The Years

Summary

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Everything They Missed

Season 1, Episode 6: "The Years"

Host: Stephanie Tinsley
Date: October 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, host Stephanie Tinsley takes listeners deep inside the family at the center of the Danny Harris murder case and the struggle to exonerate Andrew “Wayne” Hayes—convicted, despite strong doubts about his guilt. The episode blends legal updates, powerful family testimony, and a riveting search for crucial witnesses, with Stephanie and her team pushing for answers that could change everything.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Humanizing the miscarriage of justice: By introducing Flora Hayes (Andrew's mother), Andrew’s son Tamarion, and the rest of the family, Stephanie seeks to show the lasting, generational pain left by a wrongful conviction.
• Legal dead ends and hope: The episode details the latest failed legal appeal and the high barriers to proving innocence post-conviction.
• Relentless investigation: Stephanie and a private investigator pursue new witnesses, especially the elusive Sarah Lucas, whose confession could be a game-changer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Appeal Denied – The Legal Wall

• Recap of Andrew's Legal Hurdles

  • Jason Gishner, Andrew's defense attorney, recounts submitting the PCECN packet to court—with all the “new” evidence—only to have Judge Poliskane deny a hearing outright on November 15, 2024.
    • “She never even let us come to court and talk about it.” (Jason Gishner, 02:11)
    • “This is the first time in Shelby County a judge has ever not let us have a hearing.” (Jason Gishner, 02:30)

• Why Was It Denied?

  • Legal analyst Noah Pines explains: despite new affidavits and family claims, the court found the “new” evidence simply cumulative—not enough to meet the strict standard for post-conviction relief.
    • “The Innocence Project would have to show clear and convincing evidence that Andrew's innocent. And that's a hard burden. Not just that he could be innocent...” (Noah Pines, 22:03)

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2. Flora Hayes & Family: Bearing the Weight

• A Family’s Story

  • Stephanie visits Flora’s home in Frazier, Memphis. The house is full, the air heavy—Flora commands the family’s attention as she recounts Andrew’s early life and the moment he was arrested.

• Flora’s Perspective

  • Flora describes Andrew’s struggles with a learning disability and how he was pressured into confessing:
    • “He just said some stuff to satisfy them.” (Flora Hayes, 09:16)
  • The pain of hearing the guilty verdict:
    • “That knocked soul out of me. My whole world just dropped.” (Flora Hayes, 10:21)
  • Desperation for the real killer to come forward:
    • “Just turn yourself in. Cuz I miss. I miss my son. I just turned 59. My son been gone. Took 18 years.” (Flora Hayes, 11:03)

• Generational Pain: Tamarion’s Voice

  • Andrew’s son, Tamarion, now almost 19, breaks down:
    • “I haven't had a real father figure... My mom, she tried, but she can't do it all. I never seen him. I don't know him. I never seen him.” (Tamarion Hayes, 14:27)
    • On the domino effect: “If my dad was here, I wouldn't be doing just the stuff I'm doing now… It'd be different.” (Tamarion Hayes, 16:36)

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3. Back to Court—A Final Shot at Appeal

• Inside the Tennessee State Court of Appeals
  • Jason Gishner pleads to the panel for a hearing, citing multiple new witnesses who heard Sarah Lucas confess.
    • “We are not asking you to turn him loose or overturn this conviction. All we're saying is that there is a mountain of evidence in this case that the wrong person is in prison and he can't even get a day in court.” (Jason Gishner, 27:11)
  • Judges appear unswayed, repeatedly questioning what is truly new.
    • “This is all basically cumulative of what mother testified to at trial.” (Judge, 26:15)
  • Afterward, the Hayes family and Stephanie are left devastated, feeling the system's inertia.
    • “Unfortunately, no one said it outright, but I could feel it. We might have just seen the moment that decides everything.” (Stephanie Tinsley, 29:38)

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4. Relentless Investigation – Private Eye Q Joins the Case

• Digging Up New Leads

  • PI “Q” is hired to find and possibly coax a confession from Sarah Lucas, believed to be the real killer.
    • “If Sarah's the interest in missing peace...I'm gonna find her. I'm gonna get her.” (Q, 35:46)
  • The PI scours addresses, interviews Gary Rydell’s sister, and navigates a tangled web of family and friends in Duncan, Oklahoma.

• Sarah Lucas: A Fading Chance

  • Reports emerge that Sarah is ill and hospitalized—possibly near death and potentially ready for a confession.
    • “What if Sarah is so bad off she wants to make a deathbed confession? The window is closing.” (Stephanie Tinsley, 38:08)

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5. Cliffhanger Ending & Teasers for What’s Next

• A Pause, But Not the End

  • The episode concludes with the search for Sarah coming to a critical point. Stephanie teases upcoming major developments:
    • “What I can say for certain is that what's coming next might just change everything.” (Stephanie Tinsley, 39:17)

• A Shocking Message

  • Just as hope seems lost, Stephanie hints at a message that shakes the case:
    • “This message flips the entire case on its head. I can't even believe this is happening.” (Stephanie Tinsley, 41:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You really hurt this family… Just turn yourself in. Cuz I miss my son.... My son’s been gone 18 years.”
  — Flora Hayes, 11:03

• “I don't know what my father look like... I haven't seen him. I don't know him.”
  — Tamarion Hayes, 14:27

• “We are not asking you to turn him loose or overturn this conviction. All we're saying is that there is a mountain of evidence in this case that the wrong person is in prison and he can't even get a day in court. That shouldn't be where we are.”
  — Jason Gishner, 27:11

• “It’s almost impossible. I mean, that's the reality, is this is almost impossible.”
  — Noah Pines (defense attorney), 23:14

• “If Sarah’s the missing piece, I’m gonna find her. I’m gonna get her.”
  — Q, 35:46

• “What if Sarah is so bad off she wants to make a deathbed confession? The window is closing.”
  — Stephanie Tinsley, 38:08

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Content Summary | |----------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Stephanie’s disclaimer on presumption of innocence | | 02:11 | Jason Gishner discusses the unprecedented denial | | 05:58 | Flora Hayes shares early memories and Andrew’s learning difficulties | | 09:16 | Flora on Andrew’s coerced confession | | 10:21 | Flora describes the impact of the guilty verdict | | 14:27 | Tamarion Hayes describes impact of losing his father | | 22:03 | Noah Pines explains legal technicalities and near-impossible burden | | 24:19 | Court of Appeals hearing begins | | 27:11 | Jason Gishner’s passionate closing argument to the judges | | 33:19 | PI Q is introduced; the plan to find Sarah Lucas | | 36:14 | Q hunts for Sarah in Oklahoma | | 38:08 | Revelation about Sarah's health and urgency of a possible confession | | 41:09 | Cliffhanger hint at game-changing information |

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Tone and Language

Stephanie maintains an urgent, empathetic, and candid tone, blending investigative grit with genuine compassion for the Hayes family. The language is direct and personal, amplifying the voices of those most affected.

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Flow & Structure

• Begins with an update on the failed legal path, setting up why new evidence is needed.
• Humanizes the case through the Hayes family’s testimony, especially Flora and Tamarion’s raw pain.
• Brings tension and momentum as the investigation shifts towards the search for Sarah.
• Leaves off on a suspenseful, unresolved note, setting the stage for explosive revelations in future episodes.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode moves beyond true crime procedural or legal minutiae into a riveting, emotional exploration of the personal cost of injustice and the slow, resistant machinery of the courts. It’s about family, pain, and hope clinging to life under impossible odds—with the promise that, despite everything missed, the truth may yet come out.

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Transcript

[Stephanie Tinsley]

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[Jason Gishner]

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[Stephanie Tinsley]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Jason Gishner]

Cut the camera.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

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[Jason Gishner]

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[Liberty Mutual Narrator]

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[Stephanie Tinsley]

The following story discusses individuals connected to the case of Danny Harris. Except for those previously convicted in this matter, no one mentioned in this series has been officially named a suspect, person of interest or found guilty of any crime related to his death.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

So the judge didn't even wait for the investigation that the JRU was going to do?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Nope. What do you think is happening?

[Jason Gishner]

So, you know, I guess what we were talking about is that, you know, it shouldn't be so difficult when people have evidence that proves they're innocent.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

To get back to the courthouse, Jason Gishner submitted the PCECN to the Memphis court. The packet we covered last episode, full of all the new evidence they collected. Then they waited to see if it would earn them a hearing. A chance to argue Andrew's case. But on November 15, 2024, Judge Poliskane returned the answer. Denied.

[Jason Gishner]

So this puts us in a terrible posture because now we have to appeal just to get a hearing. And the appeal process is slow and long and more difficult. She never even let us come to court and talk about it.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Has this ever happen before in Shelby county for you?

[Flora Hayes]

No.

[Jason Gishner]

This is the first time in Shelby County a judge has ever not let us have a hearing. I can only hope that the appellate court sees it for what it is and lets the man have his hearing.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

The appeal date was set for August 2025. One real shot at overturning Andrew's conviction. Because if it doesn't work, more than likely his story ends here. I'm Stephanie Tinsley, and this is everything they missed. Episode six, the Years. Mom.

[Flora Hayes]

Huh? Put it over there by Drake. Baby, Censor yourself some, girl, please.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

You don't have to censor yourself. And neither do you, baby.

[Flora Hayes]

I'mma need for her to censor her, please.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

It had been months since I started the podcast, when a small crew and I took a drive to Frazier, a neighborhood just on the north side of Memphis. I had nerves. The kind that catch your breath when you're about to ask a mother, one who's lived through a hard loss, to trust you with their story. But she didn't flinch. Andrew's mom, Flora Hayes, welcomed the idea. I have five kids and Andrew, or.

[Flora Hayes]

Wayne, is my firstborn. I was 15 when I had Wayne.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And did his dad stay in his life?

[Flora Hayes]

Somewhat. But no, it was mainly me and my mom, Sylvia Hayes, that raised him. My mom always told me that the firstborn child belongs to her. So the minute we get out of the hospital, that's her baby. And he just grew up to that.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Time doesn't move so fast in Fraser. The houses are small, put up on old brick, some barely hanging on grass, creeping in the cracks. But there's heart in it too, a kind of pride that lives alongside the porches and flower pots. And when we pull up to Flora's, before we could step out of the car, that pride greeted us. A whole family poured out of her home. Flora, her husband, Andrew's younger sister, Launda, her son, Andrew's little brother Deangelo, and his three year old. All of them wide eyed and excited to have us there. It took a minute, but then I noticed a big kid as well. A teenager with shoulders like a college linebacker. My friend Elizabeth leaned over to me and whispered, I think that's Tamarian, Andrew's son. We all crammed into Flora's living room and when she began to speak, although you could feel the energy buzzing, they gave her the floor, like they knew this wasn't just her story, but all of theirs. So when did you realize that Wayne had some differences?

[Flora Hayes]

I want to say when Wayne got about a year old, he started like rocking or laying him in the bed and he was sitting just like bump his head on a pillow until he fall asleep. And so we took him to the doctor for that and we found out that he had bad nerves.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And that's all the doctor told you that? He just said bad nerves and he.

[Flora Hayes]

Said that hopefully that wine will grow out of it one day. But he never did.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I could immediately tell Flora is the kind of mother who likes to tell it straight, firm but loving. She was never about to let her son give up on himself. When Andrew didn't want to get on the school bus, she said, you're not different, you're Just a little behind. And that's no excuse to stop trying. Though Andrew kept at it. He struggled with school, but he was a good kid. Never arrested, never in trouble with police. He played double Dutch and freeze tag until dark. Joined dance battles and rap circles around the neighborhood. By 17, he was working a corner store job. That's when he met Chawanna. Not long after she was pregnant, they moved in together and life started speeding up. And so when Tamarion was born, how did Wayne react?

[Flora Hayes]

The joy of his life. He had a son. And that was his main conversation from that day forward. My son wants to be his dad. He kept him with him. She didn't have to worry about taking care of him. She didn't have to buy him anything. She didn't have to do anything. Every time he left home, he had him.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

After Tamarion was born, Andrew and Truana ended up living with Joanna's mother, Snow. Flora didn't like it. Said there was something about her that just didn't sit right. It was over at Snow's place that she also met Tammy Vance for the first time. Another woman who, in Flora's eyes, couldn't be trusted. Not long after that, everything unraveled.

[Flora Hayes]

When he went down there for questioning. No more Wayne. So I go to work and come home and my mom sitting on the porch and she was like, no, he ain't came back home yet. So I automatically start calling 201. I wanted to talk to someone that was questioning him. No one. Never would return my phone calls. The next thing I know, he's being arrested for murder.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Why were you calling up to the police station?

[Flora Hayes]

Because Wayne has a learning disability. A lot of stuff y' all are going to tell him. You he's not gonna understand it. So me being his parent, I think I should have been there for when you started questioning him. A lot of times you can tell him something. It's like he really didn't comprehend. You have to sit there and explain it to him.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Did it surprise you that he confessed?

[Flora Hayes]

Well, to be honest, with his nerves condition and his problems was just plump stressing out of his mind. So eventually he just said some stuff to satisfy them.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Back then, Flora was a single mother raising five kids with the help of her own mama scraping by just to keep the lights on and the school supplies in their backpacks. Hiring a lawyer that was out of reach. So they did what families like hers so often have to do. They prayed.

[Flora Hayes]

I sat there from. From the first day of trial till trial ended, I was there. I Didn't get any sleep. I just mainly wanted to see what was going to happen to my son. I really thought he was coming home.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

So when you heard guilty, what did you think?

[Flora Hayes]

That knocked soul out of me. My whole world just dropped. I mean, after that, I think I stayed off work like two weeks trying to comprehend that verdict.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

So with Wayne being locked up for Danny's murder, if he didn't commit the murder, that means the real killer's still out there.

[Flora Hayes]

Yes, ma'.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Am. What would you say to that person?

[Flora Hayes]

I would tell that person is that you really, you really hurt this family. I mean, you really tore us down. That now we are trying to rebuild and you're out living your best life while he's been convicted of something he didn't do. You don't have a conscience. I don't judge because God is going to judge you in the end. But have a heart. Be compassionate. You had him locked up and he had a newborn baby. He wasn't here to see his song grow up. That threw him down the wrong road. Just turn yourself in. Cuz I miss. I miss my son. I just turned 59. My son been gone. Took 18 years. Over 18 years. I can't do it. And I think about them telling my mom that he's coming home. But he has made it back home yet.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Who told your mom he was coming home?

[Flora Hayes]

Tammy. She was like, I'm gonna make it right.

It wasn't right.

It wasn't right for him to even be locked up.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Do you feel like you have to be strong for the whole family?

[Flora Hayes]

I have to. They look up to me. So when I cry by myself, I try not to let them see me down. And my strength ain't here no more. My mom gone.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

How did your mom feel when.

[Jason Gishner]

She.

[Flora Hayes]

Kept telling me, hold on, baby, he coming, he coming home. Plum up to the day my mom.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Passed.

[Flora Hayes]

I didn't want have to tell him that news. And he was in there.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I watch as Flora, just shy of 60 years old, proud, stoic, start to shift the strength she's carried for decades begins to give away. Okay, you want to take a sip of water or anything?

[Flora Hayes]

I am so good.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

You're so good.

[Flora Hayes]

I'm good. It's just some tears I needed to cry.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

When I look around the room, it's dead quiet. Everyone's doing their best, eyes glazed to hold it in. But to Marian, Andrew's son, perched on the arm of the sofa, is unraveling. The tears are pouring. He's just drowning.

[Flora Hayes]

He's been locked up his entire son life, from an infant baby to 18 years. He's 18 now.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

What makes you cry, sweetie?

[Tamarion Hayes]

Me knowing that my father didn't do it.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Scoot closer to you, Grandma. Sweetie.

[Flora Hayes]

Come on over, baby.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Without a second thought, Tamarion reaches for the mic like he's been holding it in his whole life.

[Tamarion Hayes]

It affect me hard because I'm going to. This is right now. I have been in jail two times since the age of 15. I haven't had a real father figure. So the decisions I made, I haven't had no one to teach me the right from the wrong. I mean, my mom, she tried, but she can't do it all. And me knowing that my father could be with me today, it hurts because I haven't seen him. I don't know what my father look like. Like my. Like they said, I'm finna be 19. I haven't seen my father. I don't know him. I never seen him.

[Flora Hayes]

And.

[Tamarion Hayes]

He'S supposed to be here with us.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Tamarion is a football player, a good one. It was his compass until injuries and getting caught up in the wrong crowd knocked him off course. He's seen and experienced horrible things. He says he once watched Memphis police gun down a close friend. 21 shots. Then they cuffed his body as he lay still. At 15, he was locked up for nearly three years from inside the system. He graduated high school top of his class, and now he's on probation. An angle monitor strapped on football scholarships just out of reach. And at the root of it all, a father taken away, a father he's never met. I look at this kid, a good kid, and think, how do you grow up from that? How do you even begin to make sense of the world around you?

[Tamarion Hayes]

I think about this every day. If my dad was here, I wouldn't be doing just the stuff I'm doing now. In the streets, running wild tow guns and stuff. I wouldn't be doing that. It'd be different.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I explained it to Marian, what the Innocence Project is working toward. That they believe his father is innocent, that the case isn't over, and they're appealing the judge's dismissal. And if he had a message for his father, what would he say?

[Tamarion Hayes]

It's a process.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Second.

[Tamarion Hayes]

It's a process. Just trust the process and trust the people that believe in you. It's a process. You gotta. It's gonna take a while. But in the end, just know justice, it will be served.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

We start to pack up when Lakanda, Andrew's younger sister, bubbly, bold, Bouncing with energy bursts out of the front door, gleaming. The Avengers are here. The Justice Avengers are here.

[Flora Hayes]

The Avengers on our side.

[Judge]

The Avengers.

[Jason Gishner]

Part of the Avengers.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Soft and steady. Flora also whispers to me, something's going to change because you're here. Suddenly I feel a glimpse at what it must be like to be part of the Innocence Project team. With nothing but a notepad and a family full of hope looking back at you, eyes asking, will you be the one to save Andrew? At this point, I was trying everything I could to help Andrew's case. I even managed to get connected to Sarah Lucas. You might remember at the end of the last episode, through mutual friend of hers on Facebook. I sent a message hoping she'd agree to meet. But the response came back through that friend Sarah wasn't interested. No interview, no involvement. I told myself that was okay, that the pressure wasn't on me, that the real work was in the hands of Jason Gishner and his team. But then August came. Hello, Is this Pacific Source Health Plans?

[Liquid IV Narrator]

This is a health plan.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm trying to reach Pacific Source. I know I'll get a person on the phone when I call them.

[Liquid IV Narrator]

What do you think I am?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I mean, you sound like a person. That's what counts.

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[Stephanie Tinsley]

What did you say your name was?

[Liquid IV Narrator]

Nexa 9000.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Hmm.

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[Liberty Mutual Narrator]

Yeah. So the petition was denied because in essence, the judge found that nothing was new, that there was no new evidence.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

With the original hearing Denied. I wanted to understand why. Not from Jason or his team. They're in the fight. I wanted to hear from someone outside of it, someone who could cut through the legal jargon and tell me in plain English what it all meant. So I called a friend, Noah Pines, a sharp Atlanta defense attorney who's handled wrongful convictions himself, to walk me through it.

[Liberty Mutual Narrator]

What they were trying to do in this petition is say, like, look, this, we have something new. And because of that newness, he, you know, there's new evidence and he's innocent. And the problem is, is that the new evidence wasn't really new. It was all stuff that just really wasn't presented. And there's nothing that, even if it was newly discovered, there's nothing that really shows actual innocence. You know, the fact that somebody else says somebody else did it isn't new and it's not actual innocence. I mean, he could just still been there and been some sort of a co conspirator or a party.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I later learned that Judge Skane had issued a 38 page report explaining why she denied a hearing. That's what Noah had read before we spoke.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

So what they had told me, the Innocence Project lawyer, is they've got affidavit now from Sarah Lucas's nieces and nephews that they couldn't have gotten at the time saying it's not a secret in our family that Sarah did this. And everybody talks about it, but that's not new.

[Liberty Mutual Narrator]

That's new. Corroborating, right? I mean, is that new? Not really. The question is, well, what would have been new? What, what could have been done? Well, maybe if you could have proved that he was in another state, you know, and you have video evidence of him in that other state, you know, that's new evidence or something, you know, really groundbreaking, that everything that the police said was, you know, planted or something like that. But unfortunately, it's a rehashing of what they had before in a, in a better way. It's repackaged and it's done better and more concise and more persuasive. But the problem is you can't do that now. It's too late. It's sad, you know, reading the orders from the judge, but they're, they're legally sound. And, you know, the Innocence Project would have to show that there's clear and convincing evidence that Andrew's innocent. And that's a hard burden. Not just that he could be innocent, but the clear and convincing that, you know, he's innocent. And all the stuff that they brought up doesn't prove that it's so hard to do this. It's almost impossible. I mean, that's the reality, is this is almost impossible.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

August 4, 2025. That was the date set for Andrew's appeal in front of the Tennessee State Court of Appeals. After hearing Noah's opinion, I was nervous how it would unfold, but I told myself I'd stay optimistic.

[Jason Gishner]

Good morning, you, Honors.

[Flora Hayes]

Good morning.

[Jason Gishner]

Jason Kishner, on behalf of Mr. Hayes. It is my first time appearing before two of you, and I'm grateful to be here with you today.

[Judge]

Mr. Gishner. Great. You may proceed.

[Jason Gishner]

Thank you.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

That morning, I drove to Jackson, Tennessee, to watch in person. Inside the courtroom, Jason stood alone at a curved podium, three judges in black robes staring back at him. To his right, said a fellow Innocence Project attorney. To his left, Ronald Coleman, arguing for the state. Jason took his shot. Maybe the last one Andrew will ever get.

[Jason Gishner]

The primary issue I'd like to discuss this morning is the trial court's misapplication of the Clardy decision by denying equitable tolling.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

All I was hoping, all anyone was hoping was that the judges would see things like we did.

[Jason Gishner]

First of all, we have five new witnesses that are willing to come to court that say that Sarah Lucas confessed to the crime.

[Judge]

Do any of those witnesses have firsthand knowledge that. Mr.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm sorry.

[Judge]

Hayes did not commit this offense.

[Jason Gishner]

So Tyler Landers does.

[Judge]

First hand knowledge?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Yeah.

[Jason Gishner]

He overheard a conversation which is in his affidavit between Sarah Lucas and his mother, Heather Balderas, who was Sarah Lucas.

[Judge]

That's firsthand knowledge, that is.

[Jason Gishner]

Well, he has firsthand knowledge of the confession. He heard her say that she committed the crime.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

But that fear tore at me. What if they saw it the way Noah Pines had?

[Judge]

So you're asking this court to make credibility determinations about a witness in an affidavit?

[Jason Gishner]

I'm asking this court, per Clarty, to assume what these people say is true and that their credibility should be tested at a hearing.

[Judge]

Clardy doesn't require us to get to that point until you establish in your petition that the evidence is new evidence, which presupposes that it is admissible. You've not demonstrated that yet.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And in the end, it felt like that's exactly what happened.

[Judge]

Those five family members are going to say exactly what the mother testified to at the defendant's trial, and that is she was covering for the daughter because the daughter is the one who actually did this. That was testimony at trial that the jury rejected and that, to me, is part of what the trial, the air quorum nobis court was trying to say. This is all basically cumulative of what mother testified to at trial.

[Jason Gishner]

So they have information beyond what mother said about the financial arrangement, about the circumstances of how the murder happened. But what I would argue, your honor, is that if the evidence presented at trial was true and rejected by the jury and it proves that he was innocent, and we have lots of people after the fact that are going to come in and say, you got it wrong, because this person has confessed to committing the crime, and we know the details and circumstances of how she did it, and we can back that up with objective physical evidence that proves it's true and she did it and this other guy didn't. That should meet equitable tolling for the purposes of having a hearing. We are not asking you to turn him loose or overturn this conviction. All we're saying is that there is a mountain of evidence in this case that the wrong person is in prison and he can't even get a day in court. That shouldn't be where we are.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Jason ended strong, but I walked out of the courtroom that day feeling distraught.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

Well, I do not think it went well. Yeah, I do not. I do not.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Did they ask the question of what would have hearing him done?

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

Yes. Well, they just asked why he thought that this was new evidence. I mean, that's what they really were hammering.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

On the drive home, I called my husband, Mark, just to download it all, to talk through what had happened, how it really felt.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

I mean, he's. It's. He. He was well prepared. He argued very well. He had his case law. They let him argue well over his 20 minutes. So he's got 20 minutes, 16 minutes to argue, and then four minutes for rebuttal. He argued well over that both times. But, you know, they. They were pretty much just. They asked a lot of questions. The plating judge was the one that asked the most questions. And, you know, she was just basically saying, none of this seems new.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

What. What was the state's position? What did the state say?

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

That judge Skane was right. And I'm trying to think. I don't know. It's all kind of running together, but it's on like, it's. Elizabeth is watching it right now like it was. It's already on YouTube. But, you know, I think one of the things the state was saying was it doesn't prove that Andrew wasn't there. You know, it doesn't matter if.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Technically.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

If he didn't know Annie Harris.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

It does prove he wasn't there, but I don't disagree. That's not new.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

But.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

So Jason was trying to argue that the totality of all of it shows that he's not. Because he kept trying to argue the case and one of the judges stopped him and said, we're not arguing the case. But I don't know. I mean, I think you'll watch it and you'll say the same thing that you said when you read the petition of Judge Skane. Wrote a very thoughtful belt and suspenders response. And you know, there's nothing.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Unfortunately, no one said it outright, but I could feel it. We might have just seen the moment that decides everything.

[Liquid IV Narrator]

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[Stephanie Tinsley]

So why do you prefer Andrew over Wayne?

[Flora Hayes]

Because like, Andrew is the person who, who went through it. To me, I just feel like Andrew was the strongest one that could have went through with the storm that I'm going through.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Fast forward. It's October 2025 now and there's been no ruling, no sign, not even a whisper of what the answer might be.

[Flora Hayes]

I thought my life was over. Jason came. I got tired staying. Since I met Jason today, it's just. He's an angel. That's all I can say.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I started listening back to my interview with Andrew and remembered our visits inside the prison. I couldn't see a killer in him. It just didn't make sense. By every measure, logic, reason, and just gut instinct, he was an innocent man. And he wasn't just sitting still either. Jason had made him promise that if the Innocence Project took his case, he'd earn his ged. At the time, he was only weeks away from graduating. Hearing the fight in his voice, I couldn't stomach the thought of the worst answer coming back, of watching the hope drain from him as someone breaks the news. Because if this appeal failed, the paths left to clear his name would only get harder, fainter.

[Flora Hayes]

I think people, people do need to hear, you know, how. How it's easy to get caught up in things when really imps. To be honest with you, I just pray that other people don't have to go through what I'm going through. If you don't have to go through it, you shouldn't have to go through it. And this is my journey. This is Andrew's journey that God put me on, and he knew that I was strong enough to stand. And this journey taught me a lot about life. You can't take life for granted once you're out there in the free world because you can get stressed from them just like that. I was just staying focused on the things I need to stay focused on things that I need to succeed with in life when the door do come open for me.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

By nature. I've never been great at waiting around either, especially when something feels unfinished. And that weight was killing me. I felt like there had to be something more we could do, something we hadn't seen yet. So I got to work.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Yeah, it's going to be one of those cases where you have to be in their face, kind of like.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Yeah.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

And how to know how to approach them as far as being able to be subtle in the approach and letting them know that it's just about a documentary and, you know.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Right. Yeah. Through Clark Chapman, I got connected with a private investigator who goes by one letter Q. He's been in the game for decades. A ghost when he wants to be, a shadow when he doesn't. One minute he's slipping into a Memphis dope house, the next blending into a white linen restaurant. His business is people, especially the ones who'd rather stay hidden. He tracks them, corners them, drags them into the light. And with his help, though it costs more than a few pennies, we finally started shaking things loose.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Okay, I've got teach, juror 51. I've got 44. He was the office manager.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

We started with the jurors. It wasn't something I'd really seen done in a true crime podcast before, but I wanted to know, who were these people? How did they think, what stuck with them after all this time? You've already heard from a few in the trial episode, but after we had so much success with them, I posed another possibility.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

I would love to know if. If you would want to go try.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

To find Sarah and try to talk to her.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

I don't know if you could.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Sarah.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

If Sarah's the interest in missing peace, if she's the missing piece, I'll tell you, you catch her, you know, it would take maybe a little minor background check and then a little small surveillance and find out what the information is, the. The right information, and just go out.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

There and see her. He quoted me a Price, it was high. Higher than I wanted to spend just to find one person. And knowing she had already spoken to the Innocence Project investigator and given him the runaround, I was skeptical we'd get anything new. But Q was confident. Based on how she'd acted before, how she bragged about the murders to family, he believed there was a way in. A way to get her talking again.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

So I tell you what. I'm gonna find her. I'm gonna get her.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

I believe you. I have no doubt.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

And you will be the first one that's been able to, because nobody else has been able to.

[Flora Hayes]

I'll get her.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I know I'll get her.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

We'll get it going.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Based on her last known whereabouts and what we could find online, we were pretty sure Sarah was living in Duncan, Oklahoma. We just didn't know where. So Q drove up to find out.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Okay, this is my second day here in Duncan, man. I've been about 15 different addresses last two days. She's been seen at a store twice. Lads been spotted, like, two or three times. I've seen somebody seen Sarah last week, but they've moved from all these different addresses. But tonight, I've got three of the same addresses. I'm gonna go back tonight to see. See if anybody's going to be there. Car wise.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Feeling like he was just missing her by inches, we decided to switch tactics. He started looking for Gary Rydell, Sarah's husband.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

I'm going to go back to the two addresses that I've got new on Gary Rydell, because that's probably where Sarah was going to be there together. But then I looked at Facebook. He keeps telling her he loves her and he wants. She's his whatever. You know, you probably need to look at it. Have you got her Facebook page?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

What makes these love notes stranger is we were also able to see that Gary is living with a woman named Rakul, who happens to be married to someone else. Regardless of whatever was going on in this tangled circle, one thing was clear. If Q could find Gary, Sarah probably wouldn't be far behind.

[Judge]

Okay.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

All right, here's where we are. Just met the twin sister of Gary Rydell. They don't talk.

[Flora Hayes]

He's a crook.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Sister says that he's trying to do everything he can to sell stuff. And Seth, he owes everybody's money and everything. Now, also, Sarah COD on some drugs and her medication. They're saying Sarah's threatening amputation of her foot. So she's bad off. No telling.

[Jason Gishner]

We probably.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

It's no telling where she'll be. But Sarah is bad off wherever she is.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

We've been told, but have not been able to confirm that Sarah may have suffered an overdose. True or not, she's having significant health issues. And somewhere in Duncan, Oklahoma, in some hospital bed, Sarah Lucas is hanging on by a thread. And that's when a major realization hits me. What if Sarah is so bad off she wants to make a deathbed confession? The window is closing. Her words, her full account of what actually happened that night, may be the only thing that can save Andrew from dying in prison. And if she really is near the end, what does she have to lose? With a bit more pushing, Q connects with Sarah's father and lands the final clue.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Which hospital is saving.

[Jason Gishner]

It's a rehab across the street. Hospital across the street from Integral.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Right there in Oklahoma, too. With the name of the hospital in hand, Sarah's location, Q makes a plan. What happens next is something I can't quite share yet. And actually, this is where I have to pause this story. Don't worry, it's not over. Not even close. As I record these words. We're still investigating, but since we're trying to keep up with the new breaks in this case, here's what we're going to do. We're taking a short break. We'll return in two months with four final episodes where new leads emerge, new people come forward, and the truth keeps changing faster than we can tell it. What I can say for certain is that what's coming next might just change everything. They missed 911. Where's your emergency? Yes, ma', am. I need a officer and an ambulance. There was a suicide. There was a suicide. He does came up and all that. He looked at her. He said, sarah, I'm sorry. Took a gun and blew his brains out.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

I think you need to listen to the conversation because you're recording me, right?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

I'm recording you, yeah.

[Jason Gishner]

Okay.

[Q (Private Investigator)]

Yeah, go in like that. Let's go in hot like that. Stay on the line.

[Mark (Stephanie's husband)]

What I was wanting to get straightened out is why would Snow not help?

[Stephanie Tinsley]

Oh, they knew. And if she wouldn't help him, she told me she wouldn't help him because even I was into about money. There's no wanted money for me, you, everybody. I think it's over. There's got to be some actual new evidence. We need a witness to come forward. We need to find something that's genuinely new.

[Flora Hayes]

I know that God got something for me. He got some for him. Because if he did, I won't be going through what I'm going through right now.

[Stephanie Tinsley]

It's just sickening. I mean, it's. There's no joy in this. There's no joy in this. What the. What joy is this? There's no joy in this. None. You're never going to believe who reached out to me last night over X. This message flips every flips the entire case on its head. I can't even believe this is happening. Thank you for listening to everything they missed. If you want more, follow me on social media he Stephanie Tinsley for extended interviews and deeper details into the story. And visit us anytime [e-mail] to see photos, videos, or leave a voice message for me on our tip line if you think you have information to help this case. Also, don't forget to follow, rate and review this show. It helps more than you know.