Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward

Episode Summary: John Duns Scotus with Sr. Mary Beth Ingham

Date: February 14, 2025

Overview

This episode of "Everything Belongs" explores the profound and often misunderstood wisdom of John Duns Scotus, a 13th-century Franciscan philosopher and theologian. Through a rich, multi-part conversation, hosts Paul Swanson, Mike Petro, Drew Jackson, Richard Rohr, and special guest Sister Mary Beth Ingham illuminate Scotus’ influence on contemplative Christianity and Franciscan spirituality. The discussion dives into foundational Scotist concepts like the University of Being, “thisness” (hexeity), and the cosmic nature of the Incarnation—revealing how these ideas can transform how we see God, ourselves, and our participation in the world where everything and everyone belongs.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why John Duns Scotus Matters (00:44–05:16)

• Paul and Drew reflect on the significance of Scotus as presented in Richard Rohr's book Eager to Love, noting its gateway role for many into contemplative Christianity.

• Drew recalls Rohr's interpretation of salvation—as an unfolding awakening to our true nature, rather than a simple divine transaction:

  "It’s not a divine transaction, but this sort of ever organic unfolding that we wake up to become conscious of, almost as if it’s us becoming who we already are." (01:11 — Drew Jackson)

• The playfulness of the term “dunce” is explored, tracing its origin to Scotus’ followers—who were termed “dunces” after struggling to match his subtlety and depth.

2. Richard Rohr’s Encounter with Scotus (05:34–15:57)

• Richard shares the formative impact of a liberal arts seminary education, and how encountering the friars’ example shaped his integration of intellect and spirituality.

• Rohr emphasizes the importance of self-education and “good thinking,” involving self-critique and the ability to see through one’s own illusions and historical perspectives.

  “A capacity for self-criticism. To critique your own thoughts, to see through your own illusions… All of that gave you perspective.” (10:14 — Richard Rohr)

• Rohr describes Scotus as a “subtle doctor,” with thoughts that are rarefied, dense, and hard to distill — which only added to his mystique and the later misconceptions around his legacy.

3. Scotus’ Three Transformative Ideas (15:10–35:08)

a. The University of Being (15:57–22:13)

• Scotus challenged the prevalent idea (from Aquinas) that our experience of God is only analogous. Instead, he posited that being is unified—“with one voice” (Unus Vox).

• Rohr:

  “The being of God and my being and your being are the same being. That’s what we’re saying.” (17:37)

• This concept found poetic resonance in Gerard Manley Hopkins’ poem “As Kingfishers Catch Fire,” read aloud on the podcast (21:15–22:39).

• Rohr links this to modern mysticism and cosmology—suggesting that participation in being unites all creation.

b. Hexeity: “Thisness” (22:52–28:33)

• Scotus balanced unity with the uniqueness of each entity—coining “hexeity” (thisness). Every being, down to an individual tree or person, has particular value and is loved for “being this tree.”

• Rohr:

  “God loves this tree for being this tree... That’s the holding of the two together where you have, we are Christ and yet Christ is everything.” (24:16)

• The conversation considers how this influenced Jung’s idea of individuation, and finds analogy in modern concepts like fractals—the part mirrors the whole.

c. The Incarnation as the First Idea in the Mind of God (29:24–35:08)

• Scotus upends the “redemption-centered” theology, proposing that the Incarnation was God’s plan from creation’s outset—not merely a response to sin.

• Rohr shares the Colossians hymn to demonstrate the cosmic Christ:

  “He is the whole, we are the parts, and all things are reconciled through him and for him everything in heaven and everything on earth when he made peace through the blood of the cross.” (29:49)

• This shifts Christianity from being “problem-focused” (sin) to “good-centered” (original blessing, Genesis 1), inviting believers to see life as a wedding banquet, not a judicial court.

  “It’s a wedding banquet instead of a judicial court.” (34:55 — Richard Rohr)

4. Sister Mary Beth Ingham’s Perspective on Scotus (38:05–73:10)

a. Discovering Scotus Through Beauty (38:36–43:39)

• Sr. Mary Beth narrates how she reluctantly encountered Scotus during doctoral research, only to have his philosophy click during an afternoon walk—realizing his project was rooted in an experience of beauty and harmony.

• “Maybe what he was doing was describing an experience and describing an experience of beauty... If we can really grasp the dignity of the ordinary, then we’re able to understand God’s love.” (38:36–41:05)

b. Franciscan Tradition: From Individual Experience to Cosmic Communion (44:05–47:07)

• She observes that Scotus’ insights gain clarity when situated in the broader Franciscan context—where beauty, gratitude, and pilgrimage shape spirituality.
• The “What would Francis do?” question is reframed:

  “They're dead. The question is, what are you going to do? ...at this moment in history, what are you called to do?” (46:36)

c. On the Title “Scotus for Dunces” and Accessibility (47:25–52:32)

• The story behind her approachable book title is discussed, lampooning the complexity of Scotus and celebrating the need for philosophy that speaks to ordinary experience.

d. Mysticism, Experience, and Action (53:06–55:19)

• Sister Mary Beth contrasts Franciscan mysticism with other traditions:

  “Bonaventure brings us to a moment where we enter a kind of mystical night. Scotus brings us to a party. And the party is the life of the Trinity...” (53:06)

e. Elevator Pitch: Why Scotus? (55:19–57:08)

• To the uninitiated:

  “He’s a follower of Francis... who has experienced God’s love in such a way that he simply cannot stop talking about it.” (55:22)

• Critiques the “birdbath” caricature of Franciscan tradition, underscoring its deep prophetic and practical edge.

f. Dignity of the Individual and the Whole (58:24–62:21)

• In a society obsessed with individualism, Scotus’ medieval context reversed that—valuing the part within the whole. She uses stained glass and choir harmonies as metaphors.

• “The individual is important, but it’s not more important than the role it’s playing in a whole symphony, a cosmic symphony.” (58:24)

• Dignity arises from relationship and contribution, not separation or absorption into the whole.

g. The University of Being—Clarified (62:38–68:09)

• Sr. Mary Beth explains that “univocity of being” is about having a conceptual bridge—meaningful language that connects our experience with the divine. It does not mean “everything is everything else” or that we are God.

• “I can think about myself and help my own experience of thinking about myself and my own life and my life experience to say something meaningful about God.” (66:00)

• When united with “thisness,” Scotus offers both universality and particularity—a basis for dignity and participation.

h. Living the Teaching: Beauty, Suffering, and Participation (70:36–73:01)

• The Franciscan vision celebrates both beauty and suffering without denial.
• The movement is a dynamic dance—“embrace the dynamism of reality”—always inviting people outwards to share, not just contemplate, the divine.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The being of God and my being and your being are the same being.” – Richard Rohr (17:37)
• “Once you have a living example of a certain kind of wholeness, you want that, you want to be that way.” – Richard Rohr (07:00)
• “To love God and to love good things is one and the same.” – Origin, read by Mike Petro (21:01)
• “God loves this tree for being this tree… That’s the holding of the two together where you have, we are Christ and yet Christ is everything.” – Richard Rohr (24:16)
• “Bonaventure brings us to a moment where we enter a kind of mystical night. Scotus brings us to a party. And the party is the life of the Trinity.” – Sr. Mary Beth Ingham (53:06)
• “The individual is important, but it’s not more important than the role it’s playing in a whole symphony, a cosmic symphony.” – Sr. Mary Beth Ingham (58:24)
• "Tourists complain and pilgrims give thanks.” – Franciscan proverb shared by Sr. Mary Beth (44:33)
• “It’s the experience of the divine all around us that unleashes the dynamism of life and love in the world.” – Sr. Mary Beth Ingham (74:02)

Important Timestamps

• 00:44-03:50: Introduction to the episode and why Scotus matters for contemporary spirituality.
• 05:34-10:51: Richard Rohr's early formation and the role of integrating head and heart.
• 15:10-22:13: The “University of Being” explained; Gerard Manley Hopkins’ poem read (21:15).
• 22:52-29:08: “Hexeity/Thisness”—each individual’s unique value and participation in being.
• 29:24-35:08: Christ as the “first idea,” shifting from sin-centered to incarnation-centered Christianity.
• 38:36-41:05: Sr. Mary Beth’s beauty-focused insight connecting personal experience to philosophical comprehension.
• 53:06-54:49: Describing Franciscan mysticism as “the life of the Trinity... a party.”
• 62:38-68:09: Deep dive into “univocity of being” and why it matters.
• 74:02: Sr. Mary Beth’s quote on beauty, participation, and daily spiritual renewal.

Thematic Flow

The episode flows from introducing John Duns Scotus and his misunderstood intellectual legacy, through Richard Rohr’s deeply personal engagement with his ideas, into practical and poetic explorations of unity and diversity, and concludes with Sr. Mary Beth Ingham grounding these philosophical concepts in everyday experience, beauty, action, and community. The tone remains light, inviting, and grounded in lived spirituality—never shying away from complexity, yet making space for wonder, participation, gratitude, and transformation.

Takeaways for Daily Practice

• Participate, don’t just contemplate: Our uniqueness (“thisness”) is vital, but only meaningful in concert with the whole (“university of being”).
• Celebrate beauty—especially the ordinary: Divine love is both found in and fuels the appreciation of daily life.
• Let theology fuel action: Gratitude, not just awe, leads to loving participation in the world.
• Mysticism is exuberance, not escape: The fullness of reality is found in dynamic engagement, not withdrawal.
• Ask: “What is mine to do?” Find your note in the cosmic harmony and trust it matters.

Closing Reflection

This episode urges listeners to recognize their place in the “cosmic symphony” of being. John Duns Scotus’ teaching, as unpacked through the voices of Richard Rohr and Sister Mary Beth Ingham, calls modern contemplatives to embrace their unique “thisness” not for self alone, but as a vital part of God’s unfolding love and beauty in the world—reminding us that truly, “everything belongs.”