Episode 12: Purgatory

Summary

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Everything They Missed

Episode 12: Purgatory

Host: Stephanie Tinsley
Date: June 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

In "Purgatory," host Stephanie Tinsley delves into a dramatic turning point in the decades-long quest for justice in the 2007 murder of Danny Harris, unpacking the stunning death of a key suspect on the eve of her arraignment and the devastating impact of delays on the wrongfully convicted Andrew Hayes and both the Harris and Hayes families. Through candid conversations, firsthand calls, and expert insight from innocence advocates, the episode exposes the excruciatingly slow process of righting wrongful convictions and the emotional purgatory endured by families waiting for justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Death of Sarah Rydell (Lucas) and Immediate Fallout

• Announcement of Death:

  • (01:57–04:27) The episode opens with Stephen Harris relaying the shocking news of Sarah’s death just days after her extradition from Oklahoma to Memphis, reportedly due to a stroke before her arraignment. This moment is raw and unscripted, revealing the frustration, disbelief, and sense of irony among those closest to the case.
  • Quote:
    • Stephen Harris: “You could not make this up. I think it was the fact that her being moved is what caused the stroke.” (03:14)
    • Unknown Colleague: “Bro, you got the answers you wanted. And then you also got her indicted, and then you also got her back to Memphis...if you wouldn’t have captured all this, then she would still probably just be living...her life in Duncan, right?” (03:31)

• Media Reaction & Legal Implications:

  • (06:14–07:06) With the suspect gone, the focus shifts to what this means for Andrew Hayes’ exoneration, as reporters scramble and the DA assures the process will continue undeterred.

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2. Andrew Hayes: Hope, Devastation, and Delay

• Andrew’s Pending Release:

  • (07:51–10:32) On the heels of Sarah’s death, anticipation builds around Andrew’s court hearing, with his family hopeful for his release. The narrative’s tension peaks as news breaks that the hearing is canceled: Judge Lupon recuses himself, causing another indefinite delay. Andrew, transported from prison with hope, is returned without answers.
  • Quote:
    • Flora Hayes: “He super excited to call me all morning long. Mama, I’m downtown. I’m here...I wonder if they gonna let me go home tomorrow after all this go on.” (09:06)

• Family’s Suffering:

  • The segment is marked by the family's dashed hopes and emotional strain.
  • Quote:
    • Narrator: “For one brief moment, Andrew could almost taste what life on the outside might feel like. And then the door slammed shut again.” (10:32)

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3. The Reality of Fighting for Innocence

• Legal Labyrinth & Emotional Toll:

  • (11:38–14:55) Interviews with Barry Scheck (co-founder, Innocence Project) and Jason Gishner (Andrew’s attorney) shed light on the protracted struggle for exoneration. Listeners learn that the median timeline for freeing an innocent person—after advocacy begins—is 10 to 13 years.
  • Quotes:
    • Barry Scheck: “We’ve got close to 4,000 exonerations since 1989. And, you know, what you have in this case are all the different factors that we ordinarily see in wrongful convictions.” (12:10)
    • Jason Gishner: “It’s way easier to put an innocent person in prison than it is to get him out...How is he still sitting in prison? It’s still not that simple.” (12:39)
    • Stephanie Tinsley: “Uncovering the truth is one thing. Actually getting an innocent person out of prison, it’s something entirely different.” (11:38)

• Importance of Grassroots Effort and Media:

  • (14:12–14:24) Scheck and Tinsley emphasize the crucial role of family, press, and community activism.
  • Quotes:
    • Barry Scheck: “The media always helps.” (14:12)
    • “It’s always a grassroots effort. You’re going to need some grassroots support for this.” (14:18)

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4. Chains of Randomness and Long-Term Impact

• How Innocence is Lost:

  • (16:14–16:42) The episode underscores how a trivial, kind action (Andrew giving two women a ride) forever changed his life, serving as a chilling reminder of fate’s hand in wrongful convictions.
  • Quote:
    • Stephanie Tinsley: “That single kind-hearted decision changed the trajectory of his entire life. And when you really sit with that, it’s hard not to think about how thin the line can be between an ordinary day and losing everything.” (16:42)

• Enduring Trauma on Families:

  • (17:05–20:44) Flora and Laconda Hayes discuss over a decade of loss: missed birthdays, children growing up without knowing their uncle, and the sustained psychological toll of uncertainty.
  • Quotes:
    • Flora Hayes: “I just turned 59...My son been gone 18 years.” (20:02, 20:05)
    • Laconda Hayes: “My kids even say that they don’t know they uncle, but everybody else gets to go around and live their life...my brother is just sitting in jail.” (20:44)

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5. Looking Forward: The Next Court Date and Final Hopes

• The Stakes of June 29:

  • (21:34–22:23) All eyes turn to the newly scheduled hearing, with three possible outcomes: denial (unlikely), immediate release, or the judge taking the case under advisement.
  • Quote:
    • Jason Gishner: “The judge could overturn Andrew’s conviction from the bench that day, meaning Andrew could walk free in just days.” (22:13)

• Final Reflections & Generational Cost:

  • (22:23–23:17) Stephen Harris wrestles with whether his relentless pursuit of truth might alienate his family but ultimately frames his efforts as honoring his father and pursuing real justice—not just for Andrew, but for all of Danny Harris’s kin.
  • Quote:
    • Stephen Harris: “Saying all this and doing all this, it was me trying to say, hey, my dad’s life matter. I hope they do understand everything about Andrew and can see the evidence for what it is.” (23:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You could not make this up.” – Stephen Harris (03:14)
• “Uncovering the truth is one thing. Actually getting an innocent person out of prison, it's something entirely different.” – Stephanie Tinsley (11:38)
• “It’s always a grassroots effort. You’re going to need some grassroots support for this.” – Barry Scheck (14:18)
• “That single kind-hearted decision changed the trajectory of his entire life...how thin the line can be between an ordinary day and losing everything.” – Stephanie Tinsley (16:42)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:57–04:27: First notification of Sarah Lucas’ (Rydell’s) death and its implications.
• 06:14–07:06: Media responds; DA and Tinsley discuss how this impacts Hayes’ case.
• 09:06–10:32: Andrew’s family responds to last-minute hearing cancellation.
• 11:38–14:55: Innocence Project’s Barry Scheck and attorney Jason Gishner unpack systemic barriers.
• 16:14–16:42: The unnoticed cause of Andrew’s conviction—a simple, kind act.
• 17:05–20:44: Family trauma, loss, and anger due to the drawn-out legal ordeal.
• 21:34–22:23: Explaining the possibilities for the June 29 hearing.
• 22:23–23:17: Stephen Harris considers the personal cost of fighting for truth.

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Tone & Style

The episode is somber, empathetic, and relentless in pursuit of truth, balancing legal analysis with the profoundly human cost of inaction. The voices of family members stand out as raw and candid, while expert commentary is pragmatic but hopeful about the power of community and advocacy. The episode closes with a sense of cautious anticipation, as both families brace for the next pivotal moment in court on June 29.

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Summary

"Purgatory" vividly depicts the real-life limbo of families touched by wrongful conviction, showing how even the most stunning revelations—like a suspect’s death or a DA’s declaration of innocence—cannot alone restore lives or repair decades of loss. It underscores that justice is rarely swift, often incomplete, and always experienced most acutely by those awaiting it from both sides of the courtroom doors. As the hearing approaches, the question remains: will Memphis finally give both the Hayes and Harris families the justice they’ve been denied for so long?

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Transcript

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[Stephanie Tinsley]

SPACE80@talk space.com the following story discusses individuals connected to the case of Danny Harris. Except for those who have been convicted or formally charged in connection with this case, no person mentioned in this series has been officially named a suspect, person of interest, or found guilty of any crime related to his death.

[Stephen Harris]

Hello?

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Hey.

[Stephen Harris]

Hey.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

What's going on?

[Stephen Harris]

You wouldn't believe it. She's dead.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

She's dead.

[Stephen Harris]

She is dead.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Are you kidding me? What happened?

[Narrator/Reporter]

Stephen Harris called me with news that hadn't been announced yet. But according to his well placed sources, Sarah was extradited by ambulance from Oklahoma to Memphis, Tennessee just a few days later.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

She suffered a medical emergency at the hospital.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The day before her arraignment, they were

[Stephen Harris]

getting her offer Dilaudid to get her where she's not so loopy for her video arraignment tomorrow. And she had a stroke this morning that didn't look like she's gonna make it.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

This had not been confirmed, but was information Stephen received from people he trusted and passed along to me.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

I don't even know what to say Wow.

[Stephen Harris]

I don't fucking either. Yeah, it's done. I mean, I can't get a break here. Is this. You could not make this up. I think it was the fact that her being moved is what caused the stroke. Probably broke up a clot she had just sitting around the, you know, the hospital for so long. That's what I'm guessing.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

She died in Memphis. She died.

[Stephen Harris]

It don't matter. She was dying anyway. But I. I know, but just.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Bro, you got the answers you wanted. And then you also got her indicted, and then you also got her back to Memphis. And the one thing that you told me, if she's gonna die, she needs to die in Memphis. Like that phrase has stuck with me the last couple of weeks. And you got that. You got that. And think of it this way, like, if she wouldn't have been caught, if you wouldn't have captured all of this, then she would still probably just be living her. Whatever life in Duncan, right?

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah. Oh, my Lord. Well, keep it just between us until they release something, because they don't. They gotta notify the whole family. And then all that other stuff. Ain't that some bullshit, though?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm Stephanie Tinsley, and this is everything they missed. Episode 12 Purgatory

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[Narrator/Reporter]

After nearly two decades of escaping justice. Sarah died just one day before she was supposed to appear in a court for the very first time in the state of Tennessee. As the news started to break across Memphis, the all of us were left trying to process what this would now mean for Andrew's future. The media went wild with the story.

[Laconda Hayes]

The effort to free a man convicted in connection with the 2007 murder continues, but the new suspect who was key to the release of Andrew Hayes has died in custody. The sheriff's office says that she was in poor health by the time she got here.

[Stephen Harris]

Podcast host Stephanie Tinsley joined me and Shelby County DA Steve Mulroy Wednesday afternoon to talk about the death of Sarah Lucas, Lucas Rydell, and the effort to free Andrew Hayes.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I was technically there to be interviewed alongside DA Mulroy, but I completely jumped into reporter mode and started asking the questions I wanted answers to.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

You disclose the manner of death for Sarah?

[Stephen Harris]

I don't know any of the details right now.

[Shopify Business Owner]

We know that she had been sick

[Stephen Harris]

with cancer for a while and had

[Shopify Business Owner]

been given a terminal diagnosis.

[Stephen Harris]

And as far as we know, that's why she died. Mulroy says Rydell's death should not throw the push for Hayes exoneration off track.

[Shopify Business Owner]

We are going to make sure that we let the court know what we

[Stephanie Tinsley]

think about the innocence of Andrew Hayes.

[Stephen Harris]

But a court will have to decide whether to let him walk free.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And that court date, Andrew's next court date, it had been scheduled for the next day, February 19, 2026. The day after Sarah was found dead. Obviously, it had been on the calendar for weeks now. No one ever expecting Sarah's death might overshadow it. So with barely any time to process Sarah's death, all attention turned back to Andrew. But after everything that had happened, there was a growing sense that something extraordinary could happen tomorrow. Would Andrew walk free? But then, if we hadn't had enough surprises, my phone rings. It's Andrew's lawyer. With another blow. The hearing was off. Judge Ray Lupon had recused himself from the case due to a conflict of interest. I was devastated. And then my phone rang. It was Laconda, Andrew's sister, telling me Andrew had already made the two hour journey from Northwest Correctional Complex to downtown Memphis for the hearing.

[Flora Hayes]

But what this means for Andrew, because he super excited to call me all morning long. Mama, I'm downtown. I'm here. I'm like, okay, cool. He like, I'm excited. He like, I wonder if they gonna let me go home tomorrow after all this. Go on. I was like, I don't know, but they need to be like, yeah. He said he do not want to go back to prison.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Andrew was sitting inside 201 Poplar, the very building where his nightmare had begun 19 years earlier. He thought the hearing was still happening.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Yeah, I think Jason, Andrew's lawyer, told me that Andrew's not having his hearing tomorrow because they assigned the case to a new judge. So I don't know when his next hearing is going to be, and I don't know if they'll just keep him at 2001 until that hearing happens. I'm not sure yet.

[Flora Hayes]

Somebody finna go tell him this. This gonna be hard on him this morning, I'm telling you. He was so excited. So excited. And he broke it down. He was wrongfully convicted in that. Dad was exonerating him for this.

[Laconda Hayes]

He said.

[Flora Hayes]

So he's just trying to figure out why do they got him just sitting up in there? I don't know. I just. I was sitting here thinking. I was like, well, since he had 201, I wonder, can I go down there and see him? I need to see my brother face.

[Narrator/Reporter]

But before Laconda could make it to 201 Poplar, before she could look into the eyes of a brother she hadn't seen in more than a decade, Andrew was whisked away. Back to prison, back to the cell he never should have occupied in the first place. The Hayes family was robbed again. No embrace. No moment together. Just another ride down the Tennessee highway, away from his family and away from the freedom that had seemed so close. For one brief moment, Andrew could almost taste what life on the outside might feel like. And then the door slammed shut again. We're still waiting on a hearing. After Judge Lupin recused himself in February, a new judge was assigned to Andrew's case. The next hearing was scheduled for May 11, 2026, and then rescheduled again for June 29.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And that's when the reality of innocence work really started to hit me. Because uncovering the truth is one thing. Actually getting an innocent person out of prison, it's something entirely different. And it brought me back to a conversation I once had with the Innocence Project co founder, Barry Scheck. Long before podcasts and documentaries were exposing wrongful convictions to mainstream audiences, Barry Scheck was helping lead the movement to free innocent people from prison.

[Barry Scheck]

We started this 33 years ago. You know, I think we, you know, we've got close to 4,000 exonerations since 1989. And, you know, what you have in this case are all the different factors that we ordinarily see in wrongful convictions.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

What Barry and Jason kept explaining to me was that Andrew's case wasn't some impossible once in a generation mistake. In a lot of ways, it was familiar.

[Jason Gishner]

It's way easier to put an innocent person in prison than it is to get him out. So even though we've, you know, we. We've come all of this way and we have all of this evidence, and you hear it and you see it and you're just like, oh, my God,

[Stephen Harris]

this is a travesty.

[Jason Gishner]

How is he still sitting in prison? It's still not that simple. It's still a long, complicated legal process, and we need to get through that, you know, before we know if Andrew ever walks out of prison or not.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And even though a wrongful conviction like Andrew's is way too common an occurrence, the fact that the investigation to a confession from the killer is a rarity, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the court is going to fast track his release.

[Jason Gishner]

Timeline can vary depending upon what happens in court. Usually takes anywhere from 10 to 13 years from the start to when you get exonerated, from when someone starts working on it for you.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

10 to 13 years, and that's after somebody starts working your case. I think most people assume once new evidence comes out, the system corrects itself. But innocence work doesn't really happen in dramatic movie moments. A lot of it is slow, painfully slow. Court filings, hearings, appeals, waiting. And one thing Barry explained to me was that innocence work almost never happens through lawyers alone. How much do you think that media helps, though?

[Barry Scheck]

The media always helps.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And I think it's going to be a grassroots effort. I think it's going to be a grassroots effort.

[Barry Scheck]

It's always a grassroots effort. You know, you're going to need some grassroots support for this.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

That really stayed with me because before this podcast, I think I pictured innocence work as lawyers uncovering evidence inside courtrooms. But what Barry was describing was something much bigger. Families, communities, media attention, pressure, people refusing to let a story disappear. And even then, none of it guarantees freedom.

[Jason Gishner]

So, you know, the primary concern is what's best for Andrew here. And, you know, trying to overturn a conviction is like climbing a mountain. It. It's. It's a really hard thing to do. And we're in the middle of this fight, and I don't know how it's going to.

[Flora Hayes]

It.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The heartbreaking detail that I keep coming back to is the only reason Andrew Hayes was ever pointed out into Danny Harris's murder investigation was because he gave two women a ride to the police station.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

So do you think if he wouldn't have given Shawana and Snow a ride up there the first time, I don't

[Flora Hayes]

think he would have even been in this trouble. I think they just Saw him waiting on them and figured, yeah, well, this,

[Stephanie Tinsley]

this easy topic, that single kind hearted decision. Decision changed the trajectory of his entire life. And when you really sit with that, it's hard not to think about how thin the line can be between an ordinary day and losing everything.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And nearly 20 years later, his family,

[Stephanie Tinsley]

his son Tamarion, is still waiting for it to be undone. Among the whirlwind of media interviews after the DA's press conference proclaiming Andrew's innocence, a reporter asked Tamarion about the possibility of his father not coming home.

[Flora Hayes]

What's that gonna make you guys feel

[Juan Naula]

like if that doesn't happen though?

[Flora Hayes]

I mean, what do you guys do as a family? How do you handle that? We can't get discouraged because this legal stuff take time and it's a process.

[Narrator/Reporter]

I was impressed with Tamarion's resolve then. I still am. But it's been over six months of waiting and despondency has begun to creep in.

[Laconda Hayes]

I really thought he was coming home.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And I think something that gets lost in innocence cases sometimes is the waiting. Not just for the person sitting inside the prison, but for everyone outside too. Because while the legal system moves slowly, life doesn't.

[Flora Hayes]

I am older, my husband notice that. So lately I just been stressing, I've been depressed on what's taking so long? Why is it taking so long? Why is it keep getting postponed? But Miami, I mean, I started stressing. I'm trying to keep it together for the family because everybody is looking at me, but it's kind of hard,

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

you

[Flora Hayes]

know, and he's calling every other day and I'm talking to him. He's stressing, I'm stressing. I mean, it's really taking a toll on me. I'm barely holding on, but when I break down, I break down in the room by myself.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Andrew is fully aware of what the DA has now said publicly, what the media is reporting, and what so many people now believe about his innocence. But none of that changes the reality that every night he still goes to sleep inside his prison cell. I asked Flora what those daily phone calls with Andrew sound like now.

[Flora Hayes]

I mean, he is so frustrated. He was like, mom, I started losing weight because, you know, the frustration and you lost your appetite. And like I told him, I have too. Maybe I take maybe three bites out of food that I'm full. I am so stressed out, but I gotta keep going.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And with each passing day turning into weeks, then months, it begins to feel like that momentum that would carry the truth to the gates of the prison had begun to ebb, hope began to seem more like a dream than some imminent reality.

[Laconda Hayes]

Cause I miss my son.

[Flora Hayes]

I just turned 59.

[Laconda Hayes]

My son been gone 18 years.

[Flora Hayes]

Over 18 years.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Entire families frozen in grief while the rest of the world keeps moving. And for Andrew's younger sister, Laconda, that grief eventually turned into anger.

[Laconda Hayes]

Y' all just been letting my brother sit in there, Sit in there. It's not fair to us at all.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Listening to Lakanda talk, you realize she's not just mourning lost time. She's mourning an entire version of her life her family never got to have.

[Laconda Hayes]

I have two children. My youngest twin, who my kid, my brother never met at all. I have to send him pictures. That's not the same. My kids even say that they don't know they uncle, but everybody else gets to go around and live their life. Everybody's siblings get the love on they kids and do all this, but my brother is just sitting in jail.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

There is no giving this family those years back. And even now, his family is still waking up every day not knowing if he's coming home.

[Flora Hayes]

I mean, Ms. Stephanie. It's a waiting game. I'm not gonna lose hope. It's just what's taking him so long.

[Narrator/Reporter]

So now, as this episode is being released, Andrew's hearing is scheduled for June 29.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

After nearly two decades in prison, everything now comes down to what happens next in a Memphis courtroom. Jason Gishner explained to me the upcoming hearing could go one of three ways. One, the judge could deny the hearing altogether, though after everything that's happened publicly in this case, that would be surprising. Two, the judge could overturn Andrew's conviction from the bench that day, meaning Andrew could walk free in just days.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Or three, what feels more likely, the judge could hear the evidence, take the case under advisement, and rule later.

[Stephen Harris]

I think when my family looks back and can see all this, I think that's going to be the thing for me, is when they're going to be able to sit there and say, you know, like, we're, you know, we appreciate, you know, you doing this and, you know, not hold it against me.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

This is what I keep thinking about as Andrew waits for his hearing, what all of this cost Danny Harris family, too. Stephen Harris didn't just uncover evidence in this case. He reopened the worst tragedy his family had ever suffered, questioning whether he was doing the right thing, risking his mental health, wondering whether his own family would resent him for trying to find the

[Stephen Harris]

truth by saying all this and doing all this. It was me trying to say hey, my dad's life matter. I hope they do understand everything about Andrew and can see the evidence for what it is.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And I hope the judge can see that, too. Because to deny this motion, to deny Andrew his freedom, would also mean Stephen went through all this for nothing. And after everything that's happened, there was no way I was missing this hearing.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Well, so are you going to be at the hearing?

[Flora Hayes]

Yes, ma'. Am. No doubt. Yes, ma'.

[Barry Scheck]

Am.

[Unknown Friend or Colleague]

Then I'll certainly see you on June 29th.

[Flora Hayes]

Most definitely.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

After everything both families have missed, this isn't just a court hearing. It's the final chance to give two families forever bound by this tragedy the justice they deserve. Special thanks to Story editor Nadri Eaton and Type C Studios. Sound design by Redrum Creative editorial assistance and Rough cut production by Nathan Fletcher.