Tickets, please!

Summary

Podcast Summary: Everybody’s Business — “Tickets, Please!”
Date: April 24, 2026
Hosts: Max Chafkin & Stacey Vanek Smith

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores “tickets” in all their forms, from jet fuel as the ticket to global travel to the astronomical costs associated with concert and sports tickets. The hosts and guests examine the summer travel outlook shaped by Middle East conflict and jet fuel shortages, and take a deep dive into the Live Nation/Ticketmaster antitrust trial and its implications for consumers. The episode closes with an underrated story about tariff refunds and bureaucratic hurdles businesses face.

---

I. The Geopolitics of Jet Fuel & Summer Travel

Guest: Michelle Brohard, Economist, Head of Policy and Geopolitical Risk at Kepler

The Strait of Hormuz & the "Jet Fuel Crisis" ([03:25]–[15:12])

• Setting the Stage:
  The war with Iran has led to intermittent shutdowns of the Strait of Hormuz, crucial for global oil (and thus jet fuel) transport.
• Oil & Jet Fuel Inventories:
  • "At day 50…we are at a point now where we had enough oil on water that got drawn down." — Michelle Brohard [04:42]
  • The next squeeze comes from drawing on land inventories, "and that happens very quickly…like the Ernest Hemingway quote: bankruptcy starts gradually, then suddenly. The same thing’s happening here in the oil market." — Michelle Brohard [05:21]
• Europe's Jet Fuel Problem:
  • Europe has about 4–6 weeks of jet fuel left, but that's optimistic because tanks can't be emptied to zero. Resupplies have essentially stopped.
  • "What’s not normal is not receiving resupply. So while 50 days of cover is normal, what isn’t normal is not receiving resupply." — Michelle Brohard [07:23]
• Military vs. Civilian Needs:
  • Brohard's biggest concern is not just canceled vacations but military vulnerability:
    "You don’t fight a war without jet fuel...so Europe, not only are you worried about your summer vacation but you’re also kind of worried about, does this make Europe really vulnerable to Russia?" — Michelle Brohard [07:51]
• U.S.'s Role & Capacity:
  • The U.S. exports significant jet fuel, mostly to Europe and Latin America, but can’t meet all of Europe’s needs if the crisis extends.
  • In wartime, military jet fuel demand can double, potentially redirecting what would've gone to European civilians.

Economic Forecast & Human Impact

• Escalating Crisis Possibilities:
  • If current conditions persist for another 50 days, "it certainly looks like an economic disaster...Europe is out of jet fuel. A lot of these countries are out of fuel, diesel fuel." — Michelle Brohard [12:49]
  • Contrary to alarmist predictions ("oil prices to $300"), Brohard points out:
    "We don't need to lose 20 million barrels a day of demand. We need to lose seven. And that's probably around $150–170 a barrel. It's terrible...but it's not $300." — Michelle Brohard [13:23]
• Key Quote on Stakes:
  • "There’s nothing more fun than like trying to figure out what’s going to happen to jet fuel and how this is going to solve itself." — Michelle Brohard [14:17]
    (With tongue-in-cheek pushback from Stacey!)

---

II. Ticket Prices: Why Do We Pay So Much?

Main Guest: Ashley Carman, Music Industry Reporter

The Human Cost of Experience ([16:21]–[19:45])

• Personal voicemails and admissions from hosts about the exorbitant costs they’ve personally paid for concert tickets ("north of $800" for the Wagner Ring cycle, "250 bucks a ticket" for Hamilton).
• Quote:
  "I spent like $300 on tickets to see Taylor Swift...and it was totally worth it. I had just gone through a pretty horrible breakup and it was really cathartic." — Listener voicemail [17:00]

The Live Nation/Ticketmaster Antitrust Trial ([19:45]–[32:48])

• What Happened:
  • Jury found Live Nation illegally monopolized the concert business by combining artist promotion and ticket sales—giving preferential treatment to their own venues and ticketing.
  • DOJ settlement let Live Nation off with a small fine ($10 million) compared to hundreds of millions in possible damages.
• Inside the Courtroom:
  • "As far as the stakes, people from a consumer perspective were really hoping this case would remedy some of these high ticket prices." — Ashley Carman [20:23]
  • Cathartic trial moments: Internal Live Nation messages revealed, e.g. charging $50–60 to park on grass, execs described as saying, "rob them blind, baby. That's how we do it." — Quoted by Max Chafkin from Leah Nyland's reporting [23:29]
• Ancillary Fees & "Gouging":
  • "Within Live Nation...some employees refer to ancillary fees as ‘Ansel’...‘These people are so stupid, I almost feel bad taking advantage of them. I gouge them on Ansel prices.’" — Max Chafkin [23:29]
• Why Have Concert (and Sports) Tickets Gotten So Expensive?
  • Live events are now primary income streams for artists as music sales falter.
  • "Live has become a very significant part of how artists make money." — Ashley Carman [25:40]
  • Hosts compare ticket prices to a ‘K-shaped economy’: the best seats at astronomical prices, ordinary fans left out.

Dynamic Pricing & Resale Market

• Dynamic Pricing:
  • Venues and platforms use surge pricing algorithms, like Uber, resulting in wild ticket fluctuations.
  • "Some artists...leaning into this idea of dynamic pricing, which...can change between sessions within minutes of each other." — Ashley Carman [27:56]
• Secondary Market:
  • Resellers buy up blocks and resell at huge markups, while sometimes, if demand falls, prices drop close to the show day.
  • "I did that for a concert actually pretty recently where I waited till the day of and I got really awesome seats for a lot [less]." — Ashley Carman [32:33]
• Will Prices Go Down?
  • Carman is skeptical: “I am skeptical things will improve… the venue needs those fees to make money because they don’t get any of the face value.” — Ashley Carman [29:24]

---

III. Tariffs and Refunds: Bureaucracy and Backchannels

([33:45]–[37:39])

The Tariff Refund Labyrinth

• U.S. court struck down some tariffs and ordered up to $160 billion refunded to businesses.
• However, getting a refund isn’t automatic—each business must navigate an online portal, complete with a tedious instructional video.
• "Hundreds of thousands of businesses desperately trying to get their money back are now trying to tune in to this video and log onto this portal. And...I watched the video. It's kind of funny..." — Stacey Vanek Smith [34:01]
  • The portal is reportedly glitchy and cumbersome.

Trump’s Odd Refund "Strategy"

• Trump publicly mused that businesses shouldn't apply for their refunds, implying it would endear them to him for future favors.
• "Trump said that it would be, quote, brilliant if they don't do that. And if they don't do that, I'll remember them." — Max Chafkin [36:18]
• Playful, Godfather-inspired banter by the hosts on the "favor" dynamic and the impracticality of Trump remembering so many.

---

IV. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Oil Markets:
  "How do you go bankrupt? Gradually, then suddenly. The same thing's happening here in the oil market." — Michelle Brohard [05:21]
• On Industry Gouging:
  "These people are so stupid, I almost feel bad taking advantage of them. I gouge them on Ansel prices...rob them blind, baby. That’s how we do it." — Live Nation executive (quoted by Max Chafkin) [23:29]
• On K-shaped Economy:
  "When you combine the use of dynamic pricing, these crazy fees, and the fact that music and sports are important parts of our culture, putting them over to this bottle service approach...it just feels gross." — Max Chafkin [30:44]
• Concert Ticket Regret/Justification:
  "At the time I said this was the last time I’ll ever pay that much for a ticket, but it was the best show and I got my whole life. So 100% worth it." — Stacey Vanek Smith [17:30]

---

V. Key Timestamps

• [01:34] — Introduction of jet fuel issue and ticketing theme
• [04:09] — Segment on the energy crisis with Michelle Brohard
• [09:02] — Deep dive into jet fuel's role in military and vacation travel
• [16:21] — Listeners and hosts share their most expensive ticket stories
• [19:45] — Ashley Carman on the Live Nation/Ticketmaster antitrust trial
• [23:29] — Internal communications reveal industry price gouging attitudes
• [29:24] — Can we expect ticket prices to fall? Ashley Carman’s skepticism
• [33:45] — The convoluted process for tariff refunds and political hints from Trump

---

VI. Tone & Style

The conversation is sharp, witty, and peppered with banter, even while handling complex and urgent topics. The hosts don’t shy from humor—even discussing existential risks to the global economy or poking fun at bureaucratic red tape and political gambits.

---

For listeners (and non-listeners alike), this episode reveals the hidden connections between geopolitics, business, cultural experience, and consumer frustration—tying together summer travel plans, the mechanics of modern war, concert memories, and a labyrinth of fees and tariffs that make business everyone’s business.

Transcript

[Max Chaffkin]

Modern enterprise. It's a lot of moving parts. Comcast Business helps orchestrate it all, with SD Wan keeping 150 hospital locations connected and zero trust security protecting a bank's 2,000 branches. No one does business like Comcast Business.

[Ashley Carman]

Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities and drive growth. Chase for Business helps business owners like you with personalized guidance and convenient digital tools all in one place. With that guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn [e-mail] business chase for business make more of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase Co.

[Michelle Brohard]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts

[Max Chaffkin]

Radio news Stacey it's the end of April, and many people, myself included, are starting to think about the summer plans. Oh yeah, and those plans, no matter where, where you're going, what you're doing, they often involve tickets. Buying tickets, yes, this is true.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's the thing that unites all kinds of experiences. Concert, travel, sports events, tickets. You have to have a ticket to get through your turnstile or get onto the jet bridge. But right now, there is a lot going on with tickets of all kinds, and we're going to be talking about that today.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. First, of course, the first one I thought about air travel. Those tickets, plane tickets are getting more expensive, and the culprit is jet fuel.

[Michelle Brohard]

You don't fight a war without jet fuel. Right? So Europe, not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but you're also kind of worried about, like, does this make Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no more jet fuel to supply these European bases? Then what happens? While a war doesn't continue on because of jet fuel, it certainly can end because of jet fuel.

[Max Chaffkin]

We're talking with economist Michelle Brohard about why this commodity is going to affect your bottom line.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And Max, there has been some kind of promising news in the concert and sports ticket space. And now, could it be the end of the endless fees for concerts and sports?

[Ashley Carman]

And so it's moments like those where you start to see behind the curtain. Like intuitively, when you're at that amphitheater, you're probably like, oh, a thing that I used to bring, now I pay for it. Cost me 15 bucks. But when you see it in the aggregate and you're like, whoa, they're making that much money just on the lawn chairs.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Reporter Ashley Carman gives us the lowdown of the Live Nation Entertainment trial that marks a change in how we pay for experiences.

[Max Chaffkin]

From Bloomberg Business Week, this is everybody's business. I'm Max Chaffkin.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And I'm Stacey Vanek Smith. Today on the show, tickets tariffs and the changes coming to your watch. Stay with us, Max. The Strait of Hormuz has opened and closed nearly a dozen times since the US Attack on Iran in February. And with President Trump extending the ceasefire indefinitely until an agreement between the U.S. israel and Iran can be reached, I feel like this back and forth is going to potentially be pushed out a lot longer.

[Max Chaffkin]

Last week we heard from the head of the International Energy Agency, Fatih Birol. He had this to say about the looming energy crisis that's caused by this shutdown in the Strait of Hormuz. We are in Europe. We have maybe six weeks or so jet fuel left. If we are not able to open the Strait of Hormuz, if the refineries as a result will start to work, I can tell you soon we will hear the news that some of the flights from City A to City B might be canceled as a result of lack of jet fuel. Bad news for those going to City B, Stacey?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It is. And bad news for anyone trying to get from any point A to any point B if it involves fuel. To help us sort through all this back and forth and what it might mean for us and for the rest of the world, we have economist Michelle Brohard, head of policy and geopolitical risk at Kepler. Michelle, welcome.

[Michelle Brohard]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Just to start out, really, generally, we're about two months into this war with Iran. The Strait of Hormuz has mostly been closed during that time. Give us an overview of the situation and what it means for the world right now.

[Michelle Brohard]

Well, the situation in the region is we're at a stalemate. It's what it looks like. Yeah. There the US Is blockading the strait. Iran is blockading the strait. And so you're kind of like at a stalemate. Bombs aren't flying anymore. There might be like a few gunfires at boats and boats getting seized. But for the most part it looks like at the moment we're at a stalemate. And so at day 50, which is where we're at, I think maybe we might be on day 49 or 50, at day 50, we are at a point now where we had enough oil on water that got drawn down.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oil on water, meaning oil in the boats, like oil Oil on the boats

[Michelle Brohard]

that were moving around the world have all delivered all of their supplies to the region. Oil in transit has delivered all their supplies in the region. That of course includes crude oil, but it includes jet fuel, it includes gasoline, it includes diesel. And so the amount of oil and water that we've seen drawn down is pretty significant. Which means that now the next phase is to draw down on land inventories. And that happens very quickly. So while online inventories have been drawing grad gradually, they're about to draw rapidly. So like the Ernest Hemingway quote, how do you go? Bankruptcy starts gradually, then suddenly the same thing's happening here in the oil market. It happens gradually and then it's going

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

to happen and then all at once.

[Michelle Brohard]

Yeah.

[Max Chaffkin]

Michelle, just to zoom in on one of the sort of fuels you brought up, jet fuel. We heard a clip from Fatih Barol, who is the head of the International Energy Agency, talking about Europe essentially running low on jet fuel. Six weeks of jet fuel and we're see flight cancellations. Lufthans, I believe, cancel flights. Another airline canceling flight air. Yeah. What is happening there? Because six weeks of jet fuel doesn't sound that bad. If you had six weeks of heating oil in your tank at home, you wouldn't be especially worried. That's plenty of time to fill up, you know, get some more oil.

[Michelle Brohard]

Yes. Europe has about 50 days of COVID let's call it 45 days of COVID And it depends like in the Med has a different number than the than northwest Europe to different than the Balkans. So like it, it's kind of spread out. But in general, let's say they have six weeks. That means by the way, that you have to draw down all the way to zero, which is not possible. Right. Tanks have to have 20% remaining. So six weeks includes going down all the way down to the bottom. So like imagine you're drinking drink with a straw. You don't get everything out of the drink. Right. Because there's always something remaining in inside of the drink. So the six weeks assumes that we draw all the way down to zero, which is not possible.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So it's not six weeks.

[Max Chaffkin]

So it's actually four and a half weeks.

[Michelle Brohard]

Four ish weeks. But just to get put that into perspective, isn't the question really like how much does Europe usually run on? It normally runs on 50 days to cover. So it's not like Europe looks bad at the moment. If you looked at it based on the historical patterns, you would say, oh, it looks normal. What is not normal? Because it imports A significant amount. There's no more imports coming in. There's a few dribbles here and there from the United States. There's a few dribbles here and there from other countries. Dangote, for example, the Nigerian refinery has been sending some jet fuel. So you have a little bit, but what you don't have is the constant resupply. So while 50 days of COVID is normal, what isn't normal is not receiving resupply. And so that's when I say it happens gradually, then suddenly. Right. The resupply that they had been receiving has been happening. All of those boats have offloaded, all of the oil and transit has offloaded. And so now we're moving into the. And suddenly part where they're going to start drawing down dramatically. And I guess my biggest concern is that obviously my vacations are going to get canceled in the summer is my. One of my biggest concerns. But the other big concern that I have is what about the military? You don't fight a war without jet fuel. Right. So Europe, not only are you worried about your summer vacation, which I'm going to Europe for my summer vacation, but not only are you worried about your summer vacation, but you're also kind of worried about, like, wait, does this make Europe really vulnerable to Russia? What if there's no more jet fuel to supply these European bases? Then what happens? So, like, while a war doesn't continue on because of jet fuel, it certainly can end because of jet fuel.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So, Michelle, the US Is the largest producer of oil in the world, which still kind of blows my mind. What kind of a position is the US In? Can't we just make jet fuel? Jet fuel comes out of oil. Can't we just produce our own jet fuel and ship it out?

[Michelle Brohard]

Yes. Which we do. We export around 270,000 barrels a day of jet fuel. Maybe call it 300,000 barrels a day if you want to get, like on the high end. Almost all of it goes to Latin America and Europe. Now, who's going to get it first this time? Europe, because who can pay the most? Europe. Right. So it will go to Europe, but that doesn't meet Europe's demands. So while Europe can get some jet fuel from the US it's not going to be able to meet all of their demands. And Europe has their own refining capacity. Right. They can refine some and make their own jet fuel and they can change the yields of their refineries a tiny bit to make more. More jet fuel. But again, if they could have supplied their own jet Fuel before, they wouldn't be importing so much to begin with.

[Max Chaffkin]

Michelle, is the jet fuel conversation that we're having oil on the water, shortages in Europe, maybe even worse shortages in Asia. My sense is this is one of many similar things that are happening. I mean, there are diesel shortages in Asia right now. Is this going to all happen together or are there areas of special concern, for instance, like with jet fuel, where you're talking about it affects Europe's military capacity or something like that? Where are you you most concerned as you look at first, the likelihood that this thing could go on for weeks at least, and then all the knock on effects from that.

[Michelle Brohard]

Yeah, I guess my first concern as an American is American military.

[Ashley Carman]

Right.

[Michelle Brohard]

I have lots of concerns, but we're going to talk about just in general, the oil, the way that the oil market is constructed.

[Ashley Carman]

Right.

[Michelle Brohard]

Like, but the US Military being able to meet their fuel needs is obviously a concern. There is no doubt in my mind that Department of Defense surely took this into consideration before the war started. Right. If we're going to have this war and it's going to last six months, we need to make sure we have enough fuel for the war. Okay, let's pretend they did. Okay.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Are we sure?

[Michelle Brohard]

But I'm going to give them the benefit that they have some sort of contingency plans. They can. Of course. By the way, the US military, just to put this in perspective, consumes around 150,000 barrels a day of oil. When we move into wartime, the demand for US military jet fuel doubles. Now they're consuming 300,000 barrels a day of oil. Not on US oil. Which means that when their supplies run dry, they need to find a place to refuel. Right. They can refuel in the European bases, like I said, but Europe's got a problem, so. So it is possible. Stacy, back to your point. The US Is the largest, largest exporter of crude, plus products that 270,000, 300,000 barrels a day that goes to Europe could go to the US Military. Right. Like it can pivot. The administration can say, you know what, for national security reasons, all of our jet fuel exports are going to European bases and that's it. So there are ways to move it around. Of course it's going to be bad for European vacationers. Okay. So that's one thing I'm concerned about as an American and as a person who would be concerned about the US Military. The second thing I'm concerned about are the poor countries, the poor countries that need fuel for emergency vehicles. The poor countries that need fuels for hospitals. The poor countries that need fuel for harvest for just their food.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Let's say the conflict goes for another 50 days and oil supplies are constricted for another 50 days. What does the world look like at that point?

[Michelle Brohard]

Honestly, I can't imagine what it looks like. It certainly looks like an economic disaster in 50 days. Obviously, Europe is out of jet fuel. A lot of these countries are out of all fuel, diesel fuel. There was a. When I think I told you this, I was on BBC earlier today and the guy before me was like, oil prices are going to go to $300 a barrel. Let. Okay, but here's the thing. It sounds dramatic. Yes, and, but here's the problem that's not rational, right? Because the rational thing to think is, okay, we've lost 7 million barrels a day of oil, right? So we need to lose 7 million barrels a day of demand, right? So if we lost 7 million barrels a day of supply, we need to use lose 7 million barrels a day of demand. What does the price have to go to to lose 7 million barrels a day of demand? If it goes to 300, you're talking about like Covid level demand destruction. We don't need to lose 20 million barrels a day of demand. We need to lose seven. And that's probably around 150, $170 a barrel, which is a more like a. It's terrible and it's going to be really detrimental for the poor countries. But it's not $300 a barrel. So what we need to do is crush demand over talking about like these crazy prices. Right? Like realistically, we just need to lose demand.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And before we let you go, Michelle, I wanted to ask, what is the thing that you are watching most closely now? Is there something that you're most concerned about right now? Kind of in the situation that we're in?

[Michelle Brohard]

There are a few things. One, jet fuel is like, it's such a fascinating test case. There's nothing more fun than like trying to figure out what's going to happen to jet fuel and how this is going to solve itself.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Because wait, there's nothing more fun than that. I know I have to stop you there, Michelle.

[Michelle Brohard]

Okay, maybe my pan a chocolate for lunch is like a little more fun. But I just think about it. I'm like, it is so interesting. I remember when Covid during COVID oil prices, it was just like, what is going to happen? You're sitting on the edge. It's like watching a movie that you can't turn away from because you can't wait to find out how it's going to end because we don't know. We've never seen anything like this. Just like in Covid, we had no idea how that was going to end. And just like this, we have no idea, like economically how this is going to end. It's so exciting.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Michelle, thank you so much for talking with us.

[Michelle Brohard]

Thank you for having me.

[Max Chaffkin]

Modern enterprise. That's a lot of moving parts. Comcast business helps you orchestrate it all with SD WAN working at scale to keep 150 hospital locations connected and working as one. Plus SASE and Zero Trust Security, protecting financial data across a bank's 2,000 branches, and AI powered networking that optimizes traffic across five continents. No one does business like Comcast Business.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Max we live in a world that is really good at telling us what just happened, but not always so great at explaining why it matters.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's what we do every Friday on everybody's business each week. Stacey we take the biggest stories in business markets and the global economy and slow them down, adding the context you need to actually understand what's going on.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And if you want even more of that reporting and insight, a Bloomberg subscription gives you unlimited access to the journalism behind those stories.

[Max Chaffkin]

Subscribe [e-mail] podcastoffer

[Michelle Brohard]

the most I've paid for an experience, I think is $646 for my partner and I to see the eras tour in 2023. The most I paid for a condo

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

ticket was 3, $400 and it was the Charlie XCX Stadium Tour. And to be honest, don't regret it.

[Michelle Brohard]

Was it worth it? That is tricky. I am glad to have witnessed it, but I actually didn't have a great time. We got seats that were like sort of just parallel with the stage.

[Ashley Carman]

So I like couldn't even really see the stage.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I spent like $300 on tickets to see Taylor Swift in New Orleans with my mom and my sisters and it was totally worth it. I had just gone through a pretty horrible breakup and it was really cathartic to hear her perform some songs that, you know, she has many breakup songs.

[Michelle Brohard]

Did I enjoy it? I think there are more enjoyable concerts.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I had an amazing time and I don't regret spending that money. At the time I said this was the last time I'll ever pay that much for a ticket, but it was the best show and I got my whole life. So 100% worth it.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, that was a few of you. Those are some deep and personal conversations we're hearing. A few of you. Everybody's business listener is sending in voice memos, sharing in the prices you have paid for tickets. If you have more to say on this, and I know I do, I think Stacey will, too. Send us a voice memo or send us an email. Everybody's bloomberg.net While everybody was talking about concert ticket prices, Stacey. I think it's. It goes even wider than that. It's happening in sports. It's happening in all sorts of live events.

[Michelle Brohard]

Yeah.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's interesting that someone just used the word experience as opposed to a concert. Cause I feel like I always think of it as concert tickets, but it's more than that now.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, so this is personal, but what is the most you've ever paid, Stacy for a live experience?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

For a live or a concert or whatever? Okay. A concert. Okay. Well, this is serious.

[Max Chaffkin]

It gets embarrassing very quickly.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

This is super embarrassing.

[Michelle Brohard]

I.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Okay, I saw the Ring cycle of operas. The Wagner Ring cycle of operas. It's like 50 hours of opera. But I was, like, determined to do it. It was a lot. It was. All the tickets are like I was in the losing seats.

[Max Chaffkin]

Just put the number on. I.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It was like, probably north of 800 bucks.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay. This is like a humble brag because,

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

like, most people seeing German opera spending $1,000 to see like 50 hours of German opera. Who does that? I'll just tell you, wearing hats with

[Max Chaffkin]

helmets and stuff, because it's only fair. I think the most I've ever spent on a per ticket basis was when I saw Hamilton in like 2010 or something, which.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, that's a good one. That's not embarrassing.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's like super 250 bucks a ticket. We are meandering, though, because Ashley Carmen is here. She has been covered. She covers podcasts, concerts, the music business, audiobooks for Bloomberg. She has also been covering this really interesting trial that just took place over the Live Nation Ticketmaster combination. Ashley is here right now. How are you, Ashley?

[Ashley Carman]

I'm good. I also feel like I should shout out our antitrust team who has really been on this. I, because I live in New York, have been pinch hitting, going to the courthouse when the trial was happening. So I did spend quite a lot of time there and then also cover the music business all the time. So this concert issue beyond Live Nation has just been something that's simmering.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. This goes way beyond this antitrust dispute, but I think it makes sense to start there because it's what just happened. The trial was also just fun. I think you were in the courtroom. Just tell us a Little bit about what was at stake here with Live Nation, Ticketmaster, the whole thing.

[Ashley Carman]

Well, to set the scene, I think we can probably say most people in the US if not Earth, don't love Live Nation because it has become the stand in for high ticket prices and the reason why people are starting to pay hundreds, if not at times even thousands of dollars for tickets. So you have this, and they sell

[Max Chaffkin]

most of the tickets, they own many of the music venues, they represent many of the biggest artists, and they sell all the tickets. Right.

[Ashley Carman]

So this was the whole thrust of the entire case, was that they. It has now been found that they have been ruled to be illegally monopolizing the concert business by owning a promotions arm which represents the artists and helps them sketch out their tour and the prices and all that, as well as being a ticket seller. So they are able to put preferential treatment on where these artists go and make sure they're using their ticketing platform as well as the promotions are. But as far as the stakes, I think people from a consumer perspective were really hoping this case would remedy some of these high ticket prices and that maybe if Live Nation is broken up, which we don't know if that's going to happen, the judge has to decide now that the jury has ruled that perhaps that will give us a little relief and we will pay less for tickets.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. The thing. A couple of things about this trial that I found interesting. One is that the Department of Justice, just before the jury rendered its verdict, the Department of Justice settled with Live Nation, essentially allowing them to. To continue operating. It was like a pretty. I don't. Maybe I'm wrong, Ashley, but my sense is it was a fairly modest settlement. It's. It's certainly, I think, something like 10 million bucks. The potential damages here could reach into the hundreds of millions. And then the other thing is there were just these moments at the trial that I think were very cathartic. If you are somebody who has had the experience of paying a lot of money for a concert, and in particular around fe. So there were these messages from Live Nation executives talking to each other about how awesome it was to charge parking fees and all of these weird little fees that get tacked onto your event ticket.

[Ashley Carman]

Yeah. I mean, one moment for me that I was in the courthouse for. That I just found super fascinating. Was. So part of this is that Live Nation builds and operates amphitheaters, and I guess previously you could bring your own lawn chair to the amphitheater.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And.

[Ashley Carman]

And there was a document that was shown displaying how once Live Nation banned lawn chairs from the amphitheater. I forget the timeline on which this happened. I think it was over the course of a year, they made just millions of dollars on their lawn chair rentals. And so it's moments like those where you start to see behind the curtain. Like, intuitively, when you're at that amphitheater, you're probably like, oh, a thing that I used to bring, now I pay for it. Cost me 15 bucks. But when you see it in the aggregate and you're like, whoa, they're making that much money just on the lawn chairs. And then you're thinking about the parking and the food and the concessions, and it goes from there.

[Max Chaffkin]

I gotta read some of these quotes from our colleague Leah Nyland. Story, Leah Nyland, of course, Bloomberg's antitrust reporter. So, first of all, I learned that within Live Nation, at least some employees. And it's important to say that Live Nation said these chats are not representative of their policies. That's what they argued in court. They actually tried to get these excluded from the trial. But I learned that Live Nation, some Live Nation employees refer to ancillary fees as Ansel. And so there's a quote that says, these people are so stupid, I almost feel bad taking advantage of them. I gouge them on Ansel prices. In another exchange, this same executive bragged about charging people to park. $50 to park in the grass. $60 for closer grass. Rob them blind, baby. I'm reading from Leah's story. That's how we do it. So brutal.

[Ashley Carman]

And the team that was at the courthouse the day of the verdict did talk to the jury, a couple members of the jury, and they said specifically the messages they saw and how executives spoke did sway them on landing that this was the lead for Monopoly.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I mean, it also seems like, and maybe you can talk a little bit about this, that going to a concert used to be quite a bit cheaper or there were options, there were cheap options. And now it seems like the population price of concerts, maybe because of this, has just really, especially since the pandemic, gone nuts.

[Ashley Carman]

Yeah, there's a few things going on here. For one, I will say there are cheap concert tickets if you want to see Taylor Swift, the. One of the biggest artists in the world. Yeah, that's not going to be cheap. But if you want to see a band from Brooklyn, you could still get a cheap concert ticket. So there's that. But the superstars, yes, those prices have skyrocketed. And part of the reason for that is because previously you used to support artists by buying CDs, vinyls, that was their main money source. Now with streaming, while people do make a lot of money and streaming has helped bring the industry back from the piracy era, it's still not the same level of money that they were making during the CD and vinyl era. And so live has become a very significant part of how artists make money.

[Max Chaffkin]

The other thing that's happening, Ashley, and I feel like this has come up a lot in sports because there is sort of a parallel conversation in sports. These ticket fees are obviously a factor there as well. Ticketmaster sells a lot of sports tickets, but you also have this thing with pre sales where both for concerts, big concerts, Beyonce, and also now it's happening with World cup tickets where you have these sort of touted pre sales with extremely high entry points. And like the big conversation in the world of sports right now is around World cup tickets where you know to go see the US Even to get bad seats at this World cup, you're Talking about maybe $1,000 in the nosebleeds, $2,000 more as you get closer. And, and fans reacting to that in a really sometimes a negative way. Although of course some people are paying.

[Michelle Brohard]

Yeah.

[Ashley Carman]

And I think by that same token, you also have what happens in resale. So even if the ticket in that first go is, let's say, decently reasonable, you now have this. And I think this is partially just because tech has allowed it and also the regulations have allowed it where people can flip their tickets and get 10x the price and people are willing to pay 10x the price. And that doesn't trickle down to the artists. So that was, that's what Live Nation would say is the issue.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's, I think, part of what's happening. And I have this sense as somebody, I also buy a lot of Mets tickets and I'm a season ticket holder or whatever. And what I've noticed is it seems like because of the secondary market, you have companies like Live Nation, as well as teams, FIFA, whoever, are trying to essentially claim more of the sale price instead of charging a low price and then allowing a secondary market seller to jack it up, they just charge a high fee from the very beginning. And you can see why that's attractive to Live Nation, you can see why it's attractive to an artist, but for a fan, it sucks. And you have these Beyonce fans who are complaining that they paid hundreds of dollars in a pre sale and then the secondary market is act they're actually going for substantially less. Same thing is happening a Lot sporting events. We've seen the prices of World cup tickets right now in the secondary market are actually below the sort of entry point price.

[Ashley Carman]

Yeah. I mean, it's all supply and demand. So you have this tension where naturally, if you're an artist and you see that you sold your tickets for 200 bucks and now they're going for 1500 bucks, and you don't get any of the $1500. But actually, maybe in some cases, Live Nation is taking a fee on the resale in addition to the primary. You're like, wait, okay, I'm underpricing myself. And some artists might be okay with that because they view it as fan service, but other artists are now leaning into this idea of the dynamic pricing, which I think is what you're talking about, which is where it's like Uber, depending on the demand that the platform is seeing, the prices go up or down, it can change between sessions within minutes of each other. And so that's added fuel to this fire of how much does this actually cost? And then in the resale market, if the demand wasn't actually there, that they thought, because these are typically professional operations that are doing the reselling, they might drop the ticket because they're like, we want to sell it. We don't want to hold on to this. We're a professional operation that has hundreds of tickets that we bought.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So given all of this, are we going to see prices for tickets go down? There is a big secondary market. I think Live Nation may be not entirely wrong. That's a lot of where the. The higher ticket prices are coming. We do have this slap on the wrist. All this embarrassing stuff was exposed. Are things going to get better for people who want to go to 50 hours of German opera or see Taylor Swift?

[Ashley Carman]

I am skeptical things will improve. Oh, let's just say other ticket platforms can now compete against Ticketmaster. The issue is that those fees, in addition to going to the ticketing platform, also go to the venue. And the venue needs those fees to make money because they don't get any of the face value. They might get the concessions and maybe the parking, depending on the situation, but that's not enough to run a venue. And a lot of these stadiums, for example, have sports teams that only play certain parts of the year. And so they need to be making. Concerts are very profitable. They need to be making those fee dollars to pay their rent or keep operations. So, yeah, I think even if you have a different ticketing platform in there, I don't know that there's incentive to necessarily reduce the fees so they can

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

just pay the fine and all goes back to the same.

[Ashley Carman]

Well, they could theoretically get broken up. We don't know what the judge is going to do. And then that would actually be beneficial for other ticketing platforms that think that they will be able to compete more fairly because Live Nation isn't also doing the promotions and putting their own promoted artists into their own venues. And the other venues that don't use Ticketmaster will feel, oh, maybe now we have a real shot at competing against Ticketmaster operated or Ticketmaster ticketed venues and Live Nation operated venues.

[Max Chaffkin]

We talk all the time on this show about the K shaped economy. Like this idea that a greater than ever share of the economic value is being created at the very top end. Talking about very expensive cars or at restaurants. The fact that a lot of the, a lot of the revenue is coming from like these crazy bottles of wine that are being sold and then like nothing else. And this feels like a particularly unfortunate example to me of the K shaped economy. When you combine the, the use of dynamic pricing, these like crazy fees and the fact that like music and sports are important parts of our culture and like turning them over to this kind of weird bottle service approach to making money, it just feels gross. And you know, as somebody who enjoys going to live sports and stuff, it's really put me off. I've basically just decided like I'm not going to go to the World cup even though it's here, it's right here. And I love sports and I want to spend the money, but I'm not going to do it because I don't want to deal with this. And I wonder at some point whether that starts to become a factor or whether you can just go on like this forever charging hundreds or even thousands of dollars to see Taylor Swift or whatever.

[Ashley Carman]

Isn't this sort of like the housing market in New York? The rents keep going up, but people keep paying it. So until someone puts their foot down and ticket prices will drop to your point, people have seen if they don't buy the ticket until the last minute, or maybe on the resale market, the actual show didn't sell as well. So now there's a lot of empty seats or there's just a lot of tickets available. Those ticket prices do drop. So I think there are techniques that people are developing like, I'm gonna wait till the day of. I did that for a concert actually pretty recently where I waited till the day of and I got really awesome seats for a lot.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You like rolled the dice. What did you see?

[Ashley Carman]

I took my husband's mom to see Marc Anthony.

[Max Chaffkin]

Nice.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh my gosh. And how was it? It was great.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, wait.

[Ashley Carman]

I mean, awesome seats. And I think I paid maybe 90 bucks each and it was lovely.

[Max Chaffkin]

Ashley, Carmen, thanks for being here.

[Ashley Carman]

Thanks for having me.

[Michelle Brohard]

Foreign.

[Max Chaffkin]

Hi, I'm PJ Vogt. My podcast, Search Engine, has a new two part series for you. Of all the new technologies coming out of AI, the most transformative one might be driverless cars. They're already on the road in 10American cities and they're quickly coming to more. We tell the story of how we got here. The secret team at Google that spent 15 years building what might be the safest vehicle on the road. And we cover the fights brewing in blue cities where unions and politicians are working to keep those cars off the the streets. Listen to Search Engine wherever you get your podcasts. Want to keep up with everything trendy? From breaking news to shareable jokes, pop culture bites to viral food spots, it's all on TikTok. Download TikTok now to explore. All right, Stacy, it's underrated story time. What do you have for us?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I've got tariffs. Well, today it got real, or this week it got real because the court struck the tariffs down or some of them. And the Trump. Yes, exactly, some of them. And then the Trump administration was ordered, the federal government was ordered to give the money back.

[Max Chaffkin]

160 billion.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Up to $160 billion. Like more than half a million US companies and companies all over the world, but they all have to go register for their refund. This is not, this does not happen automatically. So there is a website and a portal that you have to sign up for and a whole process. Every single time you imported anything, you have to put in another complaint, essentially. And to get your money back. And in order to figure this portal out, to navigate this brave new portal, you have to watch a video. So the video dropped and like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of businesses desperately trying to get their money back are now trying to tune in to this video and log onto this portal. And. And I watched the video. It's kind of funny and I wanted to play it for you for our underrated story because I think you'll enjoy it.

[Max Chaffkin]

All right, let's give a listen. Hello and welcome to CBP's webinar for electronic refund enrollment in the ACE portal. Today I'll guide you through CBP's electronic refund process. Enter the related information from the email and establish a password. Select the Agreement checkbox and then select the sign up button. However, when you sign up for your account, you will receive a verification token email and must complete that step before moving forward. We are now logged in to the Ace Portal as a trade account owner. Thank you for watching.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Also, apparently the portal's been crashing. It's hard to use everybody's.

[Max Chaffkin]

Where is the East Wing Ballroom of webinars? I'm just asking, where is the, you know, Trump Hotel of webinars? I feel like they. This is an administration that knows how to do something flashy and they've really.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

They don't want people to get refunds.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's true.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Right. And then.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah, I mean, that brings us to. Actually, it's funny that you had this as your underrated, because my underrated story

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

is related also tariffs.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. So you're talking about one thing that could happen, which is businesses could go onto this website. They could watch the webinar, they could get. They could slog through this, they could enter the tokens or whatever it is, request their money back, maybe get the money back. Donald Trump went on TV earlier this week and offered a different suggestion, which is maybe they just don't ask for their money back.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Why wouldn't they ask for their money back?

[Max Chaffkin]

Trump said that it would be, quote, brilliant if they don't do that. And if they don't do that, I'll remember them.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, so if they just like, let the tariff fees that they paid, Trump

[Max Chaffkin]

say, is saying, what if you just let us keep the money? How about that? And there's a little bit of a threat maybe in saying, I don't know if it's a threat or a inducement or something. If you don't fill out this form, maybe Trump will be a little nicer to you in the future, which has. I kind of can't decide if it's

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Godfather, leave the gun, take the cannoli, or.

[Max Chaffkin]

It also reminds me of, like, the dynamic when you, like, split, get a bill with people and there's sort of a weird dance that happens and you're

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

like, dude, I had an appetizer and you had like.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah, but we'll see. I mean, we'll see if this works. There. There are a lot of companies, Stacey, you know this, and there are many of them are very small. It's hard to imagine that Trump will remember every single one that doesn't ask for their, their tariff money back. What's the thing in the Godfather like, you gotta ask on the night of his daughters. You can ask for any favor on that.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You come to me today on the day of my daughter's wedding to ask me for a favor.

[Max Chaffkin]

So that's. How do you not know this? That you ask for your refund back.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, you go to him on the day of his daughter's wedding.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. Because he can't turn it down. Right? Isn't that the deal?

[Michelle Brohard]

Yes.

[Max Chaffkin]

But I feel like he could still remember.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, he could still remember. He could still remember one day. And that day may not be soon. He's gonna come to you for a favor. This show is produced by Jasmine, JT Green and Stacey Wong. Magnus Henriksen is our supervising producer. Sam Rogich handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Special thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin and Maria Ling. If you have a minute, please rate and review the show. It means a lot to us. And if you have a story that should be our business, please send us an email. Everybody's loomberg.net that's everybody's. With an [e-mail] or a voice memo, we'll take. Or a voice memo. Yes. And you can send that right to Max's cell.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.