Midlife Fashion Ennui — w/ The Fug Girls!

Summary

Episode Summary: "Midlife Fashion Ennui — w/ The Fug Girls!"

In this engaging episode of Everything is Fine, hosts Jennifer Romolini and Kim France delve into the nuanced world of midlife fashion with special guests Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan, collectively known as "The Fug Girls." Released on March 10, 2025, this episode explores the challenges and triumphs women over 40 face in navigating contemporary fashion, particularly in the context of high-profile events like the Oscars.

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1. Introduction and Guest Welcome (02:05 - 08:00)

The episode kicks off with the hosts and guests exchanging light-hearted banter about their day-to-day lives, setting a relatable and welcoming tone. Jennifer Romolini and Kim France introduce Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan, highlighting their achievements as creators of the renowned fashion blog Go Fug Yourself and the bestselling Substack newsletter Drinks with Broads. Their extensive experience in writing for prestigious publications establishes their credibility in discussing fashion and lifestyle topics.

Notable Quote:

"We've been friends for years... We're just... just what the show needed." – Kim France [21:12]

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2. Oscars Fashion Highlights and Lowlights (08:00 - 16:44)

The conversation shifts to the recent Oscars, where the group shares their perspectives on the event’s fashion statements.

• Positive Highlights:

  • Halle Berry, Demi Moore, and Mindy Kaling are praised for their stunning appearances in glittering silver gowns.
  • Selena Gomez receives accolades for looking genuinely happy and confident, enhancing her wardrobe choices.

• Negative Lowlights:

  • Rachel Zegler’s Dior Dress: Described as ill-fitting and uninspiring, the dress failed to meet expectations despite being a custom piece.
  • Ariana Grande’s Non-Traditional Dress: While the fit was praised, there is a growing fatigue with her recurring "Glinda" ensemble, signaling a desire for more originality.

Notable Quote:

"Rachel Zegler... it appeared as though she was making the best of something that was totally the wrong measurements." – Kim France [09:42]

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3. The Origin and Evolution of Go Fug Yourself (20:48 - 32:14)

Heather and Jessica recount the birth of their blog Go Fug Yourself, tracing its origins to a spontaneous conversation at the mall in 2004. What began as a playful critique of movie posters and celebrity fashion quickly gained traction, evolving into a staple for fashion enthusiasts seeking honest and humorous takes on style.

Notable Quote:

"We just sort of started the blog to entertain ourselves because that's what people did." – Jessica Morgan [21:15]

They discuss how the blog has adapted over time, balancing humor with respectful commentary, and how it has remained relevant despite the shifting digital landscape.

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4. Current Challenges in Midlife Fashion (38:04 - 55:25)

The group delves into the specific fashion challenges faced by women over 40, emphasizing accessibility and relatability.

• Expense of High Fashion: The dominance of luxury brands makes fashionable choices seem unattainable for many, leading to a sense of ennui.
• Lack of Guidance: There's a notable absence of platforms offering practical and budget-friendly fashion advice tailored to midlife women.
• Authenticity vs. Sponsorship: The tension between genuine style expression and brand-driven fashion compromises creates a disconnect for both consumers and stylists.

Notable Quotes:

"I just need help. I need someone who's my height and size..." – Kim France [46:06]

"We need a celebrity to do this." – Jen Romolini [46:26]

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5. Celebrity Influence and Personal Attachment (55:25 - 65:16)

The discussion shifts to the impact of celebrity culture on personal style and mental well-being.

• Attachment Issues: Jennifer Romolini expresses a desire to detach from celebrity fixation, noting how it can lead to unrealistic expectations and disappointment.
• Knowledge Overload: Kim France highlights the challenge of maintaining the mystique of celebrities in an age where information is ubiquitous, leading to reduced intrigue and increased scrutiny.

Notable Quotes:

"After doing this for this many years, I have worked the celebrity fixation out of my body." – Jen Romolini [58:37]

"We know too much now about like, everyone..." – Kim France [64:59]

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6. Maintaining Professional Relationships (29:13 - 32:14)

Jen Romolini and Kim France discuss the importance of maintaining strong personal and professional relationships amidst their collaborative work. They emphasize compromise, mutual respect, and the ability to resolve conflicts amicably as key factors in sustaining their long-term partnership.

Notable Quote:

"We are just fortunate in that I think our working styles just mesh well together." – Jen Romolini [30:31]

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7. Future Aspirations and Conclusion (65:25 - 72:25)

As the episode nears its end, the hosts and guests share their aspirations and plans for the future.

• Continued Writing: Jen and Kim express a desire to continue writing, possibly expanding into new projects or mediums.
• Protecting Personal Peace: They discuss strategies for managing online interactions and maintaining mental well-being in the face of negativity and trolling.
• Evolution of Content Platforms: The benefits of platforms like Substack are highlighted as ways to diversify and invigorate their content delivery.

Notable Quotes:

"Subscribe to our Substack." – Jen Romolini [69:46]

"Protect your peace." – Kim France [67:05]

The episode concludes with heartfelt thanks to Heather and Jessica, reinforcing the supportive and collaborative spirit that defines Everything is Fine.

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Conclusion

"Midlife Fashion Ennui — w/ The Fug Girls!" offers a candid and insightful exploration of the complexities women over 40 face in the fashion world. Through honest dialogue and personal anecdotes, Jennifer Romolini, Kim France, Heather Cox, and Jessica Morgan provide valuable perspectives on maintaining authenticity, navigating high fashion's high costs, and managing the pervasive influence of celebrity culture. This episode serves as both a reflective piece and a practical guide for its audience, celebrating the resilience and adaptability of midlife women in the ever-evolving landscape of fashion and identity.

Transcript

[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Heather Cox]

Hi and welcome to Everything Is Fine, a podcast for women over 40. God, my hair looks good today.

[Jessica Morgan]

Your hair does look good today.

[Heather Cox]

Okay. Anyway, we are your co hosts. I'm Kim France.

[Jessica Morgan]

And I'm Jen Romolini.

[Heather Cox]

And sometimes it's the fourth or fifth day after you wash your hair. That's really the charm.

[Jessica Morgan]

Sometimes it is. And then sometimes when you haven't washed your hair in a long time and then like you wash it, it's just like, whoa, this is amazing hair like sometimes that like, wash after several days of not washing is really just perks everything up. And it's very exciting.

[Heather Cox]

It's true. That's how I'm feeling. How are you doing?

[Jessica Morgan]

I'm doing great. That's all I'm gonna talk about from now on is how fucking great. I'm just great. I'm so good. I feel wonderful. It is wonderful to be 52 and female in America right now. That's it.

[Heather Cox]

Oh, come on.

[Jessica Morgan]

That's it.

[Heather Cox]

Just stop it.

[Jessica Morgan]

No, I'm gonna try to be less complaining. We've been getting notes that I'm.

[Heather Cox]

That I.

[Jessica Morgan]

That I don't.

[Heather Cox]

I just. No, it's not you.

[Jessica Morgan]

No, no.

[Heather Cox]

The notes were clearly directed at me.

[Jessica Morgan]

I don't know who they were directed at, but of course I have a sort of like masochistic narc. And so I. So I took it all. So I was like. It was like somebody was like, when did you stop trying? And that hurt me.

[Heather Cox]

That hurt me when they said that. But here's the thing, and I said it to you. These are fucked up times. These are difficult times.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes.

[Heather Cox]

We come on here every week.

[Jessica Morgan]

We do.

[Heather Cox]

Sometimes, like, one of us just isn't. It isn't happening. You know, it's not happening, or we're in a bad place or we can't get, you know, our wheels to stop spinning and it affects the episode.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. And what we should really do is just skip that week because it's not like. It's not like we're making any money. We should just skip the week. But we don't, because we know that consistency is kind of key to maintaining an audience.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah. Yeah. So occasionally there's an episode where we're both kind of babies. It happens.

[Jessica Morgan]

Babies. Just complaining babies. But, yeah, I am. I did take the note. I did think about it and I was like, I think I have been really complaining a lot. And I do, you know, and that's not. That's not the person that I want to be is. It is a complainer. Non stop complainer.

[Kim France]

Yeah, But.

[Heather Cox]

But there's also, you know, there are times when the only logical reaction to something is to complain.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I don't know what a logical reaction is to anything. But I will say I really enjoyed the Oscars. We talk a little bit in this episode about the Oscars. Oh, I guess we should say who our guests are today. Our guests are Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan, who are the Fug Girls. And we talk a little bit about the Oscars. I really enjoyed them. I felt like they were well paced. I thought Conan was funny. I thought the show sort of sped by and I was happy watching it.

[Heather Cox]

Well, I was in a hotel room and I was watching it on Yahoo. Not on Yahoo, on Hulu, because that was the only way to watch it in the hotel room. And I don't know if you know this, but it happened to a lot of people watching it on Hulu. It cut out before the last two awards.

[Kim France]

Oh.

[Jessica Morgan]

Oh, that's annoying.

[Heather Cox]

So I didn't get to see them, but I also enjoyed it and I usually, like, tap out. I never watched it to the end.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, totally, totally.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah.

[Jessica Morgan]

Speaking of Yahoo, do you know Yahoo is 30 years old? Yahoo. Is 30 years old. It's celebrating a 30 year birthday and I have been there for like 10.

[Jen Romolini]

Of those years.

[Jessica Morgan]

Which is insane. But doesn't that seem like. I mean, I guess that makes sense that it's 30 years old.

[Heather Cox]

Well, you know, I was listening to a podcast, the Rewatchables that I sometimes listen to that where they watch old movies, and they were talking about Before Sunrise, which came out, I think, in the late 90s. But nobody has a cell phone in that movie. Nobody has. It was like right before.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes, like all that.

[Heather Cox]

My first cell phone I had in the 90s, like probably 1997 or something.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, I remember my boyfriend at the time had the. He was a photographer and he had a cell phone, was the first person I knew at his cell phone. And I remember like sitting with him at brunch and him going outside to take a call and having like, what the fuck is this? What is it? This doesn't seem great. You know.

[Heather Cox]

Little did we know.

[Jessica Morgan]

Little did we know that they would be on tables and we would be sitting next to our partners, just like, oh, I'm. You know, they'd be on tables in restaurants, but also we'd be sitting on sofas just next to each other, being like, I'm on my phone while you're on your phone.

[Heather Cox]

Parallel playing.

[Jessica Morgan]

Parallel, exactly. Parallel playing. This is a nice, meaty long episode where we talk about a lot of cool stuff, I think. And I think let's just get into it.

[Heather Cox]

Yep, I agree.

[Jessica Morgan]

Our guests this week are Heather Cox and Jessica Morgan. Heather and Jessica are the creators of one of the Internet's longest standing celebrity fashion blogs, Go Fug Yourself. As well as the best selling substack newsletter, Drinks with Broads. They're also authors of the bestselling novel the Royal we and its sequel, the Heir of Fair, as well as Two young adult novels, spoiled and messy. They've written for publications ranging from New York Magazine to Vanity Fair, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Cosmopolitan, W magazine, and Glamour. Welcome back to the show, ladies. Hi. Hi.

[Kim France]

Hi.

[Jen Romolini]

Thank you for having us back. We're glad to be here.

[Jessica Morgan]

I've actually never met the two of you, even though as we were before we got on air, we all were like, wait, have we ever met?

[Jen Romolini]

I would have probably testified in court that we had. So I'm glad that we have, like, testified this.

[Jessica Morgan]

It's just like being in the ether, like being old media people. Just, like, around.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kim France]

Yes.

[Jessica Morgan]

So I feel like before we start, we have to talk about the Oscars. Yes, we just have to. I thought the show was great. I thought it was one of the best Oscars I'd seen in a very long time. I'm curious what everybody thought about the fashion. What were some highlights for you guys or lowlights?

[Kim France]

Gosh. I think it was a pretty good show. I think for me, I guess it's on brand for me to start with a low light. This is Heather, by the way. I know that Jessica and I have been told we sound similar, and so I want to. I'm getting a little bit sick, so I feel like maybe that'll help the huskiness. Give me, like, a little Sophia Bush action, maybe if I'm lucky. But anyway, I feel like on the one end of the spectrum, the good we had, like, Halle Berry and Demi Moore and Mindy Kaling looking, like, fantastic in these glittering silver gowns. And then on the other end, we had the ingenue Rachel Zegler, who had, like, a custom Dior that was a dishwatery gray and it didn't fit. Like, you would never have guessed it was custom to look at it. It appeared as though she was making the best of something that was totally the wrong measurements. But no, it was made for her. Just sat too low. It looked dingy. It was depressing. And I think when you. First of all, when you're about to be Snow White on the big screen and you are kind of the next wave of starlets, she deserved better from them.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

And I was bummed for her that she didn't get it.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heather Cox]

Can I ask a question? Where did you guys stand on Ariana Grande's cake stand dress?

[Jen Romolini]

Cake stand. I love calling it that. I called it a lampshade. And then I felt very validated that Schiaparelli was like, this is based on a lampshade. I was like, I Knew it. My grandma had that lampshade. I was very smug about that. Usually when I make that crack, it's just rude. I have a couple thoughts. I actually think that for the event, it was right for her. I think the fit was spectacular. I kind of enjoy people wearing kooky stuff to the Oscars because that doesn't really happen anymore. And as we always say, like, please don't ever listen to us. We really would prefer it if you wore whatever you really wanted, even if it's nuts. I think the issue with Ariana right now is that people are kind of tired of the Glinda thing. And of course she's gonna wear it to the Oscars. She's nominated for the part. Like, she's not gonna punt now. Like, this is it. So I think for the. I'm not. I'm really over the people using the phrase. She understood the assignment, so I'm not gonna use it. But I think she fulfilled her brief very well.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes.

[Jen Romolini]

But I think we're a little tired of the brief. Like, I think the brief is kind of worn out. I think. I think she accomplished what she set out to do. How's that for, like, damning the faint praise? I'm just. I think everybody needs a red carpet. Watchers, I think, need a little break from Wicked. They've been promoting Wicked since, like, six weeks, six months before it came out. And we have a whole other movie.

[Kim France]

So, yes, it's been a roller picture of pink. Yes. Part two. Come in Thanksgiving.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes.

[Heather Cox]

Wow.

[Jen Romolini]

There's a whole other half.

[Kim France]

Yeah. So there's more. So we got another year of pink, potentially.

[Jen Romolini]

But as a dress, like, in a vacuum, I think it's beautiful.

[Kim France]

I think a precise fit like that can cover many sins. So even if you even for. And I think that's true of a lot of things. Like, I think back to when Cardi B. Went to the Grammys, and she wore this crazy Thierry Mueller dress that was, like. It was black and pink, and it looked like she was coming out of a seashell. And, like, artistically, it was beautiful. Practically, not so much. But it fit her perfectly. And I kind of think, like, a laser precise fit, like, Ariana Grande had forgives a lot.

[Heather Cox]

Or, like, you mentioned Halle Berry. I thought that dress was spectacular.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, it's so good. Well, and also, she has a habit of, like. I mean, honestly, I've never seen another more beautiful human in person. I saw her at the supermarket once in, like, jeans and a T shirt, and that's not fair. She's in a cake aisle. And I was like, I just want to die like this. I've never seen a better looking human person ever. Like maybe Lucy Liu at Fashion Week once. Lucy Liu is also spectacular, but just regular Halle Berry buying a cake mix. The most spectacular thing you've ever seen. But she doesn't always get it right on the red carpet. So I found this, the dress, gorgeous. But also it's like, oh, look at this gorgeous woman nailing it. It's so satisfying. She's spectacular. It all came together for Halle.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah. I've been really into Selena Gomez lately.

[Jen Romolini]

She looks great.

[Jessica Morgan]

I feel like she's never looked better. Like, she just looks happy. And I feel like her clothes are. I think she just found what she's supposed to look like.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

Yeah. She's really. I think we did a slideshow of her at the end of the year and last year, sort of right around Only Murders and Emilia Perez sort of started to promote around the same time. She. I don't know if she changed stylists or if she just got comfortable with. I think some of it is that she is happy. I think that makes a huge difference. And so she just looks lit up from within. And I think that that also can salvage almost any outfit. Like, if you are glowing, who's even looking at the rest of it? Like, we're just looking at the face, you know? But she. I think she's. She's had a really, like. Some of her. And even some of her outfits over the last year were a little bit repetitive. There was a lot of little black and white collars and, like, similar fits and stuff, but it felt new each time because she was sort of lit from within.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

So if she could bottle that, that would be great. Speaking of the substance.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes. Yes.

[Jessica Morgan]

Oh, nicely done.

[Heather Cox]

How did you guys feel about that? Upset.

[Jen Romolini]

Bad. I don't like it.

[Heather Cox]

Sad, really.

[Jen Romolini]

I'm happy for Mikey, but, like, I'm really sad for her. To me, really sad for me.

[Kim France]

I don't think I realized, and I think I'm stealing this from Jessica. I don't think I realized that. I was. How much I was hoping for it for Demi until she didn't win.

[Jen Romolini]

No, I know the whole, like, I feel like for three weeks I was like, I'm so happy for Demi. More that she's going to get an Oscar. And like.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

Feel like I was holding. It was like I was releasing a breath I didn't know I was holding, and it hurt. Like, I can't make the argument I didn't see Anora was the last one on my list and I hadn't seen it yet. Like, not out of importance. I just hadn't gotten to it yet. And I'm never going to see the substance because it's absolute body. The body horror and the gross out is just not. I can't do it. So I can't compare the performances. But I think, as everyone has pointed out, the cruel irony of me being nominated for that movie and losing to the young newcomer has to add an extra layer of hurt. But I hope it's not so often when these things happen, it's like we act like, oh, no, that was it, you know.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Kim France]

And sometimes it is. Sometimes there aren't those same kinds of chances. But I had sort of the same. I caught myself having the same feelings about Pamela Anderson when she didn't get a nomination of being like, oh, no, what if that's the last time people take them seriously? What if that's the last time they're offered that part that gets them this kind of acclaim and admiration and attention? And I think that's the part that makes me. The saddest is being afraid that they won't. That there aren't going to be more opportunities. Because for as much as we're all trumpeting, like, look how great this is, there's opportunities for older female actresses and, like, they're really killing them. And these are like legacy actresses that we've followed for all phases of their career. This is wonderful. And you want it to be a trend. And there's always that thought in the back of your mind, like, is it though? Like, does Hollywood really work that way? And I think that's really where the sadness came in for me is like, oh, God, did we just watch someone's last opportunity? And I hope not.

[Jen Romolini]

And, like, I do also feel a little bad for Mikey Madison because I think she. I mean, she should be thrilled. Good for her. I heard she's great in the film. I do think there is a. It's not really a backlash on her, but I do think it's a little bit of people being vocally disappointed about her winning. That has to sort of suck for her. It's not going to suck that bad. She has an Oscar. Like, she's going to be fine. It's not her fault.

[Kim France]

I think it was the same last year when Emma Stone won over Lily Gladstone. It was another. People were kind of, like, mad at her for winning. And I think she knew it. And Felt it and maybe agreed was a little like, I wish this hadn't happened. It's gotta be complicated for all of them. But, yeah, I guess when you wake up and you have the Oscar, it's easier to wash it off.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. I felt like. I don't know, it was weird because there is something in me that always feels frustrated when an Oscar is not about a performance, but about, like, a career. It's like, this is your career Oscar, you know? And I felt like actually, Demi Moore didn't have that much to do in the substance.

[Heather Cox]

She actually wasn't in it that much.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Jessica Morgan]

And didn't. And what she had to do was mostly about prosthetics. And, like, I totally get, like, us wanting to, like, honor this actress that's been around for a while. But at the same time, I felt like, okay, every once in a while, like, a fresh. A fresh face should win this because it makes Oscar.

[Jen Romolini]

Always wins it for the women.

[Jessica Morgan]

Is that true?

[Kim France]

I mean, is it like the last.

[Jessica Morgan]

Couple of years, isn't it like Olivia Colman and. I mean, isn't it Keith Blanchett and.

[Kim France]

Well, she beat Glenn Close.

[Jen Romolini]

She never won.

[Kim France]

She took Glenn Close to star. Was our analog for Jimmy Moore in the situation where, like, she showed up in that gorgeous gold gown and it was her coronation and then it didn't happen. Yeah, it's. It's.

[Jen Romolini]

They love a young woman.

[Kim France]

I don't know. I've heard that. I've heard that commentary on the movie. Again, I haven't seen it. I talked to my husband about it a bunch because he'd seen it, and he said, there's one scene before all the body horror even starts where she. He's like, she just really broke my heart in that one scene. He's like, she was just great. And it wasn't like he was saying she was only good in that scene. I think he was sort of. He was saying, like, there was more to this movie than body horror. And she really got me in that moment as her. So for. If you trust my husband, then there's that.

[Jen Romolini]

And why would you.

[Kim France]

But I agree. I think my remark on sort of similar. It's a bit of a sidestep. Was when Conclave won the SAG Award for cast. How difficult is it to assemble a great cast when you can get Ralph Fine and.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Kim France]

Stanley Tutu and John Lithgow and Isabella Rossellini and down the line. Whereas a movie like Anora, which was full of unknowns and Mikey Madison being The star of that movie. Still pretty unknown. Yeah. And. And apparently everybody in that movie is great. And it's just. Or for me, Sing Sing, which was my personal favorite of the movies that I saw, other than Thelma. I. All of those men who were former inmates and who, like, the clip they showed of it at the Oscars was of one of the actual former inmates giving a speech, and he's crying, and you're just like, how are you not an actor by trade? You're wonderful. And so I think that kind of stuff where I'm like, you are discovering people and directing them to performances that have carried these movies. And I think that is an achievement, and I do think Mikey Madison winning is an acknowledgement of that achievement. But I'm really looking forward to casting Oscars being on the table next year. And I hope they don't just go to movies like Conclave, where it's like, well, we have some money and Stanley Tucci will do anything. Let's get him. Right. Right.

[Jen Romolini]

This is going to be something where we're really not going to know how this award ages for, like, 10 years. Like, yeah, 15 years from now, we might look back at that and be like, mikey Madison's the greatest actress of our generation. And the Oscars, like, really saw that. And not that that's not going to make it less important, but, like, you know, it also might be a thing where you're like, like, I am a big fan of the Oscars, and I was like, as a kid, it was one of the things I read a lot about, you know, how kids get into Egyptology, which I was also into. But, you know, I would love to read, like, the encyclopedia listings for, like, who won Best Actress or whatever. And you would sometimes look at them and be like, wow, four of these movies I've heard of, and they're iconic. And the woman who won. I've never seen this movie, and I've watched it, and it's random. Like, so the Oscars are all over the place sometimes. And.

[Kim France]

But there's something nice about that in the sense that, like, you could have been the best performance that year, and you got. And it worked. And even if you never do anything else, that win doesn't mean that win wasn't earned.

[Jen Romolini]

You know, I mean, sometimes I think they weren't. Sometimes I think they are wrong.

[Kim France]

That's true.

[Jen Romolini]

And I don't. I mean, a lot of times I look at them and I'm like, this is nuts that this woman won over that other woman, but it is Kind of like just a snapshot in time, you know? And I don't mean to be like, mikey, Madison's gonna be fine no matter what I say. And again, I believe that she is great in that. And I am happy for this young woman who has just had an amazing week of her life. But, yeah, I have a lot of. I feel really bad for Demi. I feel bad. I just. I feel. I'm bummed, basically, just to be honest about it.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Heather Cox]

Will you guys tell the origin story of Go fug yourself? Did it start. I always forget. Did it start at brunch? Did it start at the mall?

[Kim France]

The mall started at the mall. It did. We were obviously friends for a while. We've been friends for years. And in fact, I was just at a birthday party with Jessica this weekend for a mutual friend, and I was contextualizing how we knew each other, and I was like, I think Jessica is the linchpin of all of this.

[Jen Romolini]

Like, I was here for this part of this conversation. That's nice.

[Kim France]

Yeah. I was like, oh, this person. She and I were roommates because Jessica introduced us and this. And I know her. It was kind of cool. Anyway, Jessica and I were wandering around the mall. We were deep into, I think some extra hyper ice blended from the coffee bean that was a little extra strength. And we were just kind of riffing on the hideous movie posters that were all around us that were like. There was one where all the actresses on it looked cross eyed. And I was like, nothing against cross eyes, but, like, that's. This is an ad. This was a choice that. I don't know if I want to watch a movie about a sleepover just based on the art you're making. And so we were kind of riffing on, like, the styling, and it turned into the blog like, it was back in 2004. And back in 2004, everybody was jumping on the Internet and starting a free blog as a creative writing experiment. You know, now it's. You get on your TikTok and you start yapping. We prefer the era when our faces weren't. Didn't have to look a certain way. We could just type. It was much nicer. And so we would. So we just sort of started the blog to entertain ourselves because that's what people did. And it became kind of like the. We would liken it to, you know, when you would get together with your girlfriends to watch the super bowl or the Oscars or anything, or Alias, and one of you would have Us Weekly on the coffee table and you'd pick it up and you'd flip through it and you'd be like, oh, my God, Jessica Simpson's shirt here is insane. What is she thinking? And it was sort of that. That vibe that we were trying to capture in print.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

We were just basically screwing around.

[Kim France]

Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

People are always like, what's your business plan? I was like, well, please don't take business advice from me. I don't have one, and I don't.

[Kim France]

Know what I'm doing.

[Jen Romolini]

So this is all an accident. If we knew we were going to have to tell our parents what the website was called, we probably would have called it something else. Like, yeah, it all kind of started on a whim, and here we are. Crazy.

[Jessica Morgan]

How has it changed for you? I mean, I imagine if I think back to 2004 and Us Weekly, and I think about how we were covering celebrities then, style, everything else, you know, fashion police. How have you evolved how you think about covering celebrities and style over all these years?

[Jen Romolini]

Well, I think everyone is not quite as mean as they used to be on the Internet. I mean, that's not true. That's a very blanket statement. I think people's fashion coverage of celebrities is not as mean as it used to be on the Internet. Is a more specific and accurate way to put that. People are still very mean on the Internet. Don't worry. I think. I mean, I think it's sort of.

[Kim France]

Incumbent on us all to evolve a little bit.

[Heather Cox]

Right.

[Kim France]

Like we often say, I hope I'm not the same person on the Internet now as I was in 2004. And some of that is just trial by fire. And some of it is that the way that the cultural conversation has made people more aware of their implicit biases and their, you know, blind spots. And I think it's sort of about being open to the fact that no matter how good a person you think you are, you have those things. Yeah. And being open to someone pointing that out. And I think a lot of the good evolutions of our website and of us as writers and as people and stuff have come because people weren't afraid to sort of nudge us. Or sometimes it happened on our own. I'm not saying it always required someone giving us a shove in the back, but I'm always grateful for the ones that we've gotten. I remember when we used to think back in the day, you used to think you were doing the right thing by pointing out when someone had gotten very thin. Because we live in Los Angeles, we're surrounded by this really unhealthy industry that does a number on everyone's brains, as evidenced by this movie that was just nominated for an Oscar. The substance. You think I'm doing a good thing. I'm crusading for, like, it's not okay. Women shouldn't have to feel like they have to look like this. And eventually you realize through dialogues with people and just with your own self, that you're like, you don't know what's going on in somebody's life. And, like, it's not okay to, like, it's to cape. To think you're coming in as a savior and a hero of somebody. You don't know their body, and you don't know their struggles. And it really hit home for me one time when we said something about Sheryl Crow, and she came out, like, a week later and had been diagnosed with breast cancer and had been undergoing treatment. And you're like, you just don't know. And so you kind of have to just trust that that person and their family and their lives, if something needs to be addressed, hopefully it's being addressed. It's not our job to diagnose, and it's not. And that's where we really started to be, like, you know, we thought we were putting a positive message out in the world, but in the end, it ended up being. It can end up being just as negative as anything else, and nobody's perfect. But, like, we're not always gonna put a positive message out. I mean, I do sometimes hate people's outfits, and that's not very nice. But I think. I think we were really trying to be more and more clear as we went. We always started this way, but we were trying to be more clear. Like, it's not your DNA and it's not your body. It's just, like, the thing you put on it. Like, that's a choice, so. And that's a choice you can undo two hours later. So, like. But let's just try to keep it about that. We aren't always successful, but, like, we. But I. So I think. And that's just one example of just, like, really wanting to be a bit more careful about how we present that stuff while also still arguing for the right to have an opinion and to be like, you know, you. Just because we're women talking about women in dresses, it doesn't mean we're women who don't support women. Like, there isn't this, you know, I don't need to say to Megan Thee stallion, or to, you know, Paris Jackson, who Just wore the butt, the dress that showed her butt to one of the post parties. Like, good for you. You know, like, I sort of feel like it's okay for me to kind of be like, I don't know if this is. And that's fine too. So it's always trying to figure out how to walk that line. And I think we'll walk it differently every day. But as long as we're moving forward and moving in the right direction, I think that's all we can do.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah, well, I think the difference between you guys and a lot of other sites is that, number one, you're not gossips. Gossip just isn't part of the game that you're playing. And gossip always makes things a little more toxic. And also, I remember when I first met you guys, you told me that it was right around the time that Britney was really melting down for the first time. Oh, yeah. And she seemed to be getting a little better. And you guys said, I can't wait till she's all better so we can start making fun of her outfits again. Like, you guys weren't putting her on the blog while that was going on. And I think there's a real decency to what you guys do that's missing and that people relate to.

[Jen Romolini]

I mean, thank you. That's very kind. I have to say that. I mean, I do love to gossip, so I cannot claim to be above that. Nobody loves the. The fomoire subreddit the way I do. I am reading all this shit, let me tell you. But, yeah, we did.

[Jessica Morgan]

We.

[Jen Romolini]

We privately do call it the Britney rule, that if someone appears to be going through something serious, that we're gonna just sort of, like, step back. Her, like, when Britney was having all those, like, serious issues, it was like, there's something going on here. Her clothes are the least of her problems. This is. We don't need to be piling on. We should not be involved in this. Like, there's something else going on. This isn't like, honestly, the blog is just supposed to be kind of fun. People are at work, they want to procrastinate. They want to be like, oh, my God, look at this crazy thing. Whoever wore to this party last night? Or like, oh, hey, I love that bag. Like, we want to keep this a little light is kind of how I feel. Brittany, that got very serious. And it was not appropriate for us to be discussing her in a humorous fashion anymore. I don't know if she's really come back, to be honest with you.

[Jessica Morgan]

Like, I know I don't think she has.

[Heather Cox]

Poor thing.

[Jessica Morgan]

I mean, I don't think. I think we all know that she has. She hasn't really. It's really a shame what happened.

[Jen Romolini]

Her book was great.

[Jessica Morgan]

Her book was amazing. And, oh, my God, the audiobook read by Michelle Williams.

[Jen Romolini]

Oh, my God, amazing.

[Jessica Morgan]

It's just like. That was a stroke of genius, her.

[Jen Romolini]

Doing Justin Timberlake, like, kept me alive, I think, for a little bit of the year last year.

[Jessica Morgan]

So good.

[Jen Romolini]

The book was great. I hope whatever Britney's up to right now, she is happy, basically.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes, yes. Same, same, same, same. You guys have been working together. I mean, you don't just do the blog. You write books together. And. Yeah, it's over 20 years. It's crazy. What is the trick? How do you sustain a friendship while dealing with all the things that go into running a business?

[Jen Romolini]

I mean, I think some of it is that we are just fortunate in that I think our working styles just mesh well together. This is not. This is. That was just like a stroke of luck, to be honest, because I know I have a lot of friends who I love dearly, who I could not be in business with. And, you know, that's nothing. Not because of anything wrong with either one of us. We just would not. Our styles would not mesh at all. I think Heather and I are fortunate in that we are both good compromisers in general. I think we would rather come to a decision that both of us can live with, thank to be right, which I think goes a long way. Sometimes it goes too far in that when we're trying to discuss something and we have differing ideas, sometimes we will inadvertently talk the other person into our idea, but we'll both do it. And so then we'll both be on opposite sides, and we'll be like, no, I think you were right. No, I think you were right. Shoot. Well, now I agree with your other. Your original. And now she agrees with me and ask me swap. So, like, sometimes I will say, we absolutely are lunatics and discuss things far too long. I think the key is that, like, the number one rule for us is to make sure that both people leave whatever conflict we're having feeling okay with the decision we've made, even if it wasn't our pitch. So sometimes it takes some time, but I think that is kind of the key.

[Kim France]

Yeah. If we don't both come out happy, then either. Then it doesn't work.

[Jen Romolini]

Or not even happy, but just like.

[Kim France]

Or, you know, validated feeling. Heard feeling.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

And when she says conflict, like, we're also very lucky that like, yeah, we're.

[Jen Romolini]

Not fighting or anything.

[Kim France]

Conflict.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

Is often just like, like a logistical discussion. Like, oh, when do we want to do this? Oh, I don't know. Let's think about that. Or like, do we, you know, do we have time to go and do XYZ before Fashion Week? I don't know. Let's see if we can figure this out. Like, the, the good thing is, is that we, we, for whatever reason, we don't really fight. And I think that is one thing that helps. And I don't know how to. I don't know how to help other people achieve that. I don't know if it's. Neither of us really wants to. And some of it might be that we were friends first.

[Jessica Morgan]

Right.

[Kim France]

And I guess some friendships don't survive it. And I just keep coming back to like this woman dressed up in a gold coat to come and meet my babies when they were in the nicu and they were three days old and she wanted to look nice for them and she took their temperature and she like rubbed their little hands and sat there with me while I did the. I had to do the skin to skin because they were on IVs, are feeding through the nose and so they were, you know, teeny. I had preemie babies who were born at 31 weeks. And so they were, you know, in the NICU for about a month and then they were three days old and under three pounds. She was in there with them.

[Jen Romolini]

Gotta dress up for the babies.

[Kim France]

And I was just like, that is. That is the relationship that wins for me every time. That's the person that I want in my life. So if the business partner person isn't my business partner anymore, that's okay as long as the other Jessica is still front and center. So. And I think ultimately that's the priority for me. And so when we come into conversations where it's like, I don't know what we need to do about this or like, we need to make a decision about this, that's sort of always in the back of my mind.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, I mean, I think it does help that we didn't come into this being like, we're going to create a business together and we're going to take over the world. It was more like, whoops, we did this. And now it's like doing really well.

[Jessica Morgan]

What do we do about it?

[Jen Romolini]

So, like, we're not really coming from a place of. I mean, I would say that we're not really coming from like a place of business ambition. So it's never going to get like successiony and like cutthroat just because that's not.

[Kim France]

Oh, that would be fun though. Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

All right, which of the twins are we going to leave it to?

[Jessica Morgan]

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[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

Okay.

[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Jessica Morgan]

And we're back.

[Heather Cox]

But what was the moment you guys realized you can make your living this way?

[Kim France]

Gosh, I think it was, it was a long time ago. It was not long after we got the job with New York magazine to come out and cover Fashion Week. And so I think with the knowing that there was, well, hoping that there was going to be a semi regular, you know, twice a year salary from that. Plus we had started selling ads on the blog and it was doing well. And it also helps that we'd both been working in as freelance TV story producers. So when you do that, you always have built in hiatus time when your job ends and is there another season of your show going in a month or two? I don't know. Do you have to go looking for another job? I don't know. And so when our jobs sort of naturally ended around that time, we realized we were like, well, let's just see, maybe we don't have to run right out and find another one because we do have some ad money coming in and we're going to get this freelance money coming in and if more freelance. And then we started writing more regularly for New York and that was really it. Like, is it that those things came in at a time when we were already going on a natural break from our, from our day jobs? And I want to say that was like 2006 or 7.

[Jessica Morgan]

Like, wow, that's amazing.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah. And also I have to like acknowledge that and Heather and I have talked about this. Like, we're also coming from La Pace, place of privilege here where if everything blew up, we both have parents who would be like, for sure, like, we can bail you out.

[Kim France]

So they would not be for very long, but they would be like, we'll catch you, but like we're going to throw you back pretty quick.

[Jen Romolini]

But you know, I, I don't, I think that, you know, especially when you're like, however old I was, I was not that young. But like in your 20s, you feel a little bit more invincible than you might when you're 43.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

Which I'm also older than that, but. And it feels a little less insane to do something like that when you're. We absolutely had money coming in. Getting the job with New York was huge. They paid us very generously and that helped a lot. The blog was doing well, so it wasn't a crazy decision to like go out on our own financially at all. But also I just think, you know, I think a lot of back of my life and like, I feel very lucky that I knew that if things really blew up, my parents would not let me suffer.

[Jessica Morgan]

Right.

[Jen Romolini]

I think you just have to acknowledge that a little bit.

[Heather Cox]

Of course, Yeah.

[Jessica Morgan]

I wonder how you're so you've been covering style for so long. I wonder how your own personal relationships with style are evolving.

[Kim France]

That's a really good question.

[Jessica Morgan]

I mean it's hard to feel committed and engaged. Do you know, in the same topic for that long. So how do you feel about style these days? Personally, professionally, all of it.

[Kim France]

It's interesting, I think in terms of what we've seen on the red carpets and stuff. I probably have no personal style. So I'm going to start with the professional. It is very much more of a business than it used to be. When we even flashback to stuff from 2004, from when we first started, all during COVID we were doing flashback posts because obviously no one was going anywhere. And you look back and you're like, wow, these were people just wearing shit they bought at Express Props, but they were kitten held Steve Madden sandals and low rise jeans from Lucky. And you know, of course I had.

[Jen Romolini]

That whimsical T shirt.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kim France]

And there was, it was not polished or if. And I remember and that was, you know, when Rachel Zo surely was not the only game in town, but kind of felt like it because she was the first, I think she was the first one by my memory to sort of make herself a household name about it. And now people can probably rattle off a couple, but it's become much more of a business. It's become much more calculated. It's become a lot more the storytelling or at least the inspiration boards have become a lot more apparent, you know, and I think and you see people in sometimes head to toe Runway. I, I often miss a little bit of, you know, what I consider styling being like, we're going to pull a little from here, a little from here and a little from here and we're going to put all of that together in an outfit like lively, quote unquote, styling herself by Opening up a Ralph Lauren lookbook and being like, gimme number 32 is not as interesting to me as somebody who can put pieces together from disparate sources. And I would love to see a little bit more of that happening again. I really wish I could remember who just did that. And I commented on it on the blog at the time and I was like, that's interesting because you don't see that very often. Usually if they're wearing anything, it's all Dior, it's all Chanel or whatever, right?

[Jessica Morgan]

Like Margaret Qualley and just Chanel, like, she's so beautiful. I'm so sick of seeing her in Chanel.

[Heather Cox]

No kidding. Yeah, yeah.

[Kim France]

I mean, those contracts are a scourge, honestly. Like, good for you guys for getting the money. And I remember reading somewhere that Michelle Williams in particular was someone who said that making that deal with Louis Vuitton that she made eons ago provided her with the financial stability to make the movie she wanted to make, which led to her making more interesting acting projects, which led to her being like a very well respected actress. So I get it. I totally get it. But man, fashion wise, it's boring. And I think Zendaya had it figured out. Whatever deal she did with Louis Vuitton, it clearly included a lot of wiggle room for her to hang out with other people. It's an open relationship and I think that's great.

[Heather Cox]

Well, it's good. It's good for them too, right? Everything ends up looking better and being cooler.

[Jen Romolini]

I was just talking to, I did an interview with someone at Business and Fashion about. Not this exactly. It was about how difficult it's become for small designers to get their clothing on celebrities and like how they're managing this. Because obviously if you get, if you're a smaller designer, you get your clothes on a celebrity, it's huge for your business. And I was, we were sort of talking about how I think that these big brand deals, they're. I also think they're kind of bad for the brand because you start seeing on Instagram or socials or whatever, comment after comment of someone being like, save Margot Robbie from the clutches of Chanel. Like, that's not good for Chanel either. And I think, I mean, a lot of people said this when Chanel kind of got rid of their lead designer. Like, did TikTok bully her out of this job, like, or like to TikTok bully Chanel into getting someone new? And I mean, I just think it's so predictable and so boring. Like, what is Louis Vuitton gonna put so and so in this time. And you know, at the same time, I said to this, in this interview as well, that, like, this is stuff that only people who are paying a lot of attention really even care about or notice. Like, the average person is probably not gonna be like, I just think Margot Robbie's red carpet's been so much better since she's left Chanel. Her Barbie, like, fits were amazing. Like, this is kind of inside baseball. But for me, I think, yeah, I mean, I kind of miss the days when people were doing stuff themselves. Like, we're never going to go back to that financially. It's never going to happen. People are scared of being on the worst dress list, which I also understand. But I do kind of miss, like, the free for all it used to be. I think it was more entertaining.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. And somebody who had really good personal style and watching them sort of rise, like, just because they're just. They just knew it. They had an eye for it. And like, you'd see them in a. In a pap shot in a parking lot, and they looked incredible because they just knew how to do it. It's. Yeah, it's. It's a lot. It's a lot more boring now. But in a way, it almost feels like it's gone back to, like old Hollywood when they were old, when their images were so controlled and, you know, there were like three people designing their clothes.

[Jen Romolini]

So they're only wearing Edith head 24 7.

[Kim France]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Jessica Morgan]

That's who I was thinking of. Exactly.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think it's. I think it might swing the other way a little bit. Because I do think that. I mean, I think, I always think, like, if you're a stylist, isn't it so boring for you? It's got to be boring. Like, yeah, like, sure, you're getting paid well and that's fine. And it's probably easier to just be like, well, we have to wear Valentino. I guess we're doing this one. But I think if you're a stylist, you get into it because you love outfits. You want to put clothes together and, like, want to tell a story with what people are wearing. And, like, you want to go to the vintage shop and find this cool jacket that nobody else has because it's like this random ass jacket with the label torn out. Or you've got like, Law Roach used to be like, well, this is from my archives. And you know, as a guy who, before he started styling, he Owned a vintage shop. So, like, he loved that stuff and he would. I think he's probably one of the big reasons Zendaya's deal with LV is not as insane as it was. Because I'm sure they talk about this all the time. They're like, you have to have freedom to like, go out there and find interesting stuff. Like, I have a lot of clothes. I never. I wear like once every 10 years kind of that, but I don't. Well, I'm a hoarder. Let me just be honest. Like, I'm a total. I have this crazy gold lame Michael Kors tunic I've literally never worn in public. It has been in my closet for 15 plus years. I've never worn it. I'm not getting rid of it. I will wear it eventually. And I think that, like, I may be waiting to be like a kookier old lady to wear it. I don't know. I don't know. I got a consignment shop, I'm waiting for it, I'm hanging onto it. And I just think stylists are that to like the nth degree where they think, I love this outfit, I want to put this outfit on somebody and I will eventually. And I think it has to be so boring for them to be like, well, let's see what Chanel's got for you. And like, someone like Kristen Stewart who does not make sense for Chanel at all. And I could do a whole podcast about that. Oh, they've like done their best to make it cool and like, make it work for her. And like, I know they're trying really hard. Like, they're really working at it. But I just think at a certain point, if you're a stylist, you must be thinking, dear God, please let this age of brand ambassadorship end so I can do what I want to do.

[Jessica Morgan]

And make my client look the best they can look too, you know, Like, Kristen Stewart's a perfect example. What was it? The Chanel shorts?

[Kim France]

The Oscars? Terrible. Yes.

[Jessica Morgan]

Really bad.

[Kim France]

And I really feel like there's room for like a celebrity to come along and do so. We don't really talk about the royals much anymore. And Kate Middleton's not a great example, but she's the one I'm coming up with where she used to kind of mix high and low.

[Heather Cox]

Right.

[Kim France]

She would wear stuff from the high street. The high street and high fashion. And I think there's room for a celebrity to come along and do a bit more of that where it's like, Yeah, I got. This shirt is from the Gap, but, like, the skirt is an investment piece I got at the Row, and, like, I'm gonna do these things together or. And something that people can. Because that's, I think, where a lot of us struggle. It's certainly where I struggle. If we want to get into, like, the personal is like, everything sucks right now. Everything's expensive. I can't afford anything. So, like, I'm being kind of cheap with my clothes. Yes. And I'm like, I need to figure out. I need. I need more schooling on this. Like, what are the investment. Like, investment pieces? You know, what are the things that I should be looking at to be like, I need that as a centerpiece for my wardrobe, and how can I style inexpensively around it?

[Jen Romolini]

Stuff you used to be able to get at Lucky magazine.

[Kim France]

Yes, exactly. This is exactly what Lucky magazine right now should be doing for me.

[Jessica Morgan]

Somebody should be doing it. There has to be some. Somebody should be doing this. Nobody's doing.

[Jen Romolini]

There's a substack. I think there's a lot of stuff on substack, but it's sort of harder to find it.

[Jessica Morgan]

That's too diffuse. It's too hard to find.

[Jen Romolini]

No, I agree.

[Kim France]

Someone tell us so we can promote it.

[Jen Romolini]

We need a celebrity to do this. I agree with Heather.

[Kim France]

We do need a celebrity to do that, and I think that would be tremendously helpful. But also, even, like, it doesn't even have to be high. It can be low, low. But, like, show me. Show me how to shop H and M and Gap and, like, I had hopes for when Zac Posen took over the Gap and Old Navy and stuff that I was like, maybe that'll be part of it, because he's cool to people and. And he'll get people interested in these brands. And I don't really think that's happened. It happened. He made a super expensive, hideous white shirt dress, stuck it on Anne Hathaway, and it sold out because they probably only made, like, 10. So it, quote, unquote, sold out.

[Jessica Morgan]

Right.

[Kim France]

But, like, I think. And that. And otherwise, I sort of feel like that's been a bit of a flop for me. I don't think he's attached. I wish he would attach himself more to that and then really start trying to push some of the stuff we could actually buy for ourselves on some of these people so we can see how it looks. Because I often need. I need to see something in action before I'm. I get nervous to try stuff. So that's, you know, when I look at these pictures of people every day wearing, you know, am I ready for wide legged pants? For a long time I was like, am I ready for skinny jeans? I don't know if that works for my body. Am I ready for now? Am I ready for wide legged pants or am I gonna look squat? Like, I don't.

[Jen Romolini]

You're going to look fine.

[Kim France]

But see, so I think I want to be seeing more of this stuff out there and I want it to be stuff that applies to me. Like, I just don't, I don't relate to any of the style that I'm seeing where people are trying on stuff that's $300, like and then for me that's a lot. And so I'm like, I just, I need, I need cheap, cheap shit, you guys. Someone start a substack called cheap shit. I agree, that doesn't suck. That's going to be the substack.

[Jen Romolini]

Even like places like thrifting is kind of expensive now, especially in Los Angeles. I'm sure there are places where it's not, but like where I used to. One of the great joys of my life and one of the first things I did after we all got out of being locked in our homes during a hopefully once in a lifetime pandemic was I went to like my little favorite sort of like vintagey thrift shop in South Pass, South Pasadena. Oh my God, it was such a pleasure for me to just like rifle through old T shirts for like an hour. It was great. Look at these old jeans. I got some old Levi's. I firmly believe old jeans are the best way to go, but you have to try on 100 of them. It's a time consuming in person project, but it's so much more expensive than it used to be. Even thrifting vintage is really pricey now. Like when in the, you know, not to sound like an old lady, but when I was a young person in the 90s, you could go get amazing vintage for cheap. But you could. And it was great. But now it's all been picked over. People are reselling it.

[Kim France]

Ebay.

[Jessica Morgan]

Even ebay?

[Kim France]

Yeah, even ebay is on ebay.

[Jen Romolini]

Ebay.

[Kim France]

I remember buying my first pair of Isaac Mizrahi high heels in the early aughts off of ebay and feeling like I was a princess because that was like my designer item. And like now I feel like nothing, nothing is cheap on ebay if it's real, it's not, you know.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, I think people are getting a little bit of like I think people have some fashion on we. I really do. Like, yeah, everything's expensive. A lot of it. Like, I don't really. Like, Like, I don't know. I think that I've also heard for, like, I'd say, like, the last five years even. People keep saying, I don't know what pants I'm supposed to wear anymore, which I think is so funny. Like, but I think it's also true.

[Heather Cox]

I don't know what pants to wear anymore.

[Jen Romolini]

If you give. France doesn't know what pants to wear, what are the rest of us supposed.

[Kim France]

To be doing exactly?

[Heather Cox]

Seriously, I'm telling you, I'm down to one pair of jeans. I have one pair of jeans that are acceptable. My other jeans that were acceptable, I wore too much, and they're just bagged out and dead. One pair of blue jeans. So it's not jeans anymore. Jeans are not the answer. What's the fucking answer?

[Kim France]

I know, I know. I don't know. I was looking for something to wear to a wedding, like, a year ago or two years ago. Also. It wasn't a wedding. It was a bar mitzvah. It was a totally different event. Sorry, I'm getting sick. Someone was marrying their face, and I was. And I was walking around Nordstrom looking for something, and I just. And I don't usually talk out loud to myself. Well, maybe that's the lie too. But I stopped in the middle of the store and just looked around, and out loud, I was like, everything's hideous. Covered my mouth. I was like, that is. It's a rude thing to say in someone else's home. None of the people here own Nordstrom. I just felt like I was being impolite. But it was. It was all dresses that had, like, open holes in the back or, like, stuff, or I was gonna have an underwear line or, like, something, and I was like, I need to be able to wear a bra with this. I just do. And I need to maybe not have my bra showing in the back all the time. So I. The little teeny. Like, there was just nothing that felt like it was for a body that wasn't holding itself up naturally. So I just was like, I left. I'm out. I can't do this.

[Heather Cox]

It's for real. And dresses might even be worse than pants because dresses don't have sleeves. Dresses have cutouts. Dresses they're making. You know. I remember an older woman who worked in the beauty industry saying to me when I was at Lucky, when you get to the age where you can afford the Dresses, they're showing. You can't wear them because they don't have sleeves and everything else.

[Jen Romolini]

I have to say that, like, some of this does. Like, as you know, because I've said this to you before, Kim, I used to love Lucky. Like, it was my favorite magazine. I love the little stickers. It's so genius. And one of the things I loved about it was when you would, like, talk to a random woman on the street about her outfit sometimes, and you'd be like, oh, yeah, here's this cool girl downtown. These are, like, random leather pants. She, like, bought off them at a garage sale. And then there's this other. But, like, I feel like no one's really doing this anymore. Where are the interesting clothes?

[Jessica Morgan]

Well, it's happening, but without the service element, right? Yeah, that's happening.

[Jen Romolini]

Right.

[Jessica Morgan]

So you can see it on Instagram. But then you're like, I need more information. Like, I. Help me. Lead me well.

[Jen Romolini]

And I get that some. It's like, people can't. And we use affiliate links all the time. So this is not me saying this, but, like, you can't affiliate link a thrift short store T shirt, which I get. And you can't also just sell it in a magazine either. But, like, I think what we're all talking about is, like, I feel like. I feel like I don't know how the youths feel, and I hope they are all happy with their outfits, but I feel like in my age group, and I'm turning 50 in May, is that, like, a lot of us are like. And I wonder if some of this is because we were so used to getting information from magazines, and now magazines don't really exist anymore where we're like, I want guidance. Where's my guidance? Like, I just want pants. Just show me pants.

[Heather Cox]

And I don't feel like if somebody decided, I'm gonna make Lucky work digitally, I'm gonna make some kind of site that's gonna be what Lucky is and give that kind of guidance. I don't even know if people would want that now, though.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Jessica Morgan]

I don't know. But, like, when we did, like, a denim guide, and it was, like, six pages of denim, like, it was annoying to write all those captions.

[Kim France]

No.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, I.

[Jessica Morgan]

But at least you were different differentiating this category of denim. This is who will fit. And here's what's good about each one of these pairs. It was hideous to write, but I think very useful.

[Jen Romolini]

I was like, oh, yeah, short leg. That's me. Okay. I Wrote way back in the day. One of my very first jobs out of college was I wrote all of the product descriptions for lamps dot com. So I know how you feel.

[Kim France]

I was like, she liked Ariana Grande's dressing dress.

[Jessica Morgan]

That's true.

[Jen Romolini]

That's why I was like, lampshade. You know, for a while you're fine, but then you get to like lamp 300 and you want to say like, it's a fucking lamp. Like, look at the picture. It's going to look good on your desk. Then buy it. I don't care.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes, exactly, exactly.

[Heather Cox]

I know that Jennifer Romolini can relate very deeply to what you just said.

[Jen Romolini]

Jessica, just buy it.

[Jessica Morgan]

I don't fucking care. Or no, but you're right, the affiliate link thing is actually because it's, it's the same with skin care too. If, Cuz you know, Amazon gives the best affiliate commission. If it's not on Amazon, you're finding something else. If the, if this, if the product doesn't have any kind of affiliate, there's no way you're recommending it because it's just a waste. It's just a waste. You're not going to make a cut.

[Kim France]

I know, it's crazy. But then on the other end of things you get people being like, looking at this outfit. I just love these pants. They're Balenciaga. The boots are Kate. And here's a budget swap. And the budget swap is $700. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Okay. I don't think you understand me.

[Jessica Morgan]

Exactly. I don't think you understand what my budget is.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah, that's like toxic, old school women's magazines.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes, very much so. And like in a sense, like when I say I'm looking for someone to tell me what to wear, I don't mean like Vogue.

[Jessica Morgan]

Vogue was like, oh, Vogue was like.

[Jen Romolini]

Buy this $900 pair of pants. But like there were magazines where you'd be like, oh, I love Vogue. This is aspirational, whatever. But I'm going to pick up this magazine. It's going to be more like, babe, here's your pants from Express. It'll be like, oh, okay, that's right, exactly. It's just G and G. The death of print has hurt all of us in a variety of ways. A myriad of issues have arisen from this.

[Kim France]

Yeah. Oh man. I just need, yeah, I just need help. I'm like, I need someone who's my height and size and at my level of like perimenopause to just like tell me, try and help me. Try on some pants and figure out what my body can handle. And that's. And that's it. So substack. Come on.

[Jessica Morgan]

Which celebrities are you both obsessed with right now? Style wise, though, there has to be someone or any or not or, you know, whatever. But which, like. Cause there's something that keeps you doing this and keeps you excited about it. So, like, what? What is it? Who is it?

[Kim France]

That's a really good question. I think sometimes it's just the promise of any spectacle. Like award season is a gauntlet. But you always know you're gonna get a lot of fun stuff to ogle, I think. I mean, I think Zendaya is the boring but obvious answer because she's someone people really like to talk about, whether they love or hate what she's doing. The dialogue is always interesting. So she's an easy one. I think. Gosh, who else? Sometimes it's not so much that I love what they're wearing, but that I'm impressed by their ability to carry it. So, for example, Cynthia Eriva would be a good one. That woman is like as tall as a thimble, but when you see her in a picture, she has the presence of a 6 foot 3 woman. She just like, she wore. And like all issues with Dolce and Gabbana aside, she wore a Dolce and Gabbana suit to something the other week. And she looked. I think it was. Anyway, she looked fantastic. I mean, she just. She looked so sharp and crisp and like a badass business babe. And I just was like, I love you. You have so much presence that you can wear a dress with like crazy lapels, like, sticking out of your. And like, people look at you like it's always her. She's always the central focus of everything she's wearing, even when it's insane. And so I find that fascinating. Like, just how much of it comes down to presence and magnetism and understanding your own presence and magnetism and how and where you have it and where you don't. You know, I look at someone. Apologies. Not really, though, to Lily Rose Depp, who I think has no personal magnetism in pictures. I can't. I've never seen her act. So let's.

[Jen Romolini]

We'll just say she's so much better an actor than I. I don't know if Kim's gonna agree with this. I thought she was great in the Idol, even though I hated the Idol and I thought it was terrible. I was surprised by how good she was on screen and I heard she's great in Nosferatu.

[Heather Cox]

Really?

[Jen Romolini]

Yes. I heard she's great, but I agree. I didn't see it, but I think.

[Jessica Morgan]

But also when you have Vanessa Paradis face and then you have to go and get all this fucking work done. So now you look like a Kewpie doll. Like, that is really. I'm sorry, that's. But I feel like she's had so much, like, young person work done on that very beautiful and interesting face that annoys me because it's, like, so overly perfect now. I find her not interesting to look at.

[Jen Romolini]

Her affect in photos. In still photos, I think is very flat.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Kim France]

And, like, to me, I'm like, it doesn't help that she's wearing Chanel, but I just think she couldn't sell. And I find Emily Ratajkowski is the same. I don't. She's a model by trade. And I would never buy anything based on how she sells it because I don't think she actually wears clothes in photos convincingly. Like, walking down the street, I might be like, hot damn, that is a great pair of pants. But I find that she's very flat in pictures. And so I think there's an interesting sort of. Yeah, the people who are kind of aware of what they can pull off and then do it. It's a magic trick. It really is. And it's one that I don't have, which maybe is why I'm extra awed by it, because I say all these things about flat affect in photos. I am horribly unplugenic. So, like, I get it. I totally do.

[Jen Romolini]

I don't really think there's a single celebrity that I am that interested in.

[Jessica Morgan]

Is that terrible?

[Jen Romolini]

I think after doing this for this many years, I have worked the celebrity fixation out of my body. There are some people I really like. Like, a friend of mine, I really think he was trying to wind me up the other day. He turns to me and he goes, I just don't get Emma Stone. And I was like, how dare you? I love Emma Stone. And, like, he goes, straight women are very defensive about Emma Stone. And I was like, leave her alone. So, like, I get it. Like, I do love Emma Stone. There's certainly celebrities I have affection for. There are celebrities I. I have fondness for. There are certainly celebrities where I'm like, this person is charming as hell. Like, I think Megan Thee stallion has and Cardi B. Both of them insane charisma. When you watch them talk, you're like, holy shit. This person was always gonna be a superstar. They are so charming. And so I recognize that. And, like, I enjoy it. I am still a human. I'm not a zombie yet. But I just. I think I'm gonna be 50. I've lived through a lot of celebrity shit. You should never be too attached to a celebrity. They are gonna do some shit. You are not gonna be happy about it. Maybe they won't. Maybe you're gonna luck out. But, like, you know, I think about people who get quotes from books by people who are still alive tattooed on them, and I think, don't do that. This is a bad idea. You might regret this. And I kind of feel that about celebrities. And I know this doesn't necessarily have to do with style, but I do think that, like, your overall take on a celebrity does play into, like, if you love their style, I just, like, I don't get attached to them anymore. Don't get attached to celebrities. Do not do it, stylistically or otherwise. They are going to break your heart.

[Kim France]

Yes. And you know what? Like, Reddit has contributed to that a lot too, because the more you read, like, the gossip threads on Reddit or whatever, and you start seeing the pods of fandoms that get so worked up in one direction or another about somebody, and you're like, I don't have that kind of energy. And I'm glad I don't have that kind of energy.

[Jen Romolini]

I did when I was, like, 25.

[Kim France]

If the Bachelor hired the Reddit people to investigate their cast before they put them on tv, every skeleton would come out of their closet. Like, those people are citizen detectives. It would. I just think there's nothing they can't figure out. And I am frightened and awed by it in equal measure. But I just. Yeah, I find that that is a platform where you really are exposed to the zealotry in both directions. Like, the. I, oh, my God, I hate this person so much. Everything they do is because they are an evil bitch and they are conspiring against other women actively, blah, blah, blah. And then you get the pros where it's like. And just, like, there never seems to be a middle ground. And that's where I'm kind of like, I just don't have the energy for either of those. And, like, these are people I just. People I don't know and I will never know. So I'm just gonna consume their art and hope that they don't embarrass themselves.

[Jen Romolini]

And, like, stylistically, I do think some of this is because everyone is so styled. You don't know anyone's personal style anymore. Like, I know everyone hates her now, but I always loved Gwyneth Paltrow. I just did.

[Jessica Morgan]

Same, same.

[Jen Romolini]

I loved her now, like, she's doing. Who the hell knows what she's doing up in.

[Jessica Morgan]

Well, she's a parody of a person.

[Jen Romolini]

But yeah, she has no longer the goop she was in, let's say 1997. And I think back on like, oh, like that Tom Ford suit or like, oh, my God. Which I've wanted my whole life and I'm gonna be 90 when I can afford it. But a 90 year old woman would look amazing in that Tom Ford Faguchi suit. I will make that happen. And there isn't anyone like that for me anymore. And I don't know if it's because I've just sort of like aged out of that or because everyone is so sponsored now that you aren't really getting like, here's like Gwyneth walking down the street in these great pants and like this cool sandals. I don't know, I'm just making shit up now. But you know what I mean?

[Heather Cox]

Just like, we know too much.

[Kim France]

Yeah, we know too much. We know that, like, I'm sorry, but Katie Holmes knows the paparazzi are there.

[Jessica Morgan]

That's right.

[Kim France]

She just like, you can't convince me she doesn't. Maybe she called them, maybe she didn't. But she knows they're there. She's not wearing the stuff by accident.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

And I think we know too much now about like, yeah, that person. It is possible to move through the world unseen if that's what you want in certain circumstances. More difficult, depending on what's going on in your personal life, if you're a celebrity. But for the most part, like, you look at like Taylor Swift. Where is she right now?

[Heather Cox]

Yep, yep. Even ever since the super bowl, they have been off the radar. It's kind of amazing.

[Jen Romolini]

The most famous woman in the world.

[Kim France]

No idea where they are.

[Heather Cox]

Well, there are like websites that are devoted entirely to like her private planes and where they're flying. I know, like, no privacy.

[Jen Romolini]

But we don't know where she is right now. We don't know. Somebody probably does.

[Jessica Morgan]

Or like, someone like. Yes, Jennifer Lopez, right?

[Kim France]

Yes, exactly.

[Jen Romolini]

Where's J. Lo right now?

[Jessica Morgan]

Always dressed up. But Jennifer Lopez, like, knows the minute she leaves her house, she is like, I am going to be photographed. And there's never, there's not a hair out of place. She loves being a celebrity.

[Jen Romolini]

She's wearing good jeans. She looks cute. I love J. I want J. Lo to be Happy. I really do. Like, this woman believes in love. Let her find it.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes, that's right.

[Kim France]

Yes, for sure. But, like, it's very. We're so aware of all of these things now and that, like, when. That people can choose to be caught by the paparazzi if they want. Like, that it's all messaging and there's social media. Like, we just know everyone's everywhere. We know everything. And, like, I remember during. It wasn't just during COVID but I think it may have been just after Covid or maybe during the strikes or whatever. Like, the most consistent celebrity candid photo that we would get on Getty Images every day was Olivia Wilde leaving the gym in leggings and a sports bra every day. Every day. And I was like, okay, I guess. But, like, that feels intentional. And there's also some guy from Dancing with the Stars was always, like, shirtless.

[Jen Romolini]

With his motorcycle every day or at the gas station. Who is the shirtless man at the gas station? Oh, he's not Dancing with the Stars.

[Kim France]

All right. He called, and you're like, at a certain point, maybe the photographers are just bored, and they're like, I guess we'll go to the gas station. Maybe Sasha.

[Heather Cox]

What's.

[Kim France]

His face will be there. But, like, for them. Then you're like, no, I think it's these people want to be seen for some reason. Right.

[Jen Romolini]

The Kardashians.

[Jessica Morgan]

The Kardashians want to be seen.

[Kim France]

I just think we're missing that mystique of the 90s when, like, you wouldn't see much, but then you'd see a picture of Gwyneth with, like, a cigarette in a maxi dress with Winona Ryder. Right.

[Heather Cox]

Or, like, in the bar, Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, you know, looking amazing. Nobody ever styled Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

[Jen Romolini]

No.

[Heather Cox]

Well, they probably did, actually.

[Jen Romolini]

I'm sure they did. But, like, she didn't enjoy. I mean, like, not that we should.

[Kim France]

Be, like, she might have. We don't know.

[Jen Romolini]

I think we. I think she did not. Yeah. I just think Heather's right. There's, like, we know too much now.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

But it's better when you got less. You. Well, like I said about why I don't really have, like, attachments to celebrities anymore, because when you didn't know anything, you could, like, project stuff on them.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

And now, like, you're like, oh, I love so and so. And then someone will be like, well, I hope you know he's anti vax. And you're like, uh, all right, well, cross that one. Off the list. Do you know what I mean? Like, I kind of don't. This is why I always say no celebrity should run their own social media. No, we don't need to know anything.

[Kim France]

Everyone should say less.

[Jen Romolini]

We should know less. We should know less about everyone. Like, please, I. Yes. I don't want to know anything about anyone is how I feel.

[Kim France]

Like.

[Jen Romolini]

I just don't want to know. Leave me out of it.

[Heather Cox]

Hilarious.

[Jessica Morgan]

What do the two of you still want to do?

[Kim France]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jen Romolini]

I'd love to win the lottery.

[Kim France]

That's my number one aspirational. I'd like to still have a home in five years and vote.

[Jen Romolini]

This is going depressing.

[Kim France]

I know. Everything's dark.

[Jen Romolini]

I think everyone's in kind of like a hole right now.

[Kim France]

Essential funk. Yeah. Yeah.

[Heather Cox]

It's really good that you guys were on as guests this week because the last two weeks we've been really pissing off our listeners with what a bummer we've been.

[Jen Romolini]

Oh, no, we're being a bummer right now.

[Kim France]

I know.

[Jen Romolini]

I don't know.

[Jessica Morgan]

No, you don't understand our level of bummer.

[Kim France]

It was not great.

[Jessica Morgan]

It's hard to be in the. It's hard to be putting out content in this time.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes.

[Jessica Morgan]

Especially because the trolls can find you anywhere. They're just coming for you in, like, unexpected places. You know, you're just like. I think I find it very. I find it very intense to put out. Put out content every week and have. Get. Be able to get a lot of feedback everywhere. We've talked about knowing the celebrities too much. I feel like people have too much access to us, you know, and then you don't want to block access to you. You've been lucky.

[Kim France]

Yeah, we've been lucky. Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

Block access if you can.

[Kim France]

Yeah. Protect. Protect your peace.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kim France]

There's a. We were laughing about that because there is a stylist who we found out has blocked us on Instagram and blocked us and did the thing where, like, blocked our Fug Girls account. And then it comes up and it's like, this person also has other accounts. Do you want to block those, too? So our personal accounts are also blocked.

[Jen Romolini]

We're blocked all over the place. Bless her heart.

[Kim France]

Good for her. Good for you. Like, absolutely. We often did not like her work and there's no reason she should have to look at that if she doesn't want to. Don't read the comments. Don't read the reviews of your books. Don't block us.

[Jen Romolini]

She should have blocked us. She should have blocked us years ago.

[Kim France]

Block the hell out of me.

[Jen Romolini]

Go for it.

[Kim France]

I know. I was like, I feel like this is supposed to hurt my feelings, but I'm kind of. I salute you. I actually am kind of proud of you.

[Heather Cox]

Well, I will end on saying that if it wasn't for you guys writing something funny and mean about a lucky cover, we never would have become friends.

[Jen Romolini]

I know, but you. Thank you for having a good sense of humor.

[Jessica Morgan]

Wait, what did you. Which cover?

[Jen Romolini]

I don't remember. Do you remember?

[Heather Cox]

I want to say it's Kristen Bell, but I could be wrong.

[Jen Romolini]

I don't remember.

[Jessica Morgan]

I mean, there could be so many covers. It could be.

[Heather Cox]

I mean, any. You just take a pick. Any B list actress from that era would. Would probably fit.

[Jen Romolini]

Well, I remember going to meet you, and you. You telling us something that I found very interesting, and it was that you didn't always like the COVID that you chose, but that if you didn't pick one where they were smiley, it wouldn't sell. And I was like, this explains a lot. Every time I see a really smiley cover, I think of that. I was like, well, you got to move magazines. Like, I get it. It's a business.

[Heather Cox]

Yeah.

[Jessica Morgan]

But also focus groups. Focus groups were involved, and it was like, they liked it better. And it was. You know, I just found, like, a focus group group that.

[Kim France]

Exactly.

[Jessica Morgan]

I found a focus group binder the other day, and I was like, what the fuck is this?

[Jen Romolini]

Like, oh, it works.

[Kim France]

The whole. Like, you'd look. Why don't you just have a smile on your face? You'd look so much prettier if you smiled. Kind of thing where you just kind of want to punch. Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

This whole joke, no one could see me, that I'm getting, like, double fingers. Misty.

[Jessica Morgan]

Double fingers in the double smile. But, Jessica, what do you still want to do before we. Before we roll out?

[Jen Romolini]

Oh, God, is it horrible if I don't really have any ambitions besides honestly winning the lottery? I don't know. I mean, I would like to continue to be able to be a professional writer. Is that. Does that count?

[Kim France]

That's perfectly appropriate in this economy.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes. Yes, that's it. Yeah.

[Kim France]

I'd love for us to write another book someday. I'd love to do that. I just think, like, when your break from writing, one thing is shifting your wheelie chair over 2 inches and writing something else, you get a little fried. But, like, I feel like we would. Yeah, we would love to keep writing, and maybe that is one way we can do it. Substack. Has been great.

[Jen Romolini]

Subscribe to our substack.

[Heather Cox]

Yes. Drinks with broads.

[Kim France]

As you know, it's been reinvigorating. It's fun to have a different platform and a different medium to play with and different stuff to yap about.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yes.

[Heather Cox]

So true.

[Jen Romolini]

It's fun. We like it.

[Jessica Morgan]

Yeah. Thanks for being here. Thanks for coming to have both of you. Thank you. And yes.

[Kim France]

Oh my God. Any.

[Jessica Morgan]

Absolutely. We will put the substack in the show notes. People should follow you. You guys are still putting out great shit. So thank you so much.

[Jen Romolini]

Thank you. That's a huge compliment.

[Kim France]

We love you guys. Anytime we will be here. Just say the word.

[Jessica Morgan]

Thanks for listening to Everything is fine. We're your host. I'm Jen Romolini.

[Heather Cox]

And I'm Kim France.

[Kim France]

If you like the show, please rate.

[Jessica Morgan]

And review it across the platforms. It really helps people find the show. It makes a difference. If you want to support the production of the show, you can join our [e-mail] everythingisfine. We do special style and skincare tips there and that is where our show notes live. If you want to find Kim, you can find Kim at Kim France. Substack.com you can find me at jenramalini. Substack.com you can Find us both on a robust and private Facebook group. Though I might be tapping out of Facebook. Honestly, I might not be on Facebook for a while. I don't think it's not making me feel good.

[Heather Cox]

Okay, well, this is a topic to.

[Jessica Morgan]

Explore, to explore and to discuss later. We're also on Instagram if podcast. The show is mixed and edited by the wonderful Natalie Rivera and Natalie four people's voices this week. Thank you so much. Jesus Christ. You, you do it all. And we'll be back next week.

[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

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