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Everyday VOpreneur® with Marc Scott
What Makes a Great Storyteller? Thom Pinto Talks Documentary and Docuseries Narration
01:03:29
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- [00:00]
A
What makes a good storyteller?
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B
I think we need to take a leap of faith.
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A
So it's part of that, just figuring out where you fit.
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B
It's your audience to lose.
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A
What are some of the mistakes that we're making as storytellers?
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B
If I'm starting to fall asleep a little bit, then that narrator is not doing their job.
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A
Has storytelling changed?
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B
We lean into what we don't know and we can learn.
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A
The everyday Veopreneur podcast is filled with actionable, practical advice. Over 300 episodes worth. And I want to keep bringing that to you. So can you do me two quick favors? Number one, subscribe. That way you're always going to get notified when the latest episode of the podcast drops. And two, take a minute to explore the archive. Look at some of the amazing conversations that have happened in the past 300 episodes. I know you're going to learn some things. Tom Pinto, you are somebody that I have wanted to have on the podcast for a really long time, and I'll tell you why I haven't yet. There were so many different directions that I could go with you, and I was trying to figure out what direction. You've done so many things. You're a legend in this industry. Just, you know, and we could walk down so many different roads. But I thought where I would really like to start with you is what makes a good storyteller.
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B
I just think that certain people
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A
are
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B
yarn spinners, you know what. And that's the best place to start. I think so many people in our industry can be good storytellers. Part of the thing. And of course, we're talking. My jam being mostly, you know, TV narration, documentaries and docu series of that sort of. I feel as though that the different genres out there sometimes can work against storytelling because that's not what they want. I mean, yes, there are commercials that are more storytelling format. I mean, you talk to Tina Marasco and she says, my God, the trend into more storytelling. But I think we need to take a leap of faith. That's what a storyteller has to do. And to find the things that he or she believes would be interesting to the audience and lean into it, not worry about overdoing. I think a lot of actors are on their heels these days because they're told in a session. No, that's too announcer. No, that's too big. No, it's too on the nose. But we have, you know, we have different genres, and I wouldn't tell that to an animation person. So why. Why a storyteller? Should be more expressive than a storyteller was maybe a quarter of a century ago. So I just think you have to lean into what you think is going to be interesting and trust that, that as long as you're being. As long as you're being authentic, as long as you're giving it your special sauce, then nobody's going to claim that you're overdoing. Like when Paul Giamatti talks. Paul Giamatti is rather animated when he's telling a story. He's got that flavor nobody's telling him he's too much because we know it's authentically him.
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A
So has storytelling. This is going to sound like a weird question, but in commercial, there are constantly trends coming and going in the way that you read a commercial 20 years ago, the way you read a commercial 10 years ago, the way you read A commercial five years ago, the way you read a commercial today, always changing, always shifting. Has storytelling changed?
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B
Yeah, I think when you have the various cable networks, when they came into play, they were really, their marching orders were to differentiate themselves from pbs. And so therefore, if you were Discovery, if you were Nat Geo, if you're History Channel, if you're Andy, I mean, those were four that really kind of started doing more storytelling in the cable universe. Also tlc.
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A
Yep.
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B
I'm just saying TLC before it went, you know, where the brand is today. Remember, TLC was one time called the Learning Channel.
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A
Yep.
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B
Okay. They need ratings. And because they need ratings, they need a higher give a factor in what they're doing in order to stand out. And so they have naturally, in my humble opinion, a little more color than some of the pbs. I also think that PBS has evolved, but at the same time, what PBS is doing is in terms of their cherry picking of certain celebrities that draw them into those stories because of their names. Okay. I mean, for every Keith David or Sigourney Weaver or Liev Schreiber who are outstanding storytellers as well as outstanding actors, you'll suddenly turn on a nature documentary and listen to a melodic yet one note British female voice that I've been hearing on particular nature documentaries. And you know, all I'm saying is no joke, if I'm starting to fall asleep a little bit, then that narrator is not doing their job. But here's the rub. They spent a lot of money on those visuals. And those visuals are beautiful. And I think many people will endure a so so narrator because they're so captivated by the visuals. Right. But. But I do, I do think I Do think that we have. Each network is trying to grab a little more attention when they can, but still sound. How do I put it? Authentic in their storytelling.
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A
There's really a branding factor that goes into this then, I guess, isn't there? Like, there is a PBS brand of narration. There is a BBC brand. Right. When you hear. When you watch a nature documentary, you think of Attenborough. When you watch pbs, you think of. I mean, I think of Peter Coyote, but that's Ken Burns. Right. Like, so is part of the job for a voice actor who's looking to do this type of work is part of it figuring out which brand of storytelling aligns with their brand of storytelling. Like if you're Mike Rowe, you're going to go to Discovery or if you're.
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B
Whatever.
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A
Right. Like, is that part of it? Because there really does feel like there are certain voices or styles of voices for certain channels, certain types of shows, certain genres of documentary. So it's part of that, just figuring out where you fit.
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B
It's research. I have to be honest with you, when I'm working with people and I have a list of 10 considerations to develop a storyteller, the eighth consideration is knowledge of the network or streaming service. We don't always know where a documentary is going to air. When we audition, sometimes we know the production company. Well, I will do the research and say, which networks does that? Production company? Oh, they do a lot of work with A and E, or they do a lot of work with Velocity Channel or whatever it may be. And I think familiarity of the brand is important. And boy, brands are evolving. Yeah. Think about this. A and D Arts and Entertainment. The A and D logo now says A and E. Then it's got a yellow like a crime banner, you know, like, you know, like a, you know, when it says, you know, do not walk, what. What do they say? Do not cross over there it says Crime Central. That. That is how they're branding.
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A
Yep.
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B
Travel Channel. Travel Channel is less about. Well, let's go to Secrets of Panama. No, let's talk Ghost Hunters. That's one of their top rated shows.
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A
Right.
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B
So I think it's important for people to, you know, you have to. Occasionally, if you don't have cable, you've got to go to the websites, maybe buy an episode or two. I mean, I think this is fun research. It's not like, you know, you're trying to decide what is the difference between McDonald's versus versus Burger King versus Wendy's. And so you watch a bunch of commercials doing that because those are, you know, 15 to 30 second commercials. And we, we all know that they're kind of just having us on our heels of not doing too much anyway.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I think the research factor is, you know, digging deep. And you're a smart guy. I mean, I don't want to embarrass you in front of your audience, but I'm just saying that, you know, you always, when we work together, you always ask great questions. You're wonderful with marketing. You understand that it's important aspect of, for us to know what we're doing, which lane to be.
- [09:47]
A
If there's one thing you can never have too much of when you're a voice actor, it's leads. More leads means more potential opportunity. The more leads you have in your CRM, the more people that you can build relationships with, the more access to auditions you can create, the more bookings you can create, the more income you can generate for your voiceover business. It all comes back to leads. That's why in April, I'm running a leads challenge, 15 days, April 1st to the 15th. I'm going to challenge you to find 100 new leads in that time. And, and not only that, I'm going to show you how to do it. Every day there will be another challenge. Every day I will give you another tip on where and how to look for those leads. And if you do it, if you follow through, by the end of the challenge, you're going to have 100 new leads in your pipeline ready to be marketed to. Want to join the 100 lead challenge? You can sign up now. Go to Veopreneur.com, click on the store button. Go to Veopreneur, click on the store button. Look for the 100 leads challenge.
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B
Now back to our show.
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A
So this is probably where some of the differentiation comes when it's really easy to, to see, you know, put 10 documentary scripts or 10 series scripts in, in front of someone, just the script with the, with the brief, and it's going to say storyteller and it's going to say non announcer and it's going to say conversational. It's going to say authentic. It's. They're all going to say the same thing, right? They, they literally every one of them will say the same thing. But really, if, if you do a little bit of the research, you figure out this is, okay, this is Discovery's interpretation of that or this is Nat Geo's interpretation of that. And if so, if you can figure out where that may actually land or this is science, this is crime, this is nature, or whatever that can help you determine what that version of the conversational, the storyteller, whatever. Is that fair?
- [11:46]
B
It is fair. And if you think about the evolution of the History Channel, which eventually added H2 so they could skew a little younger, and then eventually even History Channel took some of their older demographic war materials, you know, like World War I, World War II, Korean, and then, you know, put them on an entirely new channel called the Military Channel. Right. And. And which I believe Discovery ended up buying. But the point is, is that that's evolving. So if you're watching a war piece on H2, even if it's World War II, for some reason, it's probably got an unusual flavor to it and is not looking for. And. And by the way, I love Peter Coyote. Is not looking for Peter, Peter Coyote or Keith David at that point. They're looking for a younger voice who has appreciation for this curious aspect of the war. Maybe it was something about what the British did in terms of their intelligence. And sometimes that can, you know, is not the thunderous voice. It's a more inert voice in terms of storytelling. It's more intriguing and. But yeah, networks decide what they're going to buy if they've already got it, if they've already done it, they don't need it. So every network's looking for a new layer.
- [13:17]
A
It's really interesting, the amount of research. I mean, you could fall down the rabbit hole on this, I suppose, because. Right. Well, there's a World War II documentary for this channel versus a World War II documentary for that channel versus a World War II documentary For this channel. And every one of them has a slightly different flavor. Flavor depending on network, depending on audience, depending on who you're talking to. But for the voice actor who's auditioning for some of this stuff, if you can figure out some of that stuff, it really does help you figure out where you're trying to go.
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B
And also then take that information and trust your instinct to say, okay, I need to deliver the goods here in a way that reflects my storytelling brand as well. The intersection between what you're capable of doing, Circle A and circle B is what they're asking for. That intersection is probably your highest probability of booking. Or at least let me say this, it's going to be the highest probability of getting a positive response to where they say, you know what? He's really good. Let's put him in the pile with the other people. Maybe you don't book it, but at least you've not been in no man's land, so to speak, because you're trying to honor too many small things and not reflecting your storytelling capability.
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A
So you've coached obviously a lot of voice actors in this. In addition to the incredible career that you've had narrating. When you're listening to a narrator and you hear someone, that's what is the thing that you hear that makes you go, oh yeah, this person's got it.
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B
Visualization. Yeah.
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A
The ability to see the story that
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B
you're telling when someone is speaking. And they totally get that. And, and by the way, there are some wonderful celebrities who are so want. Who, who are very good visualizing and they don't do it to picture, they're doing it wild. But they can see, you know, who's really very good in terms of a celebrity. Jeff Daniels. Yeah, Jeff Daniels has excellent phrasing in terms of understanding. There's going to be a shot change here. There's going to be, that's going to be a wide angle shot. I need, you know what I'm talking, I'm talking about the, you know, he, he can realize, okay, we have a backdrop of, of, of a bay with a bunch of cuddy shark, you know, ships in the background. So I need to fill the expanse of that still shot. I'm talking about from the American Revolution most recent thing with Ken Burns. I think he has excellent. And that's what makes me go, ah, he or she has it. Another actress who has that visualization stuff. And by the way, she actually won an Emmy for her, what I'm going to call my primetime narration is Angela Bassett, you know, of, you know, Oscar nominated actress. But man, when she's narrating nature, it's like you can tell that she can sense the tension of that leopard that is waiting to pounce. And that's what we need to be able to do. And especially for us who work, the actors, the voice actors who work in a lot of different genres and again are so used to being told, please don't do that, pull back on this or whatever. This is the place to help support the pictures. We usually don't have those time constraints. I'm rarely told in a documentary or docu series session to where they say, you know, Tom, you're, you're running about three seconds long. And the reason why is not because I'm terrific, it's because they know how to write. Because they have looked at, they've looked at that scene and that scene needs about 21 seconds in order to follow the leopard, you know, going after his prey. And so therefore, usually you know you're going to be in the pocket if you trust your instinct. And she's terrific. So that's the kind of thing that gets me, that really pulls me in. Anybody who's trying to make too big of a point and overtake the pictures, it's that balance. It's kind of like, no, let the pictures do the talking. If the pictures aren't good, okay, then you gotta give it a little more love. It's a sliding scale. It's not a binary thing. It is a sliding scale.
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A
That was one of the things that I took away. One of the big things that I took away from the time that I was coaching with you was that that idea of really just taking a minute to go through the script and try to picture what is happening in this moment. What do you. And you may not. You may. You may not always know, right? Sometimes it's best guess or best interpretation. Sometimes it gives you. Sometimes it gives you clues, but really just taking the time to sit down and figure out what is happening. Because if you can get a sense in your mind of what is going on on the screen, it can help you to figure out how to actually deliver that line or that segment or stanza or whatever. And that was one of the big things, was that visualization, which is not always easy to do.
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B
Well, my memory of working with you is that once I reminded you that you have permission to do that and you took your time, because I know that you're also used to doing reams and reams and reams of longer format stuff where interpretation, you know, because you're so good with smart material, okay? But in terms of the emotional changes and the visual changes that go on, once you do that, it comes through. And let me just tell you something. One of my joys of social media now is suddenly clicking on and watching and hearing you or someone like Paula Tiso or Denise Krueger, who have taken the time to craft these little short pieces about the history of such and such, or going to this island, whatever it is. First of all, it soothes my soul. So thank you. But secondly, I love that you're putting yourself out there, that I am a storyteller and this is what I am doing to populate social media with something that is intelligent, that is humane. I mean, you're really doing social media a service, and so is Paula and Denise and others. Colin Hughes, a recent student, he did something of a military service Thing because he's very, very patriotic. I'm just saying, you. I'll ask you this question. Didn't you when you started putting together the video to go with the script that you crafted together, you're like going, okay, I need this shot to do this. Oh, wait a minute, I need to take a longer pause here because I've got more footage of that thing. I mean, what you've done is, is you've played talent and producer.
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A
Yeah. You get into it in a different way. And I'll tell you, the other thing actually that's had a huge impact is the, the audio that I use like for, from a music bed standpoint. And it's amazing how. And I've played around with it where I've done, I've done a read with and thinking this is the sound, this is the music that's going to be underneath of it. And, and maybe it's something that's a little bit more, you know, whatever we'll say slow and chilling or something like that. Right. But then I find a different track that's got a little bit more force and energy in it and I'm like, man, I kind of like the way that sounds. And then totally different read comes out. And so I, this is one of my things with auditioning. I love that they give us the brief. I wish they would give us the background track.
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B
Oh, I know, I know, you're, you're, you're preaching to the choir. And it's unfortunate, you know, now like for example, earlier this year I had a callback, something I didn't get. But I love callbacks because many times you get a different part of the script or you get a longer section of the script, you get a chance. Usually it's a directed callback, so you can ask a few questions, but more importantly, at that point they do send you some video. And the video usually has the music and you go, well, of course I'm going to be in a better space. But you know, you got those proprietary reasons. So, you know, my advice to people is if you find music that moves you in different kind of tonalities, you know, whether it's scientific, whether it's the solar system, whether it's, you know, something that you think that would go well with oceanography, you know, military, paranormal, serial crime stuff. I mean, even if you just have a 30 second clip and you spend $2 to buy it on that outfit, freeplaymusic.com you've got that to say, wait a minute, I'm gonna listen to this before I go and just prime myself, because I don't know that many people who have said to me, oh, music does nothing for me. I think, especially for actors, I think music is. Oh, don't mean to do a long sidebar, but just got done watching, and I probably should have watched it a long time ago. Just got done watching Hamnet. Okay. I'm not going to go down a rabbit hole of how wonderful of a film it was. But at the end, they had the making of Hamnet. The director, Chloe Zhao, if I'm pronouncing her name correctly, hopefully the composer read the screenplay, sent her some musical samples, a lot of which they ended up using, because that's what he. That's what he heard when he read the screenplay. You know, what she did before certain scenes, she did play some of that music. And you're talking. Excuse me, you're talking excellent actors, but they all enjoyed it. It's not that they worked to the music, but they got into the mood.
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A
Yeah, it really does help set the. Like. It gives you this frame of reference you can anchor to. I think when you're. When you're trying to figure out.
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B
Yeah, that's good.
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A
One of the things that we often hear is that when we're doing voiceover, regardless of the genre, but if you can connect to the script in some way, you find something. It's a product that you use or a brand that you use, or it's. It's a story that resonates because of lived experience or something like that. But when you can find that way to connect that. That can. That can help you to deliver a better read when you're auditioning. And I think that that stands to reason. But with the documentary genre, I think it's interesting. I mean, you could literally go anywhere, right? You could be World War II battlefield. You could be F5 tornado coming at you. You could be tracking bison through the Yellowstone, like, whatever. And we don't all have those lived experiences. How do you draw inspiration when you're dealing with the subject matter that you don't have some sort of direct connection to? Are there things that you lean into, tricks that you. That you've developed over the years? Or are you just being like, no, this is just my interpretation of it?
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B
Well, here we go. A big thanks to Reed Shelley, who directed me on a series many, many moons ago, one of the first series that I narrated. And somewhere about a third of the way through the first episode, he said, every time you sound like you're interested in this New thing that you learned. Because this series was all about learning. It was on the Learning Channel. Okay.
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A
Okay.
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B
Every time you do that, you're engaging me. And so I decided, first of all, I mean, have I hiked Yosemite? Yes. Have I actually been to Yellowstone? Still haven't. But my fascination about learning about things does help me. And I think documentary people who like documentaries, we're learning something new. We usually are learning something new. And. And I'll just say this. If you turn. If you're flipping the dial, you know, whatever, and you go, oh, it's a thing about Lincoln. It's a thing about Lincoln. I've heard everything I've had about Lincoln. But if you suddenly flip the dial and there's something about Lincoln, not his assassination, but about Lincoln's actual health at the time that he was shot, you go, well, wait a minute, what are they talking about? And so they're saying, well, they did dig up his remains years and years and years later. I mean, it was when they got. When they had DNA. We're talking about recently, maybe in the last 10, 15 years, where they had DNA evidence, that they can analyze the DNA and they could say, oh, my God, he had something. He may not have lived more than a month or so, by the way. I'm playing fast and loose with the story, but it was a fascinating documentary about an aspect of Lincoln that I didn't know. So we lean into what we don't know and we can learn. I think, as humans and I think as storytellers, that's where we really stand out when we embrace sharing something new and different that we've just discovered.
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A
I watched. You mentioned Yellowstone. I watched the Yellowstone 150 documentary that Kevin Costner has on Paramount. Plus, I don't know if you've seen that one or not.
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B
Haven't seen it yet. You know, that's on. That's on my list there. Yeah.
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A
And so I watched it, and I watched Kevin Costner also did a Yosemite one, and it was the story of Teddy Roosevelt, you know, three days.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I was like, dang, that guy. I just want to listen to him tell all the stories. Like, I was. I'm going through Paramount looking like, did he do any more of these? Like, I just want to listen to him tell more of these stories. I'm really curious.
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B
You know what? He does have great respect for nature.
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A
Yeah.
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History, open spaces. I mean, let's face it. It's not just because he did Dances With Wolves.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That is. That is that is. Or Yellowstone. That truly is part of what he is.
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A
Yeah. You can tell that that's. That's part of him and the way that he delivers, that is so natural. So I'm curious. You've been in the game for a minute. You've been in the game in la, Hollywood, whatever, for a minute. I'm sure that in your travels, in your story somewhere, you've come across some pretty good narrators, pretty good storytellers that you've had the opportunity to meet or work with or whatever, who are some of the ones that have stood out for you, who you draw inspiration from or you've been able to look to as a mentor or whatever.
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B
Years ago. Years ago, I had a small studio, and believe it or not, Peter Falk came into my studio. And it wasn't a job that it was a job for. I. I think it was a friend of his who was putting together something, and it was about a fable or whatever.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I could hear him in the other room. Okay. And whenever I would. I would. I would leave the studio door and Studio B. And so I could hear it kind of coming through over the monitors there. And I could hear him when he would stop and he'd go, okay, well, hang on. And this is. And I see this. And we're going there. Okay, let's do that again. Again. He was so in the moment. And I said to myself, there's power in the pause from Peter Falk. I got. There is power in the pause because we don't want to leave our audience behind. So I think sometimes when we see long sentences, we think, we have to get through. We have to get. We got to go through. We can't breathe. Or something like that. No, that's wrong. We take beats. Subject, verb, direct object, subject, verb, prepositional phrase. Mark Scott went to the store to buy groceries. It's not. Mark Scott went to the store to buy groceries. Well, that's not a very dramatic piece, but if you wanted a dramatic. Mark Scott went to the grocery store to buy groceries.
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A
And each one of those is a different visual.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So, you know, it's funny that I would say that I would be influenced by Peter Coyote. I mean, excuse me, by. By Peter Falk. Okay. I will tell you that I am influenced by Coyote. Long before he was doing even stuff for Ken Burns, I would hear him narrate stuff. Also, I will tell you that a real. A real eye opener for me from a first person narrator, that how little I could do vocally, but if I Was connected emotionally, it would work. Was Robert Redford's narration in A River Runs Through It. So I just feel like there are different people who we can pull from. I think Peter the great Peter Thomas, you know, he. God, he lived until he was maybe in the late 80s, early 90s and doing all that crime stuff. I've been influenced by Peter Coyote, I mean by Peter Thomas, but we get too many Peters here. Peter Thomas, back in the days of commercials, because he had a very lyrical kind of easy delivery. And I found that to be intelligent and welcoming. And as somebody who's naturally energetic, I said to myself, if I'm going to be a storyteller, I'm going to need to learn to find the spaces. And so that's probably why Arlington National Cemetery is maybe the favorite documentary that I ever narrated. Because it was written with the power of those pauses in the phrasing naturally. I mean, it just felt like they wrote it for me. They didn't. I auditioned for it and I was able to. But I was able to use that observational tone and I always enjoy working in that area. Now I've done powerful war things like for a two part series that I did eons ago for the True Story of the screaming Eagles, the 101st Airborne Division. Okay, well, that required more power, a little more thunder, a little more straightforward quality. I mean, maybe I was influenced a little bit more, you know, by some older school narrators on that. Maybe somebody like a Bill Curtis, you know, but.
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A
But I think of when I think
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B
of A E. Yeah, absolutely. Bill Curtis, which I, I saw that he's. He's going to be stepping down from. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Hey, you know, he's. He's had a great run.
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A
American Justice.
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B
American justice, right.
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A
It's one of the first shows I ever watched on A E and I. So I. Bill Curtis's name definitely comes to mind. So you've talked about the visualization, how important that is and the power of the pause. You mentioned that tip that you've picked up and finding a way to connect emotionally with the content and the story that you're telling. Let's go to the flip side. What are some of the mistakes that we're making as storytellers that maybe get us in the way of the story or get us in the way of what's happening that could be costing us the audition?
- [34:42]
B
I think because people see that they're auditioning for a documentary, there's kind of like, don't do too much. Everyone needs to Know their zero. So if you're already an understated individual and you see something that says, we're looking for understated storyteller, for you to say, oh, well, I'll give my understated side. Instead of saying, wait a minute, I'm already an understated guy. I just need to be me. So I, I, I think there is a great error of. And keep in mind that when they're listening back to an audition, they're not listening to you against visuals. They're only going to listen to you against the visuals after they've heard 50, 70 different people read for it and decide, well, these are, these are our selects.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, so there's no music. There's no visuals. So in the audition process, and I want to say this carefully, we probably have to give a little more variety than maybe what we actually do in
- [36:04]
A
the session, because your voice is carrying it at that point.
- [36:08]
B
At that point. And so if you have, you know, 65 to 70 seconds worth of copy, maybe it's 1, 2, 3, maybe it's like eight different cells. Okay, Beginning, middle, end, whatever type of thing. You need to take a look at the audition and find your opportunity to express a slightly different flavor. Look for pivots in the story. Look for the but factor. You know, in other words, you know this, but did you not know this but. Although. While surprisingly, regrettably, unfortunately, however, those are words where stories turn. So we look for that. Also try to find the cliffhanger stuff. Your last line of your audition. Usually a producer worth his or her salt is going to give you something where you can stick the landing, something that you can leave us wanting to hear more. And I think, again, and this day and age, people think, oh, my God, I went too far. I went too far. I'm afraid of going too far. My advice is, at the end of that audition, when you, your last line, which is maybe, you know, 10 seconds long, do three in a row satisfy. Satisfy yourself about resonating. Then wait a little bit, go back and listen. You'll probably say, okay, that was too much. Okay, that was kind of milquetoast. Oh, that was the one. I'll take take two. So I do think, generally speaking, auditions have to have a little more sauce. A little more sauce than perhaps what you might actually do at the session.
- [37:59]
A
Right on. Yeah. Because they can always dial you back a little bit.
- [38:02]
B
Right. In a session. In a session. You're doing okay, Mark. We're, we're moving on to VO number 15A, B and C. And they go, oh, mark B. I really, you know, we're going to mark B there because B had this really nice, comfortable zone. Or there's one producer said to me, they go, it's take three, Pinto. Because I would always be most grounded and relaxed and mo and lacking self consciousness in terms of underlining words or anything like that. On my third take, what can I say? Yeah, I did. You know, that's just a process. But you know what? They're trying to cover their bases to see what's going to complement what is going to complement that visual best of those three takes that you've delivered.
- [38:58]
A
How important do you think it is or do you think it's important for somebody who wants to do this genre? To be a consumer of the genre? Do you need to sit and watch documentaries or watch shows in order to really understand what's going on and really
- [39:16]
B
fully get into it? Yeah, you absolutely have to. You can't live in a vacuum on this. You just can't. And the thing that, to me, it's not like you have to, oh, you know, I just cut cable again. You can purchase different episodes. You know, you start to look, which networks would. Here you go. Which networks that you. You lost when you canceled. Go back, find a show, a popular show, something that's got a narrator that you think is generally in your zone. But here's the. Here's the wonderful thing. Talk about. Talk about inexpensive. People say, well, I can't afford to do a lot of coaching. All right, I understand that. If you click on that documentary, spend the 299 to get it, click on closed captioning, turn down the volume and watch it. You can read along with it.
- [40:24]
A
That's good.
- [40:25]
B
And here's the thing. I always find that when people look at it, they go, oh, that's why that narrator underneath me is so low key, because it's very creepy. In here, you learn how these things are constructed. You learn how the stories are constructed.
- [40:45]
A
Oh, that's so good. That's a good tip.
- [40:48]
B
Well, you know what? It's just one of those things. And by the way, Mark, I'd be honest with you. It was maybe two or three years ago where my wife said, honey, I can't understand this guy. We were watching the documentary and it was a British guy, nothing on him, you know. And she says, just put on closed captioning. Sure did it. And the closed captioning is matching the shot and the phrasing. And you're going,
- [41:23]
A
it's a masterclass, right?
- [41:24]
B
There. Well, you know what, It's a freebie. I'm entitled to give out freebies every once in a while.
- [41:32]
A
One of the things that I enjoyed about when I was working with you and I enjoy about the genre, it feels like there are rules. And I know that's not maybe the right way to express it, but like in commercial, a commercial could go in a thousand different directions. But when you're telling a story and when you're doing a documentary or you're doing a series, there's a structure, there are acts, there's the beginning, the middle, the end. Break that down for us a little bit so that we can understand those different pieces. Because I think for me anyway, having that structure and understanding that structure, it was, it's so good to help me, you know, ground myself to what's going on in the script or where I think I need to be going with the script.
- [42:16]
B
Well, absolutely. I, you know, I would say that most documentaries and docu series and I'm going to say most. Okay. And I'm going to start with again, the audition is most important because even if you got a great demo, very few people are going to book you from your demo. They're going to say, gee, we loved your demo. We want you to audition for this because they want to hear you on their specific material. It's going to be an hour long, Right? It's an hour long show. They don't want to risk, well, wait a minute. He had a wonderful little creepy piece for 15 seconds. Can he sustain that? And all the various layers in our entire script. So then they'll give at least a minute and a half audition. So I try to tell people that most start with a cold open, a tease and intro ahead of the show promo that is usually 5 to 10 degrees more engaging than your actual storytelling copy. It's something to pull people in.
- [43:22]
A
Yep.
- [43:23]
B
And it usually in the cold open somewhere in the cold open, it will indicate in its own way what, why you want to watch this, the purpose of the documentary or docu series. Usually it's like find out why blah, blah, blah, or discover how blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, or see how blah, blah, blah. So cold opens. Unfortunately, cold opens aren't always as storytelling, they're a little more promo esque. Okay. And it's unfortunate that that's at the very beginning of the audition. But then you've got another two minutes of an audition where you get a chance to tell your story. So I tell people, if you're not good with the promo esque cold open. Just read the body copy where it starts with act one. Start there. Because if you go through that, you'll know more about the documentary. So you can circle back to that open or tease and understand why you're pulling people in.
- [44:33]
A
Right.
- [44:33]
B
But those two elements, there is an open excuse, you know, cold, open, intro, tease, and then of course there is the body copy. But most hour long shows, if it's a docu series or a documentary special. Okay, that's on a cable network, usually is in five or six acts. It depends on the material. But let's just start. Let's say it was five acts.
- [45:05]
A
Okay.
- [45:05]
B
The first act might be almost 12 minutes long. So there you are for 12 minutes commercial, then 10 minutes commercial, then 8 minutes commercial, 5 minutes commercial, final 3 minutes. They always love stacking more commercials toward the end because they want to pull you in.
- [45:32]
A
Yep.
- [45:33]
B
And then you really. I want to find out.
- [45:36]
A
You got to stay to find the ending. Right.
- [45:38]
B
Okay. You know what I mean? And so those, those subsequent acts are shorter. But I think more importantly, each act serves a purpose. Now, when you're auditioning, you're not going to audition all, all five acts. But when you get to the session and you've got the script, you've been given the script, you know, a couple days ahead of time, it's good for you to look at and say, this is an overview in the first 12 minutes of what we're talking about. This second act happens more to do with the background and the history of this plantation. The third act, we introduce the characters that moved onto the plantation. The fourth act, okay, here's where the flood was and where the disaster was. And then the fifth act, how somebody came back 100 years later and rebuilt this plantation. Whatever. I'm just talking off the top of my head. But each act, act does have a purpose. And as a talent, you're, you're entitled to say, okay, so my sense is that Act 4 is about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, this person is really front and center in this one. So let's lean in what to what he does. So structure. You're right, Mark. Structure is actually your friend in TV narration. And that is why so many people are blown away when they find out, oh, you mean we're not just going to keep going and going and going and when I flub, then I go back and I do a pickup? No, you're probably going to be doing a cell at a time. Or there are some producers who might say, let's do these three cells because they're all similar in the visuals. And then we'll stop here because then we're going to. At different geographical locations here. But they do that. They do that. So they're going to get specificity in your read. They're looking for specificity in those different sections.
- [47:42]
A
I remember having this conversation with Cliff Zellman. Automotive is similar. There's a structure in automotive. There's certain things that you have to hit, right? And if you know that you have to hit those things and you're aware of those things, it makes it easier for you to do your read that
- [47:58]
B
automotive is a great example because you're talking about retail. So they've got a particular setup. You know, where's the local tag offer? Where is the, you know, where's. Where is the percentage point? What different open are you using? Or. Okay, this is, this is an automotive ad that's going to air on several different car dealerships, and we're selling it to them as a package. I mean, you know, you know more about this than I, I don't do automotive, but I'm familiar with it because there's just.
- [48:30]
A
There's certain things that you're looking out for in the script, right? And it's. This is similar. There are certain things that you're looking out for in the script. Understanding where the, where the cold open ends and, and the story starts to begin, watching for some of those transition words that you mentioned, right? So that this is, this is where there's a plot twist or, or a turn or something like that. And, and being able to recognize some of those things. I can help you to figure out where the story might be going, what might be going on on the screen, and how you can get into that even further. What makes a narrator, someone, excuse me, someone that producers want to keep hiring.
- [49:09]
B
It isn't about flawless delivery. It's about patient with the process, perhaps doing multiple takes, giving multiple options. You know, whether it's got more gravitas, less gravitas. Also somebody who does think visually. So in other words, if they send a video to you, that you'll be able to work without picture because you looked at it, that you've done your research, you looked over the script, you watched the video a couple of times. That's what I always do because that way I can reference back to something. And, and the other thing is that documentary directors, in my humble opinion, it's not like they. There are some pretty good commercial directors who will talk and try to finesse you because they don't want to give you a line read to do that. Sure. You know, documentary directors, a great source of their direction comes from this. Hey Mark, let's go back and try that again. We're going to be slowly panning when we go into the forest, you know, and the forest is kind of like we shot it. It's kind of like a midnight blue in the background. So if you can give me sort of an eerie forest feel on that a little bit more, I think that will go well with the picture. That's that that be. And why are they able to give us that kind of direction? Because they have lived with it. Yeah, they have really lived with that footage for months and months and months.
- [50:57]
A
I just think, I don't know. For me, it's the content I want to sit and watch on tv. Right. I would so much rather sit down and watch a docu series or watch a documentary, then whatever name the latest sitcom or the newest, you know, whatever the 25th spinoff of law and Order is or whatever. I really enjoy watching the content. I really enjoy the idea of telling the stories behind the content. I will say though, getting into, getting into the genre and having the opportunity and the access to the genre has definitely been significantly harder than I was expecting. Finding the right people, making the, making the right connections. But that was also part of the reason why, you know, going back to earlier, you mentioned about creating some of this content. I'm doing it and Paula Paul is doing it and there's a few of us that are doing it now. That's part of it is just, you know, trying to put yourself out there and getting recognized and identified as someone who can do this, who does do this, who wants to do this.
- [51:57]
B
I think exposure on LinkedIn is very good. I find Linked, LinkedIn is a very business receptive place for that kind of material. Not, not sharing your, you know, I mean it's not, it's not that I'm against people sharing their demos on LinkedIn. I think that's good. But that kind of original content that has, that is just this is me as a storyteller is, is very refreshing. And again, you, you probably remember years ago when I said to you, you know, this is the candy store. You know, this is the high end candy store. And the opportunities aren't like, okay, I'm going to be working on four series at one time or something like that. I mean, that might happen to somebody there. I mean I had a couple years where I was on three different series and all that and then suddenly There was nothing for two years. And then you do one documentary and then you're so, you know, it is more theatrical. They're looking for specific flavors. But I do believe that, you know, my goodness, you know, one of my former clients, you know, she did her self marketing and she actually hit up the PBS station in her local market and she ended up getting a half hour documentary that had to do with a crime situation in D.C. and, you know, and there you go, and then suddenly they'll look to you again. I don't think there are people who do get hired without auditioning because they worked on a particular series that might happen. But I think by and large, most producers these days, and it's a younger crop who say, you know what, the network wants to hear the audition on this specific script.
- [53:47]
A
Yeah.
- [53:47]
B
So we do have to prove ourselves there. You know, it's just part of our job.
- [53:55]
A
I had an opportunity to do a workshop recently with a buyer who is in the space, a production company that is creating documentaries and docuseries. And they did a workshop and it was really interesting. Two things that I found really interesting when I was in there. One was there was about four or five scripts and there was, I think, maybe a dozen of us that had the opportunity to read. And it's so interesting hearing five different people pick the same script and have totally five totally different interpretations of it. Okay, Right. And so I thought that was really interesting and just you never know what's going on out there. But then the other thing that I thought was interesting that she said was part of what you have to understand with some of this content is documentary is a genre that people are making a conscious choice to consume. Right. It's when you flip through to that channel, it's because you want to watch that show or you want to know more about that subject matter or whatever. And so the point that, that she was making was that we're there to tell the story, but maybe a little bit more background because we don't have to convince them at that point to stay and watch. We don't have to convince them that this is the, this is the show because they were actively looking for, you know what?
- [55:15]
B
It's your audience to lose. Yeah, that's what, that's what I tell people all the time. You have a captive audience. It's yours to lose if you bore them.
- [55:27]
A
Yep.
- [55:27]
B
See what I mean? So that, that's why I'm just, you know, telling people to lean into it. Because you're right, nobody is. Nobody is flipping as soon as they see the beginning of a document, if a documentary, a cold open, nobody is flipping unless they go, oh, I hate ghosts. Okay, well, then you're on the wrong channel.
- [55:50]
A
Yep, Yep.
- [55:51]
B
But if you see something engaging, you know, my wife was watching something, and she. And it's kind of like within. Within. Within 35 seconds, my wife knew. She goes, I'm going to record this.
- [56:06]
A
Yep.
- [56:08]
B
Because she knew it would be something that we would want to watch it. It's. It's something. In fact, we haven't watched it yet, but it refers to the year 1975 anyway, so there's a historical backdrop, and obviously it. It fits our. It fits our demographic because we were young adults back then.
- [56:29]
A
It's such a fun genre. I think maybe, too, as I've got. Maybe it's. As I've gotten older, I don't know. I just find I'm more into that. It's like, you know, when you're young, you're 20 years old, you're driving around, you're listening to the rock radio station, and your dad's listening to talk radio, and you're like, how can you possibly listen to talk radio? But then now here I am, I'm in my 40s, and as soon as I get in the car, I don't listen to music. I listen to a podcast. Right. When I was in my 20s. You know, you're watching whatever it was, must see TV on NBC, whatever the sitcom was or whatever. And now here I am in my 40s, and I'm like, I just want to learn something. Let me just put on a documentary or whatever. Just sort of, like, I'd rather sit down and read a book. But it really is a. It really is a genre that excites me. I just. I'm grateful to you for coming on and sharing some of your wisdom. Tom.
- [57:12]
B
I.
- [57:13]
A
You're so one of the favorite coaches that I've ever worked with, because your ability to direct and help me see the visuals, I needed that. I needed somebody who could walk me through that and help me with that process. And one of these days, I'm telling you, I'm gonna book one of these things. And I. You're gonna first people that I'm gonna share it with, because I. I'm just. I can't wait. But if somebody is interested in working with you, learning a little bit more about the. The genre. You still doing some coaching and still got some time?
- [57:40]
B
Yeah, I mean, I. You know. You know, I'm kind of at this point in my Career and everything is that I am more selective on my audition and what I want to do. And I'm also working on a. A particular project the last couple of years. It's called the Scream and Cry Horror Movie review and I do some writing on it as well as character narrators and things like that. So. I love coaching and I would say the majority of my coaching is in this area. Okay. My email address is. I mean they go by website T h o m pinto.com and then. Or email me directly. But if they want to look at what my body. Body of. Of work is, I. But I just want to tell you that I am at a point. What have I been doing the last year and a half? I have been working on a video course specifically for documentary and docu series.
- [58:44]
A
Okay.
- [58:44]
B
And I'm hoping that it's released sometime mid year typically. And that is going to be sort of my foundation when I work with somebody to. This is what we do. You talked about rules, we talked about considerations, breaking down styles. What is the world of TV narration, demo do's and don'ts, what to expect in a session, vocal characteristics. It's. It's just random audition tips and, and dare I say pintoisms. As. As one of my friends says. Okay, like that. Yeah. Well, I know she, she says that all the time. And, and so she goes. I want you to start using that. Anyway, the. The point is it's been a real joy for me to do this, to work on this. It's been a labor of love. And that's when you say you're talking about documentaries. I've had so much love. And you talk about rules. I get it. Let's say structure.
- [59:52]
A
Yeah, structure.
- [59:55]
B
This course helps me to get people in the ballpark.
- [60:00]
A
Right.
- [60:01]
B
And that's what my hope is. And so I'll let you know when that goes down there. But I appreciate getting together with you. And again. And you know, next Christmas. Don't. Come on, don't you. You hit me up a few years, don't be afraid to hit me up again. For part of the Mark Scott Christmas extravaganza, I will put your name at
- [60:24]
A
the top of the list right now. So we'll make sure that happens.
- [60:29]
B
Keep sharing those wonderful little educational, serene, humane posts that you do with your voice because it is so you. And it's much appreciated. Especially in a world of chaos. I'm not trying to get political, but I'm just saying there's just a lot of stuff flying around there. It's so nice to Hear and watch stuff like that. So thank you.
- [61:01]
A
The number one piece of feedback that I get on those things is it's so nice to hear a human narrating because so much of social media now is just this AI slop, right. And people are so frustrated with it. And I'm like, okay, well hey, if that's the thing that gets people to notice and drop a comment and gets a few more views on the video or whatever, then that's perfect. But Tom, this has been great. Thank you so much for your time and for your generosity. I'm excited about the course. I mean, we need to, we need people like you who have been there, done it, done it at the highest levels, done it successfully for the long time. We need you to help the generation coming up.
- [61:38]
B
It's a specific niche and that's what I mean. I just keep going back, going back. And I'm just going to say it was one of my former students who said to me, when are you going to do a course? And I don't want to use her name because she would be embarrassed on this. But then she sent me like a two and a half, three page outline of things that she learned from me and what could be covered and possibly. And I just, and I couldn't thank her enough. And so she's also been part of this and.
- [62:11]
A
Well, we will thank her too then.
- [62:13]
B
Yeah, yeah. And so I, you know, she, she'd been bugging me for two years and, and so like I said, it's still a work in progress because, you know, I've got to juggle other things and there's the writing and be honest with you, Mark. The other part of it is me being comfortable being on camera. You know what I mean?
- [62:34]
A
You've been the voice behind the camera for so many years now. I know, I know.
- [62:37]
B
So anyway, well, we're looking for, we'll
- [62:40]
A
be looking forward to that when it comes out too. And I'm, I'm sure that will go up on the website so people will be able to, to get access.
- [62:46]
B
I'll let you know, I'll let you know on that when it comes time. Anyway, thank you for, thank you for. Hey, easy hour, man. Thank you for, for this wonderful time. Okay, thank you.
- [62:56]
A
Next to your demos, what's your most important marketing tool? The answer is your website. You've got to have a place where you can not only house those demos, but where you can direct people to find out more about you, listen to those demos and ultimately be able to get in touch with you to book you for voiceover work, you need to have a reliable website. And that is why I trust upper level home hosting to host my website and Brad has been doing it for years. If you want to register a new domain, if you want to set yourself up with email, if you want to get a reliable web host that you can trust upper level hosting dot com.