Podcast Summary: "Bonaventure with Sr. Margaret Carney"
Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Center for Action and Contemplation — Episode Date: February 7, 2025

Overview

This episode delves into the life, teachings, and enduring influence of St. Bonaventure, focusing on Chapter 11 of Richard Rohr's book, Eager to Love. Through conversations among CAC hosts Paul Swanson, Drew Jackson, Mike Petro, Richard Rohr, and special guest Sister Margaret Carney, listeners are invited into profound theological and mystical reflections on Bonaventure’s synthesis of head and heart, his role in shaping Franciscan spirituality, and the relevance of his vision for the world today. The episode is a rich tapestry of contemplative wisdom, practical insight, and candid discussion about beauty, creation, humility, shadow, and living theology.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Framework (00:08–03:38)

• The episode focuses on "To yield to love is to return to the source," exploring Bonaventure’s key themes.
• Drew Jackson highlights Bonaventure's "three great truths" of emanation, exemplarism, and consummation as central to contemplative Christianity:
  • "What does it mean to be on this journey from God to God, from love to love? That seems to so consume Bonaventure’s work and animate both Father Richard and Sister Margaret." — Drew Jackson (02:09)

2. Richard Rohr on Bonaventure — The Synthesis of Head and Heart (03:55–26:14)

• Richard Rohr recounts his personal discovery of Bonaventure, emphasizing the blend of mystical insight and intellectual rigor often overshadowed by Aquinas.
  • "He has to be appreciated as a mystic. He was in the great school of theology in the 13th century was Paris and he was a master there for 16 years." — Richard Rohr (04:40)
• Bonaventure’s spirituality embraces the material world, asserting that all creation reveals God, counteracting dualistic tendencies.
  • "To love God and to love good things is one and the same." — Richard Rohr, quoting Origin and relating to Bonaventure (16:00)
  • "Everything was a footprint, an effect of God…open your eyes…so that in all creatures you may see, hear, praise, love and worship, glorify and honor your God, lest the whole world rise against you." — Richard Rohr, quoting Bonaventure (13:07)
• Bonaventure's "Itinerarium Mentis in Deum"—the soul’s journey into God—frames the mystical path as transformative, cosmic, and accessible to all:
  • "This is all from his perhaps most famous book, which is called, interestingly enough, the Itinerarium...the soul's journey into God." — Richard Rohr (11:57)
• Emphasis on integration, not separation, of intellect and heart; a lesson against seeking accolades or intellectual accomplishments as ends in themselves:
  • "Seek fire, not understanding." — Richard Rohr, quoting Bonaventure (07:19)
  • "It's so simple. And, you know, it's like Einstein said, the truth has to be simple and beautiful. Yeah. And this is theology in its simplicity and in its beauty." — Richard Rohr (23:21)
• Bonaventure’s teaching on humility expressed in the anecdote about his cardinal’s hat:
  • "When they brought him his cardinal’s hat and he was washing dishes and he told them to hang it on a tree while he finished washing dishes." — Paul Swanson (24:02)

3. Bonaventure’s Three Great Truths (19:49–22:50)

Richard Rohr explains the framework:

• Emanation: Everything flows from God; knowing origin reveals identity.

• Exemplarism: Each being exemplifies something unique about the divine.

• Consummation: All things return to their source, completing the circle.

  • "Everything emanates from God and things are known by their origin…Exemplarism, in your uniqueness, what do you exemplify about the nature of God…Consummation…we return where we started." — Richard Rohr (20:08–20:54)

• He offers a critique of modern secularism as rootless, explaining how Bonaventure’s framework provides a sense of home and belonging.

4. Sister Margaret Carney on the Context and Legacy of Bonaventure (26:48–31:55)

• Sets Bonaventure within the challenging academic, political, and cultural climate of medieval Paris.
  • "He was a highly, highly trained academic...However, where he needed to do something that you might call popularized...was when he wrote for the friars to help them become formed in the Franciscan way of life." — Sr. Margaret Carney (28:28)
• Stresses that, despite a Franciscan suspicion toward academic study, Bonaventure saw intellectual pursuit as a pathway to God when deeply rooted in faith.
  • "Bonaventure was an example of that, for sure." — Sr. Margaret Carney (31:10)

5. Mysticism, Metaphors, and Teaching for All (32:12–44:19)

• Bonaventure’s teaching is imbued with poetic, experiential, accessible language—using metaphors like bridges, footprints (vestigia), and mirrors.
  • "When you speak of a bridge, his home was on the top of a volcanic mountain...So Bonaventure and bridge really go together." — Sr. Margaret Carney (32:41)
  • "The word is vestigia, which in English would be vestige. But the medieval meaning was footprint, or a print left by something." — Sr. Margaret Carney (42:30)
• Bonaventure balances the headiness of theological concepts with practices that ground and humble the scholar.
• Famous passage recited by incoming St. Bonaventure students:
  • "Seek grace, not instruction, desire, not understanding, Seek the groaning of prayer over diligent reading. Seek the spouse more than the teacher. Seek God, not man, Darkness, not clarity, not light, but the fire itself." — Bonaventure, cited by Sr. Margaret Carney (38:00, 70:29)
• Bonaventure issues a "warning label" to academics: learning must lead back to God, not to pride or mere accomplishment.

6. Theology of Creation & Contemporary Relevance (44:19–51:23)

• Bonaventure sees creation as the "first step" in knowing and loving God—a direct challenge to Manichaean suspicion of matter.
  • "Bonaventure was breaking ground in the Middle Ages to point to the fact that creation is the first, first step in our learning who God is." — Sr. Margaret Carney (44:38)
• Urges the contemporary church to recover Bonaventure’s vision amidst environmental crises, aligning it with the message of Pope Francis and Laudato Si.
  • "Shame on us that in this day of crisis in the environment, we are not constantly reminding people of Bonaventure's insistence this is first in the development of our faith." — Sr. Margaret Carney (44:57)

7. Bonaventure’s Shadow and Institutional Legacy (51:37–60:47)

• The episode does not shy away from Bonaventure’s shadow: systematization and clericalism, control over Francis’ legacy, and political compromises.
  • "Bonaventure did damage. He moved the friar sort of away from the purity of the early years of the life of Francis." — Sr. Margaret Carney (52:59)
  • Contextualizes Bonaventure’s actions as necessary responses to church politics, not simply rigidness or loss of mysticism.
  • "All the great leaders had a shadow, if you will, of not doing what, in a perfect world, you would do. But it isn’t a perfect world." — Sr. Margaret Carney (57:13)

8. Practical Application: Bonaventure for Today (60:32–68:44)

• Bonaventure’s legacy is alive in Franciscan educational institutions, shaping generations in beauty, goodness, justice, and practical spirituality.

  • "It permeates that campus...At Bonaventure, I learned what happiness is." — Sr. Margaret Carney, citing Thomas Merton and her own experience as president (64:36)

• His teachings invite listeners to seek God in creation, embrace beauty and joy, and infuse learning with love and meaning.

  • "You are here to help us increase the gross annual product of God's goodness in the world. That's what we're supposed to be doing." — Sr. Margaret Carney (62:23)

• The conversion of beauty and intellectual formation into real-world morality, vocation, and justice.

9. Concluding Reflections & Invitation (68:44–72:48)

• Paul and Drew reflect on how Sister Margaret brings Bonaventure’s teaching alive, embodying the unity of heart and mind.
• The Bonaventure passage is recited again as an invitation to listeners to seek not just knowledge, but transformative, experiential love:
  • "Seek grace, not instruction, desire, not understanding, Seek the groaning of prayer over diligent reading. Seek the spouse more than the teacher. Seek God, not man, Darkness, not clarity, not light, but the fire itself." — Bonaventure (70:29)
• Listeners are encouraged to carry forward this teaching—embracing both the hits and the shadows—in order to co-create a world where "everything and everyone belongs."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On integrating head and heart:

• "Seek fire, not understanding." — Richard Rohr, quoting Bonaventure (07:19)
• "You don’t have to be an intellectual—even though he was." — Richard Rohr (23:43)
• "What does it mean to be on this journey from love to love?" — Drew Jackson (02:09)

On creation’s spiritual significance:

• "To love God and to love good things is one and the same." — Richard Rohr, quoting Origin, relating to Francis and Bonaventure (16:00)
• "Creation is the first, first step in our learning who God is." — Sr. Margaret Carney (44:38)

On Bonaventure’s humility:

• "When they brought him his cardinal’s hat and he was washing dishes and he told them to hang it on a tree while he finished washing dishes." — Paul Swanson (24:02)

On the perennial wisdom and shadow of the tradition:

• "All the great leaders had a shadow, if you will, of not doing what, in a perfect world, you would do. But it isn’t a perfect world." — Sr. Margaret Carney (57:13)
• "Not a rupture, but a waterfall—that’s going to stick." — Paul Swanson, on the relationship between Jesuit and Franciscan spiritualities (68:16)

On beauty, teaching, and transformation:

• "You are here to help us increase the gross annual product of God's goodness in the world." — Sr. Margaret Carney (62:23)
• "Seek God, not man, Darkness, not clarity, not light, but the fire itself." — Bonaventure, as recited throughout the episode (38:00, 70:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Thematic Setup & Introduction: 00:08 – 03:38
• Richard Rohr on Bonaventure as Mystic and Theologian: 03:55 – 18:08
• Integration and Cosmic Vision: 18:08 – 26:14
• Sister Margaret Carney’s Contextual Insights: 26:48 – 38:49
• Head, Heart, and Bonaventure’s Warnings: 38:49 – 44:38
• Creation, Environmental Crisis, and Theological Relevance: 44:38 – 51:23
• Institutional Shadow and Legacy: 51:37 – 60:47
• Practical Application for Today: 60:47 – 68:44
• Closing Reflections and Invitation: 68:44 – 72:48

Final Thoughts

This episode is both an exploration and an invitation—challenging listeners to embody Bonaventure’s wisdom by loving God with heart and mind, receiving creation as a sacramental mirror of divine love, and living out faith with humble joy and compassionate presence. Through the lived experience and deep scholarship of Sister Margaret Carney, alongside the contemplative teaching of Richard Rohr, Bonaventure's integration of intellect and mysticism, humility and scholarship, beauty and justice, remains strikingly relevant for personal and communal transformation today.