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Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft.
EEC 368: 8 Stories for Personal Transformation at Work and at Large, with Bob Kaplan
00:20:10
Bob Kaplan is the author of , a series of short stories that bring executive coaching to life. His unique style is both entertaining and offers a novel way of learning about leadership and self-improvement. To improve is to grapple with yourself....
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- [00:05]
A
Do you suffer from the imposter syndrome? Let's ask Bob Kaplan, who's written a short story book on how leaders overcome their imposter syndrome. Welcome to the excellent executive coaching Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Katrina Bireuse, and today we have Bob Kelly Kaplan. Bob, welcome.
- [00:32]
B
Thank you so much, Katrina. It's a treat to be on your show.
- [00:36]
A
Well, thank you for being on the show. Now, you've just written a book called Grappling, and it's, I think, on the imposter syndrome. But tell us, what motivated you to write it?
- [00:48]
B
I've spent my whole career writing nonfiction books, articles, and so on. And a few years ago, I was wanting to find another way to offer some of what I've learned over the course of my career, consulting to senior managers on their leadership, you know, individuals and teams and so on. And I hit on the idea of writing fiction. Now, this is fiction about real people. It's like historical fiction. You know, it's about real events and real people, but a lot of the scenes are imagined. Same story in this book. So there are eight stories of people working on themselves, trying to raise their game with the help of a guide, in most cases a coach. But a couple of exceptions. There's a friend and there's an HR person, and you see the struggle to, first of all, know yourself and to get a handle on what keeps it from changing and quite possibly making headway. Now, there's one story called Nothing but the Best, which is the guy is the embodiment of defensiveness, so he gets fired. So not every story is a success story.
- [01:59]
A
Yes. Great. Well, tell us a little bit more about the imposter syndrome.
- [02:02]
B
Yeah, you know, that comes up from time to time. People will tell me, I've got the imposter syndrome. I got to thinking, well, what is the imposter syndrome? And I think it's that the person is better than they think. And another way of saying that or understanding that is they underestimate how good they are. So I always want to help people grow and improve. So I thought to myself, well, how can you correct this tendency to underestimate yourself? Which has a good part, by the way. People underestimate themselves. You know what? They work harder because they're making up for a deficit. Now, it may be an imagined deficit, nevertheless, they work harder. They may work way too hard. They may work too hard, but put that aside for the moment. So how do you correct for an underestimate? Well, I'm in the feedback business. We collect feedback from Coworkers, interviews and ratings, and we give people a concentrated dose of positive reinforcement. And I want to take one step back and say, if a person, let's take a young, up and coming, super smart woman who underestimates how smart she is, what effect would that have on her behavior? You can imagine easily that she might not speak up in meetings for fear that she'd be, what? Stupid? So she might hold herself back. That's easy to picture. But what's interesting about the effect of underestimating yourself is it can go the complete opposite way. And the person overcompensates. And we all have that experience of somebody who won't shut up, who's very obviously trying to demonstrate to us that she's smart and knowledgeable. So then they go too far.
- [03:50]
A
That's right. So there's a ying and the yang they can underestimate in both cases. But one, they stay quiet and reserved and won't engage as much, and the other one is constantly overtly trying to engage and prove that their value is good.
- [04:09]
B
Exactly, exactly. So we prepare an appreciation report. There's also a concerns report, an appreciation report, everything good said about this person, all the good ratings, and we. So we've sitting at the table, there's the report or two reports. And what's interesting is that practically every leader on every continent, inhabited continent that I've worked with, they're like, they're drawn to the negative feedback like a moth to a flame. And it's hard to get them to pay serious attention to the positive feedback. We're curious, aren't we? We human beings wired with our brains wired the way they are. So we know that. And so we go over the appreciation report first. And then what's interesting is it's like I'm handing this person I know underestimates herself a glass of positive reinforcement. Privately, she's thirsty for it.
- [05:12]
A
Private.
- [05:13]
B
But ironically, she won't necessarily take the glass from my hand. Oh, no, that's okay, that's okay, I'm not thirsty. Or if she does take the glass from my hand, she takes a sip and puts the glass down.
- [05:29]
A
So in a sense, the image that the person has of themselves and what you're telling them is there's a gap and they can't really accept it. Is that what you're saying?
- [05:39]
B
Well, I can say to them, you know, you underestimate yourself. And often it comes out in this way. So the person is rated on overall effectiveness, the results, and leadership. And somebody who underestimates themselves Underrates themselves. So let's say a person's rated 85 on 100 point scale, like in school in this country, and they rate themselves 75. Or the gap can be bigger, 75 versus 95. So it's clear that they underestimate themselves. But something's in the way of them taking this glass of water, which will quench their thirst. And then the question is, what is it that typically gets in the way? And it's humility. People say, no, no, no. I was taught not to brag. I was taught never to get a swelled head. I was taught the worst thing that you can be is arrogant. You're too big for your britches. It's drilled into our heads as children. And so that voice that says, careful, careful, you're at risk of being arrogant. You're at risk of being overconfident. And that blocks the way. That blocks the way. I like to say it blocks the uptake of the positive reinforcement. Okay, so in the old days, I mean, I've known that positive feedback is useful, my colleagues and I, but we simply encourage the person to take it in. Lately, if I see that the person has difficulty accepting the positive feedback, then we put our finger on what is it that's blocking the way. It could be humility. Whatever it is, we draw it out of the two of us. Draw it out and then put that on the table and go to work on that. Because unless you deal with that, the person's not able to benefit from the positive feedback.
- [07:36]
A
Yes. So I just have a comment. I'm Swiss and American, and in Switzerland, it's not well seen to brag. Contrary to maybe some of the French, to be brilliant is very well perceived. To have a good handle on the dialectic argumentation is well perceived in France. Well, in Switzerland, you don't want to brag. It's like it's a consensus base and everything. So. And it's a small country and there's not much mobility. So if you brag and you don't deliver, everyone might know I'm exaggerating. But that's about it. Here. Come to the U.S. i was spellbound. In the beginning, people were saying how much they could do well and what they do and how fabulous. I said, oh, I want to buy all of this. This is incredible. So it is also a cultural element, and maybe it's limiting to have a culture where you don't brag. It's true. In a highly mobile society, not to say quickly, which you can do well is a disadvantage. Okay, So I would be interested in looking at. It's a cultural thing as well. And I guess you're more. In that case, it would be more drilled in. You know, you can't brag in Switzerland than here, where they promote themselves much better, according to my perception. What's your comment on that?
- [09:10]
B
Well, no doubt there's a cultural influence as well as an influence by your parents or your teachers and so on. Yeah, you make a good point. Can I give you an example of somebody who's humble and has to wrestle with it?
- [09:26]
A
Yes.
- [09:27]
B
So I consulted to a senior guy and I told him, on average, his Overall effectiveness was a 94, which is a straight A. He was raised Catholic. I don't know if. And he said that it influenced him to be humble. He learned that in church, and he was not able to accept and benefit and feel good about the very high appreciation. I said to him, what would you call that? Your humility? He said after a moment's thought, the down player. It's like a downward pressure on his sense of self worth. So we just. He didn't change right away. We kept talking about this from different angles. And about a year later, we got on a video call together and he said, I'm more confident. I'm more comfortable in my own skin. He finally was able to let how good he was seep into his sense of self.
- [10:27]
A
Which leads me to my next question. How does a guide help this process? Surely you helped him in that process. So what is the role of the sparring partner?
- [10:43]
B
Yeah, well, in the example I gave, he was stuck. Humility blocked him from taking in the positives. And so I'm not patting myself on the head in a big way, but I thought at the moment to ask him sort of put a name to it, to make an object out of it, because if it's an object, then you can handle it.
- [11:05]
A
Great point.
- [11:07]
B
Yeah. I'll give you an example about somebody else. It's a very senior woman, recently promoted, and she said, I don't praise people enough. And then this came out in her feedback as well. It wasn't a fatal flaw, but it was a missed opportunity. I said, well, why don't you praise people just to ask? I mean, that's a simple thing, but it helps to ask. And I do a lot of asking, bringing people out. When I work with people, I don't do that much telling. And in fact, that's a choice I'm always making. Not just in helping people, but in my life. Do I ask or do I tell?
- [11:42]
A
Yes, that's a good coaching approach, I think. Essential coaching approach. Yeah.
- [11:47]
B
And it's tempting once you know a lot to show what you know. Right. A little ego gratification. So to keep a little break on that and bring people out. When people discover things for themselves, self directed, it means more than if they're told something.
- [12:05]
A
So in this case that you just mentioned, how did you help that person? You said you name it so it becomes an object so they can deal with it differently. Any other approach you have?
- [12:17]
B
Well, I'm going to finish the example about the woman who didn't praise people. So I asked her, so why don't you praise people more often? I'm not good at it. So then I thought to say, well, let's role play that. Make me one of the people on your team who's just done something that really pleases you. Just tell me, let's have that conversation. Well, she did a perfectly good job. And I said to her, I guess you're good enough at giving praise. And she said, I'm going to start doing that every day at least once. That's not genius, Katrina, but it's being useful, very useful. Here's another example. So we have a 360 tool that we actually got a patent on for its way of assessing managers. Not just strengths and weaknesses, but strengths taken too far. And so it's common for a leader to be rated too little on being direct when they're not satisfied with somebody's performance not doing enough of holding people accountable. So the natural thing to say is what holds you back? What keeps you from doing it right? Just out of interest. It's interesting to take an interest. And this particular person said it's crucial to me to treat people well. My father was good to people. I follow his example. He stressed the importance of that. And if I'm going to be tough on people, then I'm going to hurt them and that violates my values. So in our course of our work with each other and he discovered that holding people accountable is not incompatible, I mean, yet with treating them well.
- [14:00]
A
Good.
- [14:01]
B
You know, it's a little duality, yin yang thing. Right. And he was camped out on one side of it that treat people well and was a little underdeveloped on the, hey, you got to tell people the truth about their performance.
- [14:15]
A
All right, great. And what happens if someone is over ambition, scared, has unrealistic expectations, self doubt, how do you disarm their intentions?
- [14:29]
B
Well, make the general statement first that improving and being a better person is about your mental game as much as it is about your quote's play on the field. You can look at your behavior, but so much of it is what happens between our ears. You know, the mental model, just our belief about how to lead, not to mention desires and fears. But back to mental model. Quick example. Consulted to somebody, engineering background, and we're going up for his feedback. And it occurred to me to say, well, what is your mental model of leading? Define leading. And he said, knowing things and getting things done. And I said, well, that fits, doesn't it? Because you're not that good at relationships and it's not part of your mental model.
- [15:18]
A
Great point, great point.
- [15:20]
B
Right. So for him, this is what we said to him and it was obvious to him too, you're not going to get any better at relationships unless you place more value on relationships. Unless you place more importance on relationships.
- [15:34]
A
Very good point. Yes.
- [15:36]
B
Examples of how, you know, aspiring partners, as you've said, can be helpful.
- [15:43]
A
So how do you drill down and find the blockers to change?
- [15:47]
B
Well, one thing, I mean, there are many ways it can come out in conversation. Some of the examples I've been giving you are examples of that, right?
- [15:55]
A
They are.
- [15:56]
B
We have a tool called the Inventory of Personal Functioning. It's all the ways in which people don't handle things well. How do you deal with rejection, how do you deal with failure, how well do you handle your emotions, so on and so forth. So the person's filled out that tool on themselves. Nobody else fills it out. And so we're working on their leadership. And I might say, well, how does this come into play? You know, if you're, you overreact and people are saying you take things personally and so that interferes with, you know, your effectiveness. Let's talk about how you can take things, do a better job of taking things in stride.
- [16:45]
A
That's great. So they come up with their own strategies.
- [16:49]
B
Yes.
- [16:50]
A
Tell us a little bit about the stories in your book.
- [16:54]
B
Yes. The idea is to bring to life what it's like to try to improve. It's like two steps forward, one step back. It's what's actually involved through these stories. And every leader is different. Every leader in the book, in these eight stories, has a different issue. They have a helper who has a particular personality as well. And you see the struggle with themselves and sometimes the struggle with the person trying to help them. They can be defensive and so on. And what you see in most of the stories is that the person, person can make progress. It may be challenging but if you keep at it, if you're committed, if you keep at it, you can make strides, you can improve, you can be better, you can be happier. Even so, I'm an optimistic person. I believe most problems can be solved. There's some in life that can't be beyond your ability. And I didn't write the book to carry that message, but that since that's me and I wrote the book and I have all this experience with people benefiting and growing, that's a sort of meta lesson across the eight stories. I should say, excuse me, at the end of the book. So these stories, like any short story, just end. The reader isn't told what the story meant, the reader isn't told what to do as a result of reading the story preferred. So you have to draw your own conclusions. And many of them are built into the story. The stories are instructive. But what I was leading to is at the end of the book, all the threads are pulled through and the major messages, the major themes are laid out in like four or five pages. I was just talking to a CEO a couple of hours ago who said he liked the stories and he really appreciated having it be specified at the end of the book the points that the book is meant to make.
- [18:54]
A
Great. So we're coming to the end of our podcast. Where can people get a hold of you and where can they purchase your book?
- [19:01]
B
They can get a hold of me at my email. B Kaplan K A P L A N Kaplan Devries. D E V as in Victor R I E S dot com. We also have a website, Kaplan Devries. My book. You saw it in the background and on the back cover. You get a sense of me. The subtitle is Leaders Striving to Improve. I'm a striver.
- [19:32]
A
Yes. Thank you so very much. And I encourage the listeners to purchase the book Grappling. Thank you, Bob.
- [19:39]
B
Thank you, Katrina. Thank you for listening to the Excellent Executive Coaching podcast. You can subscribe to all Future podcasts@excellentexecutivecoaching.com join us each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris CEO mastermind, use the contact form@Excellent Executive Coaching.com.