Meet Polymarket’s $400 Million Man

Summary

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Everybody's Business

Episode: "Meet Polymarket’s $400 Million Man"

Original Air Date: October 17, 2025

Hosts: Max Chafkin & Brad Stone (in for Stacey Vanek Smith)
Notable Guests: Amanda Mull (Bloomberg Businessweek), "Domer" (Top Polymarket Trader)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Everybody’s Business dives into prediction markets and the personalities fueling their rapid growth—specifically focusing on Domer, the top trader on Polymarket who has wagered over $400 million. Alongside this in-depth interview, the show explores the surging “credit card wars” among America’s elite, and ends with conversation on OpenAI’s newly salacious chatbot features. The episode’s tone is sharp, curious, sometimes incredulous, and always lively.

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Key Segments & Themes

1. Dreamforce, San Francisco & the Benioff Backlash

[01:15–07:58]

• Main Discussion:
  Hosts chat with Amanda Mull about the annual Salesforce Dreamforce conference in San Francisco, noting the event’s irony as "the big event" in a city once known for counterculture.

• Marc Benioff Controversy:
  Intense focus on Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff’s apparent political shift; once a liberal icon, Benioff recently suggested welcoming federal troops into San Francisco to address safety concerns during Dreamforce, a move widely panned and now being walked back.

  • "He has done a complete 180 since Trump's election." – Stacey Vanek Smith [03:12]

• Local Perspective:
  Bloomberg’s Yana Knoedler interviews attendees on the ground. General consensus: excitement for the event, some concerns about city safety, and confusion or ambivalence about Benioff's comments.

• Satirical Edge:

  • "I think you, you said this earlier, but I mean, there would be a naked bike protest for sure if, if the National Guard comes in and a naked bike protest that would dwarf Portland, Oregon's naked bikes." – Stacey Vanek Smith [07:14]

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2. The Credit Card Wars: America's Rich and the Battle for Wallets

[08:05–20:41]

• Report Summary:
  Amanda Mull discusses her latest Businessweek piece on “points maxing” and the escalating competition among high-end credit cards (Amex Platinum, Chase Sapphire Reserve, Capital One Venture X, and others).

• Key Insights:

  • Interchange Fees:
    Credit card profits are increasingly driven not by interest on balances, but by merchant-paid “interchange fees,” which are highest for premium cards and almost unavoidable for merchants targeting wealthy consumers.

    • "If stores want to sell things to those customers and they very much do, they just sort of have to eat it.” – Amanda Mull [11:43]

  • Experiential Perks:
    Card companies now sponsor luxury experiences (US Open suites, fancy airport lounges, premium events) to attract top spenders, broadening well beyond travel perks into sports, dining, wellness, exclusive shopping.

  • “Prestige and Plunk Factor":
    Metal credit cards foster both a real and perceived sense of status.

    • "Within the industry, they call it plunk factor.” – Amanda Mull [15:46]

  • Economic Implication – The K-Shaped Economy:
    The premiumization of cards reflects an economy where the top 10% of households now drive over 50% of consumer spending.

    • "Brands...are looking at their sales data, looking at the economic data and going, there's not all that many people spending money..." – Amanda Mull [18:25]

• Memorable Moment:
  Amanda reveals she carries an Amex Delta Reserve—not the "standard" Amex Platinum—because the Delta perks are better for her as an Atlanta native, highlighting how intricate and targeted these offers have become.

  • "It's purple. It's a lovely shade of purple." – Amanda Mull [19:47]

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3. Polymarket's $400 Million Man: The Rise of Domer

[21:20–38:05]

[Detailed Interview: 22:52–37:55]

• Background on Domer (“just waking up” on Polymarket):
  The hosts introduce Domer as possibly the most prolific (and successful) prediction market bettor on Polymarket. His bets total over $400 million—a mix of high volume and high skill.

• Domer's Origin Story:

  • Began as a professional online poker player before shifting to prediction markets in the late 2000s, drawn to areas like the Oscars and politics.
  • "I started to make more money doing poker than I was at my job...And then I found where you could bet on stuff like the Oscars." – Domer [23:46]

• Day-to-Day for a Prediction Trader:

  • Obsessive news monitoring; “sleep is the enemy" since any breaking story could swing a market.
  • "The first thing I do when I get up is I look at my phone. Do I have alerts what has happened overnight?...in prediction markets, kind of sleep is the enemy." – Domer [24:48]

• Why Prediction Markets, Not Stocks?:

  • Higher potential payouts due to binary (0 to 100) outcomes and clearer “truth arbiter," less luck than poker, and a more direct link between information and outcome.
  • "What kind of drew me to prediction markets was like, you can be right about something and you would be paid off. You can do the research, you can find the answer, and it's like, there's not that much luck involved..." – Domer [26:12]
  • On market mechanics: "That's a 20 to 1 payoff. That's gigantic." – Domer [29:39]

• Breadth and Scale:
  Approximately 1,000 open bets, with some (like Taylor Swift's album sales) carrying personal risks upwards of $600,000–$1 million.

  • "Maybe closing in on a million. Yeah." – Domer [28:35]

• How Bets Resolve (Taylor Swift example):

  • After the interview, Domer shares the result: he bet on two related, but distinct, markets about Swift album sales—one including streaming, one not. Both bets hit by slim margins, netting him ~$80,000.
    • "A miracle literally happened...I won both bets because the one went to above 4 million 4.005. And then the second one was like 3.487 or something." – Domer [36:44]
    • "I ended up making around $80,000." – Domer [37:52]

• On Market Integrity & Insider Risk:

  • Acknowledges “insider trading” risk in small markets but claims to adjust his risk accordingly.
    • “If I have assessed that a market could be insider traded, like, I'll probably put a lot less liquidity on that. So, I mean, you can kind of figure it out, but obviously it is an issue.” – Domer [34:21]

• The Mainstreaming of Prediction Markets:

  • Movement from fringe to Wall Street attention, driven by desire to bet directly on events (e.g., recessions) and a culture increasingly comfortable with probabilistic thinking (“Nate Silver was a nobody in 2008...now it’s such a big focus.”) – Domer [31:57]

• Hosts’ Concerns:

  • Brad Stone and Stacey Vanek Smith warn: "Normal people just screwing around on the Internet are not necessarily as attuned to the risks...if you’re going to try to bet in the mayor’s race, not only might you be betting against Eric Adams himself, but you could also just be betting in some very sophisticated traders who are better at this than Domer." — Stacey Vanek Smith [35:45–36:07]

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4. Underrated: OpenAI’s “Perv Mode” & AI Companionship

[39:24–43:43]

• Sam Altman’s Announcement:
  OpenAI will soon support “mature content” in its chatbots thanks to age verification—enabling ChatGPT to engage in “after hours” conversations.

• Hosts’ Reaction:

  • Both humorous and skeptical.
    • Chafkin: “If you have a great business, you want to charge big companies lots of money...YouTube didn’t have adult content. Facebook didn’t have adult content...So the fact that ChatGPT is doing this feels like a bearish signal for, for the company.” [41:49]
    • Mull: “He says that they've solved mental health, first of all, which is what a, you know, what an advance for society.” [41:59]

• Concerns Raised:

  • Ethical worries about vulnerable users, blurred boundaries between AI and real-life relationships, temptation for the AI companies to chase user growth via titillation, and the “sweaty” feeling (“cooking your brain on X") of the whole move.
    • “It seems sweaty in like, a couple of ways.” – Amanda Mull [43:12]

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Notable Quotes

• On the Credit Card Wars:

  • “If stores want to sell things to those customers and they very much do, they just sort of have to eat it.” — Amanda Mull [11:43]

• On Domer’s Risk Tolerance:

  • “It’s a risky endeavor. Yes. You have a parachute if you’re, quote, unquote, betting on a stock. In prediction markets, there’s no parachute." — Domer [30:44]

• On Prediction Markets’ Surge:

  • “Nate Silver was a nobody in 2008...now it’s such a big focus. They're thinking about the world in numbers. And prediction markets is a good way to show the world in numbers." — Domer [31:57]

• On AI's New Direction:

  • "First of all, [Sam Altman] says that they've solved mental health, which is what a, you know, what an advance for society...It does seem sort of sweaty. Like, it seems a good word." — Amanda Mull [41:59; 43:12]

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Episode Timeline

• 01:15–07:58 – Dreamforce & San Francisco politics
• 08:05–20:41 – Amanda Mull: Credit Card Wars and economic stratification
• 21:20–38:05 – The Polymarket Power User: Domer interview, bet resolution, and implications
• 39:24–43:43 – OpenAI's “perv mode” announcement and ramifications

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Tone & Takeaways

• The episode skillfully mixes skepticism, admiration, and humor—probing both the promise and the pitfalls of new business trends.
• Listeners are left with a vivid sense of how financial incentives shape consumer products (credit cards), the complexities and social effects of betting on news itself (prediction markets), and the sometimes strange directions Silicon Valley’s best and brightest are now venturing (AI companionship).

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For those who missed it:
This episode is a punchy, news-rich conversation blending wonkiness, behind-the-scenes reporting, and a look at oddball characters pushing the boundaries of business, money, and technology. If you’re intrigued by the collision of high finance, internet culture, or just really big bets, it’s not to be missed.

Transcript

[Amanda Mull]

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[Amanda Mull]

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[Stacey Vanek Smith]

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[Amanda Mull]

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[Stacey Vanek Smith]

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[Brad Stone]

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[Stacey Vanek Smith]

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[Brad Stone]

And I'm Business Week editor Brad Stone in for Stacey Vanek Smith. And today, Max, you're treating us to a follow up on Polymarket.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, we've got an interview with the biggest prediction market better around. His name is Domer is fascinating.

[Brad Stone]

But before that, our friend Amanda Mull will join us in the studio to talk about her latest piece for business, the credit card wars. What's behind those sky high fees from Amex and Chase and what it tells us about the state of the economy.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And Brad, you've got the underrated story. What is it?

[Brad Stone]

That's right. One leading AI firm just announced Max, a major change and said their chatbot is about to get a little salacious.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You know, I've been thinking we needed an after hours segment of everybody's business. I'm glad we'll be able to get there this week. Brad, you live in San Francisco. You're here in New York with me right now, in for Stacy, who's traveling. But the thing that is bothering me sitting here with you is you're missing Dreamforce, the big Salesforce conference, which is going on right now in San Francisco.

[Brad Stone]

It's true. Here's what I'm not missing. Terrible traffic, closed streets, jammed restaurants, 50,000 people flooding into San Francisco. But I do feel like I'm missing something. I mean, the city comes alive. Salesforce is bringing in Metallica and Benson Boone to perform. The energy floods into the city. And Marc Benioff, Salesforce's founder and CEO gets to play magnanimous host.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

This is so embarrassing for San Francisco that the Dreamforce, this conference held by a software as a service company is the big event. But I guess it is the big event.

[Brad Stone]

This is the counterculture here in 2025. But look, every has these big events. Apple has WWDC, Facebook has Connect. Customers come, press comes. The CEO gets up there and makes big pronouncements. And occasionally Max really puts his foot into it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Right. And that's why we're talking about this, because Marc Benioff, who, you know, until very recently, I guess right up until Donald Trump became president, was known as this like Democratic donor, influential liberal. He had helped raise taxes in San Francisco to pay for more aid for homeless people. He has done a complete 180 since Trump's election. He got on the phone with the New York Times and just by the by mentioned that he was in favor of having federal troops come into San Francisco. This is obviously happening in other cities. Democratic mayors and local officials are, are almost uniformly against it. Mark Benioff welcoming the change. He said, we don't have enough cops, so if they can be cops, I'm all for it. Welcoming in the federal troops to, to.

[Brad Stone]

Help Dreamforce out here and basically has spent the rest of the week trying to walk back. But look, I mean, House does not like Marc Benioff. He is not in favor. He is associated with the Democratic Party. Meanwhile, his rivals like Larry Ellison and Oracle, soaring at least in some part on the strength of their connection to the White House. So, you know, Mark is trying to be opportunistic here.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, I think he wants in on that, basically, is what you're saying. And why not? I mean, it's been really, it's been good times for anyone who is closely connected to Donald Trump, or at least.

[Amanda Mull]

It seems that way.

[Brad Stone]

Yeah. And the federal government is a big part of Salesforce's business. So I can see why he's sort of throwing stuff against the wall right now. At the time of this recording, at least Salesforce stock is down 25% this year.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

But Brad, I mean, you know this. But like, it's so funny because first of all, Mark Benioff doesn't live in San Francisco. He lives in Hawaii. He g. He, he wears Hawaiian shirts, which is fun. And that's kind of like his main thing. But anyway, he doesn't live in the city. He gave this interview from his private plane, which is always a good look. So, like, there are a lot of things about this that are just kind of, I mean, just like, amusing and just, like you said, kind of crassly opportunistic.

[Brad Stone]

And we were curious, right, what Dreamforce ATT made of this year's conference and of all the hubbub.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah. So we sent out a Bloomberg tech reporter, Yana Knoedler, out in San Francisco among the badged hordes, the Dreamforce attendees, to ask them, you know, how excited they were for this, had they seen any celebrity sightings. And here's what she found.

[Amanda Mull]

How excited are you about Dreamforce this year?

[Domer]

Very. It's my first time to be here. So very excited.

[Max Chapkin]

Oh, it's my first time. This is overwhelmingly wonderful.

[Domer]

Oh, we're pumped. I'm here representing Six Flags, and so we're doing some really cool things with Agent Force.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Last time I was here when they announced Data Cloud.

[Brad Stone]

So going from Data Cloud to all.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

The AI stuff is pretty cool.

[Amanda Mull]

Are there any celebrities you spotted or that you're excited about?

[Domer]

Not yet, but I'm going to keep my eye open.

[Amanda Mull]

The band, Metallica. That's what I'm excited for.

[Max Chapkin]

Well, I just saw Mel Robbins, and that was amazing.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Hopefully Mark Cuban's here.

[Amanda Mull]

It's always tough to get to see.

[Domer]

Matthew McConaughey, but he's usually pretty good.

[Amanda Mull]

How do you feel in San Francisco? Do you feel safe here? Absolutely.

[Max Chapkin]

I'm from New York.

[Tom Keene]

Oh, yeah.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Beautiful city. I'm from Indianapolis. It's probably better right now than it is there.

[Amanda Mull]

As long as you're close to this.

[Max Chapkin]

Close to Dreamforce, you're okay.

[Amanda Mull]

But if you get outside of here, not so much. Have you seen the comments of Benioff around bringing the National Guard into the city to keep it safer?

[Domer]

I don't think it's a bad idea.

[Amanda Mull]

I've been walking here from the train, so I didn't understand why they would need that here. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

[Max Chapkin]

It makes me wonder if Dreamforce shouldn't move. You know, safety is first.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

That probably was, I don't know, a mistake.

[Amanda Mull]

Come on.

[Domer]

I mean, it's a city.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's not a border. All right, there's one guy among these people who have some familiarity with US Law, and everybody else is just like, yeah, whatever just brings all that rule.

[Brad Stone]

No, I mean, I think the attendees have put their finger on something that perhaps Mark, because he's living in Hawaii and spending his time on his jet, doesn't quite realize, which is that the city has, I think, turned a corner. Obviously, there are some problems. It's also a city that is just not going to, it's not constitutionally willing to, to sit back and see the National Guard. I think that it would portend real protests.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Are you saying that the voices we just heard do not represent, like, the full gamut of political beliefs in San Francisco? Is that what you're saying, Brad? Because I think you're right. Like, there are a lot of people who are, like, not only would not be that excited to see Marc Benioff release the new agent force, but, but who are probably like a little bit angry about Dreamforce even being there, worried about gentrification, don't like Donald Trump. I mean, you'd. I think you, you said this earlier, but I mean, there would be a naked bike protest for sure if, if the National Guard comes in and a naked bike protest that would dwarf Portland, Oregon's naked bikes.

[Brad Stone]

Yeah, no, I, I do not want to see the National Guard in San Francisco. I think there'd be some anger and, and protests and, and the city, frankly, I don't think needs it right now.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I think we need to get. Have the National Guard stop these tech conferences.

[Brad Stone]

Yeah, that's funny.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Brad, are you familiar with the phrase or the word points maxing? Do you know what points maxing is?

[Brad Stone]

I have a vague idea. We're talking about credit cards. We are.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

We're talking about these super aggro high end credit cards that cost hundreds or almost $1,000 a year. And there are all these people who are really obsessed with them. There's a craz competition. In the latest issue of BusinessWeek, Amanda Mull, who is our guest, calls it the war for America's rich. It's all about credit cards. And we're going to get into that. Amanda's here now. Hey, Amanda.

[Amanda Mull]

Hi.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So can you just explain what is happening with premium credit cards for those of us who are, like, still in the dark ages of like, you shouldn't spend hundreds of dollars for a piece of plastic that gives you miles.

[Amanda Mull]

Well, I think that, like, the top line is that they're taking over the world sort of, or at least they're taking over the world in the act of using a credit card is very, very similar, no matter which one you use. So if a bank wants you to use theirs versus a competitor's, they have to figure out what they can offer you in order to get you to do that. And in order to offer really, really affluent customers more and more things, they've moved into all kinds of spheres of life. Credit card companies have long sort of colonized the airport and your travel experiences. They've been involved with hotels, car rental, but more recently they've moved into events, sports, dining, all kinds of other things that rich people like in order to come up with new perks, new incentives, new coupons to attract a very particular type of customer.

[Brad Stone]

This story was surprising to me because I've always felt like one of the dirty little secrets of the credit card business is that, you know, rich people, wealthy people, they don't borrow from their credit cards. Right. They don't run up debt. And so it was shocking to me that there is this battle over the affluent segment. Explain the economics of this battle.

[Amanda Mull]

Well, you're right that the wealthier people get, the less likely they are to carry a balance on their credit card. But that's only one way that credit card companies make money. There's two more ways. So one of them is fees, which are getting higher and higher at the high end. But the big one is interchange fees. And those are the fees that are paid by merchants. Every time anybody makes a purchase in their establishment on a credit card. They run between like 1% and like 3 and a half percent, sometimes more on the premium cards. And that is the source of a lot of revenue for card issuers.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, this is the crazy thing like, and we should say some of the names of these cards. So like we're talking about the American Express Platinum card, the Chase Sapphire Reserve card.

[Amanda Mull]

Well, those are the two biggest players right now. You've also got the City Strata Elite, the Capital One Venture X, and there are other smaller cards offered by other banks, but those are the big ones from the big banks right now.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And like you're saying they, they make money because they charge the holders a fee as much as like 700, 800 bucks a year. But also, and I don't think this is intuitive, like when you swipe that card at a store, the store pays a percentage and they pay more money if it's a high end card. So if you're swiping just like a, like a, I don't know, I don't know what has the lowest fee.

[Amanda Mull]

You know, just like the basic sort of like entry level credit card that your bank normally.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Visa. Yes, that's like what, like one and a half percent or something? Or 2%?

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah, it's like one to one and a half percent.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

But then if you swipe one of these super high end cards, an American Express Platinum card, we're talking over 3, 3%. Why would a merchant agree to that? Like, why does that. I can see Why a credit card would want to charge more. But why is that like the way the system works?

[Amanda Mull]

Well, merchants are in the US at least, are sort of stuck. If they want to process transactions from people who hold these cards, then they sort of have to take them. A lot of markets around the world limit the amount that credit card processors are allowed to charge in interchange fees, but the United States does not. So card networks, which are Visa, MasterCard, American Express basically can sort of set their own fees. And then banks that issue cards can decide which tier of processing they want to put those cards at. So the really, really high end cards come in usually, you know, two and a half to as much as 5%. But when you put more and more like high income Americans on those high end cards, the penalty for retailers and merchants for not accepting those cards becomes greater and greater because those are the people who make a lot of purchases, they spend a lot of money. This is why one of the reasons that American Express used to not be accepted at a lot of places, but so many high, high income Americans, high spending Americans now use American Express cards that if stores want to sell things to those customers and they very much do, they just sort of have to eat it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, Amanda, you talk in the story about this war for these wealthy consumers. What does it look like? Like, how are these companies competing with one another?

[Amanda Mull]

Well, you see it show up in, in advertising and marketing. That's probably where most people have noticed it, if they've noticed it. I went to the US Open this summer. Amex and Chase are both huge sponsors of the US Open. They both had built a series of enormous sort of spaces and booths and experiences on the grounds of the US Open. Their luxury suites in the stadium are like, sort of across from each other. There is a huge, a huge war to get into spaces where wealthy people spend time and where they have interests. So you see it pop up there. If you've been watching NFL this season, you see probably dueling ads for Chase, Sapphire Reserve and MX Platinum. They both refreshed their perks offerings this year and raised their fees. And so they're, they're both involved in this huge push right now to convince new consumers that they are the, the one credit card to rule them all.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You got Capital One opening up these fancy coffee shops, including one like right under our building.

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah, yeah, you get Capital One opening coffee shops. You get credit card companies sort of racing to the airport lounge game. Before the airport lounge game in 2013, American Express opened its first airport lounge in Vegas. And before that all the airport lounges were owned by airports and sort of mediated by airports. And American Express was like, well, we know our. Our shoppers love airport lounges, so, like, why don't we do this ourselves? 2023 Chase was like, here's ours. They've opened seven since then that are, like, huge and luxurious. Made to order food. You can get a massage, you can get a facial. You can. You know, there's all of these. All of these things. And now Capital One also has airport lounges. Like, they're just looking for ways to show up in the places where wealthy people are spending.

[Brad Stone]

Okay, so we've talked about the appeal of these cards to merchants, the reason why the banks are fighting each other. But what is the appeal to customers? I mean, I admit I'm an Amex platinum card holder. The fee rankles me almost $1,000. You know, the airport lounges are packed with people. Buffets of milky eggs and fruit and Covid and influenza.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I mean, I just.

[Brad Stone]

I' not maximizing my point. So why are these cards desirable? And why are they particularly interesting and desirable to millennials and Gen Z?

[Amanda Mull]

Well, part of the story is prestige. This is why all kinds of luxury goods are desirable on some level. Credit card companies have done a really great job in the past couple of decades of marketing these cards, not just as payment implements or tools, but as things that mark you as a particular type of person.

[Brad Stone]

Wait.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's that feeling you get when you pull out the platinum card is what you're seeing, and then you hear the plot. It plunks down. It's heavier than a normal card.

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah, well, and I. I did a story a couple years ago about why so many cards are made of metal right now, and somebody from American Express told me that within the industry, they call it plunk factor.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, the plunk factor.

[Amanda Mull]

It is. It is fun to pull out, like, a fancy credit card and just, you know, splash it down on the table. Prestige is a huge part of this.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Now, I do not have one of these cards, and I have resisted them partly because I think that airport lounges are dumb. And, like, it's just the same as the airport, but more crowded. You know, you can get food and drinks and. And seats and wi fi in the normal airport without paying hundreds of dollars or waiting on a line or whatever. But I have wondered. I do have that, like, FOMO feeling, Amanda, like, that I might be missing out. Am I making a mistake? Are our listeners who might be considering this making a mistake by not, you know, paying up for American Express Platinum or a Chase Sapphire Reserve or a whatever one of these other ones.

[Amanda Mull]

Well, I think this is the other big element of their appeal is that all of these cards promise thousands of dollars in annual savings if you pay the upfront fee and if you use their particular set of credits and rewards and perks correctly. The credits and rewards and things like that are largely bent toward travel. They're bent toward more and more recently luxury shopping, dining out. So if you're a person who goes on several vacations a year and eats out a lot in a major city and shopping at Saks Fifth Avenue or Lululemon or has an Equinox membership, then like you are going to like see some savings on those purchases you would make anyway because of this. But then also what these cards do, I think is create a set of perks, some of which are underwritten by third party retailers, third party brands who want to get their products and their services in front of this, like, very particular set of American shoppers who are spending, you know, the top 10% of American households spends 50% of the consumer purchases annually at this point. So this is a very powerful group of consumers if you are selling basically anything. And so this allows them to get their products and their services in front of these shoppers. And then the credit cards usually structure their rewards in ways that then sort of encourage you to create a habit with those new products or services. Like the Lululemon credit that American Express just introduced for its platinum card. It's $300 a year, but it's in $75 quarterly increments.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Brad, take advantage of that.

[Domer]

75 bucks a quarter.

[Brad Stone]

It's just so much work. But Amanda, you mentioned what you've called the K shaped economy, right? Wealthy people responsible for over half of all consumer spending, potentially propping up this economy. So what does this mean battle between credit card companies and banks for the wealthiest shopper? Tell us about the economy right now.

[Amanda Mull]

Well, I think when you see products and services start to gather at either end of the extremes on the product and service continuum, you have an indication that brands, companies, retailers are looking at their sales data, looking at the economic data and going, there's not all that many people spending money and there's not all that many people with discretionary income. And if you are a discretionary business, which like Equinox, Lululemon, Apple, Music, those all are, then it makes a lot of sense to turn your business toward satisfying the whims of people who are doing all the spending. And I think credit cards like Those third party brands and retailers have made basically the same calculation because if you make your revenue on interchange fees, on credit card fees, then you need people who are spending a lot of money and who are spending frequently.

[Brad Stone]

So, Amanda, you are clearly as sophisticated as it gets when it comes to these cards. What are you using? And I've admitted to being an Amex Platinum cardholder. Max is a conscientious objector. What are you holding and how do you maximize the points?

[Amanda Mull]

Well, I use an American Express Delta Reserve card.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Ooh, that's a nice one.

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah, it's a fancy one. It is their highest end Delta co brand card. It is above the Platinum. But how these names work out.

[Brad Stone]

Why would she just call me out?

[Amanda Mull]

It has a lower feedback.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Plus punk's harder than yours.

[Amanda Mull]

It's purple. It's a lovely shade of purple. No, the how the co brand cards work is like a whole different thing because you get premium versions of those too. The Platinum Delta Amex doesn't have the regular Platinum AMEX perks and it costs a lot less. So I'm from originally from Atlanta, which means of course, that I am a Delta Flyer. And so it has like perks that work for me about like, you know, I get companion fares, I get upgrades and things like that. And it basically works out. I use the $200 Delta Stays Craf credit to book a hotel room this year.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, listeners, if you have one of these credit cards or if you have thoughts on one of these credit cards, send us an email. Everybody'[e-mail] that's everybody's with an [e-mail] Tell us if you are a Delta holder or a or a American Express holder or like me, a conscientious objector. Amanda, thank you for doing this. Stick around. You'll be back at the end of the show for our underrated segment.

[Amanda Mull]

I'll be here.

[Felix Salmon]

What are the consequences of getting on Europe's bad side?

[Amanda Mull]

The rationale is more like those guys.

[Felix Salmon]

How is stealth wealth changing retail?

[Amanda Mull]

You can have taste and still buy dupes.

[Felix Salmon]

What does a $6.2 million banana have to do with any of us? People don't like the attribution of serious financial value to comedy. Join me, Felix Salmon and my co hosts Emily Peck and Elizabeth Spires as we talk about the most important and obscure stories in business and finance. Follow Slate Money, wherever you like to listen.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, Brad. Last week on the show, Stacey and I talked to Joe Weisenthal about this new world prediction markets.

[Brad Stone]

I loved it. It didn't make me any less skeptical of, of sites like Polymarket, but I learned a lot.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Well, you know, I think I might be prediction pilled here, honestly, but, but in any case, we're just sort of like wondering like who are these guys who are playing in, in this world? I mean, obviously this is a world that is sort of on the gray area in terms of legality, but, but is that is becoming very popular and very influential. And we found a guy. Now his name, I'm going to tell you his pseudonym, it is Domer. But if you go to Poly Markets Leaderboard, this is like the list of all the bets on the site and you sort it by volume, you will find that this guy Domer, whose handle on Polymarket is just waking up, his avatar is a Ryan Gosling image, has bet $413 million on this site.

[Brad Stone]

Is this his living? Is this what he does?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

This is what he does. This is his full time job, is making prediction market bets. And, and you know, we want to understand like what this is, like how a person who is sophisticated, who's really playing in this world thinks about it and also like where he sees it going. Like, does he think this is the, that we're like at the beginning of something? Is this, is this a sideshow? So we got into all that. But this interview starts with Stacy just asking him like, what is the deal with all your handles?

[Brad Stone]

Oh boy. Okay, let's listen.

[Max Chapkin]

Your handle on Polymarket has changed. It evolves. Do you mind talking a little bit about that if people look for you there?

[Domer]

Yeah, it's almost always the latest Ryan Gosling movie and I'm not sure, I think that started with Driver. So that was a long time ago. And then I've just kind of been slowly but surely replacing it with his newest movie.

[Max Chapkin]

Are you like a Gosling fan?

[Domer]

I mean, who isn't?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I'd love to just hear, first of all, this is your full time job, right? Making bets on prediction markets. Would love to hear kind of how that happened. Like how you found yourself in a position where you are, you know, basically for your full time job going and trying to predict everything from who is going to be the vice presidential pick all the way to like, I don't know, like what Taylor Swift song is going to be on the Billboard top 100. Like, how did you wind up there?

[Domer]

Yeah, so out of college I had just like a regular full time job, etc. And on the side I was kind of playing poker and this was like the late 2000. So online poker was, like, super popular, and I had started to make more money doing poker than I was at my job, and I was like, let's give it a go. And so I quit to play poker. But within probably, maybe less than a year, I had found where you could bet on stuff like the Oscars. And so I was like, wow, I watched the Oscars. Like, I can bet on who's going to win. Like, this is. This is really exciting. And then I found that you can bet on, you know, the presidential candidates. And I'm someone that kind of like, you know, I grew up watching Meet the Press on Sundays. Like, I'm into politics as kind of like, you know, something that I'm tracking. And so I. I was like, okay, let's do this as well. And so it just really kind of launched from there, and I've been doing it full time ever since.

[Max Chapkin]

So, like, what is your. What do your days look like? Are you just, like, doing research on a bunch of different things at once? Because you put a lot of work into this.

[Domer]

Yeah, this is my job. So, I mean, the first thing I do when I get up is I look at my phone. Do I have alerts what has happened overnight? Because, you know, in prediction markets, kind of sleep is the enemy, right? When you're asleep, the news is not sleeping, right?

[Amanda Mull]

No, no, it's not.

[Domer]

Yeah. So you have to catch up on what happened while you were away, whether that's sleep or some other obligation. And then you have to immediately get to work on, like, some market that I'm trading in. Let's say Eric Adams, to drop out, Maybe has moved 20 cents. And it's like, okay, did it move 20 cents? Why did it move 20 cents? Was there a story in the New York Post? So it's kind of catching up on what's happening. And then as you're progressing through the day, it's tracking the news in real time. And you need the news as fast as possible, and you need the highest quality news because sometimes news is misleading or you get a little morsel of something that hints at something else. So there's also a lot of nuance involved in terms of. Of tracking the news and kind of figuring out what's actually happening as opposed to what people are reporting is happening.

[Max Chapkin]

Do you mind explaining what it is about this kind of betting market that was appealing to you? Because poker, I feel like that's a story that we're all pretty used to hearing the game and the strategy, but. But for something like this, when I look at It. It seems so random and a little fly by night. Like, what was it about this that drew you in?

[Domer]

Yeah, I mean, so here's the issue with. With my issue with poker is it's like you could be playing perfectly, right? You could be playing optimally. You can. You can be a calculator, you can be mathematically perfect, and you can still lose money because there's a little bit, at least a little bit of luck involved. What kind of drew me to prediction markets was like, you can be right about something and you would be paid off. You can do the research, you can find the answer, and it's like, there's not that much luck involved, and you can really kind of distill things down to, like, the root of the issue and kind of figure out what's going.

[Max Chapkin]

To happen, unlike Oscar bets and stuff, because it seems like there's so much luck involved in that. Really? Explain that.

[Domer]

No, not at all.

[Max Chapkin]

Okay.

[Domer]

So, I mean, well, I mean, if you think about it, right? So the Oscars are voted on by, I don't know how many people it is at this point, but, you know, a long time ago, it was like 6,000 people, right? And that's not that many people. If you're reading reporters, like, these reporters talk to actual voters. So you can get a sense of what's popular and what's not. And you can look at all these precursors, and within Hollywood, there's all these smaller subgroups that hand out awards that are always giving awards to each other. So you can kind of figure out what's popular and what maybe is going to happen at the Oscars.

[Max Chapkin]

How many bets do you have going right now?

[Domer]

Oh, my gosh. A thousand.

[Max Chapkin]

Maybe you have a thousand bets.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

We should just say, if you look at the Poly market leaderboard, domer has made $400 million worth of bets.

[Max Chapkin]

You've made $400 million worth of bets.

[Domer]

Yeah. It even shows the number of markets that I've bet in, and it's probably closing in on $10,000.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, so 1,000 open bets right now. Can you just take us through a couple of them?

[Domer]

Well, the big one right now that I'm literally tracking, and I may sneak and view some tweets while I'm recording. This is how many albums Taylor Swift is going to sell in her first week. That's one that I'm really tracking right now. And, you know, there's some esoteric stuff like, is the Japanese Prime Minister going to actually be installed? Like, so it runs the gamut from Stuff that's not that serious to. Stuff that's actually like super serious in some country.

[Max Chapkin]

How. How big are the bets that you have on these? Do you mind telling us?

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah, why?

[Domer]

That also runs the gamut. Something like Taylor Swift. I'm betting a lot of money. Something like Japan, where I'm kind of trying to learn on the fly. Maybe I only have like, you know, a couple thousand at risk.

[Max Chapkin]

What's a lot of money?

[Domer]

Maybe closing in on a million. Yeah.

[Max Chapkin]

You betting a million dollars on Taylor Swift album sales?

[Domer]

I think right now it's probably 600,000. Yeah, but it could be a million by Sunday.

[Max Chapkin]

How many do you think she's going to sell?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I should say Domer. We are recording this on October 9th. It will air one week from today. Just so you know, if you're thinking about edge or timing or anything like that.

[Max Chapkin]

Oh yes.

[Domer]

So I think, I think the number will be just a hair under 4 million album sales, which is like an absurd amount. She's gonna make the record by quite a lot.

[Max Chapkin]

Now if you were betting on like in the stock market, if you were betting a million dollars in the stock market, this would be a big bet. This would be like. If you were betting on a company, this would be a company you could research for years. There'd be all these reports from analysts. You could do all that deep research. Why wouldn't you put your money there? Why wouldn't you bet on like Nvidia or something? Why would you choose to bet on Taylor Swift album sales instead?

[Domer]

That's a great question. So one thing about prediction markets is that, you know they're 0 to 100, right? So if you find a market that's super underpriced and it's trading at 5 cents and you think that's going to win, right? That's, that's a 20 to 1 payoff. That's gigantic. Whereas if you're researching Nvidia and it's like, okay, it's underpriced by three bucks, like your upside is so capped. And then the other thing about the stock market is there can be random variations. Like you can literally have the perfect thesis, like XYZ is going to happen, like this is going to happen two months from now. But in the intervening two months, maybe there's some crisis in South Korea where they've run of chip ingredients or whatever. There could be any number of things that kind of invalidate your thesis. Whereas in prediction markets you can kind of wrap your head around the entire thing in once. And the 0 to 100. Nature is also super compelling as well.

[Max Chapkin]

But the downside is so much higher for Taylor Swift than it is. Because even if Nvidia stock doesn't do what you hope it will, you still own the stock. And this is a bet. So it does seem like there's that aspect of it.

[Domer]

Yes, there's. Yeah, it's a very risky. It's a risky endeavor. Yes. You have a parachute if you're, if you're, quote, unquote, betting on a stock in prediction markets, there's no parachute.

[Max Chapkin]

But that doesn't bother you, the no parachute?

[Domer]

No, it's very appealing to me. It's like an arbiter. It's like an arbiter of the truth. Like, if you're wrong, you will be punished. You will get zero. So it's the ultimate determiner, Right. If you bet on Nvidia and your thesis is wrong, the stock may go up anyway. Right. But in prediction markets, if you're wrong, you're done. You know, you've got zero.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Can I ask Domer? I mean, the reason we're talking about this is that, you know, the, the entity that owns the New York Stock Exchange put a big investment in polymarket, which just a couple years ago was like, I, I had been following the space. I thought Poly Market as this kind of like, shady one that, like, was, I mean, basically illegal. It's still, we should say, in a bit of a gray area. Legally, I think technically, Americans are not supposed to be placing bets on it. And yet again, the. The owner of the New York Stock Exchange just made a huge investment. Why do you think these markets are becoming so popular? Right? Like, why is this space going mainstream?

[Domer]

So I think in theory, people have loved prediction markets. It's been a thing for maybe decades, and it's always been like, oh, this is coming. Oh, this is coming. Oh, we're going to make prediction markets. But this has kind of been like the actual mainstreaming of it. And it makes so much sense because, okay, let's say you're an oil trader, right? And you're trying to trade on what's going to happen in the Middle east and there's a peace deal and maybe oil drops by five bucks or whatever. Like, you've not bet on the actual event. You've bet on kind of of a derivative of that event, right? So prediction markets kind of distill it down to the actual thing that's happening. So a very popular market on prediction markets is will there be a recession? Right. And you can bet that in financial markets, any number of ways, but in prediction markets, you can bet on the actual event. You can distill it down to its truth. Another reason that it's become so popular is because people nowadays, I feel like, are much more attuned to the data. They're much more into forecasting. Like, Nate Silver was a nobody in 2008, and that type of analysis was like, nothing like 20 years ago. Like, you wouldn't even be on TV with that. Whereas now it's such a big focus. They're thinking about the world in numbers. And prediction markets is a good way to show the world in numbers.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

How concerned are you about kind of like insider trading? So the risk that you're betting on a market and you are at a disadvantage because a participant is attempting to manipulate that market. You know, I brought this up last week. Some of these markets are really small. There have been suggestions that in some elections, supporters of various candidates have been, like, making bets to attempt to, like, generate headlines. Like, how much does that concern you? And is that like a barrier here? Is that an opportunity? I'm just kind of curious what you think about the whole insider trading question.

[Domer]

I think it's a very interesting question, and it's something that kind of needs to be figured out. But I also feel like it's a predictable kind of like attack vector on a market. Right. You can kind of figure out, okay, is this market able to be insider traded? And so if I have assessed that a market could be insider traded, like, I'll probably put a lot less liquidity on that. So, I mean, you can kind of figure it out, but obviously it is an issue.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah. How worried are you when you're making a political bet? I don't know if you're betting on the New York City mayoral election or whatever. The odds are being manipulated by a participant.

[Domer]

I mean, the New York City mayoral is a great example because somebody who signed up as a brand new account bet on Adams to drop a lot of money right before he dropped.

[Max Chapkin]

Really?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, my God.

[Domer]

Yeah. And it's kind of cartoonish because that seems like exactly the candidate who would insider trade his own announcement.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, Dahmer, we're going to stay in touch. We're going to find out what happens with this Taylor Swift bet. And we will not participate in the markets.

[Brad Stone]

We're going to.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

We're going to stay objective.

[Max Chapkin]

But if I were to participate, my money would be on you, Dahmer.

[Domer]

Awesome.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Thanks for joining us.

[Max Chapkin]

Thanks for joining us. Have a great one.

[Brad Stone]

I want to know who is taking the contrarian bet on Taylor Swift album sales. That's not a great bet, but actually related. Every time Domer scores a win, somebody else or at least an equal value is being lost. I'm not going to say there's compulsive behavior here, but there's certainly the potential for that. And so how many losses are being enabled by this platform here? In regulated markets, the SEC are supposed to protect the investor. Nothing is protecting investor here.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You know, normal people just screwing around on the Internet are not necessarily as attuned to the risks that that somebody who's like a professional, better and a normal person is going against Domer. Like if you're going to try to bet in the mayor's race, not only might might you be betting against Eric Adams himself, but you could also just be betting in some very sophisticated traders who are better at this than Domer.

[Brad Stone]

Is the equivalent of a speed trader. Right. He's just better at this than you are.

[Amanda Mull]

Which.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Well, is he though.

[Domer]

So.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So you heard in the interview, Domer made this huge bet. And after the interview I. I reached out to him to, to ask him if he could sort of give us an update on how the bet went.

[Brad Stone]

This is the Taylor Swift album sale bet.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

This is the Taylor Swift album sale bet. He said it could be as high as a million bucks by the time it resolved his. His money on the line. So he recorded a voice memo. I have not listened to it. You have not listened to it? I. I think you may know know the outcome of this bet. I do not know. So I'm looking forward to hearing from Domer. Did he lose a million bucks or not?

[Brad Stone]

I can't wait.

[Domer]

I think on the podcast I predicted a hair under 4 million albums for Taylor Swift. Well, in the end she sold 4.005 million albums. And what that meant was that I was, I was doing this really big hedge on how many albums she would sell because the, the two big components are like physical sales and like selling the whole album on itunes and then also streaming like Spotify and stuff like that. And so there's two big components. And so one of the sites was all encompassing, right? So that 4 million number. And on that site I was betting over 4 million album sales. And then on another site it excluded streaming. And on that one I was betting under 3.5 million album sales, excluding streaming. Well, a miracle literally happened and maybe it was serendipitous because I went on your podcast, but I won both bets because the one went to above 4 million 4.005. And then the second one was like 3.487 or something. So just by the skin of my teeth, I won both bets and I ended up making around $80,000.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh my God.

[Amanda Mull]

Wow.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Domer.

[Domer]

Amazing.

[Brad Stone]

But our point, which is he is so sophisticated in how he placed those bets on two different sites and anybody who, who placed the contrarian bet there just lost money.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes. And, and I, I think there are two questions. Like one is the wisdom of betting on one of these things and whether you should be like taking money out of your 401k to. To gamble on Taylor Swift. I think the answer there is no. But I do think, should you be listening to people like Domer? And the answer there is yes. You know, we had the Taylor Swift album sales a week before the rest of the world knew. I do think, like, as somebody as like a news obsessive, I find Polymarket in particular to be like, super interesting, just as a way to kind of like get a baseline view of what is going to happen in the future. There are two kinds of people in the world. People who think about climate change and people who are doing something about it. On the Zero podcast, we talk to both kinds of people. People you've heard of, like Bill Gates.

[Brad Stone]

I'm looking at what the world has.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

To do to get to zero. Not using climate as a moral crusade. And the creative minds you haven't heard of yet. It is serious stuff, but never doom and gloom. I am Akshat Ratty. Listen to Zero every Thursday from Bloomberg podcasts on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. All right, Brad Stone, I have been told that you have an underrated story for us this week, and Amanda Mull is here to join in the fun.

[Brad Stone]

Wonderful. Yeah, it's a little sauc. Okay, so in an X post this week, Sam Altman, CEO of OpenAI, maker of the leading chatbot ChatGPT, said the company had solved how to protect people with mental health issues and that it would now support mature conversations in December when it introduces age verification. So Sam basically said they want to, quote, treat adult users like adults, and in other words, allow ChatGPT if you want it, to talk dirty to you.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I think they're gonna keep it very classy here. Brad.

[Brad Stone]

A respondent on X called it perv mode to Sam. Sam said, only if you want it. But no, it's really remarkable to me. These companies have gotten a lot of criticism for how their products have the potential to manipulate vulnerable users into developing unhealthy emotional relationships. And they seem to have really, really thrown caution to the wind and embrace this vision of AI that we saw in the classic movie Her. And at the risk of their users perhaps falling for the ones and zeros.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Well, so I just have two thoughts. One is, I don't think the GPT porn is really the issue here. It's more the point you're making, the broader point about like confusing people, causing them to, you know, fall deeper into these rabbit holes, like doing things that, you know, normal people are not really equipped to deal with. We've seen a lot of stories, including some that Bloomberg have published about the ways that AI algorithms can essentially drive people crazy. Either because it's presenting them with, you know, self harm content, or it's like convincing an elderly person that they have a girlfriend that they don't have and then they go travel off and get hurt or something. But then the other, my other thought is this is kind of pathetic and it makes me worry for OpenAI's business because if you think about other sort of hot companies, they don't usually embrace porn. That's kind of like not a sensible thing to do. If you've got a great business, if you've got a great business, you want to charge big companies lots of money to use your service. You don't need to find, I'm sorry, like losers on the Internet to like, to like fill out your revenue. Right. YouTube didn't have adult content. Facebook didn't have adult content. None of these companies do because it's like bad for business. So the fact that ChatGPT is doing this makes me feels like a bearish signal for, for the company.

[Amanda Mull]

Max, I think if you read Sam Altman's tweet, he says it's fine. He says that they've solved mental health, first of all, which is what a, you know, what an advance for society.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Quickly, like in two weeks.

[Amanda Mull]

Yeah. And they solved age verification, which is also like, wow, what new technology. And so it's fine, like you can be pervy with ChatGPT now in the privacy of your own home if you're a consenting adult. Don't worry about it.

[Brad Stone]

Well, let me just say, you know, when, when GPT5 came out and there was a lot less emotional affirmation in the chatbot responses, users kind of rebelled, right? And a lot went back to four. They seem to want that kind of relationship with their chatbot. And you know, Elon, who's behind with Grok, has made it a sort of selling Point, right. That he's going to have these companion personalities within, Within Grok. And, you know, the rivalry between the two companies is fierce. As avenue Q said, 20 years famous musical comedy. The Internet is for porn. And so, you know, OpenAI doesn't want to be outflanked here.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I'm sorry, but, like, if you are curing cancer, if you have the most powerful.

[Brad Stone]

We're not. We're not doing that anymore.

[Amanda Mull]

We've abandoned that. That's not profitable. We're doing porn.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You're like, let me just. Yeah, we're going to do that. But like, hey, why not? I. I guess, I don't know. Like you said, Amanda, if they, if they've really solved these problems, then, then maybe it's fine, but that's fine. It does seem. It all just seems like, like a little weird.

[Amanda Mull]

This, this to me sort of like reeks of like cooking your brain on X the Everything app, because so much of the chatter on there is about, like, these, you know, AI waifus and being able to have a sexy AI girlfriend. And like, I, I do wonder if the discernment of the people making These decisions at OpenAI isn't perhaps colored by that. It does seem sort of sweaty. Like, it seems a good word. Yeah, it seems sweaty in like, a couple of ways.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

This show is produced by Stacey Wong. Magnus Henriksen is our supervising producer and Amy Keen our executive producer. Sam Rogich handles engineering and Dave Purcell, fact checks. Sage Bauman heads Bloomberg Podcasts. Special thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin and Maria Ling. If you have a minute, please rate and review the show. It'll mean a lot to us. And if you have a story that should be our business or you want to tell us about which erotic chatbot you prefer, email us@everybody's bloomberg.net that's everybody's with an sloomberg.net thank you for listening and we will see you soon.

[Felix Salmon]

This podcast is brought to you by FedEx. The new power move. Hey, you know those people in your office who are always pulling old school corporate power moves? Like the guy who weaponizes eye contact. He's confident, he's engaged, he's often creepy. It's an old school power move. But this alpha dog laser gaze won't keep your supply chain moving across borders. The real power move? Having a smart platform that keeps up with the changing trade landscape. That's why smart businesses partner with FedEx and use the power of digital intelligence to navigate around supply chain issues before they happen. Set your sights on something that will actually improve your business. FedEx the new power Move this is.

[Tom Keene]

Tom Keene inviting you to join me for the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. It's about making you smarter each and every business day. We bring you a recap of what happened overnight in Europe and Asia, the day's economic data and complete coverage of the US Market open. We cover stocks, bonds, commodities, currencies, even crypto. All the information you need to excel. Bloomberg Surveillance also brings you the analysis behind the headlines. We do that with lengthy conversations with our expert guests, the smartest names in economics, finance, investment and international relations. We do all this live each and every weekday. That bring you the best analysis in our daily podcast search for Bloomberg surveillance on YouTube, Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen on the east coast. Listen at lunch and on the west coast when you wake up. That's the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast with me, Tom Keene, along with Paul Sweeney and Lisa Mateo. Subscribe today wherever you get your podcasts.