Episode Overview

Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Episode: Ezekiel: Redemption and the Grace of God with Randy Woodley
Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation (Mike Petro, Paul Swanson, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Drew Jackson)
Guests: Fr. Richard Rohr, Reverend Dr. Randy Woodley

This episode explores Chapter 9 (“Ezekiel, Redemption, and the Grace of God”) of Richard Rohr’s book The Tears of Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage, diving deep into the prophetic symbolism of Ezekiel, the paradoxes of grace, and the ways in which both the biblical text and Indigenous story can guide us toward universal restoration and responsibility. With insights from Richard Rohr and indigenous wisdom keeper Dr. Randy Woodley, the conversation circles around themes such as the sacred clown/trickster, the defeat of ego, the wounds of empire, and the healing vision of harmony.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Prophets, Holy Fools, and Tricksters: Ezekiel's Role in Breaking Open the Divine (04:00–10:00)

• Ezekiel as Holy Fool: Ezekiel stands out as a prophet who is described as “quirky” and “visionary,” whose symbolic and eccentric behaviors align with the ancient archetype of the “holy fool”—truth-tellers who use disruption and spectacle to break complacency and reveal deeper truths.

  • "There needs to be someone who reveals the shadow side of religion, the temptation of religion to be about being nice." – Richard Rohr (05:20)

• Freedom from Social Approval: Rohr argues prophets must push past the compulsion to please or displease the dominant system, landing instead in a transcendent interior freedom.

  • “To risk being disliked, to risk being judged, or even strange.” (06:09)
  • "If you're a pleaser, you're trying to align with the dominant system... If you're a displeaser and your only purpose is to push back, you're still a slave to the system." – Mike Petro (06:41–07:04)

2. Paradox of Grace: Worthiness, Law, and Ego (11:00–21:49)

• Grace as Unpredictable Gift: Grace “blows apart” systems of control and the just-world belief that love must be earned, operating outside of human logic or ego’s payment/reward framework.

  • "Grace is not what we deserve by doing the right things, but rather a gift freely given by the Creator in the very act of creation." – Richard Rohr (14:28)
  • “As such, grace is strangely a punishment for the ego, which always wants to believe in payments and punishments.” – Richard Rohr (14:28)

• Transforming Shame: Rohr describes how Ezekiel models both exposing unworthiness and then lavishing forgiveness—a dynamic central to the biblical story.

  • "To be shamed into love by being unworthy of it. Oh my God. That's it." – Richard Rohr (12:11)
  • The hosts connect this to personal experience: the freedom of embracing imperfection and letting oneself be loved despite it.
  • “The only perfection available to us is our ability to accept our imperfection.” – Mike Petro (22:25)

• Transactional Religion Critiqued: Rohr critiques the “ledger” model—religion as a merit-based economy that infiltrates even our spiritual lives.

  • "The egoic world is the capitalist world. We don't realize what a number capitalism has done on the soul." – Richard Rohr (17:37)
  • The link between self-worth and lovable-ness is “so deep in the psyche.”

3. Symbolism and Story: Prophetic Images that Disorient and Renew (33:32–39:00, 47:00–54:40)

Richard Rohr on Ezekiel’s Symbolism

• Symbols to Shock and Reorient: The bizarre images in Ezekiel (wheels within wheels, eating a scroll, dry bones) operate as “counterfeit” versions of growth—the spectacle “shocks the ego” and invites new ways of seeing.
  • “He describes the wheels within wheels filled with eyes…He was foreseeing the complexity of our world right now” (33:36)
  • "Eating the scroll...is moving from knowing to realization...When it grabs you in the belly, touches your heart, you’re never the same." – Richard Rohr (35:18)
  • “Our job too is to breathe together with God upon the dry bones that are always present throughout our world and make them live just as God has breathed on ours.” – Richard Rohr (36:32)

Randy Woodley on Story, Tricksters, and Symbol

• Indigenous Perspective on Sacred Clowns: Ezekiel functions as a trickster or sacred clown in Indigenous terms—truth-tellers who bring imbalance and stretch perception.

  • “They bring us a sense of imbalance, of discombobulation…They're truth tellers, but not in the way you expect.” – Randy Woodley (47:30)
  • Example of Hopi sacred clowns exposing hidden truths through humor and spectacle (51:31).

• The Power of Symbols: Symbols have the ability to disorient, challenge constructed reality, and call us back to deeper truths.

  • “Symbols are made to disorient us...They are made to take us out of the water and bring us back into reality.” – Randy Woodley (53:56)

4. Countering Empire: The Mindset of Domination vs. the Harmony Way (56:13–70:41)

• Critique of Empire and Hierarchy: Both Rohr and Woodley trace how Christianity became entwined with empire through hierarchy, commodification, and domination. This stands opposed to Jesus’ model of servant-leadership and community.

  • “Any time you compromise with Caesar…you lose what's essential of the faith. Because that's exactly what keeps us different, is by not adapting those anti-human structures.” – Randy Woodley (59:00)
  • “Domination and oppression run through Western Christianity like the threads of a blood-soaked tapestry.” – Randy Woodley (56:13)

• Oral Storytelling as Anti-Empire: Woodley and others discuss how oral tradition preserves the nuance and adaptability of sacred stories in contrast to what gets lost or solidified in written texts.

  • “Writing things down doesn't make them more accurate. It actually narrows down their focus.” – Randy Woodley (61:18)

5. Harmony and Universal Responsibility: Indigenous Wisdom for Restoration (64:45–79:22)

• Vision of Elohei (the Harmony Way): Woodley introduces the Cherokee concept of Elohei—an existence in which people live in reciprocal harmony with each other, the earth, and all creation. This stands in stark contrast to individualistic or anthropocentric models.

  • “Elohei means that people are at peace, not at war, the earth is being cared for and producing in abundance…no one goes hungry…no one is a stranger for very long.” – Randy Woodley (69:53)

• Universal Responsibility vs. Universal Condemnation: The hosts reflect on Rohr’s point that the biblical vision for humanity is one of universal responsibility—that our work is to restore, not judge.

  • “Universal responsibility would have been so much better of a lesson than the almost completely universal damnation which our present reading of the rules and scripture implies and predicts.” – Richard Rohr, quoted by hosts (74:26)

• Interconnected Healing Across Generations: The indigenous practice of considering the next seven generations encourages decisions that transcend immediate or selfish gain, emphasizing the interconnectedness of all beings in time.

  • “When you make a decision for your people, you look seven generations down…We'd be a whole lot more wise in the kinds of decisions we made.” – Randy Woodley (76:42)

• Concrete Steps Toward Harmony: Woodley challenges listeners to enact small, local seeds of harmony and justice in their communities—mustard seeds of transformation, not grand, ego-driven crusades.

  • “Start exactly where you are…begin to treat each other and those non-human creatures around us with respect and love.” (78:00)
  • "It's about mustard seeds, right?" (79:17)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grace & Worthiness:
  “Grace is strangely a punishment for the ego, which always wants to believe in payments and punishments.” —Richard Rohr [14:28]

• On Storytelling:
  “The point is not the truth of the story, but the truth in the story.” —Randy Woodley [47:30]

• On Universal Restoration:
  “The apocatastasis…we are made of love by love for love, so love will win out eventually because we cannot indefinitely fight our nature and our maker.” —Mike Petro [27:02]

• On Breaking the Ledger:
  “I will treat you as respect for my own name requires, not as your own conduct deserves. It’s God being true to God’s self, not being true to us.” —Richard Rohr [17:00]

• On Harmony/Elohei:
  “Elohei means people are treating each other fairly and that no one is a stranger for very long.” —Randy Woodley [69:53]

• On Small Acts of Justice:
  “Plant small seeds...Mustard seeds.” —Randy Woodley [79:17]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:00–10:00: Discussion of Ezekiel as trickster, holy fool, and the need to confront social/religious niceness
• 11:00–21:49: Deep-diving into grace, unworthiness, the ego, and breaking away from transactional Christianity
• 33:32–39:00: Exploring Ezekiel’s symbolic visions (“wheels within wheels”, “eating the scroll”, “dry bones”), the role and power of symbol
• 47:00–54:40: Randy Woodley on Indigenous storytelling, tricksters, and the function of symbol in spiritual life
• 56:13–70:41: Critique of Christianity’s marriage with empire, oral tradition as resistance, the biblical vision of harmony
• 64:45–79:22: Vision of Elohei (Harmony Way), universal responsibility, healing across generations, small acts of restoration
• 85:31: Drew Jackson reads his poem “Let this Silence Become a Bridge” tying Ezekiel’s vision to the call of living prophetic hope

Flow and Tone

The conversation is rich, contemplative, and at turns poetic, balancing biblical exegesis, autobiography, humor, and indigenous wisdom. Rohr repeatedly invites listeners to sit in paradoxes and let go of “worthiness games,” while Woodley builds images of harmony, community, and interrelatedness. The hosts bring energetic curiosity, seamlessly weaving Richard’s teachings with the guest’s perspectives and their own lived experiences.

Actionable Takeaways

• Embrace the paradox of being both unworthy and wholly loved.
• Seek to become “holy fools”—willing to challenge the status quo, without being reactionary.
• Allow grace to disrupt ego’s need for control and transaction.
• Recognize the power of symbol and story to open hearts and new perspectives.
• Challenge systems of domination—work for harmony in small, communal, practical acts.
• Practice universal responsibility: healing is for everyone, every generation, all creation.
• Let silence, listening, and contemplation lead you into authentic action.

Final Reflection

This episode calls listeners to let go of transactional faith, to embrace the sometimes chaotic, often surprising movements of grace, and to ground themselves in the restorative, interconnected wisdom offered by both the prophets and indigenous teachers. Ezekiel’s visions and the Harmony Way together urge us to co-create a world where everything—and everyone—belongs.

Recommended Next Step:
Consider reflecting on where you most need grace in your own life, and how you might become a small seed of harmony within your community and for future generations.