Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Episode: "Francis with Jon Sweeney"
Date: February 21, 2025
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Featured Guest: John M. Sweeney
Overview
This episode serves as the season finale for the podcast’s exploration of Richard Rohr’s foundational book Eager to Love, focusing on the life and radical spiritual witness of St. Francis of Assisi. The conversation weaves together Rohr’s insights, the lived Franciscan tradition, and guest John M. Sweeney’s extensive scholarship on Francis. The aim is to invite listeners to consider how Francis’s “natural spiritual genius”—namely, his simplicity, openness to love, bold embrace of poverty, and solidarity with the vulnerable—offers a blueprint for living out contemplative Christian wisdom in today’s complex world. The episode bridges toward the next season, which will address prophetic wisdom for today’s culture through Rohr’s forthcoming book The Tears of Things.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Franciscan Lineage and Contemplative Love
[00:08–04:54]
- Paul Swanson notes how the season’s journey through Eager to Love is anchored in the Franciscan lineage, connecting Jesus, Francis, and Richard Rohr.
- Drew Jackson highlights that the radical call to love at the heart of Francis is a direct inheritance from Jesus: “If you could sum up, you know, all the law and the prophets, it comes down to love God, love your neighbor as yourself, that the core, the center, is love.” – Drew Jackson [02:18]
Francis’s Radical Simplicity & Universal Love
[05:31–12:21]
- Richard Rohr describes Francis as a “universal man”, illustrating how Francis continually rediscovered Christ’s message outside religious and social boundaries imposed by his Italian Catholicism.
- “He got the upside down nature of the kingdom of God. He really did. It wasn’t an achievement, it wasn’t an accomplishment, it wasn’t a performance.” – Richard Rohr [08:56]
- Francis’s focus is on God’s goodness and “rejoicing in littleness, in nothingness,” rather than self-worth or personal achievement.
Francis as Trickster & Critic of Power
[16:46–24:10]
- Rohr calls Francis a “divine trickster”: “One who colors outside the lines, but not in an angry or rebellious way, but in a creative, whimsical, often humorous way that surprises even the elect… He tricks you into the truth.” [17:31]
- The trickster’s humble challenge to established power is critical for both church and societal systems, echoing the prophetic tradition.
The Danger of Sanitizing Francis
[21:12–24:10]
- Jenna Kuiper and others discuss the tendency to “file down” Francis’s sharper edges, reducing him to a safe, pious figure, rather than grappling with his radical witness.
- Rohr reflects that after the Council of Trent, Franciscans lost their “trickster” edge and became more conformist: “We were diocesan priests in brown robes ... we lost the trickster almost entirely.” [21:46]
On the Simplicity of Franciscan Social Justice
[25:15–27:32]
- Rohr says, “Francis and Jesus... universal social justice agenda, is to live a simple life ... Simplicity of lifestyle is the most universal social justice ideal I can think of.” [25:15]
- The challenge is to break free from measuring sticks of value, achievement, and the reward system.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
The Ever-Expanding Love
- “I did not know what love was until I encountered one that kept opening and opening and opening.” — Christian Wiman, quoted by Paul Swanson and Jenna Kuiper [12:48–12:53]
- Rohr reflects:
- “Explaining the almost hatred of Christianity today is many were given a supposed love that kept closing and closing and closing…How could we be so stingy with what is infinite?” [13:04]
- The genuine spirit of Francis and Christ is a love that continually expands, not contracts.
Facing Our Fear & Practicing Hospitality
[38:02–42:26] with John M. Sweeney
- Sweeney recounts moving to a less privileged area of Milwaukee, and the visceral moment of “a homeless guy sitting at my kitchen table having coffee”—his first reaction was fear, quickly transformed into hospitality through his wife’s example.
- “I was embarrassed that that was my first reaction. But it was a learning process, and life is a learning process.” – John M. Sweeney [42:10]
Sensitivity as Genius
- “I think that’s part of Francis’ spiritual genius. He was deeply sensitive and he didn’t run from it ... he wanted things to affect him.” – John M. Sweeney [43:31]
- Drew Jackson draws parallels with the struggle to stay sensitive in a world that demands self-protection: “How do I not numb myself to it and realize... I do that as part of a survival mechanism?” [45:36]
The Story of the Wolf of Gubbio
- The story of Francis confronting and brokering peace with a “terrifying” wolf:
- “His first response is that he goes out to meet the wolf. And that is amazing to me... what are you going to do with your fear other than facing it?” – John M. Sweeney [48:18]
Simplicity as Radical Act
- “There's a real radicality in authentic simplicity.” – Mike Petro [52:34]
- Rohr and others emphasize the invitation to radicalize everyday life by meeting what and who is right in front of us with unguarded love.
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Francis and the Franciscan lineage [00:08–04:54]
- Francis as a “universal man” and radical simplicity [05:31–12:21]
- The expanding love of Francis and the church’s tendency to close in [12:30–14:47]
- Francis’s dangerous, reformative edge; the trickster archetype [16:46–24:10]
- Losing the radical Francis in history [21:46–24:10]
- Franciscan simplicity and justice [25:15–27:32]
- Hospitality, fear, and daily practice (John Sweeney’s personal stories) [38:02–42:26]
- Francis’s spiritual sensitivity and genius [43:31–45:36]
- Facing the wolf: courage in the face of fear [48:18–52:34]
- Application: faithful, daily contemplative practice [64:44–65:49]
- Drew Jackson’s closing poem and spiritual invitation [71:31–74:55]
Memorable Quotes
- “The trickster tricks you into the truth.” – Richard Rohr [17:31]
- “Contrarian. For love. I like that.” – Opie [24:06]
- “I've done what is mine to do. Now you do what is yours to do.” – Attributed to St. Francis, discussed by host team [24:13]
- “We’re all just...playing in a sandbox seeking to love as God loves. So what's his point of evaluating?” – Richard Rohr [29:11]
- “We all are wolf-like, and we all need to be fed.” – John M. Sweeney [51:27]
Practical Takeaways
On Franciscan Practice:
- True Franciscan spirituality is practical, replicable, and messy: opening our homes, breaking down barriers, and welcoming the wounded.
- The call is to let ourselves be affected—by God, by the suffering of others, by the beauty and wounds of the world—and respond with presence rather than withdrawal.
On Living the Prophetic Path:
- Like Francis, prophetic living means holding the tension between anger at injustice, grief for suffering, and ultimately transformative love: “Go back to a place of wound and love at the same time.” – John M. Sweeney [62:58]
- Keep a daily contemplative practice to maintain attentiveness and sensitivity.
Closing Reflection
Drew Jackson closes with a poem (beginning [71:31]) connecting the Franciscan invitation to love what and who is right in front of us, no matter how fearful or inconvenient. The poem, inspired by Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the rich man, calls listeners into courageous, simple love in the face of discomfort and self-protection.
“I wish I could fill his hands with cash.
I wish I could fill my heart with compassion.
I wish I could fill my mouth with courage to ask his name...”
— Drew Jackson [71:31]
Final Invitation
Listeners are encouraged to carry forward the Franciscan legacy—not as mere idealists, but as everyday practitioners of radical love, courageous openness, and hospitality, embracing both the wound and the gift of the real world right in front of them.
This summary captures the spirit, themes, and pivotal moments of the episode, offering both a thorough overview and a direct connection to the original voices and wisdom shared.