← Everything They Missed
Everything They Missed
SPECIAL - Clever Podcast with Amy Devers Presents: Everything They Missed
01:05:15
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- [00:00]
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- [00:55]
Stephanie Tinsley
To tell you about one of my favorite true crime podcasts called True Crime Cast. Hosts John and Jamie take you deep into infamous and forgotten cases one story at a time. Their recent episode on Greg Lance called Tunnel Vision hits so close to home for me. They break down the facts, the theories and the mysteries with respect for the victims and a fresh new perspective. With new episodes multiple times a week. I don't know how they do it, but there's always something new. Produced by Stove Lake Media, True Crime Cast is the show for every true crime fan.
- [01:39]
Narrator/Announcer
This season of clevver is brought to.
- [01:41]
Amy Devers
You by wix studio.
- [01:48]
Stephanie Tinsley
Who cares if I'm afraid? I don't want to walk away and think, what if I would have asked that question? I just want to ask it.
- [01:58]
Amy Devers
Hi everyone, I'm Amy Devers and this is Clever. Today I'm talking to Stephanie Tinsley, creator of the new true crime podcast Everything They Missed. Just wait till you hear her creative journey. It's a powerful tale of reinvention that folds together a love story, a leap of faith, personal terror, media chaos, and a front row seat to one of the most high profile murder trials in recent history. At its core though, this is a story about creativity and courage. The courage to gather up one's own internal resources, fierce determination, sound logic, specialized access, social confidence, unshakable curiosity, and an enormous capacity for care and compassion and put them in service of something bigger. Stephanie is new to podcasting and new to investigative storytelling, but she is not new to true crime. Before all this, she was living in Nashville and working in law, venture capital and private equity until 2022, when her life collided with the Murdoch murder saga. Her husband became a central figure in the trial, including the Netflix series Murdoch A Southern Scandal. And suddenly she found herself navigating personal fear and a relentless media storm in real time. That extreme set of circumstances reshaped everything. With a compelling case and the trust of attorneys and the Tennessee Innocence Project and rare inside access to people and information most of us never glimpse, Stephanie discovered a new sense of agency and a calling. Her approach to true crime is deeply humane. She centers victims and refuses to let them be overshadowed by spectacle. When you listen to everything they missed, you can hear Stephanie building it as it unfolds, episode by episode, and uncovering new evidence in real time in a case that has been shut for years. When the final installments drop in December, I have no doubt it's going to blow up. Here's Stephanie.
- [04:11]
Stephanie Tinsley
I am Stephanie Tinsley. I live in Nashville, Tennessee, and I also split my time between Allendale, South Carolina, which is the low country of South Carolina. And I am an unlikely investigative journalist podcaster. If you would have asked me a year ago, it would have been completely different. But here we are.
- [04:35]
Amy Devers
It's been kind of a dramatic reshaping of your life in so many ways. And it's exactly what I like to talk about on Clever, because it's all about how people came into their creative agency and how they're using it to shape the world, which is what you're doing. And this is such a crystallized moment of your transformation, but also super powerful because you already have the experience and the wisdom that you get to apply towards this with concentrated vigor. But you're a podcaster and an investigative journalist now. So tell me about the show.
- [05:13]
Stephanie Tinsley
So the show is called Everything They Missed, and I have been a true crime junkie for decades. I mean, since the 80s, I would steal true crime books from my aunt when I would stay with her in the summer. And so everything they Missed is a true crime podcast. It's a long narrative now. It's 10 episodes about a brutal murder in Memphis, Tennessee. And I have followed that case for the last I guess it's a year and a half now. But it's a savage murder. It is most likely a wrongful conviction story, and it's a hunt for the real killer. And who knew that I would be hunting killers at my age at this point in my life? But it's a story that if you just want to put on your headphones and work out or you listen to podcasts on Your way to work. And you just want to listen to true crime. It's that it's got all of the elements of true crime that we love. What it's turned into, though, it's really blurred the lines of true crime and this heartfelt story, A ripple effect of what happens when you miss things. And that goes to the title of Everything they missed, what Happens. And the title is meaningful in episodes one through six in one way. But when we come back from our break and air our last four episodes in December, everything they miss takes on a completely different meaning.
- [06:52]
Amy Devers
Oh, my God. That's too tantalizing not to ask about, but I know I have to not spoil anything for the future episodes, but what I think is really gripping about this is it's a closed case. Somebody's convicted, somebody's in jail. For many people, it was wrapped up and a button was put on it. But now, in part to your investigation, it's unfolding in real time with new evidence and new light being shed on the places where things were missed and maybe wrong people went to jail. And I think, first of all, it's a good listen. Second of all, it is ultimately the most powerful thing you can do with your creative agency is to shine a light on injustices in service of justice. And, you know, that can look like a lot of different things in a lot of different industries. The one thing I really, really appreciate about the way you're handling this is the care that comes through for the victims, families, for everyone, actually. You have a pretty impartial and balanced view of the police work and the justice system and everything that goes into it. So this isn't about blanket generalizations, and it's not about placing BL as much as it's about just kind of bringing light to the things that slip through the cracks and cause really big issues. You're really approaching it from a position that's deeply compassionate and very respectful of all the people involved, but also of the nature of how this could have happened. And you take us on a deep dive into the interrogation techniques that the police use, which I also respect from, you know, as a storyteller, as an academic, as a creative, as a maker, I want to learn the nature of how these snafus happen. And it's not satisfying for somebody to just tell me, like, I think this is what happened. It's more satisfying to actually understand the mechanics of what went wrong, and you take us there. And so, anyway, I really appreciate that. That really hooked me on the show.
- [09:10]
Stephanie Tinsley
Well, thank you. And you Know, I think the fact that I'm not a trained journalist or an investigator because I didn't have anything to fall back on, it was just when I was jumping in, it was my natural curiosity to people and really not knowing what I was doing was very beneficial because I just kept following my gut instinct of who do I want to talk to? Why did that not make sense? How do I make that make sense? I got to talk to more people and especially the police interrogation piece, because I halted the production of my show for two months because I wanted to better understand police interrogation techniques and I wanted to understand why people would give a false confession because it made sense to me in how some attorneys had explained it to me. But I wanted to keep going and hear from other people who had, who had given false confessions. I wanted to talk to those people and then I wanted to talk to world renowned experts about police interrogation techniques. And you know, it feeds both things of the true crime story. But also intellectually, I have to understand this to be able to tell this story.
- [10:28]
Amy Devers
Yeah.
- [10:29]
Stephanie Tinsley
And it really helped me that I was just naturally curious. I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew that this had to make it into the story. And really I just started recording everything. Every, every time that I would talk to anybody, I would just start recording, not thinking, oh, this is going to make it into the show, this is going to make it into the podcast. Oh, I'm going to like make some educational show because I didn't want that. In fact, I kind of call this show Hiding the Vegetables and the Brownies because by the time you're done, you do learn a lot of things that you didn't know you were going to. But yes, it just came from a place of. I just need to know more about that, you know, and I think that looking back the last year and a half and even like prior to that, the whole Murdoch stuff, the whole Murdoch tragedy and the trauma that it caused a lot of people around us, the victims around us, is exactly why I'm so compassionate and why this story is what it is. It's just a snapshot of my life right now. And whether it's I'm bringing in the trauma and the tragedy from the Murdoch stuff, or it's the fact that I went through Perian menopause and menopause during this that perhaps gave me some compassion that I had to take time. You know, laying in bed at night when you're breaking out in a sweat and you're wondering what's happened to talk to yourself, okay, what's happening? Why is this happening? And why? And I would get out of interviews sometimes, and, you know, I would have moments where I couldn't think and I couldn't think of the next question. So it's just all of these things that just because you and I are talking and interviewing, it doesn't stop what's happening in our bodies.
- [12:14]
Amy Devers
I know I tell it to stop, but it doesn't work.
- [12:18]
Stephanie Tinsley
So we just have to, you know. And I think that's the beauty now of all of the information that's out. And even this younger generation and our generation that has fought so hard to better understand our body. And since what's happening is you can have these open conversations, and you can bring all of this into everything that's happening in your life. And I think when you hit play and you listen to everything they missed, and you hear me, and you hear that I'm not experienced, but that at the time, by the time the show has ended, it sounds like I am this investigative reporter that has solved whatever, but it's really just a snapshot of my life.
- [12:57]
Amy Devers
Well, there's so much that's surrounding you just prior to you sort of deciding to take on this project. And I think that's a really pivotal picture to paint for the listeners. But can you also kind of take me through the roadmap of from childhood through to before the Murdoch trial, like, let me know what that looks like, and then lead us into that whole period where everything basically changed for you?
- [13:25]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah. So I grew up in a really small town in middle Tennessee called Tullahoma, Tennessee. And there's only about 20,000 people that live there. But we're very close to Nashville. We're about an hour away. So it didn't feel isolating, but it felt like a small, little protected country town. My dad was a lawyer, and my mother was an English teacher. So growing up, I kind of had this idyllic life. I'm still friends with people I went to kindergarten with. You know, it's just one of those little towns. There's somebody that you hear in my show that I went to kindergarten with. I've known her my whole life.
- [14:04]
Amy Devers
I love that.
- [14:05]
Stephanie Tinsley
So some pivotal things that I can recall that I think looking back now, I can point to it and say, gosh, that's where it all began. I remember in sixth grade, if you had good grades, you could take half of your lunch period and volunteer in the library. I remember it vividly. What we would do is just put books away and I remember discovering the biography section and I had never seen a biography. I'd never read a biography before. And I remember my first biography that I read was Clara Barton and she was the founder of the American Red Cross. And she was very young when she went into war. And I remember reading this and just thinking, wow. And like finding things. I think I'm kind of like that, or I'm not like that at all, or where did you grow up? How did you get there? And just kind of thinking all of these things like, how is this some young woman and she's in the middle of battle and she is like. And so I just started reading biography after biography after biography. Now I hated science, I hated math, I hated English, I hated all of it. But I would go right to the biography section and just read as much as I could. And I don't know if it's a small town girl kind of thing. Like, biographies were my opportunity to look into the world and see what was out there. And now that I can recall those days so fondly, that's what has shaped me that very early, shaped me also my dad, even though he was a lawyer, he was very entrepreneurial. So he would start other businesses. He started a bank, American City bank, and was a successful banker for many years. And then in middle school for me, they started the Tullahoma Journal, which was a newspaper.
- [16:09]
Amy Devers
Oh.
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Stephanie Tinsley
And we already had a newspaper in Tullahoma, so I'm so curious why they started another one. But I think my mom, she too just had this lust for literature and she was the editor of the paper. And I just remember it must have published on Tuesdays, Monday nights she would be gone until 3am and I just thought that was so cool because she was, you know, out because normally she was a stay at home mom or she was an English teacher. And that's just kind of the classic thing. But I just remember thinking it was so cool she was coming home at 3am and what was she doing?
- [16:51]
Amy Devers
What a great model for you too. This idea of starting a newspaper and being able to create content that of course your mom felt was meaningful and needed to be out there or else she wouldn't be doing it. And it totally makes sense when you add up the lawyer plus the person who's a journalist or a de facto newspaper editor. That's how you came to be. I mean, no wonder you are where you are right now.
- [17:16]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah, but you know, I didn't embrace it until now. You know, I was a middle child and very rebellious and pushed everything Away.
- [17:29]
Amy Devers
We have to go. I think we have to individuate and go find ourselves before we're able to, like, look at the parts of our parents that we can reclaim and put our own name on. Or else we feel like we don't have any ownership or authorship over that until we've come back to it. If we just accept it without questioning it, then we'll have to do that questioning at some point, and then your life might fall apart. So it's interesting that you see all this now. Those pieces were there. They were floating in your psyche, and you came to them and you put them all together when you were ready for it and when you knew what you wanted to do with it.
- [18:05]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah. Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing. And, you know, I do hate that they've both passed away, but this past year, at different times, I have felt them around me, whether it's encouraging me or telling me to slow down or I can get very impatient. And so I have felt things along the way where it has been like, put your foot on the gas. Okay, let up or keep going or let that go. But I never really explored my creative side, you know, because I think my parents, even though they were creative, I have an older sister, and they never treated us like, you know, we were girls and we could only do certain jobs or certain things. And when I went to college, I remember a couple of things. You know, my dad, he left me my freshman year. That day, he. We loaded all my stuff into my dorm room, and he gave me a hug, and he looked at me and he said, you are never welcome back home. And I thought, wow, like, he knows I'm ready. Like, he knows I don't need. I don't need to fall back on anything. And I didn't take it as, you know, like, some people would think that sounds terrible, but I took it as the biggest compliment that he knew that he needed to say that to me and that he knew I would take it as like, I'm here. I've moved three hours away to this school, and I have to do this now.
- [19:51]
Amy Devers
It's like pushing the bird from the nest. It's like, I trust you to fly now, so you need to trust yourself to fly.
- [19:59]
Stephanie Tinsley
Right?
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Amy Devers
And taking away the option of home, which, if you received it with love, that I'm sure it was sent with love. It wasn't a, I'm gonna abandon you now.
- [20:07]
Stephanie Tinsley
No, I didn't feel abandoned. I felt empowered. I felt very much empowered. And I remember my senior year, I went to the University of Tennessee. I remember my senior year, my dad said, you can go to grad school or you can go to law school, and I'll pay for either one. And so I took the LSAT and I took the gmat and I kind of wanted to be a lawyer, to follow in his footsteps, but I did terrible on the LSAT because I did good on the gmat. And this is where I think I fell into. There was a period in my life, a long period, where I felt like I had become the should woman. I should do this. I should do this. And so I thought, okay, I should go to grad school. And then when I got out of grad school, my dad was very business minded and had suggested Nashville might be a good place for me to land. And so I thought I should move to Nashville. And he had suggested a couple of places that I look for jobs. And again, okay, I should get this job there. But when I was looking for jobs, I had graduated with a business degree, but I just, I felt a little bit nervous because I didn't graduate with. I'm this thing. I'm a teacher, I'm an architect, I'm a lawyer, right? And I fell into sales jobs because when I would read the job description and. Or sit and interview for a job. What do you get to do in sales jobs? You get to go on sales calls, you get to be out of the office, you get to talk to people. And I felt like a caged animal if in a 9 to 5 job. And. But still I had on this hat of. I had. This is what people do. You go to work every day from nine to five. And. And so through these sales jobs, I got to talk to people, I got to go into offices of CEOs, and I'm talking about whatever business I'm representing, but I'm sitting in front of the CEO. And that was exciting for me. But I think the thing that changed my career is when the Entrepreneur center opened in Nashville. And that was my first glimpse into this is creativity and business. So it opened in 2010 in Nashville, and there's Entrepreneur Centers all over the nation, but it's a hub of startup companies.
- [22:42]
Amy Devers
Okay.
- [22:43]
Stephanie Tinsley
And so this was back in, you know, the early 2000s, when there was the big boom of startup companies. And I remember reading an article about a startup company that had just gotten $500,000 from a venture capitalist. And I thought, two things. What's a venture capitalist? And what happens when the $500,000 runs out? And so this is another thing about me that I kind of love. I picked up the phone and just called the CEO, the startup guy. I just call people.
- [23:20]
Amy Devers
That is a real skill. I mean, so you don't have any shyness in your body, then that's helpful.
- [23:27]
Stephanie Tinsley
None. I'll talk to anybody anytime about anything, because everybody's interesting to me, and everybody's normal, and it doesn't matter if it's like the richest person in the world or anybody else. You can talk to anybody. So I picked up the phone, I called this guy who was 24 years old. He had just graduated from Vanderbilt, and he said two things. A venture capitalist is a scary person that gives you money. And when I run out of the $500,000, it's over. I don't have a plan. And since I'm in sales, I was like, well, who's your salesperson? You know, like, you've got this thing that you've invented. How are you going to sell it? Well, I don't know how I'm going to sell it. And I said, why don't you let me sell it?
- [24:14]
Amy Devers
I love this. This is all making sense.
- [24:18]
Stephanie Tinsley
It made sense in my brain. And also I thought, if I could do enough of these, I can quit my stupid job and I could be a sales consultant. I could be some kind of startup consultant. And I talked to him about it, and I understood his product, and I said, give me six months to sell your product for you and try to start making money. And I did, and it worked. And toward the end of that, he was freaked out because now he's having to put PowerPoints together and go back to the venture capitalists. And his PowerPoints were terrible. His pitch was terrible. And I asked if I could come along. And really, I asked to come along because he was a nervous wreck, and I knew he was going to do terrible. And I wanted to keep this job, and I wanted to keep doing it over and over. So I went to the meeting with this scary venture capital guy and, you know, Nick. And so me and Nick go into the meeting, and Nick is a nervous wreck. And he didn't make any kind of small talk or connection or do all the things you're supposed to do to kind of get everybody settled and liking each other. And also at this point, I had studied body language for a very long time because it's really intriguing to me. Not for anything other than if I'm trying to sell you something and you're all closed off like this, or you're like this. I know I'm Doing something wrong. And for your listeners, you don't see it, but I'm touching my face and my neck and.
- [25:51]
Amy Devers
Or folding your arms across your chest.
- [25:53]
Stephanie Tinsley
Okay, yeah, but I've got to get you here and open. And so if you're this where I'm not in a good spot. So I studied body language for a very long time. How to mirror people, how to get you to lean in, how to get you to lean back, how to get you to trust me, me, there's little micro expressions that happen in your eyes that I can, I can read and tell, okay, you're, you're getting what I'm saying. But so the whole body language of this guy, I mean, it's like, poor Nick, oh my God, this is sinking bad. And I just jumped in and we talked and we walked out of there with another million dollars. And I thought, oh, okay, this is something that I can do. And what I was seeing, that I didn't understand before is that now I'm creative. Now I'm in this creative space that I didn't know I was longing for. Because entrepreneurs are creatives, they're inventors and they're all so vulnerable and they all have this thing that they're putting out.
- [26:57]
Amy Devers
Into the world, but it's not even their output. Like they have to design the systems and the culture and everything about how the company runs and how it's sold and build the teams and like that's.
- [27:08]
Stephanie Tinsley
Incredibly creative, incredibly creative. And I was inspired by that. So I saw immediately, okay, this is a niche I can fulfill. I can work with multiple entrepreneurs at the same time that are needing to raise money. And So I spent 10 years raising money for startup companies and my son was very young at the time. I didn't want to work a 9 to 5. I want to do something, do something on my own. And so I thought this is what I can do to pick up my son whenever I feel like picking him up from daycare, because I want to drop him off at whenever and pick them up whenever, but I also need to feed my family. And that's where my consulting company was called Sawyer Fletcher Consulting for a long time and it was raising money for startup companies. And that's what I did and I loved it.
- [28:05]
Narrator/Announcer
Support for Clever comes from Wix Studio.
- [28:08]
Amy Devers
Clients want it all.
- [28:10]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [30:29]
Amy Devers
I love hearing this backstory and so many of the parts of it make so much sense with what you're doing now, especially the sort of willingness to call anyone without any apprehension about taking their time or them being of a stature or status that you shouldn't be reaching out to. The other part of it that's kind of amazing is your attunement to people so that studying of body language. It sounds like you just did it on your Own it wasn't something you studied formally, but that means that your paying such close attention to what's transpiring between you that you're picking up on all of these subtle signs and signals and course correcting on the fly.
- [31:17]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yes, the body language thing, it's so interesting to me, but it was more of, you know, I need to have a good conversation with you. This is how we're gonna get there. And then it just became instinctual, you know. Now looking at all of the interviews I've done for everything they missed, I'm using all of that.
- [31:41]
Amy Devers
Well, it's also a kind of emotional labor because you have to build trust from the get go. Like right off the bat you do.
- [31:47]
Stephanie Tinsley
Because if you don't, it shows. And that kind of segues really well into the Alex Murdaugh time and what I liked and didn't like about journalists. So I had met Mark, my. My husband now Mark Tinsley in 2020. And Mark is a trial lawyer in Allendale, South Carolina. And I met his sister through work in Nashville. And his sister and I became fast friends through work. She's, I mean, just the kind of gal that you want to be friends with. And I was complaining to her at lunch that there were no men to date in Nashville. I dated them all. I dated all the. All the men worth dating in Nashville. None of them worked out. And I didn't realize in her head she was thinking that she was going to introduce me to her brother. So her brother had come through town, Mark had come through town, and she had shown Mark my picture. And one thing led to another, and Mark and I started talking. And within about, I don't know, two weeks, I think we had fallen in love. And very well, very short. After us falling in love, we found out he had stage four cancer.
- [33:02]
Amy Devers
I heard that. That. I mean, talk about change. This is a lot of upheaval. And yet it's like the natural cycle. It's like things are decaying and decomposing at the same time that all this new growth is happening. And it's like probably vary a lot for your system to process. Like, how was your health during that time?
- [33:23]
Stephanie Tinsley
Well, my father had died of cancer. And so when I heard that Mark's diagnosis, I felt.
- [33:31]
Amy Devers
And this is all during the pandemic too.
- [33:33]
Stephanie Tinsley
This is all during the pandemic. Yeah. We met in August of 2020 and he had just started going through some tests that In November of 2020, the doctor had told him, you're going to either have to have surgery for this or do radiation. They give men that choice, and that is an excruciating choice for anybody listening. It's an excruciating choice because there's different outcomes. And so Mark chose to do radiation, which means that he wanted to move to Sarasota, Florida, where there's this. This excellent facility in Sarasota.
- [34:12]
Amy Devers
Okay.
- [34:13]
Stephanie Tinsley
And because it was the pandemic and everything was shut down, I could go anywhere. I've got a son who is a teenager, and he's with his father half the time. And so the time that I wasn't with my son, I would. We would go, and he would get his cancer treatments. But it gave us a lot of perspective on how we wanted to live our lives. It made us slow down. And I never once, though, thought that cancer was going to be his story or our story. I never thought that.
- [34:49]
Amy Devers
Is that an inherently optimistic view? Was the prognosis from the start something that gave you a lot of hope, or was it just something intuitively you just knew there was more that you had to build together?
- [35:02]
Stephanie Tinsley
I think it was intuition. And, you know, Mark is such a strong person that he would go get his radiation treatment. And because he just has this love for life, and also, nobody is going to limit him or his life. He is the one that's in control of his life even when things are out of control. And so I would be there and kind of forget that he had had a cancer treatment because he'd go for radiation every single morning. Then we would go do hot yoga, then we would go take a walk on the beach, go fishing, and I would forget while we were there. It just seemed like we were on this extended honeymoon. So when the treatments were over, he had, you know, obviously.
- [35:50]
Amy Devers
How long was this stretch of time in Sarasota?
- [35:52]
Stephanie Tinsley
About four months.
- [35:54]
Amy Devers
Oh, that's significant.
- [35:56]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah. We were there for four months, and I was there half the time because I would go back and forth.
- [36:00]
Amy Devers
Okay.
- [36:01]
Stephanie Tinsley
But by the time it was over and his numbers were, you know, at zero and he was in remission and yay, everything was looking great. We moved back to our lives. And then, you know, that's when the murders happens. That's when Paul and Maggie Murdaugh were murdered pretty much as soon as we got back.
- [36:24]
Amy Devers
So two years transpired between the boat wreck and the murders. Right. And your husband was already involved in that whole sort because he was the trial lawyer for Mallory Beach's family in a civil case.
- [36:37]
Stephanie Tinsley
Right.
- [36:37]
Amy Devers
So you knew what kind of a person he was. And it sounds to me like, he also exhibited that same strength of character through his cancer treatment. This all must be, like, very reinforcing. This is a new love. I'm conscious of the fact that you just really recently met and you're going through all of these sort of really intense experiences together. This must be kind of galvanizing your relationship at an accelerated pace.
- [37:06]
Stephanie Tinsley
Very much. Very much. But, you know, we had both been through marriages before. We were both in our late 40s at the time. So even though it did feel like we're in this time in our lives that we could focus on each other and things did speed up, we were sure of each other. And when we met, he was deeply involved in Mallory Beach's the lawsuit surrounding the boat crash. And I really admired the way that he treated his clients. I really admired the way that he handled the press when he would, you know, he would talk to me as much as he could about the litigation. And it was just fascinating how he would put legal strategies together. And it was. Everything was just so fascinating to me. So I had really fallen in love with him as a man and a lawyer. And then when the murders hit, it was this chaotic, terrifying time.
- [38:08]
Amy Devers
Oh, describe that for me. I have never been in the middle of that kind of a tornado. What is it like?
- [38:16]
Stephanie Tinsley
So I had never been in anything like it either. It's like walking into a true crime story. I mean, I said earlier, I'm one of the biggest true crime fans out there. I've got a PhD in true crime only because I've listened to every true crime podcast, every Dateline, every 48 hours, anything. And now, because the lawsuit that Mark had filed against Alex Murdaugh was, what we know now, the motives for the murders, Mark was dead center in all of this. And for those that do follow true crime and did follow it, this was an international story. And it was the story that I had started fielding some of Mark's media calls because I failed to mention this when Mark and I got married, because we were living in two separate states. I retired from my job. So here's a time that I've worked since I was 13 years old, and now I'm not working, but it's fine because I've paused my career to be by Mark's side, and there's all sorts of busyness happening. And so that decision was a good one because I wanted to be there for it. So I was fielding Mark's media calls. And so there's two things happening. There's all this media, but at this point, we don't know who killed Paul and Maggie. So I was afraid for Mark's life. You know, we live in this remote area in the low country of South Carolina, and there were times that I wouldn't bring my son down here because I was afraid we didn't know who had killed Paul and Maggie. Are there people just out there killing people associated with the boat crash case? Are they after Mark? So it was very serious. It was a very serious and scary time.
- [40:14]
Amy Devers
Did you have professional security? Did you also have to, like, I don't know, live with security around you?
- [40:21]
Stephanie Tinsley
Well, so the house is secure in that. We've got, you know, all sorts of systems. My husband is an avid hunter, so, you know, I don't know how this sounds, but we had loaded guns all.
- [40:33]
Amy Devers
Over the house staged for protection in case you needed them for sure. That is a high stress way to live.
- [40:40]
Stephanie Tinsley
It is. I'd never been around guns, so there's, you know, a loaded gun in the kitchen, there's a loaded gun in the bedroom, there's a loaded gun in the car.
- [40:48]
Amy Devers
That makes my heart race.
- [40:49]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah.
- [40:50]
Amy Devers
Did you have to learn how to use one?
- [40:51]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah.
- [40:53]
Amy Devers
Wow.
- [40:54]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It was terrifying, to be honest.
- [40:57]
Amy Devers
Yeah.
- [40:58]
Stephanie Tinsley
So that lasted, you know, until they arrested Alex. And then we all breathed a sigh of relief that, you know, it is a terrible tragedy that this man killed his wife and son to hide his financial crimes that my husband was about to expose. But it's a sense of relief that we know who did it now, and so we no longer have to be afraid of what's out there. Like, the boogeyman is caught. So when he was arrested, Netflix was filming a documentary at our house. They. They camped out at our house. My husband was in that documentary, so they camped out at our house for about six months. While they were filming it, they filmed our wedding reception. I mean, they were this. So, like, you just have, like. It was Mark and I met, and then we're, you know, the whole honeymoon phase, the whole phase of us getting to know each other is the Murdoch trial and all of this stuff and Netflix and it's, you know, exciting always seems like a crass word to use because it. It was because of a tragedy. But it was exciting as a true crime fan because now I'm watching how these shows are made not knowing, you know, what? I know now that I would learn that I'm gonna use all this.
- [42:26]
Narrator/Announcer
Right.
- [42:27]
Amy Devers
But it's still fascinating when you get inside a machine and see how the mechanics of storytelling work and, like, what the Roles are and who does what and what kind of equipment they bring and how they stitch the story together. And that must have been kind of. Yeah. Amazing to get an inside, up close view of all of that in the making.
- [42:48]
Stephanie Tinsley
Right. I didn't know what a producer was. I didn't know what directors do. I didn't know how you cut something down, you know, Dateline, you have to cut down to 42 minutes. I didn't know what B roll was, you know, when you watch. I didn't know any of this. And so seeing all of that, and I would listen in on interviews that my husband would give and there were things I would think I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't say that I would have been more prepared than that, or I wouldn't have asked a victim that. Or you're way too formal, or you're, you know, just little things. Or I would see really great ones and think, ooh, that's so good. Or, oh, they're so engaged. Or, you know, and just thank God. And then that's when I think the seed was planted. Like, wonder if I could do that. And so when it was all said and done and the dust was settled and here it is, the, you know, the murders are over, the trials over, and I spent about six months still, like, have walked away from my job, retired from my job and just started knocking around, well, what am I going to do now? Because it's wonderful to be able to be a wife and be a mom, but I need more. I need a purpose outside of my family to keep me engaged. And so what can I do that is all encompassing?
- [44:21]
Amy Devers
Well, you chose something very all encompassing, that's for sure.
- [44:26]
Stephanie Tinsley
I didn't mean it to be this.
- [44:28]
Amy Devers
Encompassing, but I also really appreciate, especially having the presence of mind and presence of character and confidence to say, maybe I could do that, and then plunging yourself into it. Because when a story found you, and I want to hear that story, but when it did, you went headfirst into it and you have been for a year and a half, which I'm sure has been a steep learning curve.
- [44:56]
Stephanie Tinsley
Oh, my gosh. Yes.
- [44:57]
Amy Devers
But I can hear in the show that you're on a path that's really meaningful to you.
- [45:04]
Stephanie Tinsley
And, you know, I think it goes back to just the naivety of not knowing what I was getting into.
- [45:10]
Amy Devers
Yeah, naivety gets people into a lot of good stuff, honestly.
- [45:14]
Stephanie Tinsley
I think so, too. I think so, too. I think beginner's luck is a real phenomenon, and I think it's the new Universe saying, keep going. Like, I know you don't know what you're doing, but here's some.
- [45:25]
Amy Devers
I'm gonna give you a little win for encouragement. Yeah, right.
- [45:28]
Stephanie Tinsley
Next time, it's not gonna be so easy. Not that this was easy, but I also went into it with, if I do want to do a true crime podcast and it doesn't work, who's going to know? Who's going to know? No one knew what I was doing. My husband didn't even know what I was doing. For months, I had told my girlfriends because I wanted to say it out loud, because I thought, if I say it out loud, then it's going to become more real. But when the show was released September 5th, almost everyone didn't know I had done a podcast. I started it that way because then I could create what I wanted to create, and I wouldn't have anybody tell me I couldn't do it because I'd never done it before. I didn't want anybody telling me. And I also had some worries because Murdoch had been so big, so many documentaries had come out about the Murdaugh trials, so many books, so many podcasts, so many things. I was a little bit concerned that if I put it out there, oh, it's the wife of the wife of, you know, and I didn't want any of that. And so I intentionally didn't want to do a story about Murdoch. I wanted to do a story in my home state of Tennessee. I wanted it all to be mine, meaning I wanted to do it my way, however that played out. And it's really why I chose this story in Memphis.
- [47:10]
Amy Devers
I'm conscious of and totally aware of the, oh, it's the wife of kind of scenario that we as a culture and as women have to plow our ways through. I think you handled the wife of thing really, really excellently because this is clearly your project. But sometimes we overcompensate by actually excluding the husband so that it can be so clear that we're doing this on our own. But that's actually a really valuable source of. Of insight and expertise that you have access to. So that wouldn't be doing the story, the, you know, service if you just ignored that.
- [47:57]
Stephanie Tinsley
Right.
- [47:58]
Amy Devers
And there's also something really cool about kind of being the witness to how you two operate together. The way that you have your dynamic together is really nice. It's really fascinating, and I enjoy that.
- [48:11]
Stephanie Tinsley
Yeah. Yeah. And I wanted to bring that out because it is. To me, it is so cool. And I do love our marriage. And I do love how we interact with each other. And because the story was so encompassing, I mean, everyone from my husband to my son to my best friends, those were the core of who knew what I was doing. And, and unfortunately for them, it was all I was talking about. It was all I was talking about. And when I would read trial transcripts or whatever I was reading and I would ask Mark questions, it started off very organically because he would start giving me answers and I would just start hitting record on my notes so I could go back later and listen. This was happening weekly. And when I got to writing the show, I would remember, oh, Mark said that so well. And I would go back and read it and I would listen to it it and I thought, I'm just gonna put it in, you know, because it just, there's no reason for me to over narrate that. I'm just gonna put that in. Same thing with Elizabeth. She's my friend since childhood. She was a bystander in all of this. And because I would interview some of these people at the very beginning and think, God, this is so cool, I just talked to Dr. Richard Offshi, who's the world renowned expert in false confessions, and I would send her the interview just like, look what I did, you know, and she would listen to it and then she would ask to hear the next one and hear the next one. And she's a lawyer and she's also a true crime fan. And so she would just start listening to all of these interviews just because we thought it was cool and interesting. And then she would give tidbits and advice and then things would come up and I started hitting record with her too. Same reason for Mark. And then I would go back and listen and I would think, this is the story I would want to listen to. This is the behind the scenes stuff that I would want to listen to. At the top of episode two, you hear me riding around the crime scene with Elizabeth and my friend Christy, who I've also known so since childhood. And at that moment in time, I had just decided I was going to do the story of Andrew Hayes. And it was important to me to go to Cordova, Tennessee, which is outside of Memphis, where Danny Harris was murdered. And I wanted to see the crime scene. And I was there on a girls weekend in Memphis and just said, hey girls, I'm going to go drive by this crime scene. I'm going to go drive by some of these neighborhoods. And they wanted to go, okay, well, let's go. And so I just Hit record on my phone. And that's what you hear at the top of episode two. So none of it was planned, but it all just kind of made it in. And I agree with you. I like that, because I don't want to be, oh, the wife of just, you know, tried to take advantage of the Murdoch fame and do her thing. No. But I also have these great resources in my life, and they're gonna make it into the show.
- [51:29]
Amy Devers
There's something really, I think, compelling about those clips that you put in the show, too, because they are clearly unplanned. So what it feels like is a kind of these threads that you then took later and wove them into this quilt that you're making. You're not positioning yourself as the expert. Instead, you're in a really authentic way, positioning yourself as somebody who's doing this for the first time. But when we see the mechanics of how you're doing it, we see that there's a lot of care. And that care buys so much for the listener in terms of trusting you and your motives. And so I thank you for that and for being willing to kind of expose these moments that everybody felt were private when you recorded them. I don't think you're exposing details that you don't mean to expose necessarily, but it is. There is an intimacy to those moments.
- [52:28]
Stephanie Tinsley
There is, there is. And, you know, my favorite podcast serial is, you know, one of the originals, and S Town is one of the originals. And you. It feels like you are getting a peek inside, that you are overhearing conversations. But, you know, I think there's a lot of intensity that is woven throughout the show as well, and things that I learned, and maybe it's just a time in my life where I'm not going to back down, and I am going to push for answers. And I did all of the investigation independently. There's neighborhoods now that I look back and think that was probably pretty dangerous, that I put myself in those situations. But I wanted to get answers, and I wanted to talk to those people, and I felt like I needed to talk to them where they were. There's lawyers, and there's people in law enforcement that I go toe to toe with. And you'll hear that more in episodes 7 through 10, where I'm very much challenging the DA of Memphis. I'm very much challenging the Justice Review Unit in Memphis, and I'm not backing down. And that is something that probably in my 20s and 30s, I wouldn't have done. But I think because I went through the Murdoch stuff. And I've seen my husband go toe to toe, and I don't want to walk away and think, what if I would have asked that question? I just want to ask it. That is what has really put the meat in this story that has shined a light on things that a lot of people would have rather kept buried about this story.
- [54:09]
Amy Devers
Wow. Well, that is a very compelling teaser for the next four episodes. We have to wait till December for those.
- [54:16]
Stephanie Tinsley
We have to wait till December for those. You know, I will give a couple of insights into what's happening. The reason why we're taking a break right now is the story's happening in real time. So we released the first episode on September 5th. And even right now, if you ask me what episode 10 is about, I can't even tell you because we're waiting on court dates and we're waiting on something else pretty huge to happen. So I've written episode seven and eight, and we're into nine, but I'm not sure what 10. But what happened. Two nights before the first episode was released, I get a message on X. And the message changed the whole trajectory of the story. This person was someone I never thought would have reached out to me. And at the top of episode seven, you'll hear my call with my friend Elizabeth. And I am. Freaking out is probably the right word to use. I'd like to be a little bit more sophisticated sounding than that, but I received this message, and it said, stephanie, I would like to know how many episodes you're doing, and I'd like to be on one of them. And I knew that this person most likely would have information, and I knew this person had never been talked to before. And so what you'll hear in episodes 7 through 10 is a completely different story than what I thought the story was gonna be.
- [56:00]
Amy Devers
Oh, wow.
- [56:01]
Stephanie Tinsley
Completely different.
- [56:03]
Amy Devers
That is very exciting. Of course, I'll be tuning in. But it's also kind of just a powerful picture of what happens when you start turning over rocks and kicking hornets nests. And, like, if somebody feels they can come forward with information that's been buried for a long time, that's pretty amazing.
- [56:21]
Stephanie Tinsley
It is. And it has changed everything. You'll die. You'll die.
- [56:29]
Amy Devers
I want you to tell me, but not when we're recording.
- [56:31]
Stephanie Tinsley
I know. Yeah. Oh, you'll die. It's even more than what you think. It's even more than what you think, really. Oh, God, it's jaw dropping. Any listeners that don't believe in things like divine intervention, it only happens because of the show. But I don't feel like, oh, I did this, you know, but so many things had to line up for all of this that there has to be something I don't know out there that allowed all of this to come together because it's so amazing.
- [57:05]
Amy Devers
Tell me if this feels accurate to you. It feels like the truth is this kind of effervescent gas or something that needs to seek light and air, and if people try to bury it, it can only stay buried for so long. And as soon as you sort of disturb the earth enough for this gas to escape, it needs to come forward. And so, like, truth isn't a thing that wants to stay buried.
- [57:32]
Stephanie Tinsley
I love that. When you were saying that, I was thinking that needs to be on the show. I love that I can visualize that. And that's what this feels like. Wow.
- [57:46]
Amy Devers
Wow. I just got goosebumps. I can't wait. So you've given us really compelling teasers about the next four episodes that will come out in December. What about, have you thought beyond the show?
- [57:57]
Stephanie Tinsley
I have. You know, I want to keep doing these. Nothing is going to compare to this one and I don't want it to. And I have people on the show that have said, well, you'll go off and do other things and we'll just be left back. And there's no way, I mean, there's. There's no way the people that I have encountered in, in this experience I'm ever going to leave back. So that's not ever going to happen. And I do want to put more stories like this out there. So I, I hope another case finds me when the time is right. I would like to see some of these on the screen. And there have been people that have approached me recently. I've let a few production companies know, I've made them sign NDAs, but know what's happening in the ending. And I would love to see it on Netflix or on the screen because the people in this story deserve to be seen in that light. And I think listeners like to see places and people and all of that. So that would be a great experience. If the only thing that does happen is I just keep doing more and more long form podcasts, then I would love to do that. I would love to keep doing that. So I've just got to put that out in the world to figure out how to make that happen. So because I am a team of one, I mean, I have teamed up with Tenderfoot, who they are the masters of true crime. They're one of the biggest networks out there, But I teamed up in a way where I still own the show. They do the beautiful sound design, and they do the editing, and that's why the show sounds so great and so professional.
- [59:51]
Amy Devers
Oh, that's fantastic. Yes.
- [59:53]
Stephanie Tinsley
So I wanted that experience for the listeners, because any type of show that I listen to, I want to be immersed in it. And when people a lot of times listen to the show and their response is, it was so good. It sounded so good because of the sound design, because it's a great story. But you may or may not, and sometimes it's the best when you don't hear the music that's ushering you. You don't hear, you know, but, like, you feel it.
- [60:27]
Amy Devers
Yeah. It's like good sound design is like the breeze that helps you, like, sort of understand why the leaves are all blowing in that direction. It's like it's such a environmental part of the story that it helps carry it in some places and move it along. It's so important. But I agree with you. It's also. It's not about the sound necessarily standing out. It makes the words. It makes the story stand out.
- [60:54]
Stephanie Tinsley
Right, right. And I'm in music city, so, you know, Nashville has got so many great writers and musicians, and so Brazen Cyrus, who's Miley Cyrus younger brother, composed original music for the show.
- [61:09]
Amy Devers
Oh, how nice.
- [61:10]
Stephanie Tinsley
And he and I worked together for about six months, talking about the show, talking about the vibe of the show, talking about the darkness of the show, talking about the hope of the show. And so when you listen to it, that's a lot of Brazen's very thoughtful, originally composed music that he put on the show. And that was important to me too, because I wanted the show to be original and feel like that.
- [61:39]
Amy Devers
Oh, I love that. I'm gonna listen with fresh ears knowing that that's. Yeah, that's an important piece of it.
- [61:46]
Stephanie Tinsley
Even the theme song at the very beginning, it's just a few seconds, but I think it really captures me and Nashville and Memphis and in the country in kind of bluesy way to it. But we went through a lot of iterations to get there, so it's a very thoughtful, full show.
- [62:05]
Amy Devers
Yes, that is clear. Are you enjoying the collaborations with people in other aspects of creativity or the industry? It's really fun, right?
- [62:14]
Stephanie Tinsley
It's so fun. It's so fun. So fun. And I've never been in the music industry before, and so I would just eat up every time I would have a meeting with Brazen. He's this young guy, but he's brilliant and I would love it. And then when I would be in meetings with Donald Albright, he's the CEO of Tenderfoot, I knew that this story was so big. I wanted to partner with somebody that would edit it in such a way. And he would just be talking and I was just like, oh my God. You know, and then you have to put together teams of, like, attorneys to read the scripts for defamation or anything like that. And again, anytime my attorney would speak, it was just like, oh, my God. That's so interesting. And all of it is just so cool and interesting.
- [63:01]
Amy Devers
I am so excited for you that you found something that gives you tremendous meaning, that you are growing and learning and channeling all of your energy and effort towards something that feels like a valuable contribution, but also feels like it's giving you something back in terms of your own growth and creative empowerment. And I feel like whatever comes next, this is going to be a really, really fruitful stage of your life because you are giving such good energy, Stephanie, so.
- [63:33]
Stephanie Tinsley
Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, same to you. Same to you. I can see why so many people enjoy listening to you. So I'm so glad we met. I'm so glad we're friends now.
- [63:47]
Amy Devers
Same.
- [63:47]
Stephanie Tinsley
Thank you so much for having me and putting it out there.
- [63:53]
Amy Devers
Hey, thanks so much for listening. For a transcript of this episode and more about Stephanie and everything they missed, including links and images, head to our website, cleverpodcast.com. while you're there, sign up for our free substack newsletter, which includes news, announcements and a bonus Q and A from our guests. We'd love to hear from you on LinkedIn and Instagram. Instagram, you can find us lever podcast and you can find me amydevvers. If you listen on Spotify, you can comment on the episode there. We'd love to hear what you think and if you like Clevver, there are a number of ways you can support us. Share Clevver with your friends, leave us a five star rating or a kind review, support our sponsors and hit the follow or subscribe button in your podcast app so that our new episodes will turn up in your feed. Clap the Clever is hosted and produced by me, Amy Devers with editing by Mark Zurowinski, production assistants from Alana Nevins and Anoushka Stefan, and music by L1011.
- [64:56]
Stephanie Tinsley
This is another thing about me that I kind of love. I picked up the phone and just called the CEO, the startup guy. I just call people.
- [65:07]
Narrator/Announcer
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Amy Devers
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Narrator/Announcer
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