Cracking the Code on Voice123 How to Be Found and Book More Work with Nikki Schwartz

Summary

Podcast Summary: Everyday VOpreneur® with Marc Scott

Episode: Cracking the Code on Voice123 – How to Be Found and Book More Work with Nikki Schwartz

Air Date: September 4, 2025
Guests: Marc Scott (Host), Nikki Schwartz (Guest)
Episode Length: ~53 minutes

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Overview

This episode dives deep into the complexities of Voice123, one of the most popular—and perplexing—online casting platforms for voice actors. Marc Scott is joined by Nikki Schwartz, a voice actor turned admin guru, who has developed tools and strategies for optimizing Voice123 profiles to get found in searches and book more work. The conversation ranges from Nikki’s unique journey, to her data-driven approach for profile optimization, and actionable advice for leveraging the platform’s algorithm—dispelling long-held myths and shifting mindsets along the way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Voice123 “Code”: A Problem Worth Solving

• Voice123’s Complexity: Both Marc and Nikki immediately acknowledge the “confounding” nature of Voice123’s search and audition system.
  • Marc (01:25): “Just the fact that we have to crack a code to even figure out how to be able to use the site probably speaks to a greater problem in and of itself.”

2. Nikki’s Journey to Optimization

• From Teacher in China to Voice Actor & Organizer: Nikki shares her story, emphasizing her love for “boring admin stuff” and how it set her apart.
• Entrance into Voiceover: She started in a dubbing studio in China and eventually pivoted to offering support services for voice actors, especially after becoming a parent and stepping back from recording.
• Discovering the Admin Edge: Her enjoyment in streamlining chaos and her willingness to tackle admin tasks laid the foundation for her value proposition.
  • Nikki (07:35): “I like it when it goes from really bad to really organized.”

3. Building a Tool for Chaos – AI as Opportunity, Not Threat

• No Coding Background: Nikki candidly explains how she used ChatGPT to teach herself Python and build a tool for analyzing Voice123 profile data.
  • Nikki (10:20): “I actually did end up going to ChatGPT and saying, like, I want to build this thing, but I don't know how to do anything.”
• Reframing AI: The conversation flips the script on AI from existential threat to creative enabler.
  • Marc (12:03): “Can we just take a minute to acknowledge how freaking awesome it is that you go from somebody who has no clue about any of this stuff to using this tool to teach you how to code and build another tool?”
  • Nikki (12:51): “It helps me do stuff that frees me up to do the important human creative part. It can do, like, the manual labor that nobody wants to do anyway.”

4. The Two Algorithms on Voice123

• Audition & Search: Nikki clarifies that Voice123 has separate algorithms for automatic audition matching and search-based direct invitations.
  • Nikki (21:18): “I think of it as actually Voice123 has two completely separate algorithms. One is the one… for automatic auditions… the other one is the search, which a lot of voice seekers will use.”
• Why Search Matters: Many buyers skip mass auditions in favor of searching profiles, favoriting, and sending direct invites for specific needs.

5. Shifting Mindset: Platform as Search, Not Just Pay-to-Play

• The platform’s true function is closer to Google search than traditional pay-to-play.
  • Marc (17:51): “The people who are willing to play the game, learn how to appease the algorithm… there’s an advantage for the people who are willing to do that.”
• Intentional Visibility: The goal isn’t just quantity—it’s being found for the right things by the right clients.
  • Nikki (19:29): “It’s about ranking for the actual thing that you want to be found for because it’s appropriate.”

6. Optimizing Your Profile—the Practical Steps

a. Multiply Your Clips, Don’t Rely on Single Demos

• Upload individual clips segmented from your demo, each tagged with specific styles, genres, tones, and relevant keywords.
  • Marc (35:10): “Is the name of the game to a degree, he who has the most clips wins because you have the most SEO potential?”
  • Nikki (35:19): “Yes. However, if you had a hundred of the same kind of clip… you only get one at bat.”
• Diversity of Keywords: Unique, well-tagged clips increase chances of matching buyer searches.

b. Precise Keywording and Descriptions

• Meticulous tagging using current casting trends, client specs, and real language from castings is crucial.
  • Nikki (29:19): “I made a custom GPT… that would just give me back synonyms. I’m stuck. My brain is stuck. Okay, well, there’s affable, there’s personable, there’s amiable… but the more you do it, honestly, the easier it gets.”

c. Update Your About/Bio Sections

• Your bio is also SEO-able; use keywords, but keep it natural and relevant.

d. Continuous Analysis & Adjustment

• Nikki regularly monitors profile health, updates clips/samples, tracks casting trends, and provides data-driven recommendations—because “the algorithm does change” (46:24).

7. Access and Tier: Is Search Democratic?

• Pay Tiers: While higher tiers offer more visibility, search is relatively democratized if you do the keyword work.
  • Nikki (39:38): “Search is more democratized... I’m able to help people who are not platinum, not elite to be found on page one along with elite.”
  • Free tier has more limits; basic and above can compete on equal search footing if optimized.

8. Working with Nikki: What She Offers

• Levels of Service:
  a) DIY Reports—Nikki analyzes and generates a comprehensive to-do list for improvement.
  b) Assisted Setup—She provides keyword strategies and supports live updates.
  c) Full Service—She manages full profile optimization directly, for busy pros.
  • Nikki (43:07): “They already have their samples up... Nikki, just do it. And I say, okay, I’ll see you in two weeks. Bye. Bye. And I’ll listen to their, all of their samples and I will make a spreadsheet... and they log into their computer... I sit with them while they copy and paste in the updates.”

9. Transferability: Beyond Voice123

• The optimization mindset translates to other casting sites and your personal website’s SEO.
  • Marc (31:38): “The samples that are on your Website. If you want to do SEO and geo on your website to attract people… Getting yourself found in ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini… that’s going to matter more than SEO.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Branding:
  Marc (02:55): “Isn’t that what a brand’s supposed to do—make you want to know more, make you ask a question, make you dive into it a little bit deeper?”

• On Industry Frustrations:
  Marc (14:19): “You end up in freaking online casting purgatory because you submitted too many auditions and didn’t get enough likes and you dropped to the bottom percentiles…”

• On Mindset Shifts:
  Nikki (19:29): “It’s about ranking for the actual thing that you want to be found for because it's appropriate.”

• On Buyer's Perspective:
  Nikki (22:32): “I think the people who are more experienced, who have less time, who want to just like, boom, boom, boom, will do search.”

• On the Real Value of Optimization:
  Nikki (36:24): “Put up more clips of the things you want to book more of, because people will come and think you want to book more of that thing and they’re going to try to hire you.”

• On Gaming the System:
  Nikki (38:04): “If you put in just boatloads of keywords… you will be found more, but you will be found and disliked a lot more and get punished in the algorithm…”

• On Demystifying the Process:
  Nikki (47:39): “It's a true reflection of reality of that sample. And of course, your audio file is a reflection of what you do when you’re booked.”

• On Results:
  Marc (33:50): “Lynn gave me the rundown and she's like… within weeks, I made back my membership and investment for the year from jobs that I booked as a result of direct search.”

• Parting Advice:
  Nikki (50:37): “Make yourself findable. Exactly.” Marc (52:03): “Be found in search. Be findable.”

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:25 – Voice123’s code & the admin’s perspective
• 03:31 – Nikki’s career journey: from China to Missouri to admin specialist
• 09:00 – Transition to support services & VA for VO
• 10:20 – Using ChatGPT & learning to code tools for Voice123
• 12:51 – The good side of AI: freeing creatives from admin busywork
• 14:07 – The “audition rat wheel” of Voice123 and algorithm frustrations
• 17:51 – Mindset shift: Voice123 as SEO/search engine, not just pay-to-play
• 19:29–21:11 – Core strategy: being findable for what buyers actually want
• 21:17 – Two separate Voice123 algorithms (audition matching vs. search)
• 24:00–26:00 – The specifics of sample tagging & role of descriptors
• 29:19 – Using AI, custom tools, data analysis for synonym/keyword selection
• 31:38–32:00 – Skills and strategies transferable to websites, other sites, and even future search engines/LLMs
• 35:03–36:24 – Demos vs. clips, and what kind of sample library to build
• 38:04 – The risks of “keyword stuffing”
• 39:38–40:58 – Search access: tiers, democracy, and beating bigger spenders with strategy
• 41:32–44:51 – Detailed rundown of Nikki’s optimization services
• 46:24–48:49 – The need for up-to-date, high-quality samples; algorithm updates; market realities
• 50:37 – Final takeaways and the importance of balancing buyer/talent needs

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, detailed look under the hood of Voice123, debunking the myth that it operates like a simple pay-to-play audition platform. Nikki Schwartz brings real, data-driven advice to “de-chaos” your approach: treat your profile and demo clips as SEO-able assets, tailor them to match current casting trends, and optimize for both search and substance. Whether you want a DIY roadmap or need a hands-off solution, the episode demonstrates that strategic, authentic optimization—not sheer volume, nor game-able hacks—will make you findable not just on Voice123, but across the evolving landscape of online casting.

Links:

• Nikki’s Services: OnlineCastingOptimizer.com
• Everyday VOpreneur Resources

Final Advice:
Make yourself findable. Be strategic. Let your profile work for you, not the other way around.

Transcript

[A]

If there's a more confounding online casting platform in existence than Voice 123, I can't imagine what it would be.

[B]

I really like the boring admin stuff.

[A]

Just the fact that we have to crack a code to even figure out how to be able to use the site probably speaks to a greater problem in and of itself.

[B]

Actually did end up going to ChatGPT and saying, like, I want to build this thing, but I don't know anything.

[A]

You're still paying for access to the auditions, but now there's more than one way to get those auditions.

[B]

Put up more clips of the things you want to book more of, because people will come and think you want to book more of that thing and they're going to try to hire you. You're a voice actor, you're an entrepreneur, you're a veopreneur. Welcome to the Everyday Veopreneur podcast, your guide through the business of voiceover.

[A]

Are you ready to take your marketing to a whole new level? Because you want to set yourself up for success in the fourth quarter and you want to finish the year strong. That's where Voiceover Marketing Playbook comes in. A step by step, easy to follow marketing course. It's gonna teach you how to find your own leads, build your own client base, and become the consistently working voice actor that you want to be. Playbook is back in October and you can sign up for the wait list now so that you'll be the first to get notified when it comes out. Head to voiceovermarketingplaybook.com that's voiceovermarketingplaybook.Com Are you.

[B]

On the edge of your seat yet? You should be.

[A]

If there's a more confounding online casting platform in existence than Voice123, I can't imagine what it would be. But Nikki Schwartz is here to save the day because she has actually managed to crack the code, or so I've been told. Nikki, have you cracked the code on Voice123?

[B]

The somewhat, yeah. I've done a lot of work on that code trying to figure out how that works and specifically for the search algorithm so people can be found in search.

[A]

Just the fact that we have to crack a code to even figure out how to be able to use the site probably speaks to a greater problem in and of itself. But we'll get there in a few minutes. First, I want to get to know you a little bit because this is actually the first time that you and I have ever met. And I was curious what does it mean to be a chaotic girl next door? I was doing some research. I was like, what does that mean? Like, are you outside, like, throwing wild, raging parties while baking cookies or something? Like I was trying to picture in my head visually, what does that look like?

[B]

Yeah. Putting the Mentos in the Coke and shaking it up. Just going nuts. Yeah. It's the kind of girl next door, chaotic good, chaotic, not lawful, just chaotic fun, I suppose.

[A]

I'm always interested to see what voice actors come up with for branding, and I love it when I see something that stands out like that because it makes me curious. And, I mean, isn't that what a brand's supposed to do is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Make you want to know more, make you ask a question, make you dive into it a little bit deeper. I mean, it made me smile. I was like, chaotic next door. That sounds. Sounds like fun. That sounds like somebody I want to have a conversation with.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But as much fun as it is, part of what I do now is to, like, de chaos.

[A]

Well, I mean, in order to be able to adequately and successfully de chaos, I would assume that one must have a solid understanding of the chaos in the first place. Right. So you have to be there before you can. You have to be in it before you can decode it or whatever.

[B]

I totally agree. Yeah.

[A]

Right on. So tell me about the journey from teacher in China to voice actor in Springfield, Missouri.

[B]

Wow. You did your homework. I'm so impressed. Okay. Yeah. So I.

[A]

There's a story in there.

[B]

There seems a little story. So I wanted to go on my one big adventure. Like a hobbit. I knew I had one chance.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And, you know, the furthest that I could get from where I was when I was graduating college was to dig a hole through the earth, and you end up in China. So I moved to China, got a job there as a teacher, you know, as you do when you. When you have nothing else that you know, and had a fantastic time. Enjoyed teaching a lot, actually, language teaching. Moved through the ranks, got into, like, corporate management that was not so much fun. Moved to the British Council, where I was doing, like, language assessment and Ielts and that kind of thing. So I actually stayed in China for 11 years. But partway through, I was at this party and I ran into a girl who said, oh, hey, I'm a voice actor. And I was like. I said the same thing that everybody says. That's amazing. I've always wanted to do that. You know, it's one of, like, three answers.

[A]

My mom always told me I had a great voice.

[B]

Oh, that's the other one. Good for you. You nailed it. It's almost like you. You know, I've talked to people who about this before. Then I said, how could I do that? And she goes, well, we don't have any jobs available. And I was like, oh, okay, whatever. But then later she actually called and said, we're doing some. Adding some children's shows and we need more another woman and would you come in? And it was a dubbing studio attached to the biggest animation studio in China. So I went in and auditioned and they thought I was, I guess, decently trainable because I'm sure I was terrible, you know, but I was as we.

[A]

All are when we first started.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yeah. But I, you know, I was try hard and nice to work with, I suppose. So they took me on part time and trained me up and I really enjoyed it. So I kind of stayed. And then I built up, you know, a business out of it. I learned what the heck I was doing because there's so much to learn, every single aspect about running the business and about how to edit your audio and how do you find clients and what the heck is going on and how to even do a good read on top of all of that. And. And then I built that up enough that we were tired of living in like a big mega city, so we moved to nowhere. Nowhere town. Springfield, Missouri, which is 20 minutes side to side, but they have an Alamo. They have, like the nice amenities, so you get the best of both worlds. Anyway, so we're here. And I kept going, doing voiceover and getting coaching, which because in America, super competitive, was a different. It was a different industry in China, really. And then I stopped to have a kid. October 2022 is when he was born. And ChatGPT dropped November 2022, and generative AI hit the landscape. I was gone. I was totally off work having, you know, my baby and then raising him and then eventually he goes to daycare and I say, okay, let me come back and I'm just gonna pick up where I left off. No, the whole landscape had had a bit of a tumble. My clients, of course, I mean, I was, I was not really available. So they had, for the most part, moved on. Yeah. Luckily, when I was getting ready to have a kid, I said to myself, self, you should not continue trying to do voiceover because you can't just close the door and scream baby. And be like, bye. You know. So I figured I could do support services because I really like the boring admin stuff kind of get a kick out of organizing it and making it all work together and play nicely.

[A]

That might actually make you one of one in this industry. You might be the first person that I have ever spoke to, even on this show, which is fully business and marketing oriented. You might be the only person that I've ever spoke to who openly admitted I actually like the boring admin stuff.

[B]

I like it when it goes from really bad to really organize.

[A]

There is a deep Are you a Virgo by any chance? Oh, because you sound like a Virgo. Because that's me. I'm like, I want to. It must be the chaos thing then, right? It must be you taking the chaos and finding. Finding sense in the chaos then. But I mean, hey, there's a lot of voice actors that would love that service because yes, most of us did not get into this industry. Surprisingly enough, we did not get into this industry for the boring admin stuff.

[B]

Shocking.

[A]

If you're a voice actor looking to level up your voiceover business. There are so many different resources available to [e-mail] this podcast is just one of them. But then there's also things like Free Advice Friday, a weekly live stream on YouTube where I answer your voiceover business and marketing questions for free. There are PDFs and different resources that you can download for [e-mail] and of course there's premium resources as well. Workshops, masterclasses, private coaching. All of these things are designed to help you get better at the business side of voiceover for everything you need. Business and marketing head to veopreneur.com now back to our show. You find Chachi BT you decide that you want to. You you enjoy the boring admin stuff. The voiceover industry has kind of shifted. So where does that leave us?

[B]

I offered support services going into right before I was going to have the kid. I started doing that so I could get all established with VA for vo, which are a great organization.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And one of the people who hired me was Leah Hoffman. I don't know. She's a fantastic person if you've ever met her. To optimize her Voice123 profile, she wanted more work and I was familiar with voice 1, 2, 3. And so as I started working on it, I realized that there is no transparent way to look at all of the samples that I have up at one time. So I couldn't say look at all the samples. There was no way to know. Like, have I. How many times have I Used this tag. How many times, how many samples do I have that are fully tagged versus incomplete? Have I overused keywords? Like, there was no way to see that. So I built a thing that would let me see that. And then I just kept refining it until I got all of the data, like, analyzed, the chaos harnessed. And then I realized I could do this, like, as a. As a thing for more than one person. And so that's, that's where I started. I started from tool building.

[A]

So is that where ChatGPT came into the mix, or did you have a background in coding and building software and.

[B]

No. So I actually did end up going to Chat GPT and saying, like, I want to build this thing, but I don't know, how do I do anything? Yeah. And what do I do? And it said, basically, you need to go learn Python. And I was like, okay, bet. So I went and I started doing that. And so I learned how to. That's what I started in. That's where I do most of, like, the data analysis. And so I learned how to put together a little spider to pull the public information right off the page for the samples, and then how to organize it. And then I built out all the most important, like, metrics that I wanted to have in my analysis with Python. And whenever I'd get stuck, I would go to. At the time, it was chatgpt. Now there's much better options. You can go to cloud code, you know. Ooh, that's a really good one. If it had been 10 years ago, I would have had no chance to build stuff because I just. I would have had to learn from scratch.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But this way I could say, you know, I'm stuck. What. What am I doing wrong? And I can get the answer, like, really fast. And I can say, explain it to me like, I'm five, I don't understand what this means. And I learned really fast. So, yeah, so that's kind of where that merged together.

[A]

This is where under most voice actors we. We look at AI as this existential threat to our existence. We're very anti. Anti AI. A lot of people in the industry don't even want to discuss it at all whatsoever. I've had people on the show to talk about AI before, and I've got. I'm a guy who. I don't think I ever got negative feedback in this industry ever, until I started talking about AI, because it's like, the subject that you don't talk about.

[B]

It'S worse than the actual threat.

[A]

Can we just take A minute to acknowledge how freaking awesome it is that you go from somebody who has no clue about any of this stuff to using this tool to teach you how to code and build another tool.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You are now able to use, and now you're like the most popular person in the world. If you can help voice actors figure out voice 1, 2, 3 and. Right. If you could, if you can help them crack that code, fix their profile book, more work. Yeah, like you're adored. But that didn't happen without the AI, which everybody we're supposed to hate. And so I just think it's really cool that you were able to use. That's the way the tool should be used, in my opinion. Like, that's, that's the cool side of AI is being able to use it to do things like that.

[B]

Yeah, it helps me do stuff that frees me up to do the important human creative part. It can do, like the manual labor that nobody, nobody wants to do anyway.

[A]

So I'm assuming then, because you have now been able to unlock the secrets and mysteries of Voice123, that you've probably also unlocked other secrets and mysteries of the universe, because I feel like you would have to be able to do that in order to crack this code on Voice123, which, I mean, I legitimately remember, this is a couple years ago ago, but I legitimately remember asking the CEO of Voice 123 to explain the algorithm. And he's like, I have no idea. I can't. He like, he literally could not explain his own algorithm. And I was like, if you can't explain your own algorithm, I mean, I get it, he's the CEO, but still, I'm like, if you can't explain your algorithm, how the heck do you expect the rest of us to figure it out? But somehow, somehow you have magically figured it out. So that, that is pretty impressive because, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when having a profile on an online casting site meant you uploaded a couple of demo clips and you wrote a little brief bio, and then you just started auditioning your face off until you booked. But that is definitely not how voice 1, 2, 3 works.

[B]

Now, it could be, but then you're stuck on the audition rat wheel and.

[A]

And if you don't do that right, you get.

[B]

Then you really. You got nothing, right?

[A]

You, you end up in freaking online casting purgatory because you submitted too many auditions and didn't get enough likes and you dropped to the bottom percentiles or whatever. Like the Whole thing just feels like this game that you have to, that you have to understand in order to be able to make it work. So do you think that this algorithm driven casting experience, do you think it makes it better or worse?

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

And maybe there's two perspectives on that because maybe there's the talent perspective and maybe there's the buyer perspective. But I'm just curious what you think because you've obviously been in. You understand it enough to know what's going on. So what do you think?

[B]

So I think it's useful for there to be an algorithm, but when the algorithm is a bit clunky, it can be difficult to navigate.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, you know, for example, right now we all, Everybody on voice 1, 2, 3 gets auditions for things that they have no sense getting auditions for.

[A]

I'm not even on the platform and I get auditions all the time for languages that I don't even speak, have never spoken, and do not even have in my profile. And I, like, I literally haven't had a membership on that site. And like, I don't know, like eight years. Every once in a while I get these like, Spanish, you know, whatever. And I'm like, what?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that. And also languages and accents and ethnicities. The accents and ethnicities that like, this has nothing to do with me.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

This is not me. Thanks for playing.

[B]

Yeah, so that's where the algorithm is not sophisticated and like completely fall down.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Even something as basic as the fact that we have like a filter and when you upload your samples, you can tag it with the language and the gender and the age. I mean, that's useful for getting people to come to you if they're looking for your language and gender and age. So the algorithms, I think are useful, but they could be more sophisticated, they could be more nuanced, I think would be even more helpful for us.

[A]

So is this one of those instances where if they were slightly more sophisticated, it would actually make them easier to understand because they would work more efficiently?

[B]

Yes, I think so. Okay, so right now if you want to show up in search on Voice 123, you need to have enough samples so that no kind of, no matter what common terms the people search, you have a sample that matches that. So you have lots of samples. And you also need to make sure that you fully filled out all of the tags, the categories that you can. So the purposes of recording the voice styles, you know, every segment that you can fill out with information from one of their drop down menus on the sample. You fill it out fully and then you take advantage of the search keywords. And so the point is every single individual sample needs its own special treatment. And it takes a lot of time and a lot of effort.

[A]

Causing me stress. I think I got gray hair. While you're talking just thinking about it, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is why I don't use online casting anymore. I wonder though if, if the problem is our perspective. Because as I'm listening to you talk about it, I'm thinking. So I'm trying to figure out. I've started using ChatGPT actually to help me with some SEO stuff.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Because my site does not rank anywhere in the Google machine. Right. And so if you choose to learn how to do SEO, you can get Page one on Google.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so the people who choose to go down that road and who choose to learn or outsource it to someone or whatever, there's a, there's an element of a game to be played there. And there are winners and losers and winners end up on page one and losers end up on page 47. And you can choose whether or not you want to, to play that game. It feels to me like that's what's going on with Voice123 is that we're, we're looking at it the wrong way because we're, we're looking at it like pay to play. I give you money, you give me auditions. But that's not really what it is anymore, is it? It's more like Google search. Like the people who are willing to play the game learn how to appease the algorithm. There's an advantage for the people who are willing to do that. Is that fair?

[B]

So I actually it is a game if you want to think of it as a game. But it's also making it easy for people to find you when they're actually looking for you. So the things, it used to be possible for you to rank on Google Page, on the page one of Google by like not putting out good content but just putting out lots of volume and stuff that was highly keyworded. And like there were all these old sneaky tricks where you could hide words in white. You know, we don't do that anymore. They caught on. But if you don't think about it as my whole goal is to be on page one, but instead my goal is to be found when people search for me.

[A]

Found for the things that I want to be found for.

[B]

Correct. So then your mindset about this whole thing kind of shifts. So it serves you to be found, but it also serves the voice seeker. When they're looking for bright, millennial, automotive, male friendly. You know, if they're looking for that and you have a sample and you put in the time and the effort, you get found for that, and you don't get found for something unrelated, which would just piss off the voice seeker. Like, why did this sample come up? I don't want this. So it's not just about ranking. It's about ranking for the actual thing that you want to be found for because it's appropriate.

[A]

Maybe that's where the disconnect comes, is that we're still not seeing it, or a lot of people still aren't seeing it for what it is, which is it's actually a casting search platform.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I guess that's the difference because for anybody who's been on the site, like, I was on the site way back in the beginning, and it was literally just. They posted jobs, you auditioned. Right. It was just a. That was what it was. And that's how it got the pay to play. Because you paid for access to the auditions, you're still paying for access to the auditions, but now there's more than one way to get those auditions. And I guess maybe that's where the disconnect is coming, because we're just wanting to wake up in the morning, have a series of auditions in our inbox that we can just click through to and submit for. But there's this whole other world that's happening on Voice123 that if you're not optimizing for, you're missing out. And that's the buyers who aren't necessarily posting an open casting call, but they're searching for what they specifically want to find.

[B]

Yes. So I think of it as actually Voice123 has two completely separate algorithms.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Totally separate ones. One is the one that everybody complains about being opaque, which is, what is this percentage thing? And how can I get more auditions automatically matched by Voice123 and that percentage ranking thing and auditions. I would. I. I don't teach that on purpose because the v1, 23 pros already has a course and they're fantastic. And I send everybody to them if they want to learn the full. The full shtick about how, like, v. 1, 2, 3. Voice 1, 2, 3.

[A]

So that's an important distinction to make as well, because you are doing something different from what Catherine and Natasha.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are doing.

[B]

I actually reached out to them, like, first to say, hey, I've built this thing. I would love to work with you and not, like, against you. I have no interest in drama or stepping on toes. I think we do different things. Can we talk and meet? And they were lovely. And they were like, yeah, we definitely do different things. So that one algorithm is the automatic auditions from Voice 1, 2, 3, and ranking the other one is the search, which a lot of voice seekers will put up an audition, an open audition, but a lot of them will also.

[A]

Just search because who has time to listen to 200 auditions?

[B]

Exactly. So I think the people who are more experienced, who have less time, who want to just like, boom, boom, boom, will do search. And there's like a hybrid in the middle. You as a voice seeker on Voice123, when you put up your audition, you go through the process. At the end, after it's all submitted and it's up for however many people to audition for, you come to this screen that looks a lot like the search screen and you have a toggle that says, show me just my favorites, which a lot of them will toggle on. Show me just my people that I have favorited, profiles that I've favorited. And then there's another toggle that says something I'm paraphrasing, Show me the voices. The people who have samples that match my casting specs. So the thing that I just uploaded, if I put in the language and I put in the information about it, show me the people who have samples that match, then they can listen to those for a second or two and go, yep, invite to project. Yep, Direct. Invite this guy to project. Direct. Invite that guy to project. And it's kind of like being shortlisted. I mean, it's kind of like you've been previewed, so naturally you're more likely to book the thing that they have directly invited you to if they've listened to what you've done, Right? So it's kind of like cutting the line a little bit. And instead of just always being reactive and auditioning, you put up the work that you want to book more of and you make it easy for people to find you because they're looking to book you, you know?

[A]

And again, I haven't been on the site for a couple years, so I'm sure some of this has changed. But it used to be that the auditions were sent based on, you know, are you male, are you female, are you middle age, are you young adult, are you senior? Do you have a commercial demo? Right. So if it was a commercial project. That might be it. It might be that it's a commercial project. So they invite people with a commercial demo, and it's for a male voice. So they invite people who are male with a commercial demo, and it's for a young adult. So they invite people who are have a commercial demo, are male and are young adult. And that was kind of how it sorted. But what you're saying is this is like level two. This is. This is now where it's okay, you're male and you're young adult and you have a commercial demo, but I want the guy next door and you have a guy next door read.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So it's narrowing it down even further.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And that's where you come in. You're helping us to go from the general, I'm a youthful male voice actor who does commercial incorporate and whatever to I'm a youthful male voice actor who does commercial incorporate and explainer with a dad voice and a guy next door voice and a millennial voice and a happy and an upbeat and a sad and whatever. You know, insert descriptor here because so many of the projects do give you. Well, sometimes it just feels like every project just asks for conversational, but it's pretty hard to optimize.

[B]

You're talking to your best friend, but.

[A]

Then if they say that conversational, like you're talking to your best friend, if you have a clip or something, that one person's gonna have conversational, but the person who has conversational talking to my best friend, that one goes to the head of the line. Is that the stuff you're talking about?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, I don't wanna do that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That just feels like a lot of work and a lot of stress. So I'm so glad that you're here.

[B]

Yeah, that's why. Well, that's what I do. So. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so tell me about how do you do that? Because I can say like, so I have a voice Sam player, and it's on my. The Voice Sam players on my website. And one of the things that Bob Merkel's talked about in Voice Sam is labeling based on types of reads, for example. So what we were just talking about. My problem is I don't have a freaking clue. I don't know how to come up with the. You know, what is this? Is this my guy next door? Is this my youthful. Is this my whatever? So do you have a system for figuring out.

[B]

Okay, so I'm gonna have to say, Mark, that's of course, you know, this it might be harder for you to do it for yourself. But if I were to come to you with 10 samples from literally any English speaking voice talent, and I said, what genre is this? How would you categorize this? There's no way that you wouldn't be able to say, come up with something. Yeah, of course.

[A]

And so we can't. Of course. It's always harder to do it for ourselves. We're too close to our own stuff. That's fair.

[B]

But something else that I do is I watch casting specs. I see what's coming through. What kinds of keywords are casting directors and agencies putting into their casting specs? What are the recent celebrity touch points that they're putting in the cast? You know, are there new trends? Are there? And then I take all of the. That, all that text and I crunch it down into lists so I can see what are the most frequent words. What should I be focusing on? Now I can look at, you know, for some people, I say go and collect all of the things that you've booked, all of the specs, all of the text and put it all into one place and let's see what really you're booking. And is that how I. We have. Do we have those keywords in your profile and all of your samples, or do we not? And if we don't. But you're booking, that, that's stupid. That's like a mismatch. Yeah. So you don't have to always come up with. I mean, I do it enough that I'm pretty darn fast now, but I categorize every sample. Think about it. Not just like, what is this? But what is the usage? What is the placement? Is it fast, is it slow? What's the pitch? Is there anything, a timbre of the voice? Is it particularly gendery, very masculine, very feminine? What kinds of. If I had to give it a role, Doctor, nurse, you know, or, you know, this sounds kind of like a cowboy or a western movie, you know, and then what is this? What is the person actually doing? Are they being helpful? Are they being snide? Are they being sarcastic? Are there, is there any humor at all? Keyword for sure, if it's funny, because not everybody can do funny and people like funny. And then is there anything authentic about, about this particular person or this role? So if they're like a veteran, for example, and the thing is about veterans, then you add in lots of key, you know, defense or all of those keywords and then, and then you can go to a thesaurus and look up adjectives or you throw it into chat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I made a custom GPT when I was just starting that would just give me back synonyms. Just give me back. I'm going to give you words. Give me the synonyms back organized, so I don't have to think about it because I can't always come up, you know, friendly. I'm stuck. My brain is stuck. Okay, well, there's affable, there's personable, there's. There's amiable. But if you're not thinking about that and you feel paralyzed by the work, a thesaurus, a little AI tool. Whatever gets you, you know, gets you going. But the more you do it, honestly, the easier it gets. And so with some people, they. They're actually really good at it, but they need help sitting down. And we go through it together and, like, listen to samples and practice keywording.

[A]

So I had David Quique on the show last year. David's a voice actor who is also a data analyst for the government. That's a day job thing. And I brought him on the show because I wanted to talk to him about all the different ways that voice actors could use data in their business to improve their business. And David and I had talked about it, and I even said, this is going to be the most important episode that no one's going to listen to, because they're going to see data and analysts, and they're going to be like, no, not for me. And yet for the voice actor who listened to that episode and took the stuff like he was just dishing out gold. And so all the different ways that you can look at different data points in your business and analyze that to find trends or what's working, what's not working, where do I devote more attention, less attention, et cetera. Right. Like, so important, but it's hard. And so people don't do it. And that's exactly what's going on right here. We just want to upload. Yeah, but, but, but most voice actors just want to upload their demos and wait for the auditions to come to their inbox, and it just feels like they're missing a trick. Now, you specialize in Voice123. Do you do anything on any of the other sites at all, or is. Is it transferable? If I. If I do all this stuff on Voice123, I could take that and I could also put it into my samples that are on Vidalgo or my samples that are on voices.com or whatever, and.

[B]

The samples that are on your Website. If you want to do SEO and geo on your website to attract people.

[A]

Directly to your something people are not talking about enough.

[B]

Okay, yeah, right, right.

[A]

Getting yourself found in ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini or whatever, because that's going to be. That's going to matter more than SEO.

[B]

I think it's a nice happy marriage of just, you know, things change. SEO is kind of changing. We still have traditional SEO and then we have.

[A]

There's more than one benefit here, obviously. If you're throwing 888, that seems to be like one of the most popular plans on Voice 1 2, 3. If you're throwing $888 of Voice 1, 2, 3 and you can go through what you're offering to optimize that site, get access to more opportunities, but now you get to take all of that and optimize your website, optimize your other casting profiles. Like, there's so many more ways that you can implement this. I don't know if you know the answer to this or if this is a fair question. If you don't, it's fine. But I'm curious because you talked about how there is kind of two different algorithms. And the more that I understand Voice123, it really does feel like there's two different ecosystems. There's the automatic casting ecosystem. Client posts a job, just submits the casting, and then there's the search ecosystem. Client knows exactly what they want, goes searching for it. Do you know at all or do statistics exist at all on the percentage of jobs that are one versus another? Like, like this percentage of jobs is direct casting, this percentage of jobs is invitation search or do you know anything like that?

[B]

I have no firsthand knowledge. No. However, I have heard people talk about interviews with Voice123 did bring some stats at some point about how often search is used. And they have in fact been prioritizing the open chat search where people can just type in, you know, that bar at the top? They've been prioritizing that because it used to be when you got to that search page, they had more filters that were automatically opened. And now when you go to the search page, you have to go to the filter yourself on purpose because it's always collapsed by default. So, but, but I don't have firsthand knowledge of this.

[A]

Okay, but there are, like, it's a real thing. Like, I mean, I, I wasn't familiar with you. I told you I'd never heard of you before. So I was doing a little bit of research beforehand and I Reached out to Lynn Norris because I know Lynn. Lynn and I are very close. We've. We've been friends for a long time. And I said, tell me about this Nikki person and what she's doing. And Lynn gave me the rundown and she's like, yeah, she's like. I went through the process with Nikki and she's like. And within weeks, I made back my membership and investment for the year from jobs that I booked as a result of direct search. I'm like, okay, well, I mean, frig, that's good enough for me. That told me everything I needed to know about whether or not this works. So let's talk about. I mean, we've kind of been alluding to it, but we haven't directly just kind of spelled it out. So step one is clips versus demos. Right. So whereas before you would upload a commercial demo that had five or six or seven clips all together in one file, now you want to upload each one of those seven files individually and label them and tag them accordingly, Is that correct?

[B]

Exactly. In addition to having your.

[A]

Com so you have the demo on the whole and the individual clips.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So is the name of the game to a degree, he who has the most clips wins because you have the most SEO potential?

[B]

Yes. However, if you had a hundred of the same kind of clip with the same kind of keywords, when somebody searches, you only get one at bat. You only can you have one sample that shows up.

[A]

So you need also working against yourself.

[B]

Well, it doesn't hurt you, but you wouldn't have more power in search unless.

[A]

You have a good goal, top 10 spots or whatever. Right.

[B]

So if you have a good variety of keywords, then you get found more often.

[A]

Okay, so more clips that reflect more distinct reads, styles, specific direction, tone, et cetera, industry, et cetera. If you're claiming that you can do whatever it is, whether it's young adult or middle age or senior, or it's happy or sad or tough or authoritative or whatever. More clips that reflect more styles keyworded appropriately.

[B]

Yes. Put up more clips of the things you want to book more of, because people will come and think you want to book more of that thing and they're going to try to hire you. So put up the things you already book.

[A]

Is there data on, like, what are the top, I don't know, 25 or top 50 most searched? There's data on that.

[B]

It's outdated, so I think it's from. It's several years old. So you can.

[A]

I feel like that would be really easy data for Voice 123 to produce. I feel like it would be in their best interest to produce that.

[B]

I would love for them to do that and give it to me. Put it anywhere on the Internet, I will find it. I have a Google alert that lets me know if they put something.

[A]

But am I thinking about it wrong? Like, does it to me, does that not make the site better? If, you know, if you, if you release that data publicly of what everybody's searching for, I get out. I mean, I guess it could be gamed. Right. Everybody would then try to make samples that say that I can do all of those things. But ultimately you would get found out. But it would be helpful to know because if that's what everybody's searching for, don't you want the maximum number of talent on your site so that you can provide the client with the options?

[B]

Yes. So if their algorithm were even more sophisticated, then no matter what you search, it would automatically look for synonymous. That would then. Then if you say you're friendly and somebody types affable that you still have a sample that matches. But the algorithm right now is just put in the word, find the matching word, you know, and you can game it by putting in just boatloads of keywords. The problem is if you do that, you will be found more, but you will be found and disliked a lot.

[A]

More and get punished in the algorithm, other algorithm. And that's how you end up in the bottom percentiles or whatever.

[B]

Well, you just won't be invited. And people will say, I was searching for automotive and this is medical. Like, what the hell, dude?

[A]

Yeah, why? Okay, so you've gotta be, you've gotta be smart about it. So step one is getting as many samples as possible and keywording them accordingly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is step two? Is it, is it your bio? Is it like, are there other places where you put keywords?

[B]

Yeah, the about section is also seoable. Keywordable. So fill that out.

[A]

Also, do you have to be careful about how you do it? Like you can't just fill it out just full of random keywords. Like, does it actually have to be written and make sense? Like you talked earlier, we talked about people who used to game the Google search algorithms by just throwing up Google.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you, there's a word, nobody will stop you. Nobody's going to come and say, oh, you've written these weird keywords. You shouldn't do that.

[A]

So on the search side, does it matter what tier you're in? So if. Let's say that there's 10 voice actors who have conversational guy next door, youthful male. And that's exactly what the client is searching for.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do those results appear because this person paid 1,200 and this person paid X like, you know what I'm saying? Like does, does the tier that you buy in, does that impact your rankings? Or is. Or is search more democratized? Just have the right clips and the right tags.

[B]

Search is more democratized, which is why I'm able to help people who are not platinum, not elite to be found on page one along with elite when.

[A]

So that's an important distinction. This is for anybody.

[B]

However, it is not wholly democrat. It's a, it's a democratic republic. Okay. We'll call it that. It's not really a democracy.

[A]

I mean it is still pay to play, right?

[B]

Yeah. So they'll tell you if you are on the free tier. For example, you get like up to one search I think per month or something that you can be found in. So there are limitations. You won't be put further back in the search, but you could just not be shown is my understanding. But I, when I test it with the people that I work with, they're usually at the 888 or the 222,200 tier. It doesn't seem to matter when I search as long as I'm putting in something to search, then it's based on the keywords.

[A]

So there, there is an element of pay to play, but there's also an element of if you're at 395 and you're willing to do the work to keyword that people at 888 aren't willing to do. That's how you beat them at the game.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

At the game at being found.

[A]

I would be willing to bet that most voice actors feel about this the way I do, which is it sounds really great, but there's slim to no chance that I am going to do this. And so that's where you come in. What do you do? We give you our, our samples and you, you keyword them and like explain the, the optimization process that you. That you're. That you will do for a voice actor.

[B]

Well, it depends. Some people want. I mean it also depends on the investment whether I'm investing, whether I'm doing it for them or whether they're going to be doing it for the themselves. Just using some of my tools to help them figure out what the heck to do. So I do an analysis. I run an analysis and collect all of the data off all of their samples that they have public on their profile. Not behind a login, just, just there. And so I put that into a report so that we can look at an analysis of the health of the profile as it is right now, as it exists. And then make smart strategic decision decisions about what to change, what to fix, whether something is working or isn't working, whether we have like an imbalance. And then that comes with a 15 minute call so that they can get their questions answered and a very comprehensive to do list of exactly what to change. And it'll be things like you, you know, for this particular sample on here's the sample name, fill out this particular thing that you didn't fill out. And you need to add this. And then you need to change this one word you have duplicated. So change that, add additional sample details. And so many people will just print that off. It's usually several pages and then they can just go through and tick tock it through the list to get it. Yeah, just work through the list.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then some people hate it, don't want to do it, don't enjoy that, would rather invest some more money so that they don't have to invest the time and the effort. Totally fine.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So then the next sort of tier of service that I'll offer is where they already have their samples up on their playlist and they come and they say, Nikki, just do it. Just, just do it. And I say, okay, I'll see you in two weeks. Bye. Bye. And I'll listen to their, all of their samples and I will make a spreadsheet. I know everybody's favorite with a new re keyword plan. So I will put down everything that I think, everything, how it exactly should be keyworded in voice123. Then we meet again together. I also add transcripts and nice additional sample details. And then we come back together and I give them this plan. And they log into their computer, they log into their voice, 1, 2, 3. And I sit with them while they copy and paste in the updates. So they are still doing the labor, but they didn't have to think like, oh, what keyword should this be? And then there are other people for whom they're not going to stop for anything. Their money is in the booth. They outsource everything they can so that they can do more in the booth. And these people think in terms of how many gigs until I get the return on investment back, what is it worth it to me, they often have 50, 100 samples or not. And then I work with them. They give me their actual voice123login. So I would be like their assistant and I would go in and make the changes for them, listen to all of their samples. They would send me their. You know, a problem with fully full time voice talent is there is still. They're full time, but there's not enough time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So they would also send me clips of work, playlists of their work that they haven't uploaded yet. And then I would download and clip and then upload those as samples too. So it's all very, you know, above the board. There's nothing, there's not like a trick to it. It's just hard work, time and effort and like listening to the samples and genuinely figuring out if I were the voice caster director person making this, what, what would I put out in the world to find? What am I looking for to cast this thing that's already been made and that's how you keyword it. So you kind of like reverse engineer it. And then there's A downside to Voice123 is that the algorithm does change. Change things sometimes change. So. And also sometimes seeing results can take a little while. So I usually will meet with them over the course, you know, once a month for several months until things are really going. And we see the results in terms of more profile favorites and, and more direct bookings and direct messages coming. Not, not as a result of their effort with auditions, but just from people finding them. People finding them, you know, and then sometimes we don't see that. In which case we have to go back to the drawing board and look like, look, gather more recent work, look at the casting specs, listen to the samples. Maybe some of the samples were outdated. I worked with somebody who had kind of like 90s vibes, sort of.

[A]

I was going to say that's got to be a factor too. Right. And I think that's important to, to note is you gotta, you still gotta have the goods.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you can't just buy access to the work. You still gotta be able to deliver your demos, still have to be great, your home studio still has to be dialed in, like all that sort of stuff. And so you can't just SEO the crap out of your profile. Yeah. You may get found, but if the demos don't back it up, all the SEO in the world doesn't matter.

[B]

Then you're getting found for what exactly? Yeah, luckily most, most voice talent sort of self triage because Most people don't just have a bunch of money sitting around to throw at problems. But if I do get somebody who would benefit from more coaching, then I'll kind of tell them that for a lot of people who are. Who have been in the industry for a long time, it's more a matter of your samples were really old and, like, outdated. You haven't uploaded some of the more modern style of read. So that's what we had to do.

[A]

Can you have too many samples? No, it's really just about being able to deliver. Right. Ultimately, it's about being able to deliver. If you're going to put a sample in with a keyword, it's got it. You got to be able to deliver.

[B]

It's a true reflection of reality of that sample. And of course, your audio file is a reflection of what you do when you're booked.

[A]

You know, you talked about the fact that the algorithm changes or goes through changes periodically. And I think we've all. Anybody that's been on the voice 1, 2, 3 for any length of time, you've seen that happen. But I don't think the search stuff is going away. I think if anything, that's going to become even more important. And I really do think part of that is just a change in the mentality. Look, our attention spans are fried. The TikTok generation can't focus on anything for more than six seconds. So, you know, going back to something we said earlier, who's got time to listen to 200 auditions? Nobody wants to sit through that. Well, fewer people want to sit through that experience than, you know, even did five or 10 years ago. If I know exactly what I'm looking for, and granted, not everybody always knows that, but if I know exactly what I'm looking for and I can do a search for that exact thing and I can find 10 people that match that exact spec and the person is there, like, I just saved myself potentially hours on the casting process.

[B]

Yeah, and you saved that talent from having, you know, how many auditions to book in America? Is it a professional gets what, like 4 or 5%?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it saves both sides.

[A]

This is the future.

[B]

Welcome.

[A]

So if somebody wants to find out a little bit more about the service or learn about what you have to offer on the search side. And I mean, honestly, I said it earlier, but it's just being reinforced for me. This. Yes, you're selling a voice 1, 2, 3 service, but this is like, this is so transferable.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

This is so transferable to your website, to your other online Casting profiles. There's extra added value in all of this. But if somebody's interested in finding out more about what you have to offer, where do we go to do that?

[B]

The website's onlinecastingoptimizer.com we will put that.

[A]

Into the show notes so that anybody can check it out. If they want to check it out.

[B]

They can also email me. Just Nikki N I K K I at Onlinecasting Optimizer.

[A]

It is a perplexing site. Voice123 it is. Even in the early days of Smartcast, I was like, this feels like it's more complicated than it needs to be. But I always try to keep an open mind. Right. Like, they're in a tough spot. They've got to appeal to the voice actor. We're the ones that are paying money to be on the platform. But if they don't have ease of use and efficiency for the voice buyer, they're not going to be on the platform. And then there will be nothing for the voice actor to do. And so you really do have two masters in that case that you're trying to serve. And so sometimes it's really easy for us to just look through the talent lens. And I understand why people are like, I just want to pay my money and get my auditions. But from the buyer perspective, maybe they don't want to do auditions. Maybe they just want to find the person that they want to find. So make yourself findable.

[B]

Make yourself findable. Exactly.

[A]

Well, Nikki, this has been really great. Thank you for your. For your insights into this and explaining the algorithm, uncovering the mystery, pulling back the curtain on it a little bit more as we continue to try. Now we just need them to not make any massive changes for a while now that we.

[B]

That would be great. They made one about a month and a half ago that broke all of my tools and I had to take a break to. To redo all of them, but they're all there. You know, we're back up. So if V1 voice 1, 2, 3. Please stop be afraid.

[A]

We've got it out in the universe now too, that we need you to release the data on the top searched keywords and directions so that we can. We can optimize accordingly too. So we'll put that out there. So to, you know, give us the data. Give us the data at least.

[B]

Or call me and then have me join your team. Team. I'll help you.

[A]

All right, Nikki. Well, thank you so much for coming on. The link is in the show notes, so if anybody wants to check it out, find out a little bit more. It's one of those things where when you're spending the amount of money that you're spending on a site like Voice123 already, if that one extra tool like this optimization, that that one extra tool can be the difference between making your money back or making your money back with profit or whatever. Like you've already spent a little bit. You know what's a little bit more to make it happen? It make the right investment. Be found in search. Be findable.

[B]

Be findable.

[A]

It's going to be the new tagline.

[B]

Let your profile work for you.

[A]

Is that even a word? Is findable even a word?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, Nikki, thank you so much. I do appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you. The everyday Veopreneur podcast available everywhere. Find podcasts are given away for free. Mostly.

[C]

We think you have a great website. Right? Well, make sure you host it at some place that doesn't suck. Hey, it's Brad Newman, fellow VO Pro for 28 years and owner of Upper Level Hosting.com. people ask, why us? And that's simple. We make it easy, respect your time, save you money, and just make all the magic happen. You don't need to know all the tech stuff. When it comes to hosting your website, we got you ask around. Tens of thousands of client interactions later and six years of amazing customer service and not a single negative complaint ever. Upper levelhosting.com and scene.

[B]

And that's a wrap. Thanks for hanging in. Thanks for hanging out. Want more Veopreneur goodness? Jump [e-mail].