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Online casting sites hate you.
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You're a voice actor. You're an entrepreneur. You're a veopreneur. Welcome to the Everyday veopreneur podcast, your guide through the business of voiceover.
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If in fact it is true that online casting sites hate you, then what do we do for voiceover work if we don't have online casting sites? What we do is self marketing. And if you need help with self marketing, you need veopreneur.com visit the website for countless resources designed to help you think, act and run your business like a veopreneur, including resources to help you become a more confident and effective marketer. Everything you need is@veopreneur.com the Veopreneur Podcast. Hey, it doesn't suck.
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Not as funny as Conan, not as cute as Seth Meyers, not as smart as Colbert. But he's one of us and that counts for something. Here's Mark Scott, the original Everyday Vopeneur.
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We need to have a serious talk about online casting and this is probably not going to be a popular episode. I mean, it will be a popular episode, but not popular because of the opinion. In fact, it's probably a hot take and it's probably going to anger some people or upset some people. But that's okay. We still need to have a serious conversation about online casting. This is going to sound like a pretty broad and maybe generalized blanket statement, but for the most part over the years, I have become more convinced that online casting sites hate you. And when I say you, I mean the voice actor. Online casting sites over the years have recognized that they can do just about anything. And no matter what, voice actors are still going to throw money at them. Because voice actors, I don't know if it's a desperation for audition opportunities or if it's a lack of understanding of the business of where else to go to get audition opportunities. I'm not sure what it is, but it really does feel like no matter what happens, there is always going to be a percentage of voice actors and a pretty decent sized percentage of voice actors who are who are going to throw money at these casting sites. No matter what these casting sites throw at us. Let me give you a couple of examples. There's one particular casting site from Canada which I'm not associated with. Just to be clear. Everybody always is like, hey, isn't that like your neighbor? Voices.com repeat offender. I got banned from voices.com a number of years ago because I called them out for taking hidden commissions on projects. And when I say hidden commissions, the Talent didn't know that the commissions were being taken. And the buyer, the voice seeker, the client, they did not know that commissions were being taken. And voices.com was getting away with it because the way that it was written into their terms of service at the time, and keep in mind, this is going back a few years, maybe it's changed, I don't know. But at the time it was written into the terms of service that they only had to disclose the commissions if they were asked. But if I'm a voice buyer and I have no idea that voices.com is taking a commission and they never allude to the fact that they're taking a commission, I have no reason to ask about whether or not they're taking a commission. So they were able to take hidden commissions and get away with it. And when I say hidden commissions, I want to point out that I caught them in multiple examples taking commissions of 70 plus percent. In one case, I caught them taking a 92% commission. I called them out publicly for it. Got banned off the platform. That's okay. It wasn't a platform that I wanted to be a part of anyway at that point with the way that things were going. So voices.com has proven repeatedly through their professional services projects that they will take advantage of voice actors. They don't care about you because they're getting their money from their membership fee. Now they're also getting their money from their, I believe it's a 20% escrow fee at this point. And then they're getting their money from their commissions. So they're literally triple dipping talent and taking money from you so blatantly and disrespectfully and talent get really angry about it, but they keep paying their membership fees and they keep going back to the site and they keep signing up. Something doesn't make sense. Voice123, definitely not the worst of the offenders. But Voice123 has built an algorithm that makes the site almost unusable, in my opinion, which is why I don't use the site. Voice actors complain about that algorithm on a daily basis. Literally on a daily basis, they complain about that algorithm. Voice123 has admitted that they don't even fully understand how their algorithm works. All voice actors know is you throw money at this site and if you don't get likes, which is out of your control, by the way, because most clients don't understand how the like system works. So if you don't get the likes, then you get punished by the algorithm. I shared an example recently of a voice actor who booked three jobs in a week on Voice 1, 2, 3, but had their rankings go down because they didn't get the like for any of those three jobs. So you book and you still get punished because of this completely, utterly ridiculous and flawed algorithm. An algorithm that, did I mention, voice actors complain about online every single day. But those same voice actors that are complaining about that algorithm are also throwing money at this website every year. And in fact, a lot of them are not just throwing the standard 395 or whatever the base user fee is. Now. A lot of them are throwing 6, 8 and $1200 a year at this site because they think they can buy their way out of the algorithm, which you can't. And they realize after they've thrown all the extra money at it, Voice 123 doesn't care. They don't have to care because as long as you keep paying the membership fee, you got to remember, you are their form of income. You are their source of income. So if you just keep throwing money at it, they have no incentive to change. We're the only way that they make their money. Another reason again why I left voice123 a number of years ago, I saw the writing on the wall a number of years ago. Now we have this new issue with Backstage that has come out in the last week and everybody is up in arms over their Terms of Service. Now I want to preface this part by saying very clearly, I am not a lawyer. However, the part of the Terms of service that people are getting upset about, it seems to be talking about user generated content. Now where things get tricky and this is where I would love to be able to talk to a lawyer, is the Terms of Service. Talk about User provided content. Now I have searched the web and I cannot find a specific definition for user provided content. It continuously takes me back to the definition for User generated Content. Now User generated content is something very different than what a lot of people think. There is an, a belief that User generated content is just any content that a user creates, period, exclamation mark. And so if you upload an audition or if you delivered a job recording through the site or whatever, you, there's, there's a belief that that would be accessible and usable by Backstage. And I don't think that that's the case in this case. So let me give you the definition of User Generated Content. User Generated Content UGC is any form of promotional content created and shared by unsolicited contributors or users of A brand rather than the brand itself. So if you are creating content, talking about how much you love Backstage, by the way, nobody's creating that content right now. But let's just say you were. If you were creating content, talking about Backstage, how great it was, how it's been a game changer for your business, how it's led to amazing opportunities, how you've booked some incredible clients from it, et cetera, and you were sharing that content that would be considered user generated content. And that's the stuff that Backstage could technically use. Now, again, I'm not a lawyer. I have struggled to find the difference or the definition of user provided content, but it seems to be the same thing as user generated content. So the point of this anyway is I'm not convinced that the terms of service say what voice actors think the terms of service say. But that's beside the point. For the last week, every one of my social media feeds has been filled with angry voice actors. Revolting. That's not even the right word. Revolting over Backstage in the new terms of service. But unless those voice actors are actually walking away from the site and actually speaking with their dollars by taking membership fees, et cetera, removing profiles, et cetera, then are you really revolting or are you just griping online? Now? Look, voice actors, I love you. You're my people, you're my tribe, you're my community. But we need to have some straight talk here for a minute. Okay, let's say that there are two auto manufacturers. And to keep myself from getting sued, we're going to say there's manufacturer A and manufacturer B. Okay? I'm not going to name names, even though it's just a hypothetical. Now, if auto manufacturer A does not manufacture cars that you like or that you enjoy, is it auto manufacturer A's responsibility to change their entire business model to please you, one customer, or is it your responsibility to go find another auto manufacturer who makes a car that you actually like? Now, I think in this instance, most of us would agree that it is our responsibility to go and find another auto manufacturer that makes a car that we like. We're not expecting auto manufacturer A to change their entire business structure just because we don't like it. It's their business. They can run it the way they want. Just like you have your voiceover business and you can run your business the way that you want. So how does this relate to online casting? Well, the question that I have to ask is, and the question that I am asking is, who is actually to blame here? Is it voices.com for their completely morally bankrupt and unethical business practices. Is it voice 1, 2, 3 and their absurd algorithm that even they've in the past admitted that they don't fully understand? Is it backstage in their terms of service? Are they to blame? Or are voice actors to blame because we just keep showing up, signing up, submitting, and keeping these companies going? Who is actually at fault here? Now, I know that the vast majority of you in your frustration, are going to say that the casting sites are at fault. And I certainly understand that sentiment. What I'm asking you to do is take a step back for a minute, Wu San, breathe, and ask yourself very seriously whether or not you are sharing responsibility in all of this. And I think in a. In a state of calm, if we can get there, because I know everybody's angry right now, but I think in a state of calm, if you ask yourself that question, you will realize that you carry responsibility in all of this. In fact, you may carry more responsibility than the casting sites. I'm guessing that you would not take too kindly to outsiders coming into your business and telling you how you should run your business and telling you that you should change your business model just because this outsider doesn't like it. You're gonna do you the way that you do you. Voices.com is gonna do voices.com the way that they do voices.com. voice 1, 2, 3 is gonna do voice 1, 2, 3 the way that voice 123 wants to do voice 1, 2, 3. Unless the customers speak. And who are the customers? Well, these online casting sites will try to tell you that the buyers, the voice seekers, are the customers. They've been trying to convince us of that for years, but it's just complete horse crap because the buyers have nothing invested in the site. The buyers are not spending a dime on the site. No matter how many times Voices.com tries to convince you that the buyers are paying the escrow fees, they're not. They're not. It's a commission. It's coming out of your rate. It's been coming out of your rate since the day SurePay was invented. You, my fellow voice actor and vopeneur, you are the customer because you're the one that is paying for the service. It is your dollars that create the revenue that keeps these online casting sites operating. Over the years, I've had the privilege of doing coaching sessions with hundreds of voice actors. And one thing comes up over and over and over again. When it comes to social media, there are three primary reasons why voice actors are not using social media. Number one is I've got no idea what to post. Number two is my life is not that interesting and number three is I just don't have time. I've got some good news for you. I have put together a brand new workshop called the Veopreneur's Content Compass. And in this 60 minute live workshop I am going to overcome all of those for you. I'm going to teach you how to build an idea factory generating machine. I'm going to teach you how to plan and schedule ahead in bulk and we're going to come up with some strategies for some very specific content campaigns that are in fact interesting. This workshop is going to happen twice. June 4th at 1:00pm Eastern and June 6th at 7:00pm Eastern. And of course if you are unable to attend live for any reason, sign up anyway as you are going to get complete access to the recording. This is one of the Veopreneur low ticket, high value workshops. Only $47 US to join this workshop and you can get the details by going to veopreneur.com and clicking on the store button. Go to veopreneur.com, click on the Store button and look for Content Compass.
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Now back to our show.
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You can't have your cake and eat it too. As they say. I do not want to hear voice actors online whining and griping and grumbling and chewing and complaining about all these different online casting sites and the unethical ways that they do business and the things about the sites that they hate and the things about the sites that make it difficult and the things about the sites that impacting the voice actors business negatively if you are still going to continue to give them their membership fee every year. Anyway, now this is where we get to the fantasy part of the episode. I do not see a scenario where an overwhelming majority of voice actors actually walk away. I don't. Because if that was going to happen I feel like it would have happened already. Now, have voice actors walked away? Yes. Have influential voice actors walked away? Yes. Have we tried to have conversations with people from these companies? Yes. The CEO of voices.com showed up at VEO Atlanta, fed us Align. It's been several months since absolutely nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned. It was all just BS and marketing spin. We've tried to engage with them in different ways and it hasn't worked because the only thing that works, as they say, money talks. You my friend, my fellow voice actor, my fellow Veopreneur you're the money. You're the money. If we're not willing to walk away, if we're not willing to stop paying membership fees, then we just need to accept that this is the way that it is. And that really is the bottom line. Because as long as we continue to submit our annual membership dues, I don't see a scenario where anything is going to change, because I don't see a scenario where these sites are actually incentivized to change. Why should voices.com stop taking insane commissions and offering absolute garbage rates as long as voice actors continue to pay for the privilege to be screwed and taken advantage of? Let me. Let me say that one more time. What incentive is there for voices.com to stop taking obscene and obnoxious commissions as long as voice actors continue to pay for the privilege? This is what you are doing. You are literally giving them $400 a year, every year, to take advantage of you. You're paying them to screw you. In what other world does this make sense? Now, I know that the pushback is going to be. But, Mark, we need access to the jobs. We need access to the auditions. And I, and I certainly understand that. It's one of the reasons why I held on to some of these sites a little longer than I probably should have, even though I've been gone for a really long time. So there's a couple things that I want to say in response to that. First and foremost, there are lots of other jobs out there. I have built my business on marketing. Haven't had an active casting site membership in many years, and I'm doing just fine. It is possible to go out there and find the work. And if you're not spending so many hours of your day, every day devoted to all these online casting sites, you'll actually have time in your calendar to be able to go out and do that marketing. So there's. There's that consideration. The other consideration is that if voice actors started walking away from some of these platforms in large numbers, the buyers are going to look somewhere else to find the opportunities and to make those connections. And so that's an opportunity for us to maybe drive some traffic towards a site like Bidalgo, for example, or Veoplanet, another one that seems to be completely legitimate. So we could kill two birds with one stone in that regard, where we don't lose out on the access to the auditions, but we actually drive the auditions and the voice buyers to sites that are better and everybody wins. Something to think about. The other Thing that I would say is, unless you are making absolute bank on these sites, what are you worried about losing? So I coach voice actors every single day I do coaching sessions. Five days a week I coach voice actors. And at least once a day I talk to a voice actor who has some sort of a complaint, a beef, an issue, a challenge, a struggle, etc. With online casting. Some of these voice actors that are upset about what is going on are also voice actors who have submitted hundreds of auditions and not booked. So what are you missing out on if you walk away? What are you actually losing if you walk away? Now, if you are consistently booking 1 in 20 auditions, if you are consistently booking 1 in 30 auditions, if you are making $1,000 a week off of these casting sites, which some people are, I can understand a hesitancy to walk away, of course, but the people that are making a thousand dollars a week off of these casting sites are also not the same people that are online complaining about them. Or at least that's. That's the way it appears anyway. The people who are complaining the loudest tend to be the people who aren't making any money on the sites anyway. So then it makes me even more confused about why you aren't just saying enough is enough and walking away. We live in a very politically charged climate. I don't always agree with some of the things that I see online. In fact, I don't agree with a lot of the things that I see online. But I can't help but notice over the years that when a company does something that we don't like, they say something we don't like, they take a position that we don't like, they promote a cause that we don't like, we'll boycott them overnight. We have seen companies in the last year or two that have lost millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars off their market cap because of protests from people who are walking away because they don't agree with what that company's doing. So I know we have the capacity to do it. Now, I am not going to stand here and be your Napoleon or whatever, fearless leader in charge of the revolution. I have no interest, sorry, I'm not invested in online casting. I am coming at this from an outside third party perspective because I am not actively using any of these sites. They're not responsible for my business in any way. They're not responsible for my income in any way. So I'm looking at this a little bit more objectively, or at least I think I'm looking at this a little bit more objectively. And so as an elder statesman of the industry, can I say that? I don't know if I can say that. I just said it. But anyway, I'm just saying I think that we need to look at this a little bit more rationally, a little bit more objectively and I think we need to make some decisions now. At the end of the day, if you want to devote your time and your energy to griping about social media online, that is your God given right or your constitutionally given right, and I'm not going to tell you don't do it. But what I'm saying is there might be a more productive way forward. I want to come at this from a slightly different perspective as well. When I wake up in the morning, I get excited to go down into the booth because I can't wait to see what's waiting for me. Maybe there's an audition from one of my favorite clients, maybe there's a booking from one of my favorite clients. Maybe there's an email inquiry from a potential new client that I get to have a conversation with. But I get excited to go into the studio every day. I get excited to see what's going to happen next. I get excited about working with voice actors. I get excited about the coaching sessions. I can't wait to have breakthroughs with people and help them to find a new way forward in their business. These are the things that drive me, that get me up out of bed every morning and into the office every day. I want that kind of energy all day, every day. And so I'm grateful that I've built a business that gives me that. What I'm seeing with a lot of voice actors is they're starting their days out po'd because of what is going on on online casting. And I have to ask the question, if you're getting that upset, if you're getting that angry, if there's that much frustration or stress or anxiety over what is going on, if the algorithm on 1:2:3 is making you crazy, if the commission structure and crappy rates on voices.com is driving you nuts, is it not reasonable to assume that that energy is carrying through your day? Is it not reasonable to assume that if you are coming from a place of anger, frustration, resentment, bitterness, etc. Is it not reasonable to assume that that might be infecting how you approach your business consciously or unconsciously, is it not reasonable to assume that that could be influencing the reads that you're delivering inside of the booth? If you've just had a really bad experience on an online casting site and you're just ticked because of that experience, like this incredible opportunity landed in your inbox from voices.com but then you looked it up on GVAA and you realize this is a $15,000 job that they're trying to get you to do for 900 bucks. And by the way, I just helped a client coaching client work through a project exactly like that last week and should have been a $15,000 project. They were trying to get them to do it for 900 bucks. So if you just had that experience and now you're ticked because you're like, this is supposed to be a $15,000 project. Now you're getting me to do it for 900 bucks. But then all of a sudden you get an audition that drops in your inbox for a national from one of your agents that's actually at fair rate. Now you got to go in the booth and you got to record that national for your agent. But in the back of your mind, you're still ticked off about this $900 offer that should have been 15 grand. Are you sure that you're delivering the best possible audition for your agent at that point, or is the negative energy from the casting set experience impacting you in some way? It's a question you have to ask. So, look, at the end of the day, everybody's going to do what they're going to do. Voice 123 is going to run Voice 1, 2, 3, the way they're going to run it. VDC going to do the same thing backstage. They can rewrite their terms of service and terms of conditions or whatever, as many times as they want. It's their business, their prerogative, just like it's your business and your prerogative to choose. Am I going to continue to do business with these sites? All I'm saying is you have to take some ownership in this. Because if you are continuing to pay your membership fees, then whether you mean it or not, whether it's your intention or not, you're endorsing the practices of the company that you're choosing to do business with. So if you're going to keep throwing your four or five hundred dollars a year@voices.com and keep auditioning, no matter what you're telling them with your money, your patronage, that you accept the way that they do business. Now, maybe you don't. I know you don't. I've had the conversations with you. But that's not the perception on the other end. So your choices are maintain status quo, continue to allow online casting to hate you and give the money to do it. Or maybe it's time as a community that we start coming at this from a slightly different perspective, hopefully a more productive and meaningful perspective. Like I said, I'm not going to lead the revolution. I'm not invested. But I am a coach, a business coach, marketing coach. And I do feel a responsibility and an obligation to the vopeneur community that I've created to give you guys advice and to call things out when I see them, whether it's a popular take or not. And I know I'm going to get some pushback on it, that's fine. I've been getting pushback on stuff for decades now. Got broad shoulders, I can handle it. But I think somebody's got to tell you the truth right now. I don't know if anybody's telling you the truth. I know there are a lot of people that are just joining in the anger and raising up their pitchforks. Raising up your pitchforks is not enough. So something to think about. It's something to think about. How will you vote going forward? When you submit some auditions on 1, 2, 3, and maybe even book some jobs, but don't get the likes and you go from the top 20% to the bottom 40%, are you going to say enough is enough, or are you going to upgrade your membership and give them even more money? I know a lot of voice actors that upgrade their membership and give them even more money, which, by the way, we know it's been proven upgrading your membership, giving them more money, doesn't actually solve your algorithm problems, just to be clear. So it's not even the fix that you think it is, but people continue to do it. Don't be so desperate for work. Don't be so desperate for work that you're willing to be taken advantage of like that. Because there are other ways to find the work. There are other ways to find the work. Better ways to find the work. Maybe we need an organization like Nava to help lead the conversation. And I know that they're doing things. I know that they're trying. You know, World Voices existed. I guess it still exists. But, you know, a number of years ago, we thought maybe they were going to be the solution and that just didn't pan out and that's okay. Or maybe we got to do it ourselves, I don't know. All I know is that the constant complaining online isn't actually fixing anything. And if I had to venture a guess, and I'm not a therapist, but if I had to venture a guess, the only thing I feel like it's really accomplishing is in making the community more frustrated and dejected. That doesn't seem like a very fun way to live or to do business. So maybe we got to find a better way. It sounds harsh to say that some of these sites hate you, but it sure feels like sure feels like they do. And it sure feels like they continue to try to one up themselves on ways that they can hate you just a little bit more and see whether or not you'll keep giving them their money. Maybe it's time to stop giving them the money. I don't know. Something to think about anyway, because it's a conversation that has to happen and right now I just don't feel like it's happening in the most productive way. So take this as you will. Again, I say if you're making bank on these sites, ignore me. Keep doing you put up with it the best that you can. But if you're booking one in 500 auditions and you're still devoted to these companies at 4, 5, 8, $1,000 a year, it's not the fix that you think it is. It's not even the solution provider that you think it is, because they're not providing you with any kind of solution. They're giving you auditions, but you're not actually getting work from it. So if you're not even making money, what are you defending in the first place? Something to think about. Time to find a better way. All right, that's all I got to say about that. But it's a conversation that needs to happen. And I'll be very curious to see over the coming weeks what happens, particularly right now with backstage and the terms of service. But again, I would encourage you to make sure that you understand the definition of user generated content and make sure that you understand clearly what they are actually saying, because it might not be what you think it is. I'm very much looking forward to hearing what you have to think about this episode and whether or not you agree or disagree. Whether I hit the nail on the head or whether I couldn't possibly be more wrong, I'm certainly open to having those conversations because I think that's what needs to happen. I think we need to have conversations more than we just need to have anger and resentment and bitterness being posted all over the Internet. So let me know what you think. Tag me in your Instagram stories. Make a quick video or drop me an email, send me a message on X. I'd love to know what you think about this issue, but I do think it's time that more important and more productive conversations start happening around the subject of online casting, and hopefully you'll join me in it. Thanks so much for listening and I'll catch you on the next one.
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The Everyday veopreneur Podcast Available everywhere. Find podcasts are given away for free. Mostly we think you have a great website, right? Well, make sure you host it at some place that doesn't suck. Hey, it's Brad Newman, fellow VO pro for 28 years and owner of upper levelhosting.com People ask, why us? And that's simple. We make it easy, respect your time, save you money, and just make all the magic happen. You don't need to know all the tech stuff. When it comes to hosting your website, we got you. Ask around. Tens of thousands of client interactions later and six years of amazing customer service and not a single negative complaint ever. Upper level hosting.com end scene. And that's a wrap. Thanks for hanging in. Thanks for hanging out. Want more Veopreneur goodness. Jump online@veopreneur.com.