What’s the Deal With Summer Travel? Live With Brian “The Points Guy” Kelly and Nikki Ekstein

Summary

Everybody's Business – “What’s the Deal With Summer Travel? Live With Brian 'The Points Guy' Kelly and Nikki Ekstein”

Podcast: Everybody's Business by Bloomberg and iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: Max Chafkin & Stacey Vanek Smith
Date: May 8, 2026
Live from: Ludlow House, Lower Manhattan

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Overview

This lively, information-packed episode of “Everybody’s Business” tackles the current—often dismal—state of summer travel in 2026. With international conflicts, post-pandemic disruptions, and soaring prices, navigating travel feels more complicated than ever. Hosts Max and Stacey are joined live by Bloomberg’s “travel czar” Nikki Eckstein and legendary “Points Guy” Brian Kelly to break down what’s really happening with flights, prices, and travel “hacks”—from luxury splurges to budget-saving tips—so listeners can plan smarter (or at least laugh through the chaos). The episode ends in a fun “travel hack” competition between panelists.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Why Is Summer Travel So Bleak Right Now?

• Geopolitical and Economic Turmoil:
  • Travel has seen relentless disruption since 2020, from COVID to wars in Ukraine and Iran, upping fuel costs and complicating air routes ([07:34]).
  • Airline industry is in constant crisis mode, adapting to oil spikes, route closures, and shifting demand ([07:57-08:31]).
  • “We've not had... a long stable period for a while.” – Nikki Eckstein ([08:08])
• The K-Shaped Economy in Travel:
  • “The last expense that people cut from their budgets now post-pandemic is travel.” – Nikki Eckstein ([11:15])
  • Travel isn’t just for the ultra-wealthy, but what counts as “basic” is now closer to luxury prices. “Everybody who doesn't normally pay for luxury has to figure out how to come up to that basic level.” – Nikki ([11:31])
  • Lounges and upgrades are less exclusive, more crowded. Entry-level options everywhere are shrinking ([13:06]).

What’s Changed in Flying and Hotels?

• Premiumization & Squeezed Budget Options:
  • 27% increase in business class seats (2020-2026) ([13:32]).
  • Economy sections shrinking—to make room for “luxury loading”—even as overall seat numbers rise ([13:55]).
  • Spirit Airlines: “RIP to a real one.” (joking reference to the loss of ultra-low-cost carriers) ([13:06],[14:42]).
  • Hotels now commonly convert the smallest rooms into suites, eroding affordable options ([15:00]).
  • “It feels like things are getting more and more out of reach if you're just a normal person.” – Stacey ([15:30])
  • “You take fewer trips and you spend more on them is what most people are doing.” – Nikki ([15:38])

What's a Traveler to Do?

Nikki’s Hacks for Regular Travelers:

• Travel During Shoulder Seasons:
  • “Traveling in May and September as opposed to the peak summer months is usually a way to save money...” ([06:14])
• Google Flights & Travel Agents:
  • Use “Google Flights deals”—speak to it conversationally to find bargains.
  • Always book through a travel agent after finding the deal: “It is so crucially important to have somebody that you can call in the event of a cancellation or something goes wrong...” ([17:17])
  • “They take commissions off your hotel/flights—it costs you nothing.” ([18:45])
  • Travel and Leisure’s advisor list for reputable agents ([17:57])
• Consider Cruises:
  • With land-based hotel prices, especially in Europe, “so stratospheric,” cruises may actually save money—luxury for less ([19:15]).
  • “You can pull up to those same prime destinations in a cruise ship. For a very, very luxurious ship, you might be spending $600 a night...compared to what you get on land, they're good values.” ([20:18])

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Points, Perks, and the “Game” of Modern Travel

Brian “The Points Guy” Kelly’s Origin & Philosophy:

• Grew up “hacking” frequent flyer programs for family vacations; later turned maximizing points into a business ([23:36–28:25]).
• “To me, figuring out how to use points is like a crossword puzzle. I get immense satisfaction when you crack the code.” ([29:24])

The Credit Card Arms Race

• Chase Sapphire Reserve, Amex Platinum, etc.:
  • “The banks will give you thousands of dollars for free... Don’t tell yourself the game is over—it’s not.” ([30:35])
• Strategies for Listeners:
  • Get into the Points Game:
    • “If you have good credit... you can reap thousands of dollars.”
    • “I have 30 credit cards and over an 800 credit score... The more credit you have and the less you use... the higher your score goes.” ([31:27])
    • Pay the full balance monthly—if you pay interest, “you’re going to lose the value of the points.” ([31:25])
  • New Card Offers:
    • Chase Sapphire Reserve now offers 150,000 points for sign-up (~$3,000 minimum value) ([31:25]).
    • “You can get Amex cards, Chase cards… With Bilt, you can earn points on your mortgage and rent...” ([31:39])
  • Focus on Transferable Points:
    • Prefer cards that transfer points to multiple partners (AMEX, Chase, etc.), instead of airline or hotel-branded cards ([33:01]).
    • Foreign airline programs (Air France, Air Canada’s Aeroplan) often offer much better redemption deals than US airlines ([32:41]).
  • Tools for the 2026 Traveler:
    • Point Me (award availability aggregator), Seats Aero (shows flexible award space).
    • Use airline award booking tools for placeholder bookings—award tickets are now often cancelable/refundable, so rebook for cheaper flights as they open ([34:37]).
    • “Being on the offense is how you win at the points game.” ([35:58])

Notable Quote

“The game changes. The game will constantly change, but I assure you, it is still available for play.” — Brian Kelly ([30:52])

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Audience Q&A and Hot-Seat Topics

Lounge Access: Worth It?

• Lounge access on premium credit cards is worth it if you use other card perks like free travel credits, insurance, and unique services (e.g. Capital One Venture X actually earns you money with proper use) ([40:05–42:50]).
• “Never just take the $900 that the platinum card is a year and say, well, that's just 900. No, because you can actually get very easily more than that in value before you even take into account the lounge access.” — Brian Kelly ([42:24])

Is Private Jet Travel Really More Common?

• Nikki’s hack: JSX offers semi-private “light private jet” service NYC–Miami for ~$625, not $8,000+. You fly from smaller airports, minimal security, bring your dog, and avoid the big terminal chaos. ([48:45–51:09])
  • “You basically drive right up to the hangar. The TSA experience is you walk through a scanner on your way up the aircraft door. That’s it. And they’re very friendly.” – Nikki Eckstein ([50:58])
• True “private jets” are pricier but group seats and new models are pushing prices down ([50:07]).

Travel Scams & Pitfalls to Watch For

• Main “scam” is only if you get into debt or don’t use the perks you’re paying for ([43:17]).
• Watch for high fees, sneaky surcharges (esp. foreign airlines for “award” tickets), unnecessary loyalty-status chasing.
• “Elite status these days can be scammy, where you have to spend $20,000. I call it the hamster wheel.” – Brian ([45:17])

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The Travel Hack Competition! (Starts ~[46:40])

Judged by audience applause on:

• 1. Cost savings
• 2. Exclusivity
• 3. Consideration of fellow travelers

1. Nikki’s Hack: Semi-Private Jet Service for Less

   • JSX flights: $625 seat NYC–Miami, minimal hassle, pets allowed ([50:06])
   • “It is such a flex… but… becoming more affordable to at least some of us.” ([47:42])

2. Stacey’s Hack: Packing Cubes

   • “I am a big believer in never checking a bag… packing cubes compress your clothes into these little bricks. [They] keep you organized, and you can always change your plans.” ([51:46])
   • Audience favorite and winner!

3. Max’s Hack: Never Pay Seating Fees for Families

   • “My hack is to never pay that fee… there's a rule that the airlines have to try to seat you together…” ([53:52])
   • Relies on staff/other passengers to ensure family sits together.

4. Brian’s Hack: Let AI Work For You

   • Use AI-enabled price tracking (e.g. Autopilot, Google Flights, AutoSlash for rental cars) to automatically rebook at lower rates when prices drop ([54:37]).
   • “Whenever you book, stop assuming that that's the best price you're ever going to get. Let technology continuously check and then rebook and put money back in your pocket.” ([55:37])

Audience Votes ([57:14–58:44]):

• Surprise winner: Stacey’s packing cubes, for universal cost savings and keeping travel flexible and stress-free.
• Brian’s high-tech hack also highly applauded.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I'm not envious of what people are paying for their summer travels.” – Nikki Eckstein ([06:14])
• “You take fewer trips and you spend more on them is what most people are doing.” – Nikki ([15:38])
• “To me, figuring out how to use points is like a crossword puzzle.” – Brian Kelly ([29:24])
• “The game changes. The game will constantly change, but I assure you, it is still available for play.” – Brian ([30:52])
• “Being on the offense is how you win at the points game.” – Brian ([35:58])
• “You basically drive right up to the hangar… The TSA experience is you walk through a scanner on your way up the aircraft door. That's it. And they're very friendly.” – Nikki ([50:58])
• “AI… fighting robots with robots.” – Panel, concluding Brian’s hack ([58:09])

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Useful Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Host Introduction & Context | 01:05–03:03 | | State of Summer Travel Economy / Nikki Joins | 05:14–06:03 | | Shoulder Season & Travel Trends | 06:14–07:09 | | Crisis Stack: COVID, Wars, Oil Prices, Delays | 07:34–10:02 | | The K-Shaped Economy in Travel / Premiumization | 10:22–15:00 | | Travel Hacks & Google Flights Tips | 16:26–19:06 | | Cruises as a Value Proposition | 19:15–20:39 | | Brian Kelly’s Points Guy Origin Story | 23:17–29:55 | | Credit Card Wars & Strategic Points Advice | 29:55–36:20 | | Traveling Smarter with AI & New Tech | 54:37–56:20 | | Travel Hack Competition | 46:40–58:44 |

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Takeaways for Summer 2026 Travelers

• Be flexible—avoid peak times and keep plans loose where possible.
• Use tech: Google Flights, price trackers, and AI tools are musts.
• For big spenders: semi-private jets and luxury cruises have become (oddly) competitive with land-based first-class and hotels.
• For everyone else: Packing efficiently could be the most universally valuable “hack” of all.
• The points/miles game is not dead—just more advanced. Pay attention, use transferable points, and actively monitor for best deals.
• Don’t get sucked into the status hamster wheel; optimize for flexibility and value, not loyalty.

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Resources and Further Reading

• ThePointsGuy.com – Brian Kelly’s full site, updated points advice.
• Travel + Leisure’s Travel Advisor List – For finding reputable human agents ([17:57]).
• Point Me, Seats Aero, AutoSlash, AirHelp – For award and price tracking tips.

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Language & Tone

The entire panel keeps things humorous, relatable, and practical—peppered with self-deprecating jabs, inside travel jokes, and a commitment to demystifying the “secrets” of smarter travel for listeners at any budget level.

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“Let’s all make the skies a little more friendly together.” – Stacey Vanek Smith ([01:55])

Transcript

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[Max Chaffkin]

Hey, everybody's business listeners. I'm Max Chaffkin.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And I'm Stacey Vanek Smith.

[Max Chaffkin]

And we have a special treat for you. We hosted a live show at the Ludlow House in Lower Manhattan a couple days ago where we talked about the current state of summer travel.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, it is a little bit bleak out there. Stuff is changing all the time. People are stressed. But here at Everybody's Business, we really did get the best of the best to help you navigate your summer travel plans, including Bloomberg's very own travel czar. Actual title, Nikki Eckstein.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah, I've gone back and forth. I keep thinking that's a joke, but it's not.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

No, it's not a joke.

[Max Chaffkin]

And I love it. And of course, the one and only, the super saver himself, Brian Kelly, AKA the points guy. Stacy. He was throwing so many ideas. I was regretting not having a notepad with me because there were so many good ideas.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, there was. There is no lack of information, no lack of tips, no lack of tricks. So, yes, get out your pencil and paper or your phone or whatever you use to take notes, and let's all make the skies a little more friendly together.

[Max Chaffkin]

Enjoy. So, without further ado, the host of Bloomberg businessweek's Everybody's Business, Max Chavkin and Stacey Vanek Smith. Hello, Ludlow House. Nice to see you all. How's everybody doing? Stacy. I cannot believe they let us into this place. It's like, really lucky.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Into the Ludlow House.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah, it's nice.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

We were technically on the list.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's true.

[Brian Kelly]

We were not on the list.

[Max Chaffkin]

I am Max Chavkin.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

For those who don't know, I'm Stacey Vanek Smith and this is Everybody's business from Bloomberg Business Week. Thank you.

[Max Chaffkin]

Very natural. Some of you have probably heard of our podcast, but for those who haven't, we have a weekly show where we try to demystify the world of business, money, and economics. We are our show. Stacey. I like to think of it as the friend in your group chat that knows about business stuff.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes. We try to, like, answer questions, clarify things, make connections. Business and economics, it's all around us. It impacts our lives whether we want it to or not, especially when it comes to things like travel.

[Max Chaffkin]

Early May, this is the time we thought. This is when everybody is starting to think about the summer. What are they going to? Where are they going to go? Where are they going to fly? And how much is it going to cost? And the reality is it's bad. But we've got two great guests to talk about that. Bloomberg travel czar Nikki Eckstein. She's going to sort of unpack this frustrating travel moment. And then, Stacy, I know you're excited about this.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes. We've got Brian Kelly, AKA the points guy. I don't think my dad has ever been as excited about a person I've talked to ever in my life.

[Max Chaffkin]

We texted Stacey's dad backstage with a video from Brian, and he was completely freaking out. I was like, what did he say? Tpg?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Oh, yeah.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

He was like, you're talking to tpg. And I was like, what? Yeah, long time devotee. As are many of us.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay. And so we'll talk to them. We'll have some questions, then we're gonna have a game. But before we get to all of that. Yes, first off question. Who has a trip booked this summer?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Show of hands. Okay, now another show of hands. How many of the people who have trips booked this summer are nervous those plans might change? Okay, so people are pretty confident in this crowd. Now, a last question. How many people in the audience are happy with the price they paid? How many of you are happy with the price you paid for the thread? No one is happy.

[Max Chaffkin]

I saw Anna.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

One person.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

One person was happy. That might be Brian, though. The point guy is happy with the price he paid.

[Max Chaffkin]

All right, let's get into it. Let's bring up Nikki. Nikki Eckstein. She should be joining us here. She is. She's walking up. Bloomberg's travels are. I actually didn't realize that, Nikki, that is your, like, official title. That's what it says on your business cards.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It does. It says czar.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Guys, Bloomberg's business cards don't actually have our title.

[Max Chaffkin]

I know, but if it did, it would. It would say travel czar.

[Nikki Eckstein]

That is actually my title, Travel czar. I always salute when I say it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I don't know why I feel you should salute a czar.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I imagine it wasn't my, like, invention of a title. Bloomberg has czars, which is kind of a funny thing. But yes, I'm the travel czar at Bloomberg.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

All right, well, seems like a good gig.

[Max Chaffkin]

First question I want to ask you, Nikki, is like, where are you on travel? I mean, you are the czar. This is what you do for a living. How are you? What is your plan for this summer and sort of, how are you feeling about it?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Oh, Max, that's such a cute question. I'm having a baby in July, so completely exonerated from summer travel this year. I am medically not cleared to fly beyond the end of May and I won't be back at it until September. So this is a hilarious time for me to be the person who's talking about summer travel. What I can say is that I am not envious of what people are paying for their summer travels. And actually, I am right on trend with summer travel by traveling in what we call the shoulder seasons. So traveling in May and September as opposed to like the peak summer months is usually a way to save money. But I don't know. Europe is already completely mobbed with Americans. I have colleagues in the Amalfi coast right now and in the Greek islands and they are packed to the gills with American travelers. So shoulder season is a very known hack at this point. And I am joining that movement by

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

definition, also potentially joining the staycation movement.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Also joining the staycation movement. This is Drew, how much like what

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

kinds of things have been changing? Travel is it. Obviously we're eating in. We're going into month three of the attack on Iran and oil prices being so high and flights even starting to get canceled and jet fuel prices going up. How much is that changing things right now?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Well, you have to remember that this is just like the latest thing that travel businesses are contending with in a many years long series of events that started with COVID If you go back to 2019, travel was at this all time high in 2019. The numbers everywhere were record setting. And then 2020 shut the entire world. We don't need to rehash that territory that we all still remember too well.

[Max Chaffkin]

But then you had the revenge travel.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Then you had revenge travel and it was a little crazy. But when the conflict opened up between Russia and Ukraine, the demand for Long haul travel was really impacted because airlines had to take longer routes to avoid the airspace. It's a lot of the same stuff that we've been rehashing now with the Iran war, although this kind of brings it all up to a different degree. But if you think about, like, the number of big catastrophic things that have affected travel over the last few years, it's been one after another. We've not had stable, you know, a long stable period for a while.

[Max Chaffkin]

I feel like when you're talking about this, you kind of have to acknowledge the Trump of it all. So I wrote in our notes, Trump related crises. So. And that kind of starts, I think, with the. Maybe it doesn't start, but probably the most important thing you alluded to it is the war in Iran, which has done two things as far as I can tell. One of them is it's totally messed up, traveled Middle East. Dubai, of course, is a major international hub. When you have bombs flying, that's gonna make things difficult. And then prices, I mean, the prices have been out of control, I guess. I haven't mentioned those lines, the TSA lines. That was another thing. What am I forgetting?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Shut down. I mean, that's like a lot of the big stuff. It also, I think people feel like there's a lot of shifting geopolitical things happening. So that can also complicate travel.

[Nikki Eckstein]

This is like a. But wait, there's more, right? Because think about Doge slashing budgets just a year ago. That was the beginning of all of our FAA issues.

[Max Chaffkin]

Oh, right.

[Nikki Eckstein]

The New York.

[Max Chaffkin]

The famous, like eight hour delay at Newark.

[Nikki Eckstein]

That wasn't good news for anybody. The DHS shutdown obviously has impacted security situations throughout US Airports this year. But also, don't forget the situation that unfolded in Venezuela right over New Year's, which left so many people that I knew in my circle stranded in different Caribbean islands. They were all trying to get back after winter break as school was restarting, you know, after the holidays, and. And people got trapped. They were stranded, sleeping in airports for three, four, five nights, sleeping in airport.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I was like, can you call it trapped if it's a Caribbean island?

[Nikki Eckstein]

It sounded nice on the surface. Sounds. But it was pretty terrible for a lot of people. And there were a lot of travel expenses that people lost out on that were not recouped by travel insurance. It's been a pretty messy couple of months or year or year and change or five years.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So one of the things that we talk about a lot on the show is what they call the K shaped Economy that is that the wealthy part of the economy is getting wealthier and wealthier and the less wealthy part of the economy is like getting less and less wealthy. Now, you have explored both parts of the K in your job. What are some of the ways that people can, I guess, for the upper part of the K and the lower part of the K, get around some of these complications because it does seem like obstacles are coming at you all the time. But you have looked into some of these hacks.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Okay, so we want to do hacks. All right, Let me just like say one thing, which is that the K shaped economy is very real in travel, but is also idiosyncratic in travel. There's a lot of data that goes to show that the last expense that people cut from their budgets now post pandemic is travel.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Really?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Yes. So as much as there are a lot of different industries, including retail and restaurants, et cetera, that have been really, really hit hard by the kind of radical two ends of the K shaped economy in travel, it's a little bit different. What we're seeing is a bifurcation of luxury and ultra luxury. And everybody who doesn't normally pay for luxury has to figure out how to come up to that basic level. That's now where things start.

[Max Chaffkin]

So this kind of gets back to. I promise you, we will talk about ways to have better travel, but this is another area where travel has been tough. Because anytime I'm in an airport now, I see these lounges and I am not a lounge person. I don't know about you all. I will not darken the door of an airport lounge, like, on principle, unless forced, basically. Yeah, yeah, kind of on principle. But part of the reason is that, like, you look at the line and you're like, wait, maybe is it a

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

conferenceable or just you don't want to pay to go into the lounge.

[Nikki Eckstein]

It's all the things. But because Max flies spirit.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I see Max flies well, blue spirit on rising.

[Max Chaffkin]

I see lines on the lounge and I think to myself, what are you doing? You're waiting.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Have you been into a lounge?

[Max Chaffkin]

But, like, it does seem like there's overcrowding in these lounges.

[Nikki Eckstein]

There is definitely overcrowding in the lounges. First of all, there's a lot more lounges, but there's also a lot more people who can get into them. You can also pay your way into a lot of lounges. And so things that used to be properly premium and VIP have been diluted to the fact where, like, you just pay 50 bucks and you're in the door. That's no longer luxury. It's an expectation among many people that they can just pay those 50 bucks and get in the door or. Or have the right credit card in your wallet and get in the door. And so these are no longer exclusive spaces. And that's made them less appealing for a lot of people who used to use them. Right, that's what I'm saying. The Spirit crowd.

[Max Chaffkin]

Well, and that's the other thing. The sort of dominance of these big carriers. They've done very well. Right. With getting people to pay more money to sit in the front of the plane and extracting more money from consumers. And the result is they've killed my favorite airline. Nikki Spirit Air RIP to a real one. It is very sad for those of us who appreciated the banana colored airplane.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Okay, I pulled a couple of stats because I do think that these are stories that are really well told in numbers. Since January 2020, the number of scheduled business class seats on domestic US flights has gone up by 27%.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

What does scheduled business class seats mean?

[Nikki Eckstein]

That means that the number of available seats in the front of the plane on routes that are flying across the US has gone up by 27%.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So airline. So planes are putting in more seats.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Yeah.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So they're like luxury loading their plane.

[Nikki Eckstein]

They're luxury loading the plane. That's exactly right. At the same time, you know, there's a price for that. The economy seats are coming out. Right. So those premium seats are growing three times faster than economy seats because there's more seats overall. Like airlines are getting more planes. There's more planes to fly, there's more seats, there's more people in the skies. But the business class seats and the premium seats are growing three times faster than the economy seats. And then we've all heard like, you know, United's getting these new planes, they're going to have all of these different features, basic business, blah, blah, blah. We'll talk about that later, I'm sure. But for every one of these new planes, they're taking out 65 economy seats and putting in 30 premium seats. So this just gives you a sense of what's going on. What's really interesting is the lower part

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

of the cave is squeezed. So at least flying the lower part of the K is squeezed. There are just fewer options now. Spirit's gone. Yes. Sorry, Max. And this is happening also in hotels.

[Nikki Eckstein]

In hotels it's happening too. People don't think about this as much.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Wait, what does that mean? Describe this situation in a Hotel version.

[Nikki Eckstein]

When hotels get renovated, they're oftentimes ripping out the smallest rooms, knocking down walls between them and creating bigger ones. Because there's more demand for suites and for villas these days than there is for basic rooms. It's not enough to stay at the IT hotel anymore. You've got to stay in a suite, you've got to have a terrace, you've got to have an ocean view. You got to be able to brag about it all. And so hotels are actually retooling their footprints to get rid of those entry level rooms and put in more suites.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It feels like things are getting more and more out of reach if you're just a normal person. Like, what if you just love to travel but you don't have luxury travel money?

[Nikki Eckstein]

You take fewer trips and you spend more on them is what most people are doing.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And now spirit's gone.

[Nikki Eckstein]

And now spirit's gone.

[Max Chaffkin]

Little known fact, they do have a business class in spirit. It's called the big seat.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

That's not true.

[Max Chaffkin]

I think it may just be like one seat.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Also, I do appreciate that you keep talking about them in the present tense. Like, there's like. If you're. Are you manifesting that they come back.

[Max Chaffkin]

I am.

[Nikki Eckstein]

The wound is fresh, Nikki.

[Max Chaffkin]

We're gonna have a whole segment at the end of this show where we compete to give the best travel hacks. And I know you've saved one really good one for them, but as you are talking to friends and family and trying to give them suggestions of how, whatever to make the most of their travel dollar, how to deal with some of these issues. Why don't you hit us with some of your suggestions?

[Nikki Eckstein]

You got it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, we want hacks.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Okay. So I'm not a person who plans my travels with AI. Not yet, probably not ever. But Google Flights is a really, really good product that helps you find cheap fares. And you can talk to it like you would talk to ChatGPT to give it parameters like, help me find a cheap flight within a three hour flight radius of New York or, you know, whatever stipulations you want to give it. Just for some examples of things that I found on it today, Memorial Day flights from New York to Nantucket were down 58% over there from their average prices. $233 per person to Nantucket, same weekend to Hilton head Island was $187. Like, these are super.

[Brian Kelly]

So do you.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

What is this just like regular Google or what is this?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Flight deals.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Google flight deals. Like, interesting.

[Nikki Eckstein]

That's what it's called.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And you just talk to it and you say, hey, I want to go to Nantucket.

[Max Chaffkin]

That is awesome.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Find me a place where the prices are really good for this upcoming Memorial Day weekend. Here's the hack, though. It's not just finding the cheap flight on Google flight deals. It's then taking that flight that you've identified that's cheap and booking it with a travel agent. Why? The travel agent doesn't cost you anything to use. And it is so crucially important to have somebody that you can call in the event of a cancellation or something goes wrong in the middle of your trip.

[Max Chaffkin]

You're talking about an actual human being, not, like, claws.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Actual human being. I had a flight canceled.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I feel like I don't even know how to find a travel agent anymore.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Oh, we gotta talk.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Okay.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I'm gonna hit up, like, my old job from more than a decade ago. But Travel and Leisure, where I worked for a long, long time, runs a wonderful list of travel advisors. That's like, depending on where you want to go, you can find somebody that specializes in the place that you want to go to. And that's. I still, as an alum of that magazine who used to edit that product. That's still where I find travel advisors who are not, like, already in my network. I would recommend that. But yeah, I had a flight canceled that left me stranded in Milan pretty recently, like, just a couple of weeks ago. And I called Bloomberg's travel desk. I was traveling for work, and they were the ones that got me rebooked on the next flight out. Like, having that human support when things go wrong is critical right now.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

How much does that cost if you're not going through work? Like, how much does it cost to hire a travel agent?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Nothing, usually.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

How is that possible?

[Nikki Eckstein]

They take commissions off of your hotel bookings and your flight bookings, but it doesn't cost you a penny. They have deals with the airlines and the deals and deals with hotels as well. And those deals will oftentimes at hotels anyway, get you lots of perks, like free breakfast or a room upgrade if it's available. It costs you nothing to a suite.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, we gotta bring up Brian, but give us and we'll bring you back, Nikki. But before we do, give us one more suggestion here, one more travel hack.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I'm gonna say this might be the summer to entertain a cruise.

[Max Chaffkin]

You know, I haven't gotten the Hanta lately.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And so I was gonna say, I mean, I guess the prices are gonna lower.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I don't think Hantavirus that one outbreak I'm hoping is contained and I'm hoping it's not like proof of something terrible that's gonna happen. Honestly, like I am not a cruiser. It's not the way that I have chosen to travel in the past. But it is so attractive at a time when hotel prices in Europe are so stratospheric. I'm talking like $2,000 a night is an easy barrier to break in prime destinations. You can pull up to those same prime destinations in a cruise ship. For a very, very luxurious ship, you might be spending 600 a night, including all of your food, including all of your water. Activity. These look at Explora. It is a very, very high end new line that's doing 30% off right now. Ritz Carlton yacht collection. It feels like you're on a yacht. It's $1,000 a night, but it comes with 24 hour room service, butlers, terraces in every suite. Every room is a suite. Like compared to what you get on land, they're good values. I know it's a thousand dollars a night. I just said that's a good value. That's the world we live in.

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[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Max. We live in a world that is really good at telling us what just happened, but not always so great at explaining why it matters.

[Max Chaffkin]

That's what we do every Friday on everybody's business each week, Stacey, we take the biggest stories in business markets and the global economy and slow them down, adding the context you need to actually understand what's going on.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And if you want even more of that reporting and insight, a Bloomberg subscription gives you unlimited access to the journalism behind those stories.

[Max Chaffkin]

Subscribe [e-mail] podcastoffer when something like this happens, like the hantavirus outbreak, what does the cruise industry do?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

They cut prices.

[Max Chaffkin]

Is that, is that right? Or like, how do they get people to, like, go back on the ship. I mean, this came up during COVID as well.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I think one isolated incident is not gonna change anything for the industry. The cruise industry has been so resilient, despite everything that it went through. And I don't think that they're feeling pressured by this one kind of anomalous thing that has happened now. If hantavirus started showing up on cruise ships all over the world, we'd have a completely different story. And I don't wanna think about it.

[Max Chaffkin]

Please don't jinx us, Nikki. All right, we will send you back into the audience. We'll bring up the points guy.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes, absolutely.

[Max Chaffkin]

And then. But you got to stick around, Nikki.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes.

[Max Chaffkin]

Nikki Eckstein, everybody.

[Brian Kelly]

Hello. Hello.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Hello. Brian Kelly, welcome.

[Brian Kelly]

Thank you for having me.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Excellent. Thank you for being here.

[Brian Kelly]

I'm an optimist. I'll just tell you that I have a more upbeat view of things, although, you know, certainly there's a lot of drama out there.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, I'm excited to hear this.

[Brian Kelly]

Yes.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay. I feel like for people, Brian, who don't know you and who maybe have. Maybe they've seen your website, the points guy, but give us your origin story. I mean, you are this, like. You're basically like a superhero of figuring out, like, which credit cards and which frequent flyer programs and making the most of it. How. What is your origin story?

[Brian Kelly]

My story? Yeah. My story starts the year was 1995. I was 12 years old, and my dad had a job as a consultant traveling across the country. And I was one of those kids in the 90s.

[Max Chaffkin]

This is.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, early 90s. I was on AOL Prodigy. I was a little hacker, and my dad actually said he had to start booking his own travel. And he paid me $10 per flight to book, and he thought it was very complicated. But Travelocity had just come out, so I was able to book his flights in, like, a minute. And he was paying me $10. So that was like my first side hustle.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Your first job.

[Brian Kelly]

I started booking my dad's travel, and then one day, he said, I have all these frequent flyer miles on American and US Airways. I'm one of four kids. Our trips growing up were car rides to the Outer Banks. I grew up outside of Philadelphia, but I always wanted to travel the world. And I had just read the book the Firm by John Grisham, where a lot of it takes place in the Cayman Islands. So here I am at age 12, and I'm like, I don't want to go to Florida. That's basic the little queen in me was coming out.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You wanted to go to the land of shelters.

[Brian Kelly]

I wanted to go to the Caribbean.

[Max Chaffkin]

Cayman. I didn't want to go to Shells. The land of shelter Corporations.

[Brian Kelly]

Exactly. Offshore finance is like a big kink. So I called up. He had U.S. air and American miles. I have three siblings. I figured out how to get my dad and three siblings nonstop Philly to Grand Cayman. My mom and I, I booked using his American miles. And then I had to figure out where to stay. Hotels in Grand Cayman are exorbitant. And there was a new little site called VRBO that had just launched. So I booked us a doctor in New Jersey, had this cute two bedroom villa on the beach. It was like $1,200. And to this doctor, he was just happy he was getting people to rent his villa. We were on the beach in Rum Point, which, if you ever go to the Cayman Islands, you've got to go to Rum Point. It is this idyllic northern little cape. So I end up booking this whole trip. I had a panic attack the night before. Once again, I'm 12 years old, planning an international trip. But I arrive and my dad gave me the biggest hug. He was like, this is incredible. We had the most unbelievable week. Our family together. Now, mind you, my dad was traveling a ton for business, so he wasn't home a lot. So every year our bonding was using his points to take our family on a trip. So we do Barbados, Cayman. So this is all in the 90s. My dad and I were points people. I had no idea that there was a world of people doing this. It wasn't until I went to college, University of Pittsburgh. I become student body president. I study abroad. And then one day, my US Airways account was gold. And I remember I was like, I have gold status and I have no income and I'm getting upgraded. And back in 2003, gold status was. I mean, you get upgraded nonstop. So I Google or dogpile, whatever the search was back then. And I found flyer talk. And flyer talk, for those who don't know, is like Reddit for hardcore frequent flyer. It is a community that people.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah, people are your people.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, they're my people. It was like finding alien life. I was like, wow, there's people out there doing what I do. Like, my dad and I, we would cut like cereal boxes, we'd have our family members send in cereal box tops because you used to be able to get American miles. So I dove deep into that world, moved to New York in 06, start working in finance in 07. Long story short, my job is at Morgan Stanley, traveling around the US Convincing computer science grads to work at Morgan Stanley. Now you can imagine the years. 0708, the economy collapses. Not a soul, not computer science. When Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Bloomberg, who I would compete against, no one wanted to work at Morgan Stanley, which was, you know, in finance. But they told me, we have to hire these tech grads, so spend whatever you have to do. So I had my corporate amex, no expense limit. And I had to wine and dine and fly every week, 50 students in for interviews, all on my corporate card. And I called up one day and I said, can I get the points for this? And they were like, Mr. Kelly, you can, but it's $95 a year. And I'm like, wait, hold up a second. I'm spending like $100,000 a month because I'm paying for all of the students hotels. When they came and interviewed. I'm paying for the intern lunches. And I'm a points person. So there's so many ways that I was taking all the interns. We would only eat at restaurants. There are special restaurants where you can get extra points. To this day, it's called Rewards Network. We were only eating at this random Brazilian churrasco Korea in Times Square. The interns were like, we don't want Brazilian food again. You're gonna eat Brazilian. It's cultural. Anyway, so I start banking tons and tons of miles. I'm not making a lot of money because I'm in HR during the crisis, but I lived this unbelievable life flying around the world in first class. All my friends were like, you do realize, like, being 27 and flying, you know, I flew with Madonna one weekend, you know, first class to London. She was amazing. That's a story for another time.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Really?

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah. I thought it was Rachel Zoe at first. And here's a hack. Here's a hack. That's very important. Never take your sleeping pill before the plane takes off. Cause we're flying to London. I take my Ambien because it's a short flight to London in the summer and my Ambien's kicking in. I'm putting my bag in the front and I can't curse. But like, Madonna walks on the plane and is sitting in the British Airways first class seat right in front of me. Mind you, as a gay boy in the 90s, the Immaculate Collection was my jam. And I'm just. I look at my boyfriend at the time, I'm like, am I hallucinating? It's Madonna. And she was really cool in the morning. I talked to her briefly, and she called me sweetie. So that was like a life highlight. But that's, like, what points were able to get for me. So in 2010, I started the points guy was not even a blog. It was a travel agency where people would pay me 50 bucks and I would plan them trips. So that was just my way to make extra money because I wasn't making it in my hr.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's like what your dad was paying you to do, except it was the same business.

[Brian Kelly]

Exactly. So I just started doing it for other people. To me, figuring out how to use points is like a crossword puzzle. Right. I get immense satisfaction when you crack the code. Still, 16 years later, I still love that. I still fly almost exclusively on points. And so, yeah, I started it. I started blogging a couple months later in 2010, and then it just sort of blew up about six months later. A year after my first blog post, I left Morgan Stanley to do this full time. And now we've got 150 employees and millions and millions of readers. So it's been quite a ride.

[Max Chaffkin]

There have been, and we at BusinessWeek have written about this. There are these, like, credit card wars, right? So the. Maybe I'm getting my history wrong, but you had the Chase Sapphire Reserve, and then there are a bunch of other cards, the Amex Platinum, and they're all competing furiously, basically to attract, I think, people like you or people who are kind of points aware. Maybe not. They're not full on points. Maxers, points.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Curious.

[Max Chaffkin]

I'm kind of curious. How do you take advantage of that competition now as like, a consumer, as somebody, you know, who maybe isn't at your level of points maxing but would one day like to get there?

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah. So hack 101 is just. You've got to get into the points game. It is not over. Don't tell yourself that. Oh, you know, I do not lie to you. When I started in 2010, there was a whole narrative. Points are over. People literally said to me in 2010,

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

like, they're not worth what?

[Brian Kelly]

Points aren't worth anything anymore.

[Max Chaffkin]

Blackout dates.

[Brian Kelly]

And I'm like, that's when I went into the media, and I was like, all these bozos in the media, you just don't know how to play the game. And the game changes. The game will constantly change, but I assure you, it is still available for play. So back to your point. The banks will give you thousands of dollars for free. Now, mind you, there are 10 solid banks with each, five solid cards minimum each. There are no shortage of credit cards out there. If you have good credit and you should actually thank yourself if you don't have a lot of credit cards right now. That's a great thing because you can reap thousands of dollars and get a card.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

How many credit cards do you have?

[Brian Kelly]

I have 30 credit cards and over 800 credit score. Because what you learn is that the more credit you have and the less you use, that's your debt to credit ratio, the higher your score goes. So by getting more credit cards now mind you, you have to pay them off in full every month. If you're paying interest on any of these high interest cards, you're going to lose the value of the points. But the banks are in such competition for your business. You know, today Chase Sapphire Reserve is going to give you 150,000 points for getting that card. Those 150,000 points minimally are worth $3,000. You can even get much more when transferring to other partners. Plus that card. You may say it's got $900 fee or $800 fee. The fee is not actually that high when you get all the other perks that come along with it. And Chase even will let you get that card if you have the Sapphire preferred. They actually just changed the rules a couple months ago saying we want people to have multiple cards. So even if you had a sign up bonus on their 95 card, Chase openly encourages you to also get it. They need more people to sign up so you can get amex cards, Chase cards now with bilt you can earn points on mortgage and rent, which is unprecedented. When I started the points guy in 2010, earning points with no fee for rent, I would have told you you were crazy. You can do that today with bilt, no annual fee and no even if your credit card charge or your landlord's charges for credit cards, BILT does not process like a credit card. They get a direct deposit or a Venmo or a check. So when, yes, there is inflation when it comes to redeeming points. I was in Berlin this weekend to Fly Delta was 1 million miles and Delta is pretty bad for that. So there are certain programs don't go with the big US Airlines hack. Number two I'll give is pay attention to foreign frequent flyer programs. Air France has 60,000 mile one way business class awards all summer long to Europe. The same exact flight on Delta is 500,000 points. So it's about knowing which programs to interact with and not just if you love Delta, great airline. But do not get the Delta card and put all your spend on Delta. Instead, get an AMEX card, which you can transfer to Delta or 30 other partners. So get credit cards with big signup bonuses, but focus and put all of your spend on the cards that allow you to transfer to multiple partners. And you know, in 2010, when I started out, I had just had to have this knowledge from years of flyer talk to figure out how to do it. Now there are tools like point Me, which will actually, you can tell it what point you have. You want to go to Rome on this date, and it will actually tell you the exact way to transfer for the least amount of miles. It syncs up with tons of different airlines. There's another tool, seats Aero. Amazing. It'll give you an entire year's worth of availability. So if you have family in Paris and you're flexible on what days to go, you can click one button and have the entire year of JFK in Newark to Paris and sort by premium, economy, economy, and then pick and choose where you go. You go one way, Air France, where it's cheap, you find another way. That's JetBlue. JetBlue's partners with Qatar, which is a transfer partner of all the credit cards. It sounds complex, but once you start doing this, you save thousands of dollars. And final tip that I really have to get out is one of the best changes of the pandemic was that frequent flyer programs let you cancel free of charge. So let me explain this to you. When you book an award ticket on most airlines, it's like booking a free, fully refundable ticket. Some airlines might charge you 50 bucks to get your miles back. But in general, all the US Programs so you can book placeholder awards say you got to go to a wedding In Europe, it's 200,000 United miles. Okay, you could book that, but as the price drops, you can rebook it when it gets lower and lower. And the airlines. A trend that you'll see when you start booking awards is in the week of travel, if there's open seats on the plane, they drop to the saver level. Coming back from Berlin this week, when I was booking it, it was 200,000 miles, but it was 68,000, which is the cheapest amount three days before because the airlines need to fill every seat and they hope that you don't keep checking. So keep checking and reprice that award and get your miles back. Or when Air France opens up 60k, you just cancel your United award and get all those miles back. So once you start having these miles that can transfer into all different programs, you, you start learning to fly one way on one airline. And this also works for when you're stranded, when the airlines cancel your flights and there's a mile long line. I have never once waited in those lines. The second I think my flight's going to get canceled. Even if it's not, I immediately book using points on two other carriers that day. If I really have to get out. If my flight ends up getting canceled, which it will, I've already booked the last remaining seats before you can even wait in line to get it. Because if I don't need those seats, I'll cancel before departure and get it back for free. So being on the offense is how you win at the points game.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I feel like I should be taking a lot of notes.

[Brian Kelly]

Well, I think this is recorded so I think we'll be good.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

No, this is good. My question is this. So 12 year old you booking this trip for your family and kind of using the system that eventually you developed into your career, could you do that? Like what would if you were 12 right now, could you do the same thing? Cause it sounds like I think your brain works a little differently than mine. I feel like you have like spreadsheets in your brain and it's like the points go back and forth. I just feel like quite sometimes overwhelmed by all of the points and moving things around and stuff like that. So is it possible to do it if it's not like a full time job?

[Brian Kelly]

It is. There are companies that you could pay like that. Point me has a VIP concierge you can pay, I think it's $150 a ticket and so you can pay other people to do it. And paying someone 150 to get a business class ticket versus paying the 9,000 it costs today. It kills me when people pay these full fare and a lot of people are paying that price. But like I said before, those tools like point me and seats arrow, they're not that hard to learn. And I'm telling you, once you take that little step to invest in these tools on how it's done, it really is not that complex. But even if you don't want to do the points transfer game by transferring your Chase points to Hyatt and booking a free stay. You know all the, all the credit card companies now let you book any flight at a set redemption chase. If you have the sapphire card. They have what's called points boost so you can get up to 2 cents per point when redeeming for certain flights. And it's like $0.01 minimum. So even if you don't want to do the wizardry high level getting 6 cents per point, you can at least be getting, you know, one or two cents by just buying your flights through a credit card agency.

[PJ Vogt]

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[Max Chaffkin]

We should bring Nikki back up here. We are going to have a little bit of time for questions as Nikki makes her way back to the stage, gets set up, start thinking. What do you want to ask Nikki, Brian, Stacy or me? I can't imagine what we would have to say, but we can try. I can tell you about the spirit snacks or whatever. Yes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I want to hear about the big

[Max Chaffkin]

seat, big front seat.

[Brian Kelly]

And actually, you know, I knew you

[Max Chaffkin]

were going to be excited about it.

[Brian Kelly]

I'm going to stand up for Spirit Airlines. I've flown them several times. They serve a purpose. You know, it's like, rip, they're on time, they're cheap. If you know how to play the game and you know, don't bring luggage and stuff. It served a purpose. I never had a bad experience with Spirit. Truly.

[Max Chaffkin]

Ditto. Okay. There should be a microphone floating around. Okay.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

In the back.

[Max Chaffkin]

Yeah. So if you have a question, raise your hand and we. Can I see a hand raised over there?

[Audience Member]

Okay, two questions, sorry. One is, is it dumb to pay for a credit card that gives you lounge access? And then I'm curious how the private jet economy kind of fits into this because we were talking about how luxury's gotten more like everyone's flying luxury, but I feel like I'm also seeing a lot more people flying private. And I'm like, have the luxury travelers gone even more luxury? And so now it's like everyone's moving up. I'm just sort of curious how that plays in.

[Brian Kelly]

I'll answer the lounge one and maybe I don't know if you have a perspective on the private jet travel. It is, it depends how much you're going to use that lounge access. So with most of the lounges these days, I would put a very modest $50 value of going into that lounge. Most of the credit card lounges you have open bar, decent food. Some, like the Chase Sapphire lounges, have free facials for any member. So the one at LaGuardia is beautiful. The Capital One Lounge at JFK, by the way, I'll just say for anyone wanting to get a credit card, especially New Yorkers, Capital One venture X is $395. That card gives you $300 in free travel a year. So it's a $95 a year card every year. Capital One gives you 10,000 miles just for holding the card. At the very minimum, those 10,000 miles are worth $100. So if you do the math with me, the Capital One Venture x pays you $5 a year to get lounge access to all of their lounges. So if there's one entry level premium card that I can recommend unequivocally, even if you never even go to the lounge, you're making out ahead. It's Capital One Venture X. They have a great in their lounge at JFK Terminal Force 24 7. So when I was flying to Peru and my Latam flight was delayed five hours, that lounge was open, which was like probably worth a thousand dollars to me not having to be out with my two children in the the terminal. As far as the other perks in these cards, you know, just how much are you going to go into the lounge, how much you're going to use it? They have high annual fees. But these perks that you can get from these cards can absolutely pay streaming. There's other memberships. You know, just sit there and do the math, but never just take the $900 that the platinum card is a year and say, well, that's just 900. No, because you can actually get very easily more than that in value before you even take into account the lounge access. And I'll just also add having these cards kind of what Nikki mentioned is especially the premium cards, you get another level of customer service, you get protections. With the Sapphire reserve card, you can get $10,000 in travel coverage. So if you get sick or a loved one does, you have built in coverage just by using that card. That Capital One Venture X card has coverage. My son messed up a $1,200 chair by using marker on it. And vandalism is part of their purchase protection. I got 12. Even if it's your own son. Luckily I didn't have to have a police report. But I swear, you know, there's. Look through the perks on these cards. There is purchase protection if you buy something online and they don't let you return it. A lot of these credit cards have return protection, which you would. So you start using a couple of these perks every year. The lounge access, they can absolutely pay. And in general, you get better customer service as well. So when you're valuing a card, there's a whole picture you need to look at than just simply the lounge access.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Okay, so I'm like really mad actually that you asked about private jets because I don't, I don't want to like get ahead of things here, but I have a hack.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, Is this your hack?

[Nikki Eckstein]

This is going to be relevant. Yeah, but we're not playing our game yet.

[Max Chaffkin]

Why don't you hold that thought, see if we have one other question. I have a question about. I appreciate all the strategy, but I am like a it's a scam first kind of mindset. So what are actually the scams to watch out for?

[Brian Kelly]

I mean, the scam is only if you get into debt. I've never. If you spend responsibly, there is no scam. You have to, you know, maybe pay attention and make sure with. If you get a card with perks that'll pay for your Apple tv, you must take one minute and change your billing to that to actually get the perk. So if you, if you're not willing to do the bare minimum and like read the benefits of a card and then change like that, that to me would be the, the scam of it all.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So, yeah, what these feel scam adjacent.

[Brian Kelly]

The what?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Sometimes the fees.

[Brian Kelly]

So the scam would be transferring to loyalty programs that then charge crazy fees. So like you might see British airways has like 60,000 points to Europe, but now a lot of them are raising their surcharges to crazy amounts. Especially with the, you know, increase in jet fuel, not only airfare, the cost to buy a ticket, but the fees attached to award tickets are going up. That can feel scammy. Especially if it's like an economy flight with $900 fee when you can buy it for 800. So you do have to be particular. Not all programs are created equal. But I do stand on my tip of transferring to the foreign frequent flyer programs. The Air France Air Canada aeroplane will charge you about half of what United often will. Now, one other thing I'll mention because the airlines hate that Amex and Chase and Bilt are Taking all the business. So the airlines are saying, well, we're going to gatekeep our award inventory and only give it to our co brand cardholders. So I would never recommend spending all of your money on an airline co brand because you're going to earn that one airline's currency, whereas you could be earning much more valuable currency that transfers. But you might want to hold open an airline co brand like with the United. They have different, even no annual fee versions because that will give you access to a whole new level of inventory. And just I would say on the scam thing is elite status. Elite status these days can be scammy, where you have to spend $20,000. I call it the hamster wheel. I topped off the hamster wheel years ago. I don't care about elite status.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Flex.

[Brian Kelly]

I will fly the best well, I spend sparkly. I spend sparkly on my credit cards and I have enough transferable points where mission by mission, I choose which points I'm going to use for which trip I want to go on to fly the best flight, the best route. When you're stuck in the airline hamster wheel of only flying Delta to get your Delta status and then you want to go to the Maldives and you can't fly Emirates because all your miles are with Delta and you realize that your millions of miles are two tickets instead. If you would have spent on Amex, you could have 20 tickets. I mean, it's that stark sometimes. So when you go all in and don't think about your strategy and spend on the right cards that you can end up in a situation where you're like, this wasn't really worth it.

[Max Chaffkin]

I mean, I have to say when I hear this, I feel like the scam is that you have, we have to live in a world that you have to optimize to this level.

[Brian Kelly]

What?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Just that's true.

[Brian Kelly]

You know, I want everyone to understand this is the biggest privilege in the world. No other countries like the United States when it comes to points. Europe does not have credit scotch in the world. You will never go to another points. More points, friendly country sign up bonuses in many parts of the world are max 30,000 miles. And in the United States, you can get up to 300,000. It is a bonanza here. Yes, it sounds complicated, but I need you to understand having a million options of credit cards to get is much better than having none.

[Nikki Eckstein]

It's because nobody's willing to spend on travel like Americans.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Is that right?

[Nikki Eckstein]

That is right.

[Max Chaffkin]

So, okay, so last segment here.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah.

[Max Chaffkin]

We are going to have a little game. We're going to each give you a personal travel tip. Now, I think we've all prepared. I hope, Brian, you haven't given all yours away yet, have you?

[Brian Kelly]

No, no, I'm going to be here all night, baby.

[Max Chaffkin]

Now, there are three criteria that I want the three of you and myself to think about. And I guess the audience, you will have to think about this as well because you are gonna be asked to judge the criteria. We're gonna vote based on the volume of applause. We have a decibel meter ready to go, so it's gonna be very scientific.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah. Jasmine is running the decibel meter.

[Max Chaffkin]

The criteria are as follows. So the first one is cost savings. How much is this hack gonna hit my wallet? How much is it gonna save me? The second one is exclusivity. You know what's a good hack? If everyone's got it. And the third one, and I feel like this is where it's gonna trip me up personally, is consideration of fellow travelers. Because if you are doing a hack that hurts everyone else, that's not good as well. So, Nikki, you started to give yours. Why don't you finish your hack for us?

[Nikki Eckstein]

All right, well, so let's do a little guest first before I, like, you know, show my hand. The question was about private jet travel and whether that's getting, you know, more popular or is it just a perception? I mean, yes, people would love to Instagram themselves on a private jet. It is such a flex. But it is growing and it is also becoming more affordable to at least some of us. So I asked my colleagues this morning how much they think it costs to get a seat on a private jet flying from the New York area to the Miami area. The guesses in my row, Bloomberg has this like a very open concept office. And everybody raised their hands like, trying to guess. The guesses ranged from $8,000 to $15,000. I was like, okay, we're talking about a one way seat, New York to Miami. They're like, yeah, that's probably what it costs, right?

[Max Chaffkin]

Well, yeah, you work for pursuits. Like these are, these are people with a high level of fluency in, in luxury.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Like this is.

[Nikki Eckstein]

We pedal in luxury in our row. That's our job.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

There's a watch guy.

[Nikki Eckstein]

There's a watch guy. He, he was the one that guessed 15 for the record. And then I said, okay, well how about what if you knew that the same flight, New York to Miami, if you booked it in the first class, I'm air putting air quotes around first class.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Even private jets have first class.

[Nikki Eckstein]

No, no, no, no. On United. On United. First class. Which is a joke on domestic flights, as many of us have learned.

[Max Chaffkin]

It's like. It's no better than the big seat.

[Nikki Eckstein]

It's the big seat. Okay. A flight in quote unquote, first class. On united, one way, $550. Okay, so how close do we think the private jet seat is to United? Can I confirm my colleague's answer? 15K.

[Max Chaffkin]

You said Miami area. And like, I feel like that's a trick. We're not talking about Tampa or anything like that. This is actual Miami. Miami.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Private jets don't land in commercial airports.

[Max Chaffkin]

But it's not like 300 miles away.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I'm specifically looking at a flight that lands in Opeloco, which is like the main private jet hub in Miami proper. Okay, so again, we think the private jet seat is going to be somewhere between eight and $15,000. United, one way, $550. Guess what? You can book a private jet seat for $625. Really?

[Brian Kelly]

Is that JSX?

[Nikki Eckstein]

Yes, JSX. This was something that I learned.

[Max Chaffkin]

Brian is nodding.

[Brian Kelly]

I would say the more accurate, like, that's like a regional jet basically that flies out of private airports. So it is much more easy. But you're getting like regional jet type seat. But there are like the XO jets of the world that are real private jets. And it's like 2500. You can get seats for sometimes like 20. I would say 25.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Don't rain on my parade, Brian.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, well, you're technically. I'm not saying you're wrong.

[Nikki Eckstein]

So hang on. So hang on. Let's like, let's get the full extent of this experience, though, because it's not just the seat that you get on the plane, which is like a private jet, light experience on board, but still, you know, like a business class seat going from New York to Miami. But you're flying out of either like Teterboro or Westchester airports, which are these little private jet hubs. You basically drive right up to the hangar. The TSA experience is you walk through a scanner on your way up the aircraft door. That's it. And they're very friendly.

[Brian Kelly]

They're a godsend for people with pets.

[Nikki Eckstein]

You can bring your dog. Amen for all the dinkwads out there. Do you guys know that word?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

No.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I thought that was double income. No kids.

[Brian Kelly]

With a dog.

[Nikki Eckstein]

With a dog.

[Max Chaffkin]

Oh. All right, now, audience, keep in mind that back and forth because I do think that complicated Nikki's tip, but keep that in mind. I think, Stacey, you and I should go next because our tips are bad.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

My tip is very bad.

[Max Chaffkin]

And then we'll save Brian for the last one.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

My tip is very basic.

[Max Chaffkin]

I don't know it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I'm quite embarrassed to bring this up, but this is my true travel hack. It's the only thing I got. Yes. So

[Max Chaffkin]

just spit it out.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

My travel hack is packing cubes, because I can feel the judgment. But hear me out. So I am a big believer in never checking a bag. I think it keeps you loose when things change. You never have to, like, you can run across the airport, you can change flights, you can carry everything everywhere. But I've even gone. I've never. Even when I travel for long periods of time. I went on a three week trip and I just took a little, like the smallest little roller bag and a shoulder bag. And then you can like wash your clothes in the hotel and use.

[Max Chaffkin]

Wait, what specifically do the cubes do? That's the thing I've never really understood.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

They're actually pretty good. So you can basically just. They decrease the volume. They just compress your clothes into these little bricks.

[Max Chaffkin]

Keep it organized.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

And it does keep it organized. So I am just a big believer in like staying flexible in that way. And then you can kind of change your plans and. And everything is with you all the time. Like a turtle.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay. I actually think that's a really good tip, Stacey. Yeah, I'm just gonna.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I'm gonna be clapping for it.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

That it's terrible.

[Max Chaffkin]

It is very dorky, though, is the thing.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

I know, I know it is.

[Max Chaffkin]

But my tip, and I feel like I'm gonna get some judgment for this, but I have three children and it is incredibly. Nikki, you have a couple kids. Wait, you have two? Yeah. Okay. So, you know, it's really, you know, it's kind of annoying. You book. It adds up or whatever. And now with the changes to how tickets are priced, every airline basically charges you to select a seat, which as a parent, is hectic. And you don't want your 3 year old to be in the front of the plane while you're in the back of the plane. That would be very upsetting. And my hack is to never pay that fee because I look at it. First of all, there is a rule that the airlines have to try to seat you together. And I also feel like if they don't seat me with the children.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Are you using social pressure to make people leave their seats?

[Max Chaffkin]

That is their problem, not my problem. That's that like it's a much better flight for me.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

You just like find the person sitting next to your three year old.

[Max Chaffkin]

It's never come up. I've never paid for, I've never paid to select a seat and no bad has ever befallen me.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

So people have always been, the airline

[Max Chaffkin]

does it, they may behind the scenes, maybe they juggle, I don't know. Brian, how does it work?

[Brian Kelly]

You know, it depends. The algorithm will try to put you together.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Okay.

[Brian Kelly]

So but yeah, sometimes it can get dicey. I'm glad you haven't had an issue. I do know. I mean I see it all the time that it does come up and then it's, you know, then you're depending

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

on the time of chick issues of strangers.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay, Brian, your hack.

[Brian Kelly]

So my hack is that, you know, airlines and hotels are using AI to screw us all, basically. And that's not going to change. So as consumers, we need to use AI to fight back. So when it comes to booking flights,

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

do you mean like pricing? Dynamic pricing?

[Brian Kelly]

Dynamic pricing, yeah. So what you can do, use AI. So there's a tool called with autopilot, so whenever you book a flight, it'll track and automatically keep checking constantly. And if the flight price drops, they automatically rebook it and give you a voucher. You have to do nothing. So I think tools like that, there's also Google flights or Google Hotels. Now once you book a flight or a hotel on Google Hotels, you can track it. So if that hotel drops in price and you booked a refundable fare or night rate, you can automatically, you'll get a ping alert and just go in, take two seconds, rebook it at the lower rate. There's also auto slash which does that for rental cars. Rental cars can drop dramatically. So my point to all of you is whenever you book, stop assuming that that's the best price you're ever going to get. Because let technology continuously check and then rebook and put money back in your pocket that you can then use on the things you actually love.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I'll add one to your list, which is Air Help has an app now. And if you're flying to Europe, the consumer protections for flight disruptions and cancellations in Europe are really strong. So if you're worried that like all of the chaos with fuel prices and are European airlines going to run out of fuel, is my flight going to get canceled? If you so much as track your flight with Air Help, should anything happened to that flight that would qualify you for consumer protections, AirHelp would automatically put through the claim and get you paid for it. And the only thing that you pay is like a 30% commission on the actual payout that's delivered to you. At the end of all that, you

[Max Chaffkin]

are sort of favoring a regime with fewer credit card choices, though, when you do that. Because the European didn't. I mean, didn't you hear that? These consumer protections, they're very stingy with the points.

[Nikki Eckstein]

I will say. No, Brian has a point. Brian has a lot of points. It is not fair to play this game with Brian. I'm just going to say. All right, But I will say that this. One of the silver linings of all the travel chaos that's happening right now is that Europe has always been the only region to have consumer protections like it does. And all of the mayhem that was caused when the Middle east airspace was closed is encouraging other regions around the world to say this is a reputational backlash. It if we don't have consumer protections and we really gotta get on it. And now those programs are being put in place in more places, and hopefully that will lead to an environment where even if geopolitical chaos persists, we don't get screwed as often.

[Max Chaffkin]

All right, I think it's time to vote with our applause.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

The applause meter.

[Max Chaffkin]

Okay. All right. Jasmine, is the applause meter ready?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Okay, you got a thumbs up. Nikki's travel hack of taking a private jet. And what are the criteria? We need to go one more time.

[Max Chaffkin]

One more thing, one more time. Criteria. Cost savings, exclusivity, consideration of fellow travelers.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Okay, so private jet.

[Max Chaffkin]

I love private jet.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

It's pretty good.

[Max Chaffkin]

Packing cubes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Packing cubes. Well, that's like a pity noise, but I'll take it.

[Max Chaffkin]

Letting your children loose on the airplane.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Letting your children loose, Sit next to strangers and guilting strangers into moving. And finally, AI for good.

[Max Chaffkin]

AI tools.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Fighting robots with robots. Fight back.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Yes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yeah. Fighting robots with robots.

[Max Chaffkin]

All right, let's do a final. It's close. It's a photo finish between packing cubes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Is this an action?

[Max Chaffkin]

Oh, okay. Thank you again for safety.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Wow.

[Max Chaffkin]

Packing cubes.

[Brian Kelly]

I love that. It's a good idea.

[Max Chaffkin]

Brian's tip.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Robots using AI using robots.

[Max Chaffkin]

All right, it's packing cubes. Packing cubes is the winner.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Stacy wins. I am floored and very grateful.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Wow.

[Max Chaffkin]

I'd like to thank.

[Brian Kelly]

Is there a brand of cubes that you love?

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

The Amazon ones are pretty good. They're. Yeah, they're pretty good.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Thank you for bringing our conversation back to Earth. That was a really important moment that

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

we needed to have. It's the cheapest of the hacks for sure. Yes.

[Max Chaffkin]

Brian, Nikki, thank you for being here. Thank you to the Ludlow house. Thank you to On Air Fest. Really appreciate it. Thank you all.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Yes, thank you. And travel safe.

[Max Chaffkin]

And we'll put some of Brian's tips in the show notes or something.

[Nikki Eckstein]

Right?

[Max Chaffkin]

Because I feel I saw some people taking notes.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

Oh, my gosh. Yes, I know. There's a couple credit cards I need to get. I don't even have close to 30.

[Brian Kelly]

It's a good thing there's this website called thepointsguy.com.

[Stacey Vanek Smith]

i've heard good things things about it. This show is produced by Jasmine JT Green, Stacy Wong and Miles J. Hershenhorn. Magnus Henriksen is our supervising producer. Sam Rogich handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Special thanks to Jeff Muskus, Julia Rubin and Maria Ling. And a very big thank you to Scott Newman and the rest of the On Air Fest team along with Ludlow House for putting this together. If you have a minute to please rate and review the show, it means a lot to us. And if you have a story that should be our business, please send us an email. Everybody's bloomberg.net that's everybody's with an sloomberg.net thank you for listening. We'll see you next week.