin]

Are you impressed that I did that?

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I'm very impressed that you did that. I was so Upset that I went to another grocery store, and it was the same. It was about 60 bucks. I did not make this meal because it was too expensive. And so I thought it would be much more. Of much more nutritional value to talk about food inflation, which has gone up by a third since before the pandemic. And it seems like something that they should be very aware of at the White House and are not aware of. A lot of American families cannot afford that.

[Max Chavkin]

Okay, I want to say two things. One is you're absolutely right. And that this. We. We had the conversation with Dina about how this recipe was a curious choice because of how expensive these ingredients are. But I do feel like you did not uphold your end of the bargain, which is upsetting to me because I very much upheld my end of the bargain to eat Taco Bell, which I think, well, definitely more economically responsible. I'm not sure if it was responsible from an epidemiolog.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

That's true. You did take a lot of health risks.

[Max Chavkin]

And I have to say.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

What did you.

[Max Chavkin]

I spent $14 all in.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

So is this Anchorito.

[Max Chavkin]

That's Enchirito. So just to describe this, it sort of looks like an. Something you might get on an airplane.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

It does look like an airplane.

[Max Chavkin]

Plastic looks to have been maybe micro do, will you. Yeah. I have different sauces for you. There's mild, there's fire, there's diablo, and then there's the special avocado. I paid 40 cents extra for this, just in case.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Well, that I should try.

[Max Chavkin]

Is green.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

What is it?

[Max Chavkin]

But I assume because it's packaged.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Oh, it's little luxuries. How much was the enchirito itself?

[Max Chavkin]

It was like, let me see. It was just over $4.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Okay, what are your thoughts on the enchirito?

[Max Chavkin]

It's fine.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

It's pretty good, right?

[Max Chavkin]

It's not good. The salmon cake would have been better.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

I actually think it's well spiced.

[Max Chavkin]

All right, well, listeners, we will check in. I believe the.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Oh, the.

[Max Chavkin]

The. There's a.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

The dormant p. Yeah, yeah.

[Max Chavkin]

We will check in with you 30 days from now, let you know how this has gone.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

We've got at least a few more shows in us.

[Max Chavkin]

Exactly.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

So these may be the last podcast episodes you'll be able to get.

[Wes Kosova]

So.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

Well, interesting food journey. If somebody out there made the salmon cakes, I want to know if they're good, what you thought, how your gut biome reacted, all those things, or if you ate an enchirito. We want to know.

[Max Chavkin]

Everybody'[e-mail] that's everybody with an S at Bloomer on it.

[Stacy Vanek Smith]

This show is Produced by Jasmine, J.T. green and Stacy Wong. Magnus Henriksen is our supervising producer, Sam Rogich handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Special thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin and Maria Lang. Amy Keen is our executive producer and Cheryl Brumley is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. And if you have a story that should be our business or a special recipe, please send it to us. That is @everybody'sloomberg.net that is everybody's with an [e-mail] thank you for listening. We will see you next week.

[Max Chavkin]

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