Podcast Summary: Everybody's Business

Episode Title: The Business of KPop Demon Hunters
Date: September 5, 2025
Hosts: Max Chafkin & Stacey Vanek Smith
Featured Guests: Joe Weisenthal (co-host of Bloomberg’s Odd Lots), Sam Sanders (host of the Sam Sanders Show)

Episode Overview

This week’s episode of Everybody’s Business explores the concept of "situationships"—complicated, poorly defined relationships in the context of business, economics, and culture. The hosts and their guests discuss:

• The economic and market uncertainty created by US tariffs and the legal limbo surrounding them.
• The blockbuster success and business model of Netflix’s hit animated musical KPop Demon Hunters.
• The impact of tariffs and inflation on the all-American pumpkin spice latte.
• Ongoing listener skepticism and discourse about artificial intelligence.

The tone remains lively, conversational, and slightly irreverent, peppered with pop references and snappy one-liners.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. "Situationships" in Business and Policy

Timestamps: 01:15–06:34

• Stacey introduces the theme of "situationships": relationships lacking clarity or certainty, drawing a parallel to the current US economic landscape with AI, tariffs, and shifting markets.
• The hosts consider the AI boom: is it a friend, a threat, or simply a colossal unknown in terms of jobs and productivity?
• Quick street interviews with NYC students and a “chatbot” (04:08) reveal how AI is viewed as the “greatest cheat code for college” but also an uncertain tool not to be fully trusted.
  • “Take AI with a grain of salt because they make mistakes just like humans do.”—AI grad student (03:57)
  • Max remarks: “The funniest thing about being an AI hater is that the biggest AI haters are AI experts in many cases, because they're the ones who actually understand the limitations of these technologies.” (05:39)

2. Tariff Turbulence: Market Uncertainty and Legal Drama

Timestamps: 06:34–22:51

• Stacey and Max dig into the ongoing confusion around US tariffs, particularly those levied using emergency powers (IEEPA) by former President Trump and their pending legal challenge at the Supreme Court.
• Joe Weisenthal joins (08:50) to unravel why markets sometimes seem to favor the continuation of tariffs, despite economic orthodoxy being strongly anti-tariff.
  • “Policy uncertainty is not great for the market.” — Joe Weisenthal (10:02)
  • Markets "hate uncertainty" as much or more than they hate tariffs themselves, leading to volatility as their legality is debated.
  • If the tariffs are struck down, markets and businesses face a massive logistical mess:
    • Potential refunding of tariffs collected.
    • Possible lawsuits and massive uncertainty for companies making investment decisions reliant on the tariffs.
  • Max: “What if the Supreme Court said no, tariffs can no longer be collected, and the White House instructed the ports to keep collecting the tariffs? I mean, there's potentially some very weird situations here.” (15:04)
• Joe explains how the longer tariffs persist, the more likely they are to become permanent, as industries adapt and become entrenched lobbyists for their retention (15:49).
• Discussion expands to global concerns about aging demographics, political instability, and how Western institutions are being stress-tested by such “situationships.”

Notable Quote & Analogy:

• Stacey: “It’s kind of like that song by The Clash: ‘Should I stay or should I go?’—if they (the tariffs) stay, there’s trouble, if they go, it’ll be double.” (21:54)
• Joe: “I think there are a lot of things like that these days where we sort of arrive at these forks in the road and we'd sort of want them to never be resolved because neither of the resolutions seem great. I mean, I think about this with AI. Do we want the AI bubble to burst or do we want AI to take all our jobs? I’m not sure at this point.” (22:10)

3. The Business of KPop Demon Hunters: Streaming’s Surprise Blockbuster

Timestamps: 26:07–39:13

• Max and Stacey dive into the summer’s most surprising hit, Netflix’s KPop Demon Hunters, with guest Sam Sanders (host of The Sam Sanders Show).
  • Animated musical about a K-pop girl group fighting demons, featuring viral songs currently dominating Spotify charts.
• Netflix’s “fuzzy math” model is dissected. Unlike traditional box office reporting, the success of streaming films is measured less by revenue and more by subscriber retention, brand dominance, and conversation:
  • “What they're hoping is that this movie being so popular keeps people coming back and subscribed, and those subscriber fees help their bottom line.”—Sam Sanders (30:58)
• The deal that landed the movie on streaming is also a case study in post-pandemic Hollywood economics. Sony, despite making the movie, only earned a flat fee, and Netflix claimed all the upside.
• Discussion of the cultural shift:
  • Decline of theatrical releases as monocultural events, replaced by IP-driven streaming blockbusters.
  • Sam compares the fate of movies to the decline of opera: “Opera doesn't not exist now. It still exists. But it's not nearly as dominant as a cultural force. I think moviegoing in the classical sense at the movie theater is going the way of opera.” (36:43)
• The takeaway for Hollywood: Over-reliance on existing IP won’t last forever, and breakthroughs like KPop Demon Hunters reveal the necessity (and risk) of developing new, original content.
  • “Hollywood's about to face a problem. They actually need new IP. And you know what KPop Demon Hunters is? It's new IP.”—Sam Sanders (38:15)

Memorable Moments:

• Sam Sanders on dancing with his dog to the movie’s songs: “Let me tell you, I was dancing in the living room with the dog last night. It's really cute, and it's really fun.” (27:33)
• Stacey’s admission: “The movie of the summer is on Netflix.” (02:03)
• The hosts joke about pumpkin spice versions of everything, including cat litter (43:59).

4. Tariffs and the Pumpkin Spice Latte Economy

Timestamps: 40:45–44:48

• The hosts confess neither of them has ever had a Pumpkin Spice Latte—but highlight how tariffs and inflation have drastically impacted its cost.
  • In 2005, a PSL cost ~$3.35; in 2025, up to $7.50–8, an almost 70% increase (42:30).
  • All key spices (cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves) are imported and subject to new tariffs, potentially pushing prices even higher.
  • “Pumpkin spice has now infiltrated almost every corner of consumer culture. There is pumpkin spice cup of noodles, pumpkin spice Spam […] pumpkin spice cat litter. It's everywhere.”—Stacey (43:59)
• Max notes the politics vs. prices disconnect: “We don't really have to argue about it. You can just look at the prices of certain goods, and, like, they're going up. […] The prices don't really lie.” (43:14)

5. AI Skepticism: Listener Feedback and Industry Reality

Timestamps: 44:48–47:38

• Stark, often negative listener reactions to AI are read on air—ranging from annoyance at customer service bots to critiques of AI’s real utility versus hype (46:36).
  • Notable email: “Although I don’t always agree with Ed’s approach to arguing against the current hysteria gripping markets around AI, he’s right about the fundamental disconnects between hype and reality.”—Josh, CMU ML engineer (46:36)
• Max reaffirms his position: “I feel like everyone should be an AI skeptic, especially if you're a journalist. Like journalists by nature are supposed to be skeptical of everything. I try not to use AI because I think it's going to actually make me a worse writer. And I think that everyone is kind of melting their brains a little bit.” (47:20)

Notable Quotes by Segment

• AI & Youth Perspective (03:57):
  “Take AI with a grain of salt because they make mistakes just like humans do.” — AI grad student

• On Policy Uncertainty (10:02):
  “There probably is some truth to the idea that policy uncertainty is not great for the market.” — Joe Weisenthal

• On Tariff ‘Situationships’ (21:54):
  “It’s kind of like that song by The Clash: ‘Should I stay or should I go?’—if they stay in place, there’s going to be trouble. If they go away, it'll be double.” — Stacey Vanek Smith

• On Streaming Metrics (30:58):
  “What they're hoping is that this movie being so popular keeps people coming back and subscribed, and those subscriber fees help their bottom line.” — Sam Sanders

• On Moviegoing & Cultural Decline (36:43):
  “I think moviegoing in the classical sense at the movie theater is going the way of opera.” — Sam Sanders

Episode Structure with Timestamps

• 01:15 — Introductions, theme of “situationships”
• 02:55 — AI’s impact on jobs and attitudes; student/AI interviews (03:57)
• 06:34 — Tariffs legal drama & Supreme Court challenge
• 08:50 — Guest: Joe Weisenthal; market responses to tariff turmoil
• 21:54 — The Clash analogy & impact of uncertainty
• 26:07 — KPop Demon Hunters: plot, virality, Netflix’s business strategy
• 27:33 — Guest: Sam Sanders on the cultural moment of KPop Demon Hunters
• 30:58 — Business of streaming vs. theaters
• 38:15 — Lesson for Hollywood: need for new IP
• 40:45 — Pumpkin spice latte price inflation and supply chain
• 44:48 — Listener emails: AI skepticism
• 47:20 — Max on why everyone should be an AI skeptic

Final Takeaways

• “Situationships” define this era for US policy, business, and culture: whether with tariffs, the evolution of AI, or hit movies surprising Hollywood.
• Tariffs generate immense uncertainty in markets and threaten supply chains—from tech to lattes—putting the fragility of institutional norms into sharp relief.
• KPop Demon Hunters’ runaway success shows how new IP and viral streaming hits can disrupt media business models, but also heightens questions about the end of traditional moviegoing.
• Pumpkin spice everything epitomizes the unforeseen economic ripples of policy changes on daily consumer life.
• AI skepticism continues to dominate both expert and popular discourse, underscoring unresolved disconnects between the hype and practical realities.

Listener Feedback: The hosts invite ongoing input and stories from listeners at everybodys@bloomberg.net.

Closing note:
“Resistance is futile, Max Chafkin, you will be assimilated.” — Stacey (via AI-generated voice, 48:28)

For business, culture, and economic watchers, this episode offers a smart, witty, and informative look at the “in-between” zones shaping the news and our lives in 2025.