Episode 8: Bluffs

Summary

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Everything They Missed

Episode 8: "Bluffs"

Host: Stephanie Tinsley
Date: January 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into a tense new development in the Danny Harris murder case, focusing on covert conversations and shifting allegiances. Host Stephanie Tinsley follows Danny’s son, Stephen Harris, as he orchestrates a risky psychological game to draw out a confession—or at least truth—from Sarah Lucas, a woman entangled in the case. As Tinsley retraces each step, the episode becomes a layered study in trust, manipulation, and the frustrating ambiguity that surrounds the people and motives left in the long wake of Danny Harris’ death.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Stephen’s Contact with Sarah Lucas

• Initial Contact: Stephen Harris reaches out to Sarah Lucas on Facebook, attempting to build a rapport under the guise of needing her help to “keep this dude in jail” (Andrew).

• Quote:

  “I was just trying to make it seem like I need your help... Anything you can tell me that would help me do that, I'd appreciate it... I took the hottest shower I could last night. It was just, bleh.”
  (Stephen Harris, 01:00)

• He describes the manipulative discomfort: he’s “lying to her” and admits to playing a long, patient game, pestering her until she talks.

2. Host’s Doubt and Paranoia

• Trust Issues: Stephanie begins questioning Stephen’s motives as he shares only bits of information, withholding critical proof, and insisting on secrecy—especially hiding things from Jason Gishner and the Innocence Project.

• Quote:

  “But I start to wonder if he's playing a game with me, too, because the recordings of Sarah, he doesn't share them.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 04:20)

• Elizabeth (Stephanie’s confidante) and Stephanie debate whether Stephen is trustworthy or running his own agenda.

3. High-Stakes Face-to-Face Meeting

• The Lunch: Stephanie presses for a meeting in Memphis. The atmosphere is described as tense, with police cars in the lot, and Stephen’s insistence on keeping their meeting secret only increases the suspicion.

• Quote:

  “Stephen made me promise I wouldn't tell the Innocence Project... That secrecy bothered me. It didn't make sense.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 07:20)

• In conversation, Stephen is evasive, cautious about committing to an appearance on the podcast, and focused on retaining control of the narrative.

4. Breakthrough — The Sarah Lucas Tape

• After their meeting, Stephen calls Stephanie and—after a change in tone—finally sends over the much-anticipated recording of his conversation with Sarah Lucas (Timestamp: 11:39).

5. Sarah Lucas’ Recorded Conversation

• Book Deal Bluff: Stephen floats the idea of a book deal to “sweeten” Sarah into going on record, suggesting possible financial incentives if she “helps tell the story.”

• Quote:

  “I mean, $50,000.”
  (Stephen Harris, 12:53)
  “That’s not a bad deal at all. If they want to write a book, let them.”
  (Sarah Lucas, 12:55)

• Sarah expresses deep suspicion, fearing the cops or podcast team are setting her up.

• Manipulation: Stephanie observes that Stephen’s tactics mirror police interrogation techniques: hinting at threats, holding out false incentives, and offering a path to “end the suffering.”

6. Details Emerge About the Harris Family and Sarah

• Volatility and Violence: Sarah’s history of threats and harassment is chronicled, including recent events where her actions led to others fearing for their lives.

• Quote:

  “In 2022, she threatened to kill a man named Eric Landry...By June, Sarah and her husband threaten and harass a man named Billy Davis...Billy is found dead by suicide.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 19:10)

• Shifting Stories: Sarah wavers in her account of what she knew and when about Danny’s death and her mother’s actions. Under questioning, she makes significant but inconsistent admissions.

7. Investigative Frustration and Uncertainty

• Sarah’s Timeline Shifts: Sarah’s statements about when she and her mother met Andrew, and what she knew about the murder, are inconsistent and confusing.

• Quote:

  “Did she really just claim they had never met Andrew before the murder?...They're backtracking.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 27:06)

• Stephen tries to pin down dates for the “book” but also to clarify the murder timeline, further exposing Sarah’s narrative inconsistencies.

8. The Impact on the Host

• Host’s Emotional Toll: The psychological burden of navigating unreliable narrators and potential betrayal is evident. Stephanie vacillates between hope and anxiety, noting her own mounting paranoia about Stephen.
• Quote:

  “Every line pulled me in a different direction. I kept trying to convince myself to trust his actions...But my brain wouldn't stop juggling between he's helping us and he's going to tank this whole thing.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 31:15)

9. Closing Reflections

• After days of silence, Stephen finally resurfaces to tell Sarah:

  “Just called and tell you you were right.”
  (Stephen Harris, 32:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Within moments, Stephen was on the phone speaking with the woman who may have murdered his father.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 00:51)

• “I'm straight up lying to her. I know certain things. That implicates Andrew 100%.”
  (Stephen Harris, 31:02)

• “He convinced Sarah a book deal about his father was in the works, and she'd earned something for sharing her side.”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 12:58)

• “Whose side is he on?”
  (Stephanie Tinsley, 29:29)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:33-01:00: Stephen initiates direct contact with Sarah Lucas
• 03:10-04:20: Stephen describes tactics; Stephanie begins to distrust him
• 07:20: Stephanie describes the tense in-person meeting in Memphis
• 11:39: Stephen sends the Sarah Lucas tape to Stephanie
• 12:53-13:19: Discussion of book deal as an incentive for Sarah
• 19:10-19:42: Sarah’s threatening past and tragic outcomes detailed
• 23:23-24:24: Sarah contradicts her previous statements about knowledge of the murder—host notes the significance
• 27:06-28:33: Sarah and Stephen argue and backtrack over key timeline details
• 31:02-31:09: Stephen’s admission of manipulation and private knowledge
• 32:50: Stephen calls Sarah after a period of absence, leaving listeners on a note of continued ambiguity

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains a tense, investigative tone—alternating between the raw, strategy-laden dialogue of the players (especially Stephen and Sarah), and Stephanie Tinsley’s deeply personal narration that captures doubt, suspicion, and emotional exhaustion. The dialogue is raw and conversational; Tinsley's narration is urgent and self-aware, underlining the thin line between investigator and manipulated participant.

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Final Thoughts

“Bluffs” encapsulates the relentless ambiguity and ethical murk of reinvestigating a cold case: everyone has secrets, and even allies may be playing their own game. As the lines between hunter and hunted, manipulator and manipulated, become more blurred, the episode leaves listeners with more questions than answers and a real sense of the toll such investigations take on those involved.

Transcript

[Stephanie Tinsley]

The following story discusses individuals connected to the case of Danny Harris, except for those previously convicted in this matter. No one mentioned in this series has been officially named a suspect, person of interest, or found guilty of any crime related to his death.

[Stephen Harris]

To one of the accounts, I said, you look just like your mother. I was just trying to get her attention more than anything.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Stephen Harris reached out to Sarah Lucas on Facebook. Just a simple message. You look just like your mother.

[Stephen Harris]

She said, okay, who is this? I said, look at the name. And then she gave me her number.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Within moments, Stephen was on the phone speaking with the woman who may have murdered his father.

[Stephen Harris]

So I was just trying to make it seem like I need your help to try to keep this dude in jail. Anything you could help me, Anything you can tell me that would help me do that, I'd appreciate it. I feel so scummy, too. Just this whole, like, talking nice to this girl. It's just. I mean, I took the hottest shower I could last night. It was just, bleh.

[Sarah Lucas]

Anyway, so when you called her, did you say, this is dancing?

[Stephen Harris]

She knew that I would not consider Sarah like a career mastermind, like a very intelligent criminal whatsoever. I don't even consider somebody that's smart enough to be able to outwit the average person and just talking. I mean, she both face lied to me numerous times last night. I was very nervous about even confronting her about anything. I knew she was just lying to me about. I think the only way this works out. I had to play the long game here with her and just pester her a little bit. Like, we text all she texted me non stop last night after we got off.

[Sarah Lucas]

What is she curious to know?

[Stephen Harris]

She was like, oh, I'm so freaked out about what's going on. This is, you know, it's literally got me in tears. I'm kind of trying to throw her in the fire a little bit. So I'm saying, like, you know, there's all this evidence still left down at the mpd, and there was a certain amount of pieces of evidence, like fingerprints, DNA, stuff like that. This is what I'm playing it as. Like, they're feeling up they got something. And I'm trying to do my best to just make this all go away. You know, he's in prison. I know he's guilty. You know, your mom's dead. Who gives a shit? Like, thanks. And I think I got her all on board that she would pretty much say anything that I asked her to tell me.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm Stephanie Tinsley and this is Everything they missed. Episode eight. Bluffs.

[Stephen Harris]

Right now I got her thinking that they have DNA that they're not sharing. And she's like, are they going to show up to my doorstep? I'm like, who's that? Then it's just like, look, I don't know. I have no idea.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Never in a million years did I think Danny's son would be talking to Sarah Lucas. It's surreal, wild, the kind of twist you'd write into a TV drama because it feels too unbelievable.

[Stephen Harris]

And she's like, are they trying to invest? You know, open invest? I was like, I think, yeah. That's the only reason why I'm talking to you. I don't want this guy getting out. I'd rather know from you what I need to know so I can keep this dude locked up.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

But here's the thing about this breakthrough. The more I sit with it, the more I can't shake the feeling that maybe this is one of those moments that sounds real because someone wants it to. Stephen says he's building rapport to get Sarah talking.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah. Not that I'm worried she would go and get a lawyer. I mean, she ain't got no money. I ain't worried about that.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

He's admittedly playing a game.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm straight up lying to her. So, I mean.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

But I start to wonder if he's playing a game with me, too, because the recordings of Sarah, he doesn't share them.

[Stephen Harris]

Ain't nobody going to go after her and lock her up.

[Sarah Lucas]

I mean, you don't know that.

[Stephen Harris]

Even if she did do the killing and Andrew wasn't there, she goes to prison, that ain't gonna do nothing for Andrew.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I realize Stephen doesn't believe Andrew is innocent, not remotely. He's in this for his own reasons, and he makes that clear. He doesn't support Jason or the Tennessee Innocence Project. And honestly, that was fine. We both wanted Sarah to face justice. But as the days rolled by, I.

[Stephen Harris]

Mean, she just like. I just. So much on me. I'm just crying right now and I'm like, well, there's nothing to cry about.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

One day becomes the next, then the next. Late night calls and breathless updates.

[Stephen Harris]

I think this is just one of those things that, like, the more I talk to her over time, the more I'll get from her. And it'll be pieces at a time, because she ain't offering nothing up.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

He gives me just enough to keep me on the hook. But when I ask for proof, nothing. No trace of the recording, he swears exists. He's Gatekeeping, the whole damn thing.

[Sarah Lucas]

Do you trust him? No, not 100, but there's no reason for me not to. Like, what is there not to trust? Like. Well, no, I mean. Talk to her. No, no, I think he talked to her. I just meant the way that you.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I talk it through with Elizabeth, with my husband spinning on the same question. Do I keep playing along, keep the connection warm, or do I finally just call him out?

[Sarah Lucas]

Well, because my other thought was. I've just been trying to figure out. I've been trying to think of all the different ways, all the different motives that could be just like, you know, the what if. What if Steven is playing Stephanie? What if Stephen has ulterior motive?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Ultimately, I decide I can't just bulldoze my way in. Not yet. If Steven wants to play games, then I have to play, too. So I make a move.

[Sarah Lucas]

So what do you want to do? Do you just want to have lunch?

[Stephen Harris]

Let's just start out. Just. Let's just sit down for. I like to eat. So we eat first, and then we'll just kind of fill each other out, see how we're going.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I push for an in person meeting, just the two of us, face to face. And he agrees. I drive the three hours to Memphis on a Thursday morning and. And pull into a parking lot of a little Tex Mex place. And it's quiet. Too quiet for lunch hour. The moment I park, something in me tightens. Two cop cars sit in the far corner of the lot, engines off, windows dark. I clock them instantly. Stephen has two brothers in the Memphis PD and suddenly my brain is doing exactly what I don't want it to do. Running scenarios. Did he bring them here? Is this some sort of confrontation? There was something else gnawing at me, too, that just doubled down the weight of paranoia to even agree to meet. Steven made me promise I wouldn't tell the Innocence Project, that I couldn't mention it to Jason Gishner. That secrecy bothered me. It didn't make sense. I'm waiting on some egg still. I head inside, not totally sure what I'm walking into.

[Stephen Harris]

Have you ever been to a place like this?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

No, but it smells delicious. Steven came in wearing gym clothes. T shirt, shorts, black cap. I knew his face from Facebook, but it's different meeting someone for real. And when we shook hands. And something in me sharpened a little voice asking, okay, what's your angle here? Do you want to be interviewed for it?

[Stephen Harris]

I'm still faking, but I need to sit down and figure out what I'm saying I don't know how that's going to work out.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

It's tough to hear on the recording. Honestly, most of that file is rough, as I didn't want Stephen to know that I was. But what he said was that he'd been thinking about what he'd say if he came on the podcast officially.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, you know what? I've told you already.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I want to see everything that you. I mean, that's what I. That's where I am in this is. If you think you have things that are making you question, especially Jason, well, you have to.

[Stephen Harris]

I think it's just I don't have.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Some of the things you have. You've sent me things that I don't.

[Sarah Lucas]

Have, I don't have to give you.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I mean, you're pushing back on me.

[Stephen Harris]

I got push back on you.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

We talked for more than two hours, and the whole time, something in me felt off. We weren't breaking new ground. It just felt like he was trying to pull the reins back, trying to assert control over who gets to talk to Jason and who gets to talk to Sarah.

[Stephen Harris]

You got a lot of questions.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Still do I. And when he walked me out to my car, I could tell he was studying me.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm not being sneaky. I know you probably.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

No, I mean, I came into this with zero expectations. He looks like a man weighing his next move. But by then, I only cared about one thing. Actual proof he'd talked to Sarah.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm gonna do your show. I just don't know what I want to say and when we need to do it. I'm hoping that I can get what I want and be done with this stuff soon, but I don't know.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Well, the sooner you're done, the sooner I'm done. Because this is the end. Sarah is the end. Well, it can be over as soon as you want it to be over.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, I. I still got to work on her a little bit more. Cuz what she's saying.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Whatever you want to do.

[Stephen Harris]

She's retracting pretty quickly as she says it.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Sarah Lucas]

I'm not.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm not rushing. But as soon as. As soon as you're done, I'm done.

[Stephen Harris]

You didn't. I mean, like I said, I'll talk.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

The whole day had left me upset, uneasy. But then something shifted. I had barely put Memphis in my rearview mirror, maybe 30 minutes on the road when he called me. And instantly, his tone was different. Talking faster.

[Stephen Harris]

Andrew's not getting out unless I can get this goofball to say she did it. Nobody's gonna reopen this case, you know, it's just not gonna happen. Not without some kind of smoking gun. So we're gonna be right back to where we were, where I just spent weeks of flirting with a ex daughter of a murderer.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm sitting there listening, wondering why he's telling me all of this. What's changed? Then it clicks. He's warming me up. He's preparing me for what's coming next. Mid sentence, my phone buzzes and I glance down. It's the tape of Sarah Lucas. He sent it.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, go ahead and listen to that. Our conversation, and then we'll go from there.

[Sarah Lucas]

Yeah, I've got it on Apple Wallet, but it's not letting me click on it. It's saying, manage card.

[Stephen Harris]

Manage card. Good Lord. Okay.

[Sarah Lucas]

Crazy. I'm like, what is going on?

[Stephen Harris]

Let me think. You know, this day and age 20, 25. You think you just send somebody money and it'd be over with?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

When I heard Sarah's voice, I went numb. It didn't feel real. For a year, she'd been a name in a police report, a voice on that old Innocence Project tape I'd listened to a hundred times just out of reach on Facebook. Book. Suddenly here she was.

[Stephen Harris]

Somebody wants to maybe write this crazy shenanigans that we. That we find ourselves into. Maybe a book, right?

[Sarah Lucas]

That wouldn't be a bad deal.

[Stephen Harris]

I mean, $50,000.

[Sarah Lucas]

Oh, wow.

[Stephen Harris]

What do you think?

[Sarah Lucas]

That's not a bad deal at all. If they want to write a book, let them.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Stephen definitely found the right way in. He convinced Sarah a book deal about his father was in the works, and she'd earned something for sharing her side.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, I mean, his sad part. You'd have to be involved. I mean, you know, maybe you get 20, 30% of that. Maybe. I don't know.

[Sarah Lucas]

Yeah, I mean, I would like that. I need the money. I ain't gonna lie. You don't.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, I mean, we all need. We all need money, But, I mean, is that. I mean, that's a little amount of money for both of us to relive all this garbage? I mean, is that something would.

[Sarah Lucas]

Well, tell them that you got somebody that's willing to do it with you and you want more money. Not gonna lie to you. You got two brothers that are cops.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah, they're not. That's the only problem.

[Sarah Lucas]

Get you to set me up. I thought they were trying to get you to set me up. I'm not gonna lie.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

It's hard to hear. But Sarah says she's skeptical of Stephen, afraid she's being set up, pointing to the fact that two of his brothers are cops. Stephen pushes past that, pointing to a bigger problem, one that should worry both of them. This podcast.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, let's look at this avenue. I mean, I'm not promising anything, but.

[Sarah Lucas]

Right.

[Stephen Harris]

I figured we got two options here. And this is what I've been thinking about this whole day. Today was like, all right, maybe we'll tell our story before these folks tell their story. I don't know how this plays out. Got no. Like, I'm credible, maybe. Maybe. And for all. No makes you look like you're lying, so. But if we come out with our own before this stuff comes out, maybe it doesn't matter anymore and keeps Andrew in jail and we get both things out of it.

[Sarah Lucas]

Right. But the thing is, is they're always going to make it look like I'm lying. The fact that they're making me look like a liar, they're putting me on podcast. The minute I heard that, I cringe and I started crying.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah. How do you like that, by the way? That's kind of up, wasn't it?

[Sarah Lucas]

I mean, I went off on them.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah. No. Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Lucas]

When I heard that, I was like, you know, I kept thinking, how do they put that on there without my.

[Stephen Harris]

You just straight up went ghetto on them.

[Sarah Lucas]

I mean, I did. I got tired of it. They were harassing me.

[Stephen Harris]

If they didn't think you were a crazy killer before, what do you think? Think now.

[Sarah Lucas]

I am now, but I'm not. That's the thing, you know, I'm not.

[Stephen Harris]

And what do you think about this? I mean. Oh, just you and I talking here. If we were to do that, maybe we could accomplish both goals. It's kind of what I'm getting at now. Maybe there is a little bit of upside from doing it, you know, money wise, but if it benefits me and keeps this guy in jail, too. But also it's the truth, too. So, I mean, it's. Can this be used to accomplish both? That's kind of what I'm thinking.

[Sarah Lucas]

But the thing is, what if I don't remember Spot? I mean, I really don't.

[Stephen Harris]

I don't know. I mean, what do you think? The. The book police are going to come after us?

[Sarah Lucas]

No.

[Stephen Harris]

I mean, I mean, it's majority.

[Sarah Lucas]

It's going to be me.

[Stephen Harris]

Majority is going to be me.

[Sarah Lucas]

I don't want to look like a liar, but if they ask me something and I'm like, I Don't remember that.

[Stephen Harris]

You just have to be honest.

[Sarah Lucas]

Do you want to do it?

[Stephen Harris]

I mean, it's. I don't want to sound like I'm doing anything to profit off all this horrible stuff, but, I mean, money's money, right?

[Sarah Lucas]

That's true.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

As I'm listening to them strategize, the irony is impossible to miss. What Steven doesn't know, and what's almost poetic is that he's actually using a variation of the Reid technique. A threat on one side, leniency on the other. And it's working. The conversation shifts to his dad's murder.

[Sarah Lucas]

Heather got to where she was writing my mom letters, and my mom was writing her letters. And it got to the point where every time I looked up, my mom was saying something about me, and Heather was throwing at my face, and I'm like, heather, it didn't happen. She's lying.

[Stephen Harris]

What do you mean?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

A quick reminder. Heather is Sarah's sister.

[Stephen Harris]

What do you mean? Thrown in your. Like, make it funny, like.

[Sarah Lucas]

No, like saying, mom said, you did this by yourself. Okay? I'm not strong enough for all that back then. I killed your dad by myself. And Heather believed it.

[Stephen Harris]

Put him a backup. Whoa. I just. You messed it. You're throwing me off here. Wait a minute. Your. Your. Your mother wrote letters? This is after she was arrested?

[Sarah Lucas]

Yeah.

[Stephen Harris]

So she wrote letters to Heather, your. Your younger sister. That. That she didn't do it, that you. You did all this on your own?

[Sarah Lucas]

And I went in there by myself and did it. She told her.

[Stephen Harris]

What does Heather say?

[Sarah Lucas]

Heather was like, well, you went there and did it by yourself. I'm like, heather, do you really believe that? I'm a weak person. I don't have the strength that God gave a birth. And we would fight over it because Heather.

[Stephen Harris]

Do you believe it?

[Sarah Lucas]

Huh? She believed it for a little while.

[Stephen Harris]

When did she eventually say she didn't believe it? Did she ever apologize?

[Sarah Lucas]

She apologized later in the years and said, I believe you now. I said, I don't know why you didn't believe me to begin with. I said, first off, I couldn't hurt anyone. I wouldn't be. I mean, that's just not me.

[Stephen Harris]

Did you fight a lot?

[Sarah Lucas]

No.

[Stephen Harris]

I mean, you did, too. I know you fought it a lot. You're the bulldog. I can already tell you that.

[Sarah Lucas]

Well, as I got older, I got tired of people running over me, and I run my mouth. But as far as this fighting. No, no. I got tired of people walking on me. So, yeah, I go off. I have A really short views like my dad, I will go off in an instant, but it's usually over the phone or whatever. It's hardly in anybody's face.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Here's just a few times I found that Sarah has gone off. In 2022, she threatened to kill a man named Eric Landry by phone and text. In 2023, she stalked and harassed multiple women. And that's just in March. By June, Sarah and her husband threaten and harass a man named Billy Davis. He's so afraid, he sleeps in his car to hide from them. Four days later, Billy is found dead by suicide.

[Sarah Lucas]

91 1. Where's your emergency? Yes, ma', am. I need an officer and an M1. There was a suicide. There was a suicide. He does came up, he looked at her, he said, sarah, I'm sorry.

[Stephen Harris]

Took a gun and blew his brains out.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

A month after this suicide one that Minnie and Sarah's family hold skepticism around. She goes on to threaten a woman saying, quote, I'm going to bash your teeth down your throat. End quote. And the list keeps going.

[Stephen Harris]

Can I ask you something about your mom? Like back in 2007, were y' all close at all? What was Yalls relationship like?

[Sarah Lucas]

I'd go with her places and things, but my mom lied a lot. And a lot of what she was doing in that truck all the time was going.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm not even talking about that. I'm not even talking about that. I'm just talking about just y' all to how y' all were together, close.

[Sarah Lucas]

We would go out together and do things. She would leave me sitting at the bar. If we went out or anything like that.

[Stephen Harris]

Would you call her a sex addict or. She just wanted them. It was about the money.

[Sarah Lucas]

I think it was maybe a combination of both.

[Stephen Harris]

Okay, Can I ask another question then? I'm just curious as. And you might not even know this, but like, what you saw my dad and your mom together, right? Like, what. What was my dad like towards her?

[Sarah Lucas]

He was nice towards her.

[Stephen Harris]

Like you how you would see them if he were just standing back watching. Like, how was that?

[Sarah Lucas]

You couldn't really tell they were a couple. It's like he was a roommate, basically. I understand.

[Stephen Harris]

Let me explain how weird this is to me. Like, you know, because we have. We had pushed my dad off to the side and I know how bad that sounds, but he was just so bad drinking, he was messing up so bad that we pushed him to the side and said, get your shit straight. We can't keep doing this with you. Right.

[Sarah Lucas]

I'm not trying to break your heart, but he cried about that a lot. He missed you guys.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah, I believe he did.

[Sarah Lucas]

I mean, he talked about his grandkids and things like that. And I said, well, maybe one day they'll come around, you know?

[Stephen Harris]

Well, we were always. Look, when he was sober, for years, things were perfect with him. Right. And then after that, all this stuff happened. And I'm not trying to throw all this shit on you, I just. I mean, you saw my dad the day of, so. I mean, you have intimate knowledge of my dad that I don't have anymore.

[Sarah Lucas]

But he cried a lot because he missed all of the grandkids.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah. The great. You know what's crazy is the day after the funeral, his second set of grandchildren was born.

[Sarah Lucas]

I'm not gonna lie. I wanted to go because I loved your dad, that I'm not going to show up to something that I'm probably going to get my ass.

[Stephen Harris]

Oh, hell no. You wouldn't have made it out of there live.

[Sarah Lucas]

No, I wouldn't have. And I thought about that day. Everybody would have killed me because everybody thought I did something and I didn't. Yeah, because my mom.

[Stephen Harris]

Well, hang on now. Now, the. The day of the funeral was October 31st. That was right before y' all got picked up. So how did you know. You knew he was dead before then, right?

[Sarah Lucas]

Yeah.

[Stephen Harris]

When did you know that, though?

[Sarah Lucas]

I don't remember the day. See, I want to say my mom got picked up on Halloween.

[Stephen Harris]

Yeah, but you knew it before then, though.

[Sarah Lucas]

I didn't know. I didn't know a lot. I mean, I just knew she was coming to my house, sleeping over there, but she was always doing something, always on the go, always taking somebody somewhere, especially Wayne or Andrew or whatever the fuck his name is.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

There's a lot happening here, and it's fascinating. Stephen is walking Sarah through a maze of his own making. Moments earlier, he said, you saw my dad that day. You were there. It's something she never admitted to, yet. She doesn't correct him either. And then here's the bigger tell. We know that when police questioned Sarah on November 1, she claimed she had no idea Danny was dead. But now, as they talk about the funeral, the one that happened the day before, she's saying she knew Danny was dead. So Stephen pushes her further.

[Sarah Lucas]

Yeah.

[Stephen Harris]

So when do you think you knew about this? I'm just. This is between you and I before the 31st.

[Sarah Lucas]

Honest.

[Stephen Harris]

Say again?

[Sarah Lucas]

Now that I think about it, I didn't know till the 31st when they picked My mom up because after they picked her up, they picked me and Miguel. We didn't understand why. Yeah. So I really didn't know about the funeral.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And suddenly she's shifting her story, backtracking. I picture Stephen on the other end of the line, realizing he's catching the woman he believes killed his father in a lie. He could erupt, call her out, let years of anger rush through the phone. But he doesn't. He swallows it, knowing one burst of emotion could shut her down.

[Stephen Harris]

So you think Andrew went back over to that place numerous times?

[Sarah Lucas]

I think he was with her, yeah.

[Stephen Harris]

You think he went back in that apartment, though? Like, after the fact?

[Sarah Lucas]

I mean, I believe he might have.

[Stephen Harris]

If he did, yeah.

[Sarah Lucas]

Even though he had a girlfriend and a child, and they were always bitching about him leaving with her. He was always with her.

[Stephen Harris]

So, Andrew, how long did you know him before y' all moved in?

[Sarah Lucas]

Probably about a month. We were having troubles at the house we were at. There was Sergio, Miguel, me, and a guy named Benito. But we didn't stay there long because, I mean, at that house, it was. Was chaos.

[Stephen Harris]

So before y' all moved in, you knew Andrew, and you knew all them for at least about a month.

[Sarah Lucas]

Andrew was so quiet. We really knew him. We knew Tawana and Snow. They were both loud. They talked. We had met them to my mom, basically.

[Stephen Harris]

How did your mom get get to know them before y' all all moved in?

[Sarah Lucas]

He met Andrew walking down the street. Andrew introduced her to snowing them. She would give them rides.

[Stephen Harris]

But that was before the truck, though, right? This is before she had the debt. My dad's truck? No, he died, so he died August 20th. When did y' all move in?

[Sarah Lucas]

I don't remember. It was probably August or September.

[Stephen Harris]

But she knew. She knew Andrew nan before he was killed, right?

[Sarah Lucas]

I don't know. I don't know. I believe she was going down the road riding, and she picked up Andrew, thinking maybe he was single, and. And then he introduced her to snowing them, and maybe they started something, you know, because she didn't have another vehicle before then.

[Stephen Harris]

You never drove anything before? She had my dad's car, no.

[Sarah Lucas]

She'd get rides everywhere. That's why I say it was after this happened to your dad, because I believe she was going down the road, seeing Andrew, picked him up, they started something.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I hit pause and take in what was just said. She said, after this happened to your dad, Tammy met Andrew.

[Sarah Lucas]

That's why I say it was after this happened to your dad, because I believe she's going down the road seeing Andrew.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Did she really just claim they had never met Andrew before the murder? When I press play again, it's like they both realized the slip because suddenly they're backtracking.

[Stephen Harris]

Help me nail down a time frame, so. Because that's going to be important if we ever do have to write a book. One thing, we can't be guessing on that. But you need to freshen up your memory if we're going to even consider doing that. Because if we don't, have.

[Sarah Lucas]

We moved in. It was probably towards the end of August.

[Stephen Harris]

So he was killed. Look, he was killed on the 20th. Okay, 100. We know that.

[Sarah Lucas]

Let's see.

[Stephen Harris]

Hold on. So let me ask you this. Did you know Andrew before August 20th, before y' all moved in?

[Sarah Lucas]

No.

[Stephen Harris]

You had.

[Sarah Lucas]

You never met him on that again. I didn't meet Andrew till my mom met him. And I believe that was picking him up on the side of the road in the truck. I didn't meet Andrew. Andrew never really talked to me.

[Stephen Harris]

Oh, wait, so she met Andrew after the murder? I think so, but that's not good.

[Sarah Lucas]

I believe she met it. No, wait a minute. See, I don't remember. She probably did know Andrew. That's probably why they were so close. I had just never met him until afterwards. Yeah, that's the thing. It's also confusing to me because, I mean, I don't remember a whole lot.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Sarah walks it back from certainty to I don't know. And I don't recall the same retreat she made at Andrew's trial. Realizing he's not getting anywhere, Steven ends the call.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm still trying to figure out what the old Tennessee Innocence Project folks got going on over there. I'm still working on that, too, so I'll keep you posted on that.

[Sarah Lucas]

Okay. Well, like I said, you can call anytime. I'm usually just here, even in the daytime, you know, I'm after.

[Stephen Harris]

But don't mention anything. What we talked about, once again, to nobody, not even your dad yet. Oh, I don't, you know, and don't share anything that you and I ever speak, you know, talk about to anybody either. This is kind of, you know, I'm giving you a lot. I'm telling you a lot of stuff that I don't tell nobody. And it's probably vice versa, so I appreciate that.

[Sarah Lucas]

Okay, I won't. Well, you have a good night, sweet dreams, and I'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Those lines, it's the same thing Steven asked me. Don't talk to anyone. And this little wave of panic edges in. Whose side is he on?

[Sarah Lucas]

He's fucking with me. Jason want me talking to the family. And now I understand. Is he being honest? Is he really wanting to help? Or is he trying to make sure, you know, what is he trying to do? What are his motives?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

After listening to the Sarah tape, the very first thing I did was call Elizabeth.

[Sarah Lucas]

But I think Steven knows what he's doing. I think maybe his brothers put him up to it. And he was like, yeah, I can get her to talk. But he talked to me the same way he talked to Sarah. And why he doesn't want me to talk to Jason about him, why he's so adamant about me not talking to Jason about him. Well, it'll be interesting to see what happens next. And why he hasn't texted you all day.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Two days went by without a word from Stephen Harris, and I spiraled. Hearing Sarah Lucas again should have energized me. But instead it put this buzzing under my skin. Because Stephen was still talking to her. And all the statements Stephen said before were echoing.

[Stephen Harris]

I'm straight up lying to her. I know certain things. That implicates Andrew 100%.

[Sarah Lucas]

Even if she did do the killing, that ain't gonna do nothing for Andrew.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Promises, but nothing concrete. Every line pulled me in a different direction. I kept trying to convince myself to trust his actions. He was sharing the tapes, being open, looping me in. But my brain wouldn't stop juggling between he's helping us and he's going to tank this whole thing. As I sat in silence, I kept thinking about what this must be like for him. Steven didn't sound like the man I'd come to know. He sounded 22 again, the age he was when his father was murdered. I didn't hear the 40 year old man I'd met for lunch. I pictured a kid on the phone with a woman he believed killed his father. And I was terrified for him. I could hear him drinking on the tape. I could hear the fatigue. And I get it, the weight of it all. The thought of we have one shot, don't blow it, don't let her get away. He was feeling it too. He just wasn't saying it. Two full long ass days went by without a word. I sat in silent agony, convincing myself something had gone wrong. And then Stephen finally called. Late one night, I was sitting on my front porch and the man on the other end of the line was not the same man who'd sent me that tape.

[Sarah Lucas]

What's happening?

[Stephen Harris]

Oh, nothing. Just called and tell you you were right.

[Sarah Lucas]

About what.

[Stephen Harris]

I guess.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Foreign. Thank you for listening to everything they missed. Follow me on social media at the Stephanie Tinsley for extended interviews and deeper details into the story. And visit us [e-mail] to see photos, videos or leave a voice message for me on our tip line if you think you have information to help this case. Also, don't forget to follow, rate and review this show. It helps more than you know.