Podcast Summary

Everything They Missed

Episode: Hope Is a Dangerous Thing: Inside the Tennessee Innocence Project
Host: Stephanie Tinsley
Guest: Jason Gishner, Executive Director and Attorney, Tennessee Innocence Project
Release Date: November 20, 2025

Overview

This episode offers a raw, in-depth conversation between host Stephanie Tinsley and Jason Gishner, the Executive Director of the Tennessee Innocence Project (TIP). They discuss what it takes to fight for the wrongfully convicted in Tennessee, focusing on the project’s process, emotional demands, and the ongoing case of Andrew Hayes. The episode explores the realities of wrongful convictions, the painstaking efforts required to achieve exoneration, and the profound impact of hope—both for clients and those who fight for them.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakes and Emotional Weight of Innocence Work

• Hope as a Double-Edged Sword:

  • "The last thing you want to do is give somebody false hope..." – Jason Gishner (01:39)
    Gishner discusses the risk of instilling hope in incarcerated clients before establishing a real possibility for exoneration, describing the emotional burden and their serious responsibility to avoid misleading prisoners.

• Personal Toll on Advocates:
  Stephanie reflects on her immersion in Andrew's case, sharing how hope can be "dangerous" as it rises and falls with every twist (02:28). She describes the TIP office's unassuming but intense atmosphere, likening the work to Roosevelt's "man in the arena" speech—credit belongs to those who do the hard work, not merely critique.

The Tennessee Innocence Project: Mission and Impact

• Project Origins & Capacity:

  • "The Tennessee Innocence Project started in 2019. Tennessee is one of the last states to actually have a statewide organization doing this work." – Jason Gishner (04:56)
  • Since inception, TIP has freed or exonerated 11 people who've collectively served 303 years for crimes they did not commit (06:18).
  • The process is intensely demanding: Five attorneys manage huge, multi-year cases, fielding about 200 applications a year and typically litigating 12-15 at a time (08:06).

• Exoneration in Context:

  • "On average, it takes 13 to 15 years for an innocent person to get exonerated." – Gishner (06:18)
  • The exonerated are often from the most severe crimes—murders, rapes—while less severe wrongful convictions rarely receive this level of attention.

Case Selection and Investigation Process

• Case Criteria:
  Two questions determine if TIP will take on a client: Do they believe the person is innocent? Is there a viable legal path for exoneration? If either is "no," they cannot proceed (08:06).

• Meticulous Investigation:

  • Initial contact often comes via letters from prisoners. TIP rigorously reviews trial transcripts and public records before ever meeting the client, to preserve objectivity (10:26, 15:04).

  • In Andrew Hayes's case, two conflicting trial narratives existed—objective evidence from phone, cell tower, and bank records ultimately supported the defense’s version, undercutting the prosecution’s case (10:26–13:16).

  • Memorable quote:
    "What you can see is that the objective evidence backs up the defense's version and contradicts the prosecution's version. And that was pretty clear." – Gishner (12:50)

• Challenges in Andrew's Case:

  • Lack of physical or forensic evidence meant the investigation had to rely on data analysis and logical inference (13:31).
  • Data received was disorganized, requiring painstaking assembly to discern its significance.

Relationships and Communication

• Contact with Clients and Families:
  • Contacting Andrew only came after months of research to avoid emotional bias and judge credibility on facts, not feelings (15:04).
  • Met Andrew’s mother, Flora, to understand Andrew’s life before conviction and explain the process—emphasizing the care TIP takes not to foster false hope in families (16:23).

Systemic Failures and Broader Reflections

• Low Rate of Pursuing the “Real Killer”:

  • When an innocent person is exonerated, it’s rare that authorities successfully prosecute the real perpetrator—especially in older cases (17:42).

• Wrongful Convictions and Doubters:

  • "If you do not believe that people are wrongfully convicted, then you have not met someone or heard their story who has been wrongfully convicted." – Gishner (22:04)
  • Wrongful convictions have generational consequences for all involved—not just the convicted but the victims' families and entire communities.

The Work’s Emotional Balance

• Professional Objectivity and Care:
  • "Andrew Hayes doesn't need me to be his friend. Andrew Hayes needs me to be his lawyer." – Gishner (19:01)
  • Gishner details the necessity of balancing emotional distance with empathy and commitment—a tough line all innocence advocates must walk (19:01–21:28).

The Ongoing Fight

• Current Status:
  As of their conversation (recorded November 7th, 2025), Andrew Hayes remained in prison. A crossroad had been reached, with new evidence and mounting hope, but no victories yet (24:03).
  • "It's a lot easier to put an innocent person in prison than it is to get one of them out." – Gishner (24:46)

Organizational Funding and Support

• How TIP Operates Financially:
  • Funding comes exclusively from private donors—individuals, families, and philanthropic organizations (25:03).
  • The easiest way to contribute is through their website: www.tninnocence.org. TIP holds annual events to build community and honor clients, also serving as fundraisers (26:02).

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Hope and Responsibility:

  • "Hope is a dangerous thing. No truer words have ever been spoken." – Stephanie Tinsley (02:28)

• On Systemic Flaws:

  • "This is a system that is run by human beings... That is an imperfect system that is going to get things wrong." – Gishner (22:04)

• On Fighting for Clients:

  • "We get to represent innocent folks and be their voice and stand up and fight for them. And that's, you know, that's really a great privilege." – Gishner (19:01)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:39] - The danger of giving false hope to prisoners
• [04:56] - Gishner's background & beginnings of TIP
• [06:12] - Exoneration statistics and wrongful conviction trends in Tennessee
• [08:06] - How TIP selects and manages cases
• [10:26] - Discovery and investigation into Andrew Hayes’s case
• [13:31] - Challenges due to lack of physical evidence in Andrew's case
• [15:04] - First contact with Andrew Hayes and his mother, Flora
• [17:42] - The rarity of finding and prosecuting the true perpetrator in wrongful conviction cases
• [19:01] - Emotional balance and privilege of innocence work
• [22:04] - Addressing doubters and societal impact of wrongful convictions
• [24:03] - The current crossroads in Andrew's case—no victory yet
• [25:03] - How the Tennessee Innocence Project is funded and how listeners can help

Tone and Language

The conversation is honest, sober, and deeply empathetic, laced with both hope and frustration. Stephanie’s narration is personal and reflective, while Jason’s tone remains pragmatic yet caring, emphasizing humility, responsibility, and the heavy cost—and power—of hope.

Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a heartfelt, meticulous look behind the scenes of innocence work, refusing to sensationalize but instead honoring the emotional and practical realities faced by all involved. The story of Andrew Hayes—and all who fight for him—remains unresolved, with hope both propelling and haunting everyone working to right systemic wrongs.