← Everything They Missed
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- [00:00]
A
Just got a new puppy or kitten.
- [00:02]
B
Congrats.
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A
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- [00:35]
B
I want to tell you about one of my favorite true crime podcasts called True Crime Cast. Hosts John and Jamie take you deep into infamous and forgotten cases one story at a time. Their recent episode on Greg Lance called Tunnel Vision hit so close to home for me. They break down the facts, the theories and the mysteries with respect for the victims and a fresh new perspective. With new episodes multiple times a week. I don't know how they do it, but there's always something new. Produced by Stoveleg Media, True Crime Cast is the show for every true Crime fan. The following story discusses individuals connected to the case of Danny Harris, except for those previously convicted in this matter, no one mentioned in this series has been officially named a suspect, person of interest, or found guilty of any crime related to his death.
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C
The last thing you want to do is give somebody false hope that you don't think you can help. I mean, if you're an innocent person and you're sitting in prison for something you didn't do, and the Tennessee Innocence Project comes to speak to you, it doesn't matter if we say we're just investigating the case, we're just looking into into it. You're creating a sense of hope with that person and you're putting them in a position where in the back of their mind they're thinking something's going to come of this, the truth is going to come out. I'm going to go home one day. And of course that's what we hope is going to happen for people. But we take that obligation pretty seriously not to put that in somebody's head unless we're at the place where we really start to believe that as well. The last thing we want to do is is have someone think that we're able to help them when we can.
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B
Hope is a dangerous thing. No truer words have ever been spoken. It's a truth I've come to live with this year as I'VE followed every twist in Andrew's case, hope rising, then falling. We're not quite back yet from the break. My team and I are still deep in the investigation, still chasing answers. This episode is our second bonus episode, but like the one at the start of the season with my husband Mark, what you're about to hear is also raw and unfiltered. It's a recent conversation with Andrew Hayes's attorney, Jason Gishner, the executive director of the Tennessee Innocence Project. The Tennessee Innocence Project is really the heartbeat of this story and the reason I ever found it in the first place. I still remember walking into their Nashville, Tennessee, office for the first time August 2024. It was small, modest, almost unassuming, but it buzzed with something powerful, a kind of energy that reminds me of the Theodore Roosevelt speech, the man in the arena, which lambasts the critics and claims the credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood. Everyone I met at the Tennessee Innocence Project office was welcoming, kind, but focused. These were lawyers who weren't chasing billable hours. They were chasing freedom. And every piece of paper on their desks, every phone call, every case file represented someone's life. Trying to represent that in a podcast felt like carrying something sacred. I wanted the world to know about this injustice, but I also wanted to tell it in a way that honored the people doing this work. I've met with Jason Gishner several times before the show aired and many times since. Together, we've lived through the chaos of the twists that have unfolded and more so the discoveries you haven't heard yet. They've taken an emotional toll on me, on my team, and I can only imagine the toll it's taken on Jason and his. So now, in this second bonus episode, I'd like to reintroduce Jason Gishner.
- [04:56]
C
I started my career as a public defender. I've always believed in trying to do my part within the criminal legal system to make things better. You know, I have a lot of personal beliefs about how we do things and how we how the system is and how it could be. So it was important for me to, when I came out of law school, to have a job where I felt like I was doing my part and I was trying to make a difference. And then I worked at law firms, and I did that, too, and found meaning in that, in the way that I did it. But I sort of knew I had a shelf life, and when the right opportunity came along, I was going to Want to get back into the public interest space, because I think, frankly, I think that's where I'm the most useful. And the Tennessee Innocence project started in 2019. Tennessee is one of the last states to actually have a statewide organization doing this work. And a couple years later, after the organization had come off the ground and was in a place where it was ready to grow, they were just hiring for a lawyer. And so I came over as the the senior legal counsel and just came over and started working innocence cases. And I'm lucky to get to do it. There are not a lot of lawyers that get to do this with their law degree, and I feel very lucky that this is what I get to do with my law degree.
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B
So what are some of the stats of the Tennessee Innocence Project since you started?
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C
So the project started in 2019. I think it's important to just have some historical background about Tennessee. There have only been 40 exonerations in the history of Tennessee. And since we came along and in the last five years, we've either freed or exonerated 11 people who collectively have served 303 years in prison for crimes they didn't commit. So there's a big wrongful conviction problem that is under resourced in terms of dealing with it. And I think for a lot of reasons, we probably underestimate the amount of innocent people who are sitting in prison for things that they didn't do if they're poor and they can't afford to post their bond and they're going to be sitting in custody for two years before they ever get a trial to prove that they're innocent. A lot of times in those situations, people make the rational decision to plead guilty to something they didn't do because they just want to walk out of jail. And I can't fault people for doing that. I mean, I don't know that I wouldn't do that if faced with that decision. But it also means that it's impossible to know how many innocent people get convicted of stuff they didn't do. The other thing that you need to keep in mind, too, is that exoneration is slow. On average, it takes 13 to 15 years for an innocent person to get exonerated. So what that ends up meaning is that the cases that you hear about where people who are wrongfully convicted and they end up getting overturned are the really serious cases. They're the murder cases, they're the rape cases, they're the aggravated robbery cases. You don't ever hear about somebody who gets exonerated for breaking into a shed.
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B
So even though you kind of. You may have answered this a little bit, I want to go back to it. The Innocence Project cases, how many do you get a year and which ones? And why rise to the top.
- [08:06]
C
So on average, we get about 200 applications a year across Tennessee. And there's different factors that go into which is the next case that we take. We're usually working anywhere from 12 to 15 cases at a time that are in active litigation. We have five attorneys that cover the entire state. So the cases are all enormous and oftentimes take years. And you can only do so many of them at once to be able to work them with the level of professionalism that they need to be worked at to be successful. Essentially, when we're deciding whether we're going to take a case or not, there's two main questions we're trying to answer. Do we believe the person is innocent? And do we believe that there's a legal pathway where we can help them? And if the answer to either one of those questions is no, then we don't take the case. And sometimes that means we have to make hard decisions because you might genuinely believe that somebody is innocent. But if you don't think there's a path where you can help them, we have to make hard decisions because we have limited resources. And if you take any one of these cases, it might mean you're working on that case for years, which, of course, we're happy to do, but only in a circumstance where we believe we can actually help the person.
- [09:18]
A
Just got a new puppy or kitten.
- [09:19]
B
Congrats.
- [09:20]
A
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- [10:10]
B
Tell me when you first heard about Andrew Hayes and what stood out to you. Or if that's not the right question, then tell it to me, how you, how you want to tell it to me about how you discovered Andrew's story, Andrew's case.
- [10:26]
C
I discovered Andrew's case the same way we usually learn about people. Andrew wrote to us asking for help and told us a little bit about his situation. And we started digging into it and, and read the trial transcript and, you know, there are some obvious things about Andrew's case that stand out right away. I mean, it's, it's not typical that you'd see a situation where a mother goes into court and says the person charged with the crime didn't do it. My daughter did it. Particularly in this situation, it stood out because she had nothing to gain by saying that, you know, she had already entered a guilty plea and was serving a life sentence for first degree murder. It's not as if she was cooperating and providing information to the state in order to get a better situation for herself. I mean, she was just doing it for whatever reason she was choosing to do it. And that. That was just crazy to me. So that instantly stood out, right? Like, how does somebody get convicted under those circumstances when something that unusual happens? And that's where things started. And we started digging into it at that point. And at that point, it's just a full on investigation. So we obviously read all of the records, so the trial transcript, the appellate record, everything related to that. And then we start doing public records requests. We get police records, DA records, school records, prison records, the whole thing, and we start piecing it together. And the way that this investigation really started was, you know, we knew what the story was that was told to trial. We knew that the prosecution's version was that Tammy Vance and Andrew Hayes committed this crime. And the defense was that Tammy Vance and Sarah Lucas committed the crime. But what stood out early on is that you essentially had these two competing stories, but there wasn't a lot of objective evidence to support either story that was presented to the jury. So we set out with the idea of, let's see what's out there. Let's see what evidence we can find that supports which side of this is true or not. And at that point, we're conducting an investigation. We haven't reached a conclusion as to Andrew's innocence at this point. All we know is what was presented in the record. And it really was when we dug into the phone records, the cell tower records, the bank records, the pawn shop records, that's when it all starts to come together. When you start to apply those pieces of objective evidence to what was said at trial. What you can see is that the objective evidence backs up the defense's version and contradicts the prosecution's version. And that was pretty clear. And once we put it together, we could see there is objective evidence that tells you which one of these stories is true and which one isn't.
- [13:17]
B
So did anything about Andrew's story feel off or too complicated before you agreed compared to your other clients or other experiences with innocent work?
- [13:31]
C
I wouldn't say that it made it more complicated, but certainly one of the challenges in Andrew's case is that there wasn't a ton of physical evidence for us to work with in terms of forensic testing. Right. I mean, early on in the case, we tried to do fingerprint testing from prints that were lifted from the crime scene, and the quality of the prints wasn't good enough to be able to move on them. We were hoping we might be able to do DNA testing on a substance that we thought was blood in an important part of the crime scene. It turned out it wasn't blood. You know, those didn't overcomplicate the facts of the case or didn't necessarily change the strategy to working the case up. But we were limited in the sense that some cases allow for forensic testing that sometimes can get you to answers quicker, and we didn't have that in this case. So we had to come at it from different angles. The other part that was a little challenging in Andrew's case, at least early on, is that we just had all of this disorganized data, right? We had all of these records, these phone records, these cell tower records, these bank records. And because none of that stuff had been presented to the jury at the trial, when we got it in the file, it was just all the stuff, like, it wasn't organized in a coherent way that explained to you why it mattered or why it was relevant to proving innocence. So it was challenging to figure out what all of that was and to put all of that together to. To understand why it was important to the story.
- [14:56]
B
So how far into the investigation do you go before you actually contact Andrew and say, we're taking you on pretty far?
- [15:05]
C
And there's. That's intentional for really two reasons. You know, number one, when people apply to us and ask for help before we engage in a conversation with them, we want to make sure that we're educated, that we know as much as we can possibly know, so we're able to judge their credibility when we're having that conversation. You know, the people that we sit across the table from 15, 20 years later, after they've been convicted, are different people than they were 20 years earlier. And I don't want to be influenced by whether I like the person or whether I don't like the person. I want to be influenced by what I already know about the evidence in context of what they're telling me happened. So I don't know how many months it was before we went to see Andrew. And we're, you know, we correspond with applicants, just generally letting them know we're looking into your case. We'll be in touch when we have more. And eventually we got to a point where we felt strongly that there was something here. And my recollection is that I just wrote Andrew a letter saying, I'm going to come out and see you. And I went out one day to the prison he's at, which is in north of Memphis, almost on the border of Arkansas. It's a facility called Northwest. And just drove out there and met with him.
- [16:18]
B
I can't even imagine how that was for him. When did you meet Flora, Andrew's mother?
- [16:24]
C
I met her not long after I met with Andrew. We had talked over the phone, but I didn't meet her in person until after I met with Andrew. And the same concerns you have when you're talking to a potential client, they certainly apply to their mom, right? I mean, the last thing you want to do is put a mom in a position where she thinks her son's coming home if you don't feel like you really have the ability to help him. So after we met with Andrew, after we took him on as a client, I went out and met with her at her house in Memphis. And that was for a couple reasons. One, it was to explain what was going on in terms of the process and the case and what we were doing. But also I wanted to meet her. I wanted to learn about who Andrew was before he went to prison. I wanted to learn about their family. That stuff matters.
- [17:11]
B
So one of the most fascinating things about this case, beyond Andrew and his story, was obviously, if the wrong person has been convicted, that means the real killer is still out there. How often does the state then go after? Because you don't have the resources to do that. That's not what the innocence. I mean, you get the person out. So how often do people find and go after the real killer?
- [17:42]
C
There certainly are lots and lots of cases where the wrong person is convicted and the right person is still out in the world. And I would say more often than not, I don't see those Cases re prosecuted for a couple reasons. And you're right in the sense that only the state or the federal government can prosecute people for crimes. You know, an innocence organization can't do that. You know, we don't legally have the ability to prosecute anybody. All we can do is fight for our clients. But I think one of the reasons you often don't see it is because, remember, These cases are 20, 30, 40 years old, and sometimes you're able to prove that a person is innocent, but you still don't necessarily have all of the evidence to prove who did it.
- [18:39]
B
You've touched on this a little bit, but I want to know if you've got. If you want to expound on this anymore after everything you've seen, the system, the stories, the heartbreak, which I know there's a lot of heartbreak in this work. What keeps you going, what keeps your team going, but what personally keeps you going?
- [19:01]
C
You have to keep perspective when you do this work. Right? And first of all, I consider myself very lucky that people who work here consider themselves very lucky that we get to fight for people that are worth fighting for. Right? I mean, we get to represent innocent folks and be their voice and stand up and fight for them. And that's, you know, that's really a great privilege that they trust us to get to do that. So it's meaningful to us that folks trust us and believe that we can do a good job for them. So that's really important. I also think that, as I started to say, you need to have perspective when you do this work. My personal take on this is that I can only do my best for my clients if I can keep balance between the emotional trauma that exists within their case and the work that I need to do on their behalf. Right. Their trauma is not my trauma to take on. And. And they don't need me to. And I can't help them if I do that. You know, they. A lawyer that's representing somebody in this situation needs to be objective, needs to be able to give good, balanced advice, needs to be able to make the right call. And that's not to say we don't. We don't have very strong relationships with our clients and really care about them. Of course we do. But Andrew Hayes doesn't need me to be his friend. Andrew Hayes needs me to be his lawyer. And in order to be his lawyer and to do the best job I can fighting for him, I need to be able to keep a level of objectivity. And that means that all of the hard Emotional stuff, all of the trauma that comes with it. I can't take that on. I can't help him if I'm burdened by that. And I don't mean that to sound like callous or uncaring, because it's not. It's the opposite of that. It. It is about wanting to be able to do the best job I can for him. And the way I can do that is by doing the work. And when it's all said and done and. And hopefully things go well and. And he gets out and he's home with his family, we can have a different relationship at that point. And then that is what happens with a lot of our clients. We stay very close with them, and they're very much like family after their cases are resolved. But he needs me to be his lawyer right now, and he needs me fighting for him. He doesn't need me taking on his burden.
- [21:20]
B
Yeah, that's a great answer and one that I need to learn from. I've done a very poor job compartmentalizing this year.
- [21:29]
C
It's hard because you care about it. Especially, I mean, when you get to know Andrew, when you get to know him as a person. I mean, he's a really good guy. So it's hard not to be sad about the fact that he's sitting in prison for something he didn't do. But if you want to help him, you got to do your job. And you can't do your job if you're overwhelmed by the sadness of it all.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. So if you could speak directly to people who doubt wrongful convictions happen, what would you say?
- [22:05]
C
One thing is. I would say is what I said before is that everybody needs to remember that this isn't a scientific lab that we're in. These aren't mathematical equations. This is a system that is run by human beings, where human beings are offering their opinions, and then we're asking another group of human beings to judge those opinions and decide which side is right and which side is wrong. That is an imperfect system that is going to get things wrong. There are going to be mistakes. There are also going to be bad actors that exist within the system, and they could be on either side. The other thing that I would say is if you do not believe that people are wrongfully convicted, then you have not met someone or heard their story who has been wrongfully convicted. Because the people that walk through the fire of a wrongful conviction and spend decades in prison for something that they didn't do and come out and tell their story and answer every single question that anybody ever wants to ask them, they will make you a believer. If you meet these folks, if you hear them, if you open yourself up to listening to what they have to say, your mind will be changed. And when it does happen, the consequences are generational and the injustice is spread across lots of people, to the victim's family, to the person who's been wrongfully convicted, to their family, to their kids, to their community. When we get these cases wrong, it doesn't impact one person. It impacts so many people over multiple generations.
- [23:43]
B
So at this point, and even at this point, when this bonus episode comes out, we still don't know the outcome. When you and I are talking today, November 7th, on a Friday, late afternoon, we still don't know what's going to happen.
- [24:00]
C
We still heard.
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B
We know the truth.
- [24:03]
C
We don't know the outcome, but we know the truth. I mean, I do think it's important, and, you know, I don't necessarily need to say this, but, like, we haven't won anything yet. Andrew's still in prison. We still got denied a hearing. None of that has changed. So we're at this place now, which in some ways feels like the crossroads, given the new evidence that has come along and given what we're going to do with it. But Andrew Hayes is still sitting in prison for a crime he didn't commit. And there's nothing worth celebrating until we fix that. It's not like these cases are the client and the lawyer against the world, right? I mean, there's an army of people that goes into successfully getting somebody out of prison. Right? It's the legal team, it's the media, it's the family. It's sometimes luck. There's a lot that goes in to getting somebody out. You know, I say it all the time. It's a lot easier to put an innocent person in prison than it is to get one of them out.
- [24:56]
B
So you're fighting for freedom, not profits. How is the Tennessee Innocence Project funded?
- [25:04]
C
We're funded by people who believe in what we do and support us. You know, we. We raise all of our own money. People who want to be part of this fight, want to be part of this movement, want to see people in Tennessee working for innocent folks in prison, trying to bring them home. They financially support us. So sometimes it's individuals, sometimes it's families, sometimes it's family foundations, but it's money we have to raise all on our own. You know, we don't generate revenue from any of these Cases that we work on, you know, in order to pay the legal team, keep the lights on, pay the rent. That all comes through people who support us year after year, who believe in the work and want us to keep doing it.
- [25:44]
B
And so that support comes from a donation button on your website? What other forms? If I was a listener and I was so moved to want to give, how would I do that? How could I give it online? How could I show up in person? How does that work?
- [26:03]
C
The easiest way to donate to the organization is just to go to our website, which is www.tninnocence.org, and we make it quite easy to figure out how you can donate to us. So that's the easiest way to do it. But, you know, we throw events throughout the year. We have an event that happens every December, which hundreds of people come to, which is an evening that is important from a fundraising standpoint, but is also an evening to honor our exonerated community and our clients that are still fighting for their freedom. It's hard to hear those stories and not want to be involved.
- [26:40]
B
I agree. I went last year, and it was one of the most powerful events that I've ever been to. I was shocked how many people were there. I was shocked how many people were there that come year after year after year. And there's always more room for new people to show up. All right, well, I think this covered it for me.
- [26:59]
C
Okay. Hopefully you got what you needed.
- [27:03]
B
And just like that, late on a cold Friday afternoon, my call with Jason Gishner was over. The robust conversation faded, replaced by silence and the echo of everything still unresolved. I walked out of my office, still thinking, what more could be done? The new revelations can't be ignored. And that dangerous hope started washing over me. But I knew as I walked out into another rusty, restless Friday night, Jason Gishner was somewhere, sharpening his blades, gathering his forces, waiting for the right time to strike, waiting for the moment when hope would start being dangerous. Everything they miss will return. We're still deep in the investigation and what we're uncovering, working with Jason's team and everyone involved, it's moving fast. I'm on edge, wanting to share it with you, but reporting something this explosive demands precision and timing. So we'll be back at the top of the year with four final episodes. So make sure you're following the show to hear them the moment they drop. The story isn't finished. Not even close to.
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