Podcast Summary

Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward

Episode: Good Trouble: An Introduction to The Tears of Things
Date: March 7, 2025
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Main Guests: Fr. Richard Rohr, Mike Petro, Paul Swanson, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Drew Jackson

1. Episode Overview

This special season premiere gathers the hosts and Fr. Richard Rohr to introduce his latest (and self-described final) book, The Tears of Things: Prophetic Wisdom for an Age of Outrage. The episode sets the stage for a deep, year-long exploration of the prophetic tradition, nondual consciousness, and how contemplative insights can shape action in a time marked by fear, division, and longing for justice.

The hosts reflect on the "Good Trouble" of prophetic witness, inspired by John Lewis, and invite listeners into a journey of reading, reflection, and conversation aimed at embodying loving truth in a hurting world.

2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Podcast and Season Structure

• The hosts introduce the show’s format and purpose (00:09–02:51), noting that previous seasons explored Richard Rohr’s classic works chapter by chapter, with or without prior reading, fostering accessible deep dives.
• This season, the pace slows—one episode per month, empowering listeners to immerse themselves chapter by chapter in a shared pilgrimage through Rohr’s new and possibly final book (02:01–02:51).

B. Setting the Stage: Why This Book, Why Now?

• Rohr asserts this will be his last book, written “with gratitude” despite age and declining energy (04:02–04:19).

• Paul Swanson observes the timeliness: “Our listeners are tuning in in a rapidly changing world... This book is going to be such a good teacher for all of us at exactly the moment that it’s coming in” (04:19–04:54).

  Richard's Blessing:

  “Help this book and these words to bring some loving truth to our world... not more division, not more hatred, but understanding. And we know that understanding... means to stand under a truth, to let the truth lead and not the person.”
  — Richard Rohr (04:54)

C. The Prophetic Tradition: More Than Prediction

• Rohr centers the prophets as “much more central to the Hebrew scriptures than even they realized,” arguing they paved the way for Jesus’s message and method (05:44–08:44).
• He reframes John the Baptist: not as the ultimate prophet but as a transitional figure. Rohr contrasts "win-lose" logic (leading to violence and scapegoating) with the deeper invitation of Jesus and the prophets—critiquing not just individuals, but collective, systemic evil (05:44–11:18).
• Key Quote:

  “Unless we hear that we don’t build a new foundation on something greater than the win-lose, all-or-nothing worldview of John the Baptist.”
  — Richard Rohr (08:44)

D. Prophetic Critique: Beyond Blame

• Hosts discuss contemporary parallels: “We look to very powerful singular politicians... who are doing what [listeners] experience as evil... But you’re also encouraging us to go past the one person who can become the person that we hang all our anger on.” — Paul Swanson (12:34)
• Rohr insists on moving beyond scapegoating individuals, instead focusing on "cultural evil" and the systems that enable injustice (13:08).
• He advocates for lament and sadness as a necessary alternative to anger, enabling genuine transformation and hope (13:34–14:22).

E. Embracing Paradox — “The Great Nevertheless”

• The introduction of the book is grounded by a poem (read at 14:57) and a passage from Ezekiel (17:23), both emphasizing the complexity of holding grief and joy, anger and love, simultaneously.

• Key Quote:

  “The world is horrible, falling apart, and it’s absolutely magnificent, filled with grace. At the same time... If you concentrate on one, you get negative, bitter and violent. If you only preach the second, you get naive and simplistic.”
  — Richard Rohr (16:13–17:21)

• Rohr credits theologian Walter Brueggemann’s phrase “the great nevertheless”—the move from despair to hope:

  “Divine hope is not rationally concluded. It isn’t created by logic. It’s created by gift.”
  — Richard Rohr (18:59)

F. Prophecy, Contemplation, and Nondual Thinking

• The prophetic/contemplative mind refuses binary thinking. True prophets and contemplatives recognize “good and evil coexist” (21:11–22:04), embracing paradox as the nature of reality and transformation.

• Key Exchange:

  Paul Swanson: “If a contemplative is a truth seer... wouldn’t they also be a truth speaker?”
  Rohr: “...We’re still... unconditionally and infinitely loved by God. Few people historically get to that.”
  (22:25–23:44)

• The paradox extends to seeing both our complicity and our belovedness—prophets demand justice but never from outside the community, always as part of it.

G. Wrestling With the Tradition: Activism, Humility, and Growth

• Rohr discusses the tension between nondualism and justice work:

  “The very struggle itself... creates this paradoxical mind. The more you’ve struggled with an issue... it’s always more subtle. There’s no total good guys and total bad guys. That isn’t saying you cannot do a rabid critique of the gun culture.” (25:24)

• Growth as the essence of biblical faith:

  “We tried to give a finality to every word in the Bible, when in fact they’re a recipe for development, for change, for growing up...”
  (33:01)

• Christianity should be recognized as a path of “maturing into transformation” (34:48), culminating in learning to “love as God loves” (35:07).

H. Humility, Self-Knowledge, and the Danger of Projection

• Rohr warns against projecting shadow on others:

  “When we lack self-knowledge, we will unconsciously project our disliked and unknown self onto others, condemning them for the very faults we share. It is no wonder then, that most of the prophets were murdered.”
  (37:14)

• The journey requires beginning from humility:

  “We all and forever need mercy. One wonders what our theologies and worship would look like if we always began with an honest statement of our not knowing the true nature of holy mystery.”
  (38:36)

3. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On truth and love:

  “Truth without love is not transformational truth. Truth from a cruel heart undoes its message.”
  — Richard Rohr (03:06, as read by Paul Swanson)

• The role of struggle:

  “What you’re leading me to is the title of the book. Damn it. I want to be righteous, but all I could do is cry. Angrily cry… God is willing to love those who are wrong and work with those who are wrong. Once you get that...” — Richard Rohr (27:04–28:46)

• On religion's risks and rewards:

  “Religion is about a shattering encounter with an experience that breaks all the rules. Why it’s so often the worst is it creates the best cover for the ego imaginable... a recipe for delusion.” — Richard Rohr (30:01–31:21)

• Reading the prophets as a journey of maturity:

  “The prophets started out... angry, wrathful, judgmental... but they changed and grew up. This is the theme of themes in this small book... a journey of refining the real message by fire until we reach the final stage of joy and hopefulness.” — As quoted by Paul Swanson from the book (32:31–33:01)

• On the innocence and necessity of change:

  “We create a religion that idealizes not changing at all... Just getting your childhood understanding of Jesus... and hold on to that all your life.” — Richard Rohr (33:53)

4. Practical Guidance for the Journey

Approaching The Tears of Things

• Read slowly, with others if possible. The text “rewards rereading.” Take notes, write questions, mark passages that speak to you or spark discomfort (44:17–46:31).

• Engage as a spiritual practice (Lectio Divina suggested). The book is “invitational,” encouraging dialogue with the author and with community.

• Advice from Carmen Acevedo Butcher:

  “This book is magnificent at really piercing the illusion of separateness, that we’re all in this together and we’re all trying to develop and mature... once we start sharing our stories, we all see we have so much in common.” (47:12)

• Advice from Drew Jackson:

  “Just read it slowly. Don’t rush... Open yourself to allow it to do the work that it’s intended to do.” (45:25)

Why This Book, Why Now?

• The conversation identifies an urgent need to recover prophetic imagination amid global crises, polarization, and despair.
• Drew Jackson argues for greater engagement with the prophetic tradition, both in faith communities and as a cultural resource, lamenting its neglect and noting its centrality to the Black church (48:36).

5. Concepts to Watch For in “The Tears of Things”

• The Pattern of Growth: Rohr’s familiar “order, disorder, reorder” or “construction, deconstruction, reconstruction,” and in this book, anger–sadness–love.

  • Anger arises at injustice (not to be bypassed);
  • Sadness and lament allow for deeper engagement, move us beyond destructive rage;
  • Love grounds prophetic action and reforms compassion from wisdom, not reaction. (59:38–69:51)

• Good Trouble:
  Named after John Lewis’s civil rights phrase, the introduction frames prophecy as “good and necessary trouble”—loving resistance, often through lament and critique as acts of solidarity and transformation (70:39).

6. Learning to Be Prophet, Contemplative, and Grown Up

• Prophet: etymologically, “to speak before,” rooted in human experience and speech, representing (rather than predicting) divine movement in history (52:30–54:57)
• Paradoxical Thinking: Essential for navigating a complex world; not denying evil, but holding hope and suffering together.
• Maturing in Faith: The Bible (and the prophet’s journey) is a template for “growing up”—transforming childish concepts of God into adult solidarity with suffering and joy.

7. Notable Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | | ------- | ----- | |00:09 – 02:51| Podcast format and season structure | |03:06| “Truth without love is not transformational truth.” | |04:54| Richard’s blessing for the journey | |11:05 – 12:20| Prophetic critique: individuals vs systems | |14:57 – 17:23| Poem and Ezekiel readings on paradox | |18:59| The Great Nevertheless and divine hope | |21:11 – 23:44| Prophetic nondual consciousness: justice and complicity | |27:04 – 28:46| The pain of imperfection, paradox in faith | |30:01 – 31:21| Religion as ego cover and spiritual transformation | |33:01 – 34:05| Prophets as models of spiritual maturity | |38:36| Humility and need for mercy | |44:17 – 46:31| Tips for reading the book deeply | |48:36 – 51:25| Prophets in Black spirituality and contemporary relevance | |59:38 – 62:31| The pattern: anger, sadness, love | |70:39| “Good Trouble” and John Lewis’s legacy |

8. Concluding Reflections

The episode ends with gratitude for the opportunity to embark on this shared deep dive, a call for readers/listeners to engage not just intellectually but with their hearts and actions. The hosts and Richard Rohr model humility, honesty about struggle, and encouragement to embody a prophetic love that persists through outrage, grief, and the long journey to wholeness.

Final Blessing from Drew Jackson (74:57):

“Go from wherever you are in the prophetic spirit and find yourself in good and necessary trouble, stirring up chaotic love for the sake of the flourishing of our world.”

Core Takeaways

• The prophets invite us not just to diagnose evil but to heal our own hearts and societies through transformative love rooted in self-knowledge, humility, and paradox.
• “Good Trouble” means confronting systems of harm—beyond scapegoating—by holding anger, grief, and love together.
• The journey through The Tears of Things is best done slowly, reflectively, in community, with a willingness to confront discomfort and grow.
• The prophetic path is messy, participatory, and rooted in grace rather than achievement.
• The book (and podcast) offers permission to outgrow simplistic faith and take up the adult work of loving as God loves, amidst the world’s suffering and beauty.

For Listeners/Readers

• Read or listen alongside others if possible. Journal, take notes, invite questions and honest disagreement.
• Notice where anger, sadness, and love show up in your life as you engage the book.
• Let the paradoxes point you to deeper wisdom—beyond binary thinking.
• Keep humility and mercy at the center, remembering the prophets’ humanity.

"May we all seek truth with love and gentle but fierce hearts this year as we go through The Tears of Things."
— Richard Rohr, as read by Mike Petro (03:06)