A (1:53)

Okay.

B (1:54)

All right, going in.

A (1:57)

Q didn't give a heads up or call. He's rolling up to this house unannounced, calm as ever, pretending he knows Sarah and betting that John Vance will Believe him.

B (2:09)

Hey, Mr. Vance, you okay? Mr. Vance? Okay, I heard the dog. Could you step out just a second? I don't want to bit by the dog, man. You're looking younger and younger, man.

A (2:19)

Yeah.

B (2:21)

How's Sarah doing, man? Doing good, Doing good.

A (2:24)

Q cuts to the chase and asks about her.

B (2:27)

Okay, so Miley's still with you? She's okay. That's good. Which hospital is Sa. It's rehab across the street. What? I figured she probably was in the rehab. Nothing special. Across the street from Integrous. Right there in Oklahoma City. Oh, it's a rehab hospital. She's going to be there how long?

A (2:49)

Baptist Medical Center. That's the name John gives him. That's where Q heads next. He's footsteps away. Seconds close. But this is where it all stops. Because unfortunately, Q is not able to find her. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't gutted I'd turned my entire investigation towards Sarah Lucas. The idea that if we could just get her to talk, to slip up, to say something about the day Dana Harris was murdered, maybe the story could finally change. And I wasn't the only one.

B (3:32)

The last interaction we had with her, we made it clear that we wanted to talk further with her, and she just was not interested. So, look, if there's a universe where she'll talk to you, then I think you should try to talk to her. Because, you know, I would love to know the answers to a lot of those questions.

A (3:52)

The Innocence Project waited on an answer from the appeal. Andrew's family waited on them. And me, I felt like I was waiting on a miracle, something to break this case open. And somewhere in all of that, something finally did. A single message, one none of us were ready for. I'm Stephanie Tinsley, and this is everything they missed. Episode seven, A Father's Son.

C (4:40)

Okay, you there? I am.

A (4:43)

You're never gonna believe who reached out to me last night over X. This message flips the entire case on its head. Tuesday, September 2nd. Three days before I originally launched episode one of this podcast, I received a message request on X. It read. Hi, Stephanie. I was wondering how many episodes you are going to have for your podcast. And if possible, I would be interested in being on one of them. It was from Stephen Harris, one of Danny Harris's sons.

C (5:20)

Well, I don't want to get too nervous. I know. That's why I was calling. I just wanted you to take a deep breath because, you know, I mean, you're not finished with your theory. I know. I was just saying today on the cup of justice interview how concerned I was about Danny's family.

A (5:41)

I hadn't reached out to any of Danny Harris's family. Not his ex wife, not his son, Chris Harris, the Memphis Sheriff's deputy, or any of his other three sons. Jason Gishner from the Innocence Project asked me not to. He worried how they'd react to anyone trying to reopen their father's case. And with their ties to the MPD and the DA's office, who knew what strings they could pull if they didn't like where this was going? So I held back, but that didn't mean they were off my mind. In fact, I had just been on the podcast cup of justice talking about it. I remember the first time I saw the crime scene photos. I'd never seen crime scene photos before. You know, he had been dead for two months. And then I'm scrolling, and then there it is right in front of me. And I immediately started crying. I didn't know how to feel that. No, it feels sacred, like you're entering this space. And also it does. You're touching evil. In a way, I think that that's something we don't ever really talk about, is an evil act was done, and now we're witnessing it through film. But, you know, just in this very raw. It's not a photo on a TV screen and you're in your living room. It's you literally in this photo. Very difficult. Well, and then you have the responsibility of, like, how do I describe this? Like, this is a. This is a true crime story. The people that are listening want to have a picture of what the crime scene looks like. So how do I describe this without. His family's gonna hear this. I think about this a lot. How do I look at this picture and describe to the listener what this is, but then also, you know, say it in a way that if it was my father, how I'd want it to be said? So when Stephen Harris reached out, I panicked. Looking at his Facebook profile, I could tell right away he was a classic Southern guy. His photos reminded me of every guy I went to high school with. Small town, rough around the edges, loyal to his friends and family. He had photos of his wife and kids dressed up for church, for weddings, for family gatherings. A perfect family of four. And woven through all of it was a quiet allegiance to the Memphis Police Department and military. That didn't surprise me. His father had served. His two brothers worked in law enforcement. So I was preparing to talk to a man who might have his guard up, who might see me as an outsider, someone who'd never understand what his family went through. But I did my best to put all that aside.

C (8:25)

But, you know, I'm not going to go into this with any assumptions. If I had assumptions, what they would be is, he's the meanest brother all the brothers have talked. He's the meanest, and he is the one that's going to let me have it. But I'm not going to assume that to be on the podcast too. Exactly. Assume that he wants to be on the podcast. But also I'm gonna know that I could be being recorded too. Absolutely. I need to assume you're being recorded. Kill him with kindness. What if they, like, try to slap a lawsuit on me to stop it? We're not going down that path right now. You're going to know in 15 minutes what they're doing. I'm going to know in 15 minutes, and it's either going to be a five minute phone call or an hour. It'll be one or the other.

A (9:20)

My heart was pounding. This was one of those moments you can feel you can't undo once it starts. But I picked up the phone anyway and called Stephen Harris. You can't solve every case for your kids, but with Greenlight, they'll have the instincts and the money skills to stay out of trouble. With a Greenlight debit card and money app, parents can monitor spending and teach financial responsibility. It's an easy way to guide kids as they grow from earning allowance and tracking chores to learning how to save and even invest. Start your risk free Greenlight trial today@greenlight.com wondery that's greenlight.com wondery.

B (10:09)

Hello? Stephen.

A (10:10)

Hey, Stephen. It's Stephanie Tinsley.

B (10:12)

Hey, Stephanie. How are you?

A (10:13)

I'm good. How are you?

B (10:15)

I have a day in paradise. Memphis.

A (10:18)

That's right. Given the circumstances, I was surprised how easily we slipped into good ol Tennessee small talk. Like two strangers in line at the grocery, not circling a murder case. But it didn't last long.

B (10:33)

Let me ask you real quick. What turns you onto this? Out of all the things going on in Memphis and because of the Innocence Project, you got to bounce off of.

A (10:44)

Yeah. So that's. That's a good question. So I told him how this started for me. The Innocence Project diving into this case headfirst. And that everything I'd found since then made one thing clear. There's a wrong here that needs to be righted. You know, I have worked every single day for a year on this. I don't think that the MPD ran a thorough investigation. I think they let something slide. And I really think that Sarah needs to be looked at.

B (11:23)

It's crazy. Like, this has never gone away for me because, I mean, I just. It seems like yesterday all this stuff happened. And then the other thing is how you're going to portray my father and all this stuff and that, you know, that's. That was One of my main concerns.

A (11:39)

This was one of my concerns as well. So I appreciated Stephen wanting to talk to bring representation to his dad. And just so we're on the same page, I ask what details he knows about the case. That's when he reveals to me, which surprises me. He's already contacted Jason and the Innocence Project.

B (12:01)

I've read through all the same files you have. I mean, I got everything you have, from crime scene photos to everything. And I've spoken to the same people y' all have personally, and I've talked to people y' all haven't been able to talk to, like the actual investigators, you know, and all that stuff. I don't think you've been able to talk to them, have you?

A (12:19)

No, I haven't. No. No. And I, I, I would like to, but no, I, I haven't.

B (12:24)

Yeah, that wouldn't go well. Just, hey, the thought of, you know, basically, it, I, I think it comes off like you're on their, you know, what they've done and stuff like that, and it doesn't. But I spoke to all them and, you know, because who my brothers are and all that, and, and gotten their take on things. Two of our police officers, one of them was a homicide and was right there with this as it was going down.

A (12:51)

I ask what he's hearing and what he's pieced together.

B (12:55)

I know certain things that implicates Andrew 100%. Something that he said in his statement two times out of the six statements, and he couldn't make that up. But anybody that knew my dad, and if I said that one thing, to be like, well, yeah, that's the only. Only person we know that would be us or my, you know, or my dad. And Andrew said it in a statement.

A (13:19)

What was that?

B (13:20)

You know, when he was getting his first few statements telling about what happened, they kind of changed through the whole course of the tower of the hours he was in there, but that he came out of the bedroom and he started fumbling in his pocket for a pocket knife, and that's when I struck him. And then the second statement, same thing. He was worried he was getting a knife or a pocket knife. And then the third statement, he said, just a knife. And then after that, they. It just disappeared. In his confessions, the reason why that sticks out is in his. My dad's pockets was found chapstick, which he always has. Chapstick, a cough drop and a pocket knife. All three of those rest what he would have in his pockets at all times when he was being evicted. So they the eviction still had to happen after he was found dead. So we had to stand outside his apartment while they put his stuff out on the curb. Even the movers pissed me off. So I just barged my way in. And where his chair was in the den, underneath the chair was a pocket knife. And I grabbed it. Still have it to this day. And if he were to drop a pocket knife from where he was attacked, it could have bounced over right there and landed there perfectly. You wouldn't see it unless you looked underneath the chair.

A (14:44)

I've never heard this story before, but when I go back to check, I do see it mentions of a knife. It's not in Andrew's first signed statement, but in a second unsigned one. When officers asked him to describe what happened in his own words, he says, tammy came to my house and picked me up and asked me to come help her rob her boyfriend. When we got to his apartment, he was in his bedroom. He came out of the bedroom and asked us why we was there. He was plumbing with his pocket. He had a pocket knife. And that's when I struck him in the head with a pipe. By the second statement, some of the details shift, but the knife is still there. So I give it to Stephen. It's worth noting and yeah, it's weird, but according to Andrew, those details were fed to him and there's nothing in the record showing how or by who he. He got them.

B (15:48)

That to me right there, that, that. You can't make that up. There was no way he would just throw that out there. So that has to be. There's got to be truth to that. Now the problem with that is my wife printed out all the stuff. We organized it by dates. I mean, we've done the whole thing and try to find everything to point to Sarah and not to Andrew. And there is stuff that points away from Andrew, but there's still stuff that points to him too. A lot of stuff. And that's the problem. I can't. I want, and I know Sarah. I have no doubt. Me and my brother have always thought that she had more in this than anything else.

A (16:26)

This is an interesting reveal. Not what I expected to hear from him. So I let him keep going.

B (16:35)

That being said, I think the investigators looked at this and now I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I think they looked at this like, for two women to do this to a grown man that was 55 years old, 200 pounds or 180 to 190 pounds, it's pretty tough to do with all the damage that was done to him. I don't think they realized how sick he really was, though, and how weak he was for drinking so much. And that's how this all happened. He was. Started drinking again really bad. And we kind of told him, like, you got to get your stuff together. We're not going to help you this time. Because we just done it so many times, and we just kind of was trying to do tough love on him. He loved. I mean, God, like, me and my brothers were there when we were. His whole life, he was all about us. And, you know, he would die years ago if even if this had happened. But, I mean, it still make everything right, obviously. But it's pretty sad that we. He was there for so long in that apartment before we found him. It just, we were like, we were trying to show him, like, we're not going to bail you out again. You got to get sober. And so I, I, me and my friend were eating lunch down the street from his apartment one day on a Sunday afternoon. I thought, man, it's been a minute. I hadn't heard from my dad. I just, I don't go there checking. I'm out of keys to get in. So we pull up and I went up to the door, and before I got to his door, his truck was there. And in the back of his truck was some stuff like bed frames and some other things. I said, damn, that's weird. How do you get that in the back of his truck by himself? He's too weak. He couldn't look at. He couldn't put that in the back of his truck. I'm sitting thinking, damn, is he moving? I go stick my key in the door, and I just. Something just. I said, nah, I probably just need to stick to the gun and let him do his thing. So I pulled my key out, got back in my truck, called my brother, and was like, you know, dad moving or what's going on? They're like, no. Turns out that was them back in the apartment with Sarah and Tammy. They were over there.

A (18:28)

Oh, you're kidding. After they.

B (18:32)

Yeah.

A (18:34)

Oh, my God. So you think Sarah and Tammy were in his apartment and he had already been killed?

B (18:41)

They've been over there numerous times. Yeah. And I literally had my key in her door, in the doorknob, and something just came over me and said, just don't go in.

A (18:52)

What would have happened if he opened the door? How would the story have played out? I can't even imagine the weight of all these moments. It's staggering. It makes me wonder about the days before Danny's death, the ones we've barely heard about. So I asked Stephen if he had any sense of what his dad was thinking, what he was saying about the woman that was living with him.

B (19:19)

I mean, all this is just so crazy to me. Like here, you know, that woman staying over there. I do believe he was in such bad shape that he reached out to her somehow and she was helping him. She was trying to play wife for a while over there. I don't know if you've seen a picture of Tammy, but holy. That's why we're like. This has always been like, what the. He had been so drunk and so bad off. His mind. His mind had to be pretty much shot from all the drinking he was doing. We. That's the only thing that makes sense to us. But I mean, something happened in that relationship or whatever they had was probably coming to an end. And she knew it. Maybe she. She did have a black eye. That could have happened, in my opinion, from the fight, you know, the attack going on. I don't know. That being said, my one thing is, and this is what I can't get my head around this. If Sarah was over there, you would kind of assume, okay, so if it was Sara and Tammy, then there's no room for Andrew. If it was Andrew and Jamie, there's no room for Sarah. And if they were all three were there, why didn't. When one was telling on Tammy and Tammy was telling on Andrew, why didn't one of them bounce it off and tell on Sarah and like, implicate all three of them? Right, so that's the other thing. Like, you have to assume that, well, there's only been two people over there and that that's my only hang up I can't get my head around.

A (20:39)

I can hear Steven trying to sort through it. The confession, the contradictions, the lies from Tammy and Sarah, the same pieces that point me toward Andrew's innocence, push him the other way. So I try to understand why he's headstrong on the law enforcement narrative that Andrew is the killer.

B (20:59)

And I've always wondered myself, how did Andrew get on the radar when he just came down there on his own free will? First of all, he is somewhat slow, though, for him to do something stupid, you know, that doesn't surprise me to go down there, you know, thinking he's just kind of playing the role right then. And I think, I mean, if you watch these guys work in the first 48 hours, it's identical to what probably went down that night. You know, they're using information from one person to the next, and then they have a case coordinator that's overseeing both of these interrogations and then calls a meeting, and they all come out in the hallway, and then they talk and they say, well, this is what she's saying. You can use this on them and vice versa. But the innocent, the people that are not guilty will weed themselves out very quickly. That's the problem. He never did. He only kept implicating himself more and more and more. The only time they got mad at him and got loud with him is when he would backtrack and start all over again with different stories. And my brother was right there watching this unfold. We were getting live updates as this was going on from his perspective. And he's a amazing investigator, too. I mean, he's done it all.

A (22:10)

Oh, your brother. Your brother was part. Your brother was part of the interrogation.

B (22:15)

Not part of it, but he. He was looking in, watching it unfold. So he was there while they were jumping from room to room. I mean, you know, they brought him in on the case to see what, if anything, they missed. You know, in the apartment, he's the one that found the bloody fingerprint. He actually cut that out of the wall himself.

A (22:38)

It's one thing that Chris Harris monitored interrogations of suspects who might have killed his father. But what crosses the line and what Stephen doesn't realize, he's just revealed, is that Chris went back to his dad's apartment to collect evidence. That's shocking for two reasons. First, how could that ever be considered objective? And second, the official record lists two other officers as the ones who collected that evidence. Chris Harris isn't mentioned anywhere. That's a major red flag to me. There were five bloody fingerprints, and they only collected two the first time. And then I had read, other officers went back and collected three more. So your brother Chris was one that looked at the apartment and found more.

B (23:29)

The one that hit?

A (23:31)

Yeah. Oh, my God. How did he feel when he saw that? Like that they had missed that. Was he pissed?

B (23:40)

No. No, not at all. He's. Like I said, I mean, things are missed. But for what they did in this amount of. Short amount of time on this case with very little to go on on a body to spin there for a minute. I mean, even without the truck, they still would have gotten Tammy because she made all those phone calls from his. From his own cell phone. They would just link them, and they would have found her soon enough. You know, Andrew Put himself in the department on his own free will. By his testimony, he's the one that offer all that up. And then after realizing that it's not what he needed to say, he started backtracking. So I don't know, I think my opinion, I think when Sarah came along, when they interviewed her, they knew she lied a couple times, but then again everyone was in that position and then, then the truth comes out and then they move forward with that. I think they didn't think anything of it until Tammy pleaded guilty to no trial. Turns around the next year, says, oh, it wasn't me, it wasn't him, it was my daughter that did it. He said, I've always had my suspicion about her. I never understood why they didn't charge her for pawning all this stuff. And I think they needed her as a different. I don't know, they believed, they've always believed her. My brother who helped investigate this told me that she was never involved. And I think the cell phone data, them making a phone call to her cell phone right after the murder is what they believe. Says that she was not there when it happened. My biggest problem with this was there's got to be a devil's advocate. I'm not saying it has to be me or you, but I mean there's, you can't just say one sided. Like I know Jason truly says, he truly believes Andrews are guilty. I find that hard to believe if you read everything, because there's, there is stuff that shows otherwise and you know, I, I want the right person in prison too. If I had no problem Andrew sitting in prison and me being wrong about him, I would have more of a problem him being out and me being wrong about him being wrong about him and his guilt. So if somehow we get Sarah and that opens avenues for Jason and then there is more proof there, I'm fine with that. But I mean, I will do what I got to do to keep him there until this other avenue opens up.

A (26:00)

But why kill him? Why? It just seems like Tammy had a, you know, a good thing kind of living there and being his caregiver and, you know, like, why would she want anything?

B (26:14)

Yeah, something happened. I agree. It's totally weird.

A (26:29)

I can hear it. Pain in Steven's voice. The frustration, the grief, the need for something to finally make sense. And I get his conviction against Andrew. When the man sitting in prison confessed to killing your father, that becomes the story you cling to. It's the only version that gives you peace. But underneath it, I can tell he's not sure that maybe he's torn between what he needs to feel and what he suspects might actually be true. So I try to gently circle his thoughts about Andrew, see what he really thinks about the confession.

B (27:11)

I know Tony Armstrong. I've met him hundreds of times. He is very good. I mean, you saw the Lesser street murders. He got the dude to confess.

C (27:19)

Yeah.

B (27:19)

Like, they know how to go in and read a person. They can change their tone, drop on the dime. There was just. There's more than. And you and I don't have the luxury of being there at the time and knowing what those guys were dealing with at the time and what they saw and knew. And I kind of do, because, I mean, my brother was there and we were being told exactly. Every time something was going down, we knew exactly what was happening. I knew when Andrew got taken back to his cell because my brother came home to sleep and, you know, like, I. All that stuff. I was aware of what, you know, what was going on. But now I. I love to go talk to him myself because I think he would not come off sounding the way he sounds. He does with you and everybody else. There's some things, like this whole pocket knife thing. I've loved to ask him why that came up with. I think he would not be able to come up with the way of explaining that. I could probably tell he's lying, but he's gotta. He's gotta admit he was in that apartment because he was.

A (28:16)

He. He.

B (28:17)

And that's the problem.

A (28:18)

He won't admit that because he's told me flat out he's never been to that apartment. And I mean, just to be clear, I'm not with the Innocence Project. And I've said that from the beginning that this is not an ode to the Innocence Project. This is a. Let's get to the truth. I can't speak for Andrew, but what I can tell you is what he told me is that he was never there.

B (28:39)

Have you ever talked to an innocent person in person? That's straight up said, oh, yeah, I did it. I'm here because I need to be. Like, they all say, like, oh, I'm innocent. Don't you know? Like, I didn't do nothing. I mean, I went through thousands and thousands of pages. I mean, I didn't go to work for two weeks. I sat there at the coffee table and just. That's all I did. I couldn't come to a conclusion of how I couldn't get him out of the picture. Let's just say that if you look at everything. It's. I don't like not saying stairs and maul, but, I mean, if I had to choose where to put my. My eggs in which basket? I mean, you had. I mean, there's no way around it. You had to put them in. I mean, people confess to crap all the time, but, man, how many times are they just doing it because they're being bullied?

A (29:31)

No matter how much I try to explain, Stephen stays firm. He still insists Andrew belongs in prison. So I pull the focus back to where we might get somewhere. What does he want to see happen to Sarah Lucas?

B (29:45)

So after all this happened, I was young and I was dumb and started drinking a lot. I was very angry, so I went. I mean, so I would. I tracked her down while she was out. Prostitute one night. And I was standing maybe five feet from her, and I said something to her and told her who I was. And, boy, she about had a stroke and. Yeah, I mean, I was in the hood. Hood at, like, 2 in the morning. And, I mean, I was. I was pretty close to choking her out right then. And then she took off. And next thing you know, she's in Texas. I am. I'm actively trying to reach out and touch Sarah.

A (30:24)

How are you doing that?

B (30:25)

I mean. Oh, everything but showing up to her house, which. That's my next move.

A (30:31)

So I sent an investigator. I know where she is. I sent an investigator up to find her two weeks ago. Duncan.

B (30:37)

She's in Duncan.

A (30:38)

She's in Duncan. She had overdosed. I think she knows the show's coming out. I've reached out to her several times on Facebook. I hesitate. Part of me wants to hold back what we learned and that we're planning to go back to Duncan, but I don't. I tell him everything and wait to see how he reacts.

B (31:00)

I think the only chance we. I have or anybody has of getting her to talk is me. Okay. And the reason why I say that is the way I was gonna go about this was to make it sound like, hey, you helped us out once to put him in prison. I need you to help me out now to keep him from getting out. And I'm gonna get her to. To try to talk to me and give me anything and try to. I'm just gonna try to trap her in some things. I figured if she knew I was, like, on her side trying to keep this guy in prison, she would be more willing to talk. Does that make sense?

A (31:30)

Yeah, you probably could get her to talk. Then you may be the only one that could get her to talk.

B (31:36)

I need to help me figure out how we're gonna fix this.

A (31:39)

Would you be willing to be miked up when you tried to talk to her?

B (31:43)

Oh, you better. Hell, yeah.

A (31:45)

You better believe that you can cuss with me.

B (31:48)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm from Memphis, ladies.

A (31:51)

I grew. Yes, I'm from Tullahoma.

B (31:54)

Yeah, no, I mean, I would. 100. Like, I would. Like I thought this through. I mean, I've. Like. I've almost had my hand on her once. I'm gonna get her again. It's just gonna take time. Now I got a family, so I'm trying to be a little bit smarter, how I go about doing things. I think she is crazy. I think she's vindictive. And I think she would if she thought you were after her. I think she would be domed up to try something, too. I mean, there's no telling. We could walk up to her door and she'd blow her brains out or shoot. This woman is. I mean, she is. I mean, she's the scum of the earth. So I. I totally expect. I mean, I would be expecting anything to go down.

A (32:32)

This isn't what I pictured. Joining forces with the victim's son to finally get answers. But in his own way, he wants the same thing I do. The truth. I'm looking at my calendar now. We could go the week of the 15th. I could get December of September. I'm talking in, like, two weeks.

B (32:55)

And you're very sweet sounding, and I'm. I'm very happy that you're not a total.

A (33:02)

Thank you. Thank you. Because, you know, I've thought about you guys a lot. I really have.

B (33:09)

Get. Let's talk again. Let's figure out a date to go up there. Let's. Let's just meet on those terms. Let's figure out a date. I think sooner the better.

A (33:17)

I hang up the phone, buzzing, relieved. Excited. He might not believe Andrew's innocence, but that didn't matter. For the first time, I had someone on the inside. Someone who wanted to get full justice for Danny Harris. The idea that this could go wrong never crossed my mind. Sure, I'd been cautious at first, but the conversation felt real, unguarded. We laughed. We agreed we wanted the same thing. It felt like the start of something. A partnership. A plan. Stephen and Q and I started mapping things out. Everything was in motion. Of how we'd finally confront Sara Lucas. Until a week later, Steven calls me. I didn't know I had walked straight into a setup. Didn't know I was about to get blindsided.

B (34:16)

So you don't have to worry about talking Sarah anymore because I've reached out and I talked to her. She's only speaking to me. She's not going to talk to you or Jason.

A (34:28)

Foreign. Thank you for listening to everything they missed. Follow me on social media at the Stephanie Tinsley for extended interviews and deeper details into the story. And visit us anytime@everythingtheymiss.com to see photos, videos or leave a voice message for me on our tip line if you think you have information to help this case. Also, don't forget to follow, rate and review this show. It helps more than you know.