Podcast Summary: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward

Episode Title: Amos: Messenger to the Collective with Rabbi Or Rose
Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation (Mike Petro, Paul Swanson, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Corey Wayne, Richard Rohr)
Guest: Rabbi Or Rose
Date: April 4, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode centers on Richard Rohr’s latest (and, he claims, last) book, The Tears of Things, specifically chapter two: “Amos: Messenger to the Collective.” The conversation investigates the role of the biblical prophet Amos as a voice calling out collective, systemic evil rather than scapegoating individuals. The episode explores how to transform anger at injustice into creative energy, and cautions against the traps of self-righteousness and despair. Special guest Rabbi Or Rose joins for an in-depth reflection on prophetic tradition through the lens of Jewish experience and the life and work of Abraham Joshua Heschel, discussing what it means to be prophetic in today’s fractured world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Prophets’ Critique: Collective Over Individual

[05:23 - 06:40]

• Richard Rohr explains that while traditional Christianity often overemphasizes individual guilt and shame, the prophets (like Amos) point instead to the collective—the culture and systems that perpetuate injustice.

• Quote:

  “They’re telling the individual they can carry dignity because they're children of Yahweh... but the collective is the only thing big enough to carry the shame.” (Richard Rohr, 05:23)

• Rohr frames salvation as not just for individuals but as a collective reality:

  “God is saving the collective. God is not saving individuals, although they're not exclusive.” (Richard Rohr, 06:40)

2. Amos: Counter-Cultural Prophecy

[06:57 - 10:18]

• Discussion of Amos’s historical context: a culture obsessed with luxury, dominance, and success as spiritual validation.
• Amos critiques the underlying narrative that equates status and wealth with divine blessing, a mindset Rohr sees mirrored in contemporary society.
• Quote:

  “Amos’s style of critique is not to push people off the ladder one at a time, but to tell them the narrative that's telling you to climb the top is wrong.” (Corey Wayne, 10:03)

3. Mimetic Theory and the Power of the Collective

[08:18 - 09:43]

• Rohr invokes René Girard’s mimetic theory: humans imitate each other, especially in valuing wealth and status. The elevation of billionaires to power is a symptom of collective idolization.

  “Human beings are entirely imitative... the mimetic thing has raised to the top of the government... It's unbelievable that the American democracy came to this.” (Richard Rohr, 08:18)

4. Collective Evil vs. Individual Culpability

[10:43 - 12:49]

• The group explores how systemic evils become normalized: society condemns greed at the individual level while extolling luxury and capitalism collectively.

• Quote:

  “Killing is wrong, but war is good. Greed is wrong, but luxury and capitalism are ideals.” (Paul Swanson, 12:01)

• Rohr points to public figures like Bernie Sanders and Pope Francis as modern voices naming collective evils—even at cost to themselves.

  “The collective doesn't love God, doesn't love the poor, doesn't love Jesus.” (Richard Rohr, 12:57)

5. The Challenges of Speaking to Power

[14:34 - 18:13]

• Naming and confronting systemic injustice can feel overwhelming to individuals.
• Carl Jung & Robert L. Moore’s two dangers:
  • Nihilism: “It’s too big, there’s nothing I can do.”
  • Narcissism: “I know the answer; I’m righteous.”
• Rohr’s antidote: Place faith in the gospel’s truth rather than in political solutions. The work is not in “heroics” but in daily, humble participation in the collective good.

  “The Democrats are not the reign of God, not the kingdom of God.” (Richard Rohr, 16:01)

6. Avoiding Self-Righteousness and Despair

[17:27 - 20:12]

• Self-righteousness and purity culture are traps—seeing oneself as outside or above the problem is part of the problem.

  “I’m part of the solution as soon as I realize I’m part of the problem.” (Corey Wayne, 17:28)

• Paul Swanson reframes individualism as root of these traps, emphasizing the healing that happens through joining and participating in the collective.

7. The Common Good and Collective Salvation

[21:08 - 24:46]

• Rohr offers the “principle of the common good” as central to Judeo-Christian ethics but underappreciated in modern spirituality.

• Reflects on American history (e.g. New Deal era) as rare moments when the collective truly served the common good.

• The positive vision of prophecy:

  “When facing big evil, we need bigger love to sustain us.” (Corey Wayne, 22:52)

8. Prophecy as Creative Love, Not Perpetual Anger

[26:23 - 29:17]

• Amos—and by extension, prophetic action—is about moving through anger to divine love, not remaining forever in threat or punishment.

  “Amos, like other prophets, does not stay forever in his initial anger and threat of punishment. Instead, he transforms his anger into generative, creative energy.” (Richard Rohr, 27:48)

• The invitation: Small, humble acts of communal love are more transformative than dramatic protests or grand displays.

  “Just love how love works... love works quietly and insistently... Trust that that’s what’s going to win history. That’s the remnant.” (Richard Rohr, 29:17)

Rabbi Or Rose: The Prophetic Legacy of Heschel & Living Prophecy

9. Abraham Joshua Heschel: Poetry, Prophecy, and Moral Grandeur

[34:41 - 41:39]

• Rabbi Or Rose recounts Heschel’s background: raised among mystical Hasidic masters, exiled by Nazis, family lost in Holocaust.

• Heschel’s philosophy: Human beings as God’s ineffable name—each person bears divine mystery and worth.

  “What is God’s most sacred and therefore ineffable, unspeakable name? Heschel was saying, the human being.” (Rabbi Or Rose, 34:43)

• Heschel’s work on the biblical prophets while escaping and surviving WWII compelled him to become an activist—partnering with Martin Luther King Jr., opposing Vietnam War, and consulting at Vatican II.

10. Defining the Prophet; The Narrow Ridge

[42:12 - 45:00]

• Rose, following Heschel: True prophets hold God and humanity together in heart and mind; they balance compassion with justice but remain humble, knowing they themselves are not perfect prophets.

  “There is so much to learn from the prophets... but we have to be very humble in working with the legacy... there’s a narrow ridge between righteous indignation and self-righteousness.” (Rabbi Or Rose, 42:12)

• Jewish idea of teshuvah (return/repentance): Ongoing return to the “spark” of divine image within.

11. Prophetic Action and the Danger of Pedestals

[45:23 - 51:33]

• Heschel’s activism—civil rights, peace, interfaith dialogue—was not always popular or comfortable, even among his own. This, Rose argues, is comforting: struggle, tension, and failure are part of prophetic vocation.

  “...it’s easy to wax poetically about the past and to place figures like Heschel and King on pedestals. They struggled. None of it was easy... and to me, that’s not a diminishment but actually an encouragement to all of us to think about what we can do.” (Rabbi Or Rose, 51:33)

12. Living With Anger and Creative Tension

[52:00 - 54:14]

• Rabbi Rose: In an age of politics of “shock and awe” and disregard for truth, the challenge is to balance resistance with collaboration, and not to fall into despair or divisiveness.

13. What Keeps Us Grounded?

[54:31 - 57:32]

• Rose offers Thomas Merton’s famous advice to activists:

  “Do not depend on the hope of results... concentrate not on the results, but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself.” (Thomas Merton, quoted by Rabbi Or Rose, 54:31)

• The true hope is not in achieving the desired results but in the “rightness” of the work which contributes, often invisibly, to a greater good.

14. The Human Divine Name and the Work of Repentance

[57:53 - 61:39]

• Even after witnessing utter cruelty, Heschel insisted that humans remain “of inestimable worth” because all bear the divine name.
• In the Book of Jonah, the prophet's disappointment at God's mercy for Nineveh serves as a reminder: Truth and justice must be married to compassion; ultimate truth is God’s alone.

15. Resisting Self-Righteousness; Collective Healing

[61:39 - 64:47]

• The work of prophecy is reminding the collective not only of its failings but also of its inherent worth and divine image.
• Self-righteousness and a stance of “purity” are dangerous; redeeming justice is always collective, never only for some.

16. Staying Sane in an Age of Overload

[65:16 - 67:38]

• Rose cites Rabbi Nachman’s advice: Before beginning your rituals or absorbing the news, break open your heart in honest prayer—expressing pain or even just voicing your wordlessness to God.
• Practically: Limit news consumption, connect with nature, focus on small acts of love and repair.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Richard Rohr: “The goal is always the criteria: the goal, the standard, is divine love—nothing less. And it's hard to learn divine love until we learn patience with history and forgiveness of history.” (26:23)

• Rabbi Or Rose: “There is so much to learn from the prophets... but we have to be very humble in working with the legacy... there’s a narrow ridge between righteous indignation and self-righteousness.” (42:12)

• Rabbi Or Rose: “If God is infinite and we are created in the image of the divine, then we are truly sacred beings in our core right... That does not mean, however, that we are not capable of doing terrible things. It also means that we need to be held accountable.” (57:53)

• Thomas Merton (quoted): “Do not depend on the hope of results... concentrate not on the results, but on the value, the rightness, the truth of the work itself.” (54:31)

• Carmen Acevedo Butcher (paraphrasing a rabbi’s teaching):

  “How do we know when the night has ended and the day has begun?... When you look into the face of a stranger and see your sister or brother. Until then, night is still with us.” (71:56)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Prophets condemn collective evil, not individuals: [05:23 – 06:40]
• Amos and critiquing the narrative of success: [06:57 – 10:18]
• Mimetic theory and imitative culture: [08:18 – 09:43]
• Normalization of collective evils: [11:12 – 12:49]
• Dangers: Nihilism vs. Narcissism: [14:52 – 16:38]
• Self-righteousness as a trap: [17:27 – 20:12]
• The Common Good and Collective Salvation: [21:08 – 24:46]
• Prophetic hope as creative love: [26:23 – 29:17]
• Introduction to Abraham Joshua Heschel: [34:41 – 41:39]
• Defining the Prophet (Heschel/Rose): [42:12 – 45:00]
• Heschel’s activism & prophetic struggle: [45:23 – 51:33]
• Living with anger, creative tension: [52:00 – 54:14]
• Merton’s advice to activists: [54:31 – 57:32]
• Holding the divine image in humanity: [57:53 – 61:39]
• Staying humble, avoiding self-righteousness: [61:39 – 64:47]
• Staying sane amid continuous injustice: [65:16 – 67:38]
• The rabbi’s parable: when does day begin? [71:56]

Suggested Challenges & Takeaways

• Face collective injustice honestly, but also anchor yourself in the remembering of our shared dignity and divine image.
• Limit news/media intake, and prioritize contemplative, grounding practices—prayer, time in nature, direct action.
• Resist the lure of self-righteous activism—instead, practice humility, remembering “I am part of the solution as soon as I realize I’m part of the problem.”
• Transform anger into creative service—not getting stuck in rage but letting it move us to generative, love-infused acts.
• Seek the common good in small, humble ways—trust that "love works quietly and insistently," and every act contributes to the remnant that sustains the world.
• Return continually (teshuvah) to the sacred center, practicing repentance as a spiraling return to our divine spark.

Final Thought

This episode is a profound dialogue on how prophetic imagination and action are urgently needed—and how not to lose ourselves in rage, self-importance, or despair, but to persist in creative, collective love and humility. As the rabbi’s story ended: the true dawn comes when we recognize our shared humanity in each face we encounter.