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- [00:02]
Katie Greifeld
With LPL Financial, we provide the services to help push you forward when it comes to your finances, your business, your future. The only question should be what if
- [00:10]
Stacey Bannik Smith
you could Paid Advertisement Anna Kendrick is
- [00:11]
Max Chafkin
not a client of LPL Financial, LLC and receives compensation to promote LPL. Investing involves risk, including potential loss and principal. LPL Financial LLC member FinaS IPC the
- [00:18]
IBM Representative
thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM,
- [00:50]
Max Chafkin
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news hi, Max and Stacey. Hey, Jasmine. Hi, I'm Jasmine, producer on the show. And before we start this segment, I thought I would like present you both with something to get you a little bit more in the spirit of the Knicks versus the Spurs. Okay. All right, so I have here. Oh, my God. Jasmine, did you. For you both, did you spare spend Mike Bloomberg's money on Nick shirts? I have a T shirt for you, Max.
- [01:27]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Oh, nice. Wait, what does it say? I want to see. It says.
- [01:30]
Max Chafkin
It says, conference champions.
- [01:33]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Nice.
- [01:33]
Max Chafkin
And I have one for you, Stacy. Oh, nice. Jasmine, I love this. I truly hope that this is licensed merchandise. Of course not. This is straight off of Lexington Avenue right here. I love it. All right. I think I did a good job at guessing your sizes. We are objective journalists here at everybody's business, so I hope we don't tell
- [01:55]
Stacey Bannik Smith
anybody, but we are also New Yorkers Yeah, that's true.
- [01:58]
Max Chafkin
That's a good point.
- [01:59]
Stacey Bannik Smith
We're also New Yorkers.
- [02:00]
Max Chafkin
Disclosure,
- [02:06]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Max, this is an epic week in New York. From Madison Square Garden to Wall street, things are just. It just doesn't get bigger than this. It's epic. Yeah.
- [02:15]
Max Chafkin
Everywhere I look, all over the city, everyone is out there support their favorite team. And of course, that is the IPO of SpaceX, the biggest.
- [02:24]
Stacey Bannik Smith
You just can't ride the subway without people like, are you getting in on the anthropic deal?
- [02:28]
Max Chafkin
Like, yeah, yeah, you mentioned it. Also anthropic OpenAI. It is a big week for public markets.
- [02:34]
Stacey Bannik Smith
It is a big week for public markets. But, Max, that is not the shirt that you are wearing right now.
- [02:39]
Max Chafkin
No. The NBA finals are going on right now. New York Knicks, the team of destiny. Stacy, the team of destiny are on the cusp. The television Ratings are great. The, the World cup is here. We're going to be talking with Randall Williams all about this kind of amazing moment in sports that is happening right now.
- [02:56]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Yes. And we're also talking with the great Katie Greifeld about all of these IPOs and what that means for the markets and for regular people. This is everybody's business. I'm Stacey Bannik. Smith.
- [03:08]
Max Chafkin
I'm Max chavkin. Let's go. IPOs. And the Knicks, I guess.
- [03:13]
Stacey Bannik Smith
And the Knicks. Max, I have not seen that much of you recently because you have had your head down. You've been writing this big, like, mango article on SpaceX.
- [03:28]
Max Chafkin
I don't know Mango, but yes, it's a technical. I have been thinking about, writing, about, talking about, reading, talking to people related to the SpaceX IPO, which is the biggest IPO ever.
- [03:40]
Stacey Bannik Smith
I know. Well, I feel like the summer is supposed to be kind of a sleepy time for the markets. Everyone's kind of relaxing and going on vacation. But oh my gosh, like this month we've got not only SpaceX, but also anthropic OpenAI. They're all going public soon. And like you said, these are not just run of the mill IPOs. These are like the biggest of all time.
- [03:59]
Max Chafkin
SpaceX aiming for $1.8 trillion.
- [04:02]
Stacey Bannik Smith
These are like GDP. This is not.
- [04:04]
Max Chafkin
Oh, my.
- [04:05]
Stacey Bannik Smith
And just.
- [04:05]
Max Chafkin
You haven't even read. I assume you haven't looked at the SpaceX S1, but we will have to talk about GDP scale once we bring in Katie Greifeld, who is here with us now. Hey, Katie.
- [04:16]
Katie Greifeld
Hey, you guys.
- [04:17]
Max Chafkin
Katie is the co host of the Close on Bloomberg tv. Check it out, the podcast Money Stuff. Subscribe a great newsletter, ETF iq, which is very topical for this conversation. You should subscribe to that. Katie, we are so happy you're here.
- [04:29]
Katie Greifeld
I'm thrilled to be here on everybody's business.
- [04:33]
Max Chafkin
All right, so Katie, you live in the world of the markets more than Stacy and I do. What, what is your sort of feeling about this SpaceX IPO? We're recording this two days, I guess, before it begins trading on Friday too. Huge valuation. I don't know. What, what are you seeing? What are you hearing?
- [04:53]
Katie Greifeld
I'm psyched, I have to say. I live in the second to second of market, so it's going to be fascinating to see this company actually come public because it's already especially, I mean, the big three that we're talking about, they're so much a part of the conversation. And even though they're private companies, they have so many tentacles, especially Open AI and Anthropic into publicly listed companies. You think about what's going on with Nvidia and the Magnificent Seven. They've already made such a splash in markets. To finally have them come and IPO feels like such a moment in time. So how do I feel about it? I'm happy that at least for SpaceX, we're finally here. At least for Anthropic and OpenAI, we've seen some initial S1, so we can finally start to like color in the lines of these private companies that we know a lot about. But to get regular quarterly updates from them and have them actually be publicly listed companies, it's just going to help, I think, fit together a lot of the pieces.
- [05:55]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Well, I would love to talk about these numbers a little bit because the numbers are huge, the valuations are huge, and the amount of money these companies are earning is not necessarily in the ballpark of how these companies are valued. I mean, is that just like an old fashioned way of looking at IPOs and companies? Or how do you reconcile the amount of, of money that these companies are like trying to list for and how much they actually seem to be poised to make?
- [06:26]
Katie Greifeld
I don't think it's old fashioned, but it does seem a little passe in the age of AI, you know. Okay, because you're really, you're selling a vision.
- [06:35]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Where we're going, we don't need roads.
- [06:37]
Katie Greifeld
Well, kind of, yeah, like you're, you're selling, you're selling a vision of the future. We're going to put data centers in space, et cetera, et cetera. AI is going to reshape society and this is going to be a central part to how we live our lives. And that's if you're, if you're buying into any AI company going public on day one, but especially, you know, these three. And SpaceX, Elon Musk would argue, is an AI company, not a rocket company. You're sort of buying into that vision. I will say with SpaceX, the numbers that we're talking about and Max, this is something that you're well acquainted with the Elon Musk premium. The fact that's insane, the fact that Elon Musk is attached to this company, when you compare it, when you compare the valuations with the fundamentals, but then you add in the Elon Musk factor, it makes it make a little bit more sense.
- [07:27]
Max Chafkin
It's funny because like what you're saying sounds like kind of a made up thing, but when you talk to like people who analyze, like analysts, they kind of put in these terms, they're like, well, you've got the rocket, you got the rocket part of the business. That's pretty good. You've got Starlink, which is growing, but who knows how fast it's going to grow. You got the AI thing which doesn't really exist yet. I mean, there's a plan to build data centers in space. There's Grok, which is, is a kind of second tier large language model. It's sort of noteworthy because it, it's more risque than OpenAI or Claude. It's the one you want to have sex with, I guess if you have to, you got to choose one. But then there's Elon Musk. And that is the thing that takes this company, which is really, it's like a smallish tech company, at least by the scale of these mega caps. $18 billion in revenue, I think Meta had something like $200 billion in revenue, lost over $4 billion last year. The loss. And you take those kind of little pieces that I mentioned and you swirl in the Elon Musk premium that you're talking about and all of a sudden you've got a company that's $1.8 trillion.
- [08:30]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Can I ask a question that's gonna sound snarky, but I actually don't mean it to sound snarky, which is why is there an Elon Musk premium? He feels like you could look at him as potentially a little bit of a liability.
- [08:42]
Katie Greifeld
I mean, to his credit, he helped pioneer the category of electric vehicles in the U.S. i mean Tesla's, if you take a drive, they're ubiquitous. You see them everywhere. SpaceX also, to Elon Musk's credit, I mean this is a company that's been around for decades. It's not like your classic startup. I think Anthropic is something close to like 5 years old. But Tesla, or rather SpaceX is a mature company at this point and they've, you know, successfully delivered on a lot of their targets. And you know, you think about the SpaceX IPO, 30% is going to be allocated to retail investors. Retail investors who love Elon Musk. Presumably that's why they're buying it. I think you can't discount the fact that he is a sales, a salesman here.
- [09:32]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Well, that brings me to another question that I had about this moment. So this is like probably one of the most action packed months the markets have ever had like in their history.
- [09:41]
Katie Greifeld
I'm tired.
- [09:43]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Yes, but why are the Markets falling.
- [09:46]
Katie Greifeld
Well, I hope I don't look too ghoulish, but again, I cover markets second to second and for two hours a day, you know, lean into the. Well, I'm so interested to see if this current slump, and it really started, you know, in the wake of Broadcom earnings last week. You know, this whole AI complex and the chip makers in particular.
- [10:06]
Max Chafkin
Broadcom being a massive chip maker.
- [10:08]
Katie Greifeld
Yes, exactly. The chip makers have really been in the hurt locker and leading this.
- [10:11]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Did they have bad earnings?
- [10:13]
Katie Greifeld
They gave a disappointing forecast. And again, when we're talking about hopes and dreams and like the vision for the future and the idea that, you know, this AI reality that we're going to enter into is going to translate into real profits for these companies, if your forecast doesn't align with that vision, obviously investors get nervous. So it creates a really interesting stage on which SpaceX is going to go public in a few days time. So we'll, we'll see. You know, I mean, there's so many unknowns here, but I will say that sentiment is definitely a little skittish at this moment, especially around the AI trade. And it's going to be interesting to see how SpaceX lands in the midst of that.
- [10:54]
Max Chafkin
A major thing that lots of people are talking about, your co host Matt Levine has been writing about this in his newsletter, is this question of the index funds. So quick primer, I guess, for people who don't know what we're talking about, but most investors invest in these passive index funds. You buy a big chunk of the market, the S&P 500, the NASDAQ 100, the Russell 2000, whatever. And Elon Musk and SpaceX have been campaigning essentially behind the scenes to get these index funds to add SpaceX into their indices as quickly as possible and in most cases have succeeded. The S and P has basically said no, but the other index indices all said, yeah, sure, bring it on. And there's this sense and this has showed up in columns in the Times and I've certainly heard this from people that, you know, Musk is sort of forcing people into this investment at a time when the valuation is very high. Like you may not buy SpaceX, but if you own a Nasdaq 100 mutual fund or ETF, you do own it. And you're essentially maybe becoming like a bag holder or something for Elon Musk. Now I'm kind of curious what you make of that conversation.
- [12:05]
Katie Greifeld
I mean, I love it. Not to be a ghoul, but again, like just the fact that, you know, the broader public is having these discussions about index methodology and passive investments.
- [12:17]
Max Chafkin
I'm like, hell, yeah, come on in, the water's warm.
- [12:19]
Katie Greifeld
This is what we get up in the morning for. SpaceX alone isn't probably going to take down your index fund, but if it trades as a block, the Magnificent Seven, for a long time sort of traded as a group, it'll have an impact. But it is interesting to watch certain indexes bend around SpaceX and then the S and P, which has pretty strict methodology, stand by that methodology. You can see the argument on either end. For an index provider, you want to be representative of the market. We've never had an IPO of this size. And to leave SpaceX out, you know, it's easy to make the argument you're not representing the, the slice of the market or whatever your index is trying to do. Whereas S and P on the other side, you know, has a pretty easy argument that, you know, we have these rules for a reason and we're sticking by them.
- [13:09]
Max Chafkin
Yeah, I mean, Musk just has so much leverage, like in so many different ways. And I think part of what was going on, Katie kind of hinted at it, is that, you know, there's a fear that if you don't add SpaceX to the index, then you're doing a disservice what happens when those data centers go to space and, you know, all of the crazy predictions in this IPO document pan out and like, then the, the, the 401k people or whatever have missed out. That's the kind of risk of, of not including. But also these, these, some of these companies were competing for the SpaceX listing. Nasdaq is going to list SpaceX. So they're, so you do sort of wonder. I think they've denied that there was any kind of conflict of interest. This is just for the good of the investors. But it, but there have been those questions raised. I'm wondering, we're about to have a few extra trillion dollars go into the stock market. You're talking about a lot of retail money. You're talking about a very volatile sector. Is there any risk in your mind that if this IPO goes bad, if it doesn't, you know, if it pops and then crashes or if it crashes or whatever, we don't know what's going to happen, that it could bring down the entire AI trade? Or do you think the Elon, like the sort of singularity of Elon Musk will mean that this sort of just operates on its own kind of island?
- [14:25]
Katie Greifeld
Well, I think it is going to be extremely important for sentiment. And certainly you've seen a lot of pessimists argue that like we're watching the top form in real time. Like you can see the bubble right here and here comes the pinprick. We have to see how it goes. Obviously. I do think if it goes poorly, it'll be interesting to see what it means for the pipeline of companies who are perhaps considering their own IPOs. I think that might be the more important ripple effect because if SpaceX gets a strange or a rocky reception from the public markets, you know, one of the most anticipated IPOs of all time, if not all time. If you're a regular company hanging out in the pipeline waiting to see if you want to jump in the pool, that could absolutely have a chilling effect.
- [15:12]
Stacey Bannik Smith
This is going to be a very interesting. We will all be watching ghoulishly, I guess.
- [15:16]
Max Chafkin
Yeah. Thank you for bringing Katie Greifeld, the ghoulish perspective to everybody's business. Check out Money Stuff the podcast. Check out the clothes on Bloomberg tv. Subscribe to ETF IQ Katie, thank you for being here.
- [15:27]
Katie Greifeld
Thank you for having me.
- [15:35]
Randall Williams
Modern Enterprise that's a lot of moving parts. Comcast Business helps you orchestrate it all with SD WAN working at scale to keep 150 hospital locations connected and working as one plus SASE and zero trust security, protecting financial data across a bank's 2000 branches and AI powered networking that optimizes traffic across five continents. No one does business like Comcast Business,
- [16:04]
IBM Representative
so there's a lot of noise about AI. But time's too tight for more promises, so let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions, not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.
- [16:33]
Fidelity Representative
IBM Is it just me or is it getting really hard to figure out the best way to save for retirement? Well, Fidelity can help you to find clarity so you can save the best way for you. With a free personalized plan, goal tracking and timely insights, you'll be set to take on retirement your way. Get started@fidelity.com future expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account. Apply Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSE SIPC
- [17:03]
Max Chafkin
Stacy the world of sports is on fire right now The NBA Finals, as we mentioned, in full swing as we record. The Knicks are ahead of the spurs in the series, three games to one. The final game of the series. I have been told with so much authority by everyone I know in New York City is going to be on Saturday night, and that is before or, or, or as the World cup starts. The World cup will kick off today. Mexico versus South Africa. It is sports madness here. It's a sight to see.
- [17:30]
Stacey Bannik Smith
I know the whole city seems kind of consumed with sports fever of all kinds. I feel like it's on the subway and it's on the streets. And I was in Idaho last week and everybody was asking me about the Knicks.
- [17:42]
Max Chafkin
We were talking about this before we had to bring on Randall Williams, Bloomberg sports reporter, who is here with us. Randall, welcome.
- [17:49]
Randall Williams
Thank you all for having me. And I also want these. These listeners to know that both of you all are wearing Knicks shirts today. Did you all say that?
- [17:57]
Stacey Bannik Smith
We did. I feel like mine is a bit unearned, but I am wearing it with.
- [18:02]
Max Chafkin
Is it like a. A journalistic. Are we committing some sort of journalist?
- [18:06]
Randall Williams
No, because you all don't cover sports. But if you attend a sports game and you are wearing team apparel, that's lowkey. A cardinal sin.
- [18:12]
Stacey Bannik Smith
So, Randall, your hat has both teams?
- [18:15]
Max Chafkin
Yeah, it's. Oh, it has both teams, Randall.
- [18:19]
Randall Williams
Teams. And it has an NBA Finals on the front. And it has the Larry o' Brien trophy on the other side. No bias.
- [18:24]
Max Chafkin
Okay.
- [18:24]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Okay. Okay. I appreciate this very much. It's very professional.
- [18:28]
Max Chafkin
Before we begin, Randall, we have to play you some tape from some fans. We sent producers Jasmine J.T. green and Miles J. Herzenhorn to a local sports bar in midtown Manhattan, right around the corner from Madison Square Garden where the game was taking place, to get a pulse of the Game three action. So can you guys tell us how much you spent on Nick's merchandise, food, drinks and other things during this Finals run?
- [18:52]
Stacey Bannik Smith
So far?
- [18:52]
Randall Williams
At least 100 bucks. 150 bucks?
- [18:55]
Max Chafkin
Yeah. Probably like 500.
- [18:57]
Fidelity Representative
Yeah, probably like three grand.
- [19:00]
Randall Williams
Wow.
- [19:00]
Max Chafkin
I've been to a couple games. Been to.
- [19:02]
Fidelity Representative
Got some. I have a jersey on. I got a lot of jerseys.
- [19:05]
Randall Williams
Gas is crazy.
- [19:07]
Max Chafkin
Where do you drive from? Coney Island. And then you have to pay for parking. Manhattan. Yeah. So you went to San Antonio, you flew there, bought a ticket? I did. How much did that cost you in total? If you had to guess?
- [19:18]
Fidelity Representative
Probably like, like a thousand bucks.
- [19:20]
Max Chafkin
Ticket and flight.
- [19:21]
Randall Williams
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:22]
Max Chafkin
Wow, that's not a bad deal.
- [19:23]
Randall Williams
Yeah, I'm good.
- [19:24]
Fidelity Representative
Credit card points.
- [19:25]
Max Chafkin
So that helps.
- [19:26]
Stacey Bannik Smith
I just got another hat and it
- [19:27]
Max Chafkin
was like maybe around 30 bucks.
- [19:30]
Katie Greifeld
Probably upcharged because of how good the
- [19:32]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Knicks are doing, but 100 worth it.
- [19:36]
Fidelity Representative
I'd sell my house to watch Jalen Bronson.
- [19:39]
Max Chafkin
I'm definitely drinking more and going to more bars than I normally would. It'd be good for your wallet and your lever if Nick's winning five. It'd be good for my heart. It'd be good for my cortisol levels. If the Knicks win in five. What do you think about the price of tickets for the actual game?
- [19:56]
Randall Williams
I think it's kind of insane.
- [19:57]
Max Chafkin
The fans more recently are probably the
- [19:59]
Randall Williams
ones going to the game and willing
- [20:01]
Max Chafkin
to spend that amount of money. But the die hard fans can't afford to go to that. I think it's kind of unfair. What are you looking forward to at the watch party? Looking forward to spending more money.
- [20:13]
Randall Williams
I'm just looking forward.
- [20:13]
Stacey Bannik Smith
And winning.
- [20:14]
Randall Williams
Knicks in five.
- [20:15]
Max Chafkin
We're gonna bet crazy on when the Knicks are down. Cause I'm gonna make that big bread when Knicks win that chip. That's it. Od.
- [20:22]
Fidelity Representative
Od.
- [20:23]
Max Chafkin
Od.
- [20:23]
Stacey Bannik Smith
The house thing. I can't get over the guy who says he would sell his house.
- [20:28]
Randall Williams
It doesn't surprise me. Knicks fans are rabid.
- [20:31]
Stacey Bannik Smith
You were there. You were at this game that you have to, I mean you were like quoting celebrities in the top of your article. So tell us, just, just tell us everything. What was it like being there? What was the feeling in the stadium?
- [20:44]
Randall Williams
So you brought up Celebrities Game 3. I was sitting in a press conference and I just panned to my right and Ben Stiller is right there from me to Max, which is, I don't know, a yard in, in length. And he's recording on his phone and he's then on game four, he's like, hey, I saw you recording me. Can I have that video? And so I airdropped a video.
- [21:06]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Wait, so you just like have Ben Stiller's information now?
- [21:08]
Randall Williams
I don't he. We did the everyone for 10 minutes and on the airdrop option and. But it's things like that that happen all the time. Of course Taylor Swift was at game four. Of course Fat Joe. Spike Lee. Of course Timothy Shamalay. Like so many celebrities. Kylie Jenner. So many celebrities are there.
- [21:27]
Max Chafkin
David Zaslav.
- [21:28]
Randall Williams
Yes, him too. Larry David. And we can't forget, we can't forget the biggest celebrity of them all.
- [21:34]
Max Chafkin
Mike King Bloomberg. Yeah, that's right.
- [21:37]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Was he there?
- [21:38]
Randall Williams
He was there for both. He took a shot in game three. But he came back, pulled up for game four, sat steady in the seat. No, nobody ran into him.
- [21:46]
Max Chafkin
And guess, full disclosure, Mike Bloomberg owns the company that makes this podcast.
- [21:51]
Randall Williams
Exactly. At one point when it was halftime and I think they were down 27, I was having a conversation with another journalist and I was like, thank God we'll be back here for game six. Because that is what I was rooting for. Like, people ask my bias. I root for a good story and the best stories are often in six or seven games. But if the Knicks are going to win in five, this is how it should be done. Like, a 29 point comeback is miraculous.
- [22:13]
Max Chafkin
Greatest comeback in the history of the NBA Finals.
- [22:15]
Randall Williams
It is.
- [22:16]
Max Chafkin
Okay, so we talked, Randall, I don't know what it was like a month and a half ago, two months ago, about baseball and, and, and the sort of question of like, which was the second most popular sport in America. And in, in that conversation, we got into some of the issues that, that basketball's been having.
- [22:32]
Randall Williams
I love this conversation.
- [22:33]
Max Chafkin
You know, remember we talked about, you know, the NBA Finals ratings last year were pretty bad. And I think you said something like. Or part of what you brought up was the fact that we had two sort of small market teams. No disrespect to the great cities of Indianapolis and Oklahoma City, but they are not as big as New York and San Antonio. How different has this been from last year? What are the TV ratings like? What is the sort of business around the NBA Finals this year?
- [23:00]
Randall Williams
So I can tell you just, I've been to three of the four games and the energy around this year's Finals is tenfold higher than it was last year. And it has nothing to do really with the teams themselves. It's just the aura around the game. And the Knicks haven't been back there in the history. They haven't been back to the final since 1999. And that history matters. It matters a lot in terms of storytelling. Now you look at the other side. The San Antonio spurs have Victor Wembanyama, who is the tallest person I have ever met in my life, by far,
- [23:30]
Max Chafkin
arguably the greatest basketball player and like
- [23:33]
Stacey Bannik Smith
sketch artist and in a book club.
- [23:35]
Randall Williams
Yes, he is, I would say, Victor Wembanyama. They call him the alien. I would also call him the philosopher.
- [23:40]
Stacey Bannik Smith
I feel like he's like a Renaissance man.
- [23:42]
Randall Williams
Wemby is just insane. He has the opposite effect of Steph Curry. Where Steph Curry is like, you see yourself in him in some aspect because he is your height. He wears probably a similar shoe size as You Wemby's the opposite. He's the tallest person you've ever met and yet he does things that nobody that tall has ever done. So you combine the biggest media market with a Knicks winning streak unlike any in NBA history against a 7 foot 4 giant, and now you have the makings for a heavyweight fight.
- [24:13]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Let's talk a little bit about the money here. So like ticket prices, they're high, but they, they're very dynamic all the time. So talk about that a little bit.
- [24:21]
Randall Williams
So this is at one point in time was the second most expensive or third most expensive sporting event ever behind
- [24:28]
Max Chafkin
Super Bowl 58 based on secondary market ticket price?
- [24:32]
Randall Williams
I believe so. Yeah, I believe so. I believe that Super Bowl 58 or 57, the one that was in Las Vegas between the Chiefs and the 49ers, was the most expensive sporting event of all time on the secondary market. I believe that ticket was selling for $10,000. When the Knicks won Game 2, the prices just skyrocketed. And so. Yes, absolutely. Are regular degular Knicks fans priced out of this? Yes, they are. Is it fair? I would argue potentially, because sports are a luxury experience now. The best thing that a Knicks fan that makes an average salary of whatever you want to define an average salary as is to go watch them in Philly, you're not going to be able to get in or go watch them potentially in, in Barclays, you're not going to be able to just pay for a Knicks ticket because these prices are outrageous. And it isn't just NB related, it's all sports.
- [25:21]
Max Chafkin
So th. This, this conversation is a. Is a good segue to, to the World cup because that is another thing. And we've been talking about it on this show, about the ticket prices, about the hotel bookings. There have been all these signs this, this thing that we're seeing with the NBA Finals where everything is clicking. You have a, a perfect matchup a, a budding star versus like a complete and, and lovable team. You've got the New York media market, you've got all this merch, you've got bars, you've got parties on the streets. That's kind of what the world a grander scale. We have seen some signs over the last couple of months that things may not be going that way. Tickets not selling as well. Although I have to say, Randall, as we're getting closer, I'm starting to catch that fever, that World cup fever.
- [26:05]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Starting to.
- [26:06]
Randall Williams
You were in a Jersey cup fever.
- [26:08]
Max Chafkin
Talk about the kind of controversy and the. And The. And the sort of sense that this thing might not, you know, pan out the way FIFA hopes.
- [26:15]
Randall Williams
You go back months when FIFA awarded President Trump a peace prize, something that didn't exist. Forgot about that before President Trump's arrival into office. Then you talk about ticket prices, you talk about infrastructure. You talk about, you know, New Jersey at one point in time, charging 150 round trip to get to MetLife.
- [26:33]
Max Chafkin
That's now sitting down to a very reasonable $98 just to get to this,
- [26:37]
Stacey Bannik Smith
the stadium, you have to pay the train.
- [26:39]
Max Chafkin
That normally costs like 10 bucks or whatever.
- [26:41]
Randall Williams
Bloomberg will be paying that on my behalf.
- [26:43]
Max Chafkin
Or.
- [26:43]
Randall Williams
Or the other option is a 250uber out there.
- [26:46]
Stacey Bannik Smith
You have a very cool job, Randall.
- [26:48]
Randall Williams
Yes, but I'm also a company man, and I'm in the business of not spending.
- [26:52]
Max Chafkin
You could put on a wetsuit and swim, which would be less expensive.
- [26:55]
Randall Williams
I never thought of that. Never thought of that.
- [26:58]
Stacey Bannik Smith
No scene.
- [26:59]
Randall Williams
I considered. I considered at one point in time, I was thinking I would take a city bike, but then I remembered that MetLife is in a swamp. But going back to the problems that are happening around the World cup, there's been a lot of conversation about ticket prices because I do think that FIFA has handled it the way that they've handled it. And the prices that they've set. The floor is just ridiculously high.
- [27:20]
Stacey Bannik Smith
They set the prices.
- [27:21]
Randall Williams
FIFA has set the prices. The floor has been ridiculously high for a sport that Americans. The culture's just not there yet. Now, of course, we have big money investors, but are those big money investors going to be going to see, you know, a South Africa play in Seattle? And I don't know that South Africa plays in Seattle. That's just an example and hypothetical. I don't know that that's true. Now, France, sp, the us, all of these bigger countries, of course they will fill up the arenas, but it's not really about them. The World cup has always been thought of as a sport that's brought people together because of its access, because you can just go to a match. That is absolutely not the case. If I was not a sports journalist, I would not be going to the World cup because it is expensive. Not just the ticket to go to the game. The parking is more expensive than the round trip that I would take to get to MetLife. That's absurd.
- [28:13]
Max Chafkin
There's an aspect of a money grab here. You're hinting at it, but the prices. But also, they expanded this tournament. They made it 48 teams instead of 32. So you have A lot of games that are not going to be especially meaningful at the, at the early point of the tournament. And then you also have this, the, the, the kind of negotiations with cities where the, the FIFA, the, the nonprofit in scare quotes that, because they make a ton of money, but the nonprofit that, that kind of runs a World cup has demanded huge concessions from all the cities. Now, I, I want to just zero in on one thing you brought up though, which is like the popularity of soccer in the United States, because on one hand, I think you're right. Like it hasn't taken off the way that some people hoped. On the other hand, earlier this week, Argentina and Iceland played a meaningless game in Auburn, Alabama, and filled that stadium up. 90,000 people in a college football stadium, Alabama. And there are scenes like this all over the United States. There is, there are a lot of American soccer fans. They're just sort of not cohering maybe in the way that some of the people who run soccer in the US Thought.
- [29:24]
Randall Williams
As far as soccer culture or European football culture in the US it does exist in pockets, but it depends. You brought up Argentina and Iceland, but
- [29:33]
Max Chafkin
Alabama, not exactly a hotbed of soccer. That's true fandom. You know, that's true.
- [29:38]
Randall Williams
But I think that's that Alabama is also a star of sports market. Like, they don't really have. Auburn and Alabama are their professional team. So you bring a national team that has a reputation in Argentina, the defending champions there, and I think that that will sell. And I think, you know, you take things farther than that in terms of what it means for soccer in the U.S. can you all name me five players on the U.S. national team?
- [30:02]
Max Chafkin
I can, but absolutely not so.
- [30:04]
Randall Williams
But I bet you could probably name three players who played in the super bowl or five players who played in the Super Bowl.
- [30:09]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Yes.
- [30:11]
Randall Williams
And granted the MLS has not been around as long as the NFL, NBA, mlb. It's not built into American culture the same way as the, the other sports are. But this is an opportunity to do
- [30:22]
Max Chafkin
that, just to spin this forward. So you brought up the, the like lack of popularity of mls.
- [30:28]
Randall Williams
Sure.
- [30:29]
Max Chafkin
There are other leagues in this country that are very popular. And like, if the World cup is successful, what does that look like? And, and, and how might that impact the business of soccer going forward?
- [30:40]
Randall Williams
I think that in order for soccer to be dramatically impacted in the U.S. number one, Team USA has to get to the round of 16. I'm not saying that. That's what everyone has told me. Everyone said Team USA success is instrumental because kids need to see Americans at least get to the knockout stage. That's what everyone has been told to me. When I was at a Fox sporting event, everyone said they need to get to the round of 16. That is where the lights will shine bright.
- [31:06]
Max Chafkin
I am bullish. I think I was feeling very.
- [31:09]
Randall Williams
We haven't brought up something important, though. What we haven't brought up the political angle of this, which is that President Trump at any point in time, as we saw with game three, can press a button and decide that I'm going to go to a game. And he could decide whatever country that he may not like on that given day, let's just bring in ice. And we don't know what that looks like. What is federal enforcement and what is security going to look like at these games? One of the bigger conversations overseas is are people going to be safe here? What is it is is are they going to be able to get in and out of the stadium and back to their hotel without somebody checking to see if they have the proper identification? That accessibility has has not existed the same way. The level of tension that exists here in America didn't exist in the previous
- [32:01]
Max Chafkin
World Cups in authoritarian countries. There have been so. No, the last one was in Qatar.
- [32:05]
Randall Williams
The one before that was in that controversy as well. But I think President Trump has a louder voice.
- [32:11]
Max Chafkin
Absolutely.
- [32:12]
Randall Williams
And he will go to a game, I'm absolutely sure. But what does he say?
- [32:17]
Max Chafkin
All right, we'll be watching. Randall, we'll have to have you back as this tournament's going to go on for like a month. So we will be able to reassess
- [32:23]
Randall Williams
before too long here all week, all month, up until July 19 when the final is.
- [32:28]
Max Chafkin
Thanks for joining us.
- [32:29]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Thanks, Randall.
- [32:36]
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- [34:05]
Max Chafkin
Okay, Stacey, it's time for underrated stories and I've got a good one for you. This is, this is a juicy, maybe even thought provoking, debate worthy piece. Oh, this was a paper that was published by an economist at Middlebury College.
- [34:21]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Is it a white paper?
- [34:23]
Max Chafkin
It's about a white paper.
- [34:24]
Stacey Bannik Smith
I'm very excited.
- [34:26]
Max Chafkin
But it's about, I feel like we're
- [34:27]
Stacey Bannik Smith
growing as a show.
- [34:28]
Max Chafkin
The National Bureau of Economic Research. That's the, that's what published this, this paper by Caitlin Myers and Ezekiel Hooper. And this is a study suggesting that an underrated form of birth control is your iPhone, not your smartphone, literally the iPhone.
- [34:47]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Explain. Explain this because it's very. This has been causing quite a stir online.
- [34:51]
Max Chafkin
So, so Dr. Myers and, and, and Mr. Hopper, who's I believe her student looked at, and this is a really smart study that they did, looking at the fact, you remember when the iPhone came out and it was only 2008.
- [35:05]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Right.
- [35:05]
Max Chafkin
Only available if you had AT&T. So they looked at, they used that fact that, that some areas have better AT&T coverage than others as sort of a proxy for whether or not people had the iPhone. And then they tried to control for other things like income, education, other things that might lead to a drop in pregnancy. And they found that overall iPhone use correlated with lower birth rates.
- [35:33]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Wow.
- [35:33]
Max Chafkin
Especially most among young people. The biggest drop, I believe was like from 14 or 15 to 24. So teenagers and young adults, but across the board. And this comes after another study that also that showed a similar thing. There are a lot of people in the social sciences who are really excited about this work. You know, I think there's a lot of like sort of cultural zeitgeist around this where it's like, oh, maybe people are texting or something too much. And that's causing them to like, not make friends. That's a possibility, but it's really not the only possibility here could be people getting more information about, about, you know, birth control and things like that.
- [36:12]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Right, like, yeah, or like, where's the nearest CVS or something.
- [36:15]
Max Chafkin
Exactly. Or, or watching too much pornography or whatever. So there are like a lot of options, but it's, it's super interesting. And, and the implication. Now I'm gonna say this is a soft implication, this is not parenting advice, but that, you know, you might wanna give your teenagers smartphones instead of sex education.
- [36:32]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Instead of the talk, you're just like, son, we need to talk. Here's your iPhone and unlimited minutes.
- [36:38]
Max Chafkin
I realize this cuts against other stories we've talked about on this podcast, but I found it really interesting. The Times wrote a good write up at this piece that's worth checking out.
- [36:48]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Well, this is really like the whole economic community has really been talking about this. I noticed this online. It's very interesting because it's not typically the type of study that gets a lot of economic attention, but people have been saying no, this is because of the economic downturn that happened in 2000
- [37:08]
Max Chafkin
almost at the exact same time that
- [37:09]
Stacey Bannik Smith
the iPhone came out.
- [37:10]
Max Chafkin
Which I got to say that is pretty persuasive. The. I will say that the authors of this study did try to control for economic effects. They also don't contend that it is the entire. It's responsible for the entire drop. It's just a factor. I think the paper is. Is careful. But I agree with you, Stacey. Like, it seems like maybe more research is required before we, you know, cancel sex education and just start handing out iPhones.
- [37:36]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Like, there's just a lot of like, interpersonal relationships that are uncomfortable and awkward, especially in the romantic way. And if you can like substitute that for something that has no awkwardness, no barrier to entry. This is why I think maybe AI is going to be a big problem.
- [37:54]
Max Chafkin
Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. I think, I think AI and I've even heard this.
- [37:59]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Humans are difficult and the Internet is not.
- [38:02]
Max Chafkin
All right, I know you have a really good underrated story that I'm delighted
- [38:06]
Stacey Bannik Smith
to hear about mine I discovered on my smartphone, so brace yourself. This also, I think could be an effective form of birth control. Which is. Okay. You know how when movies launch, especially summer movies, it's all about the merch, right? It's like Marvel movies or the Star wars movies and Lunchbox Burger King and stuff like that. Well, the biggest hit of this summer so far is this movie called Backrooms, Right.
- [38:32]
Max Chafkin
Yeah, we talked about it last week.
- [38:34]
Katie Greifeld
Yes.
- [38:34]
Max Chafkin
Kind of a creepy horror movie type thing.
- [38:36]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Totally. And it's set in this kind of liminal space of an abandoned office, you know, that sort of infinitely goes on forever. Creepy. Well, how do you make merch out of the backrooms?
- [38:48]
Max Chafkin
I mean, I was thinking maybe it leads to a resurgence of like airport waiting room type places. Are people going to escape DMVs now with more enthusiasm?
- [39:01]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Field trips to DMs? I think there's. I think there's something to that. Well, right now there is something called the backrooms fragrance that has been dropped by this company called Unjust X Romance Planet X. It has this. This fragrance and it is $44.
- [39:22]
Max Chafkin
Now, is it a. Is this a unisex fragrance? Is this for men or women sex?
- [39:26]
Katie Greifeld
Yes.
- [39:26]
Max Chafkin
Okay. And is it. Did the backrooms people, like, participate in this or is this just kind of like a parody fragrance?
- [39:33]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Excellent question. Unclear.
- [39:35]
Max Chafkin
What does it smell like?
- [39:36]
Stacey Bannik Smith
Okay, here are the notes. Musty, woody and atmospheric, liminal in a bottle top. Notes. Old wallpaper, wet carpet, mahogany. And dust. Dust the heart and base. Apparently these are perfume terms. Dark, musk, cedar, leather, a hazy ozonic spaciousness. And ceiling tile.
- [39:56]
Max Chafkin
Can I just say, I know that's not supposed to smell good, but you're feeling it. It kind of sounds.
- [40:03]
Stacey Bannik Smith
You're feeling backroom.
- [40:05]
Max Chafkin
And I have not seen the movie, so maybe, you know, once I see the ghosts that appear or whatever happens, I actually have no idea what happens. But, you know, maybe that would change my feelings about the scent. But right now, I don't know. I'm open to it.
- [40:18]
Stacey Bannik Smith
What is it that's drawing you in?
- [40:20]
Max Chafkin
Well, a bunch of those smells. Sound okay? Mahogany, cedar. Was leather in there. Even ozonic openness. I don't quite know what that means,
- [40:30]
Stacey Bannik Smith
but hazy ozonic spaciousness kind of.
- [40:34]
Max Chafkin
I live in a hazy place, a hazy ozonic space, and I don't hate it. So all of those things sound somewhat appealing. This show is produced by Jasmine JT Green, Stacy Wong and Miles J. Herzenhorn. Magnus Henriksen is our supervising producer. Sam Rogich handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Special thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin and Maria Ling. If you have a minute, please rate and review our show. It'll mean a lot to us. And if you have a story that should be our brain business, email us@everybody's bloomberg.net that's everybody with an slumber.net thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats
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Randall Williams
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Max Chafkin
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Randall Williams
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Max Chafkin
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Randall Williams
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Max Chafkin
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- [42:24]
Max Chafkin
M& Ms. Popped Caramel do sound different.
- [42:27]
Randall Williams
Oh no.
- [42:28]
Max Chafkin
People are gonna be obsessed. What do you mean?
- [42:31]
Randall Williams
People hate the sound of chewing.
- [42:33]
Max Chafkin
Maybe they won't like the crunch. Maybe we're saved. Wait a minute. Yellow. Have you been eating them this whole time?
- [42:44]
Randall Williams
Mmm. So tasty. Hands off us.
- [42:48]
Max Chafkin
M&M's popped caramel. It's more fun together.