B (3:23)

Yeah. So when I go back and realize one of my early coaching engagements, which really kind of kicked off where we are nowadays, right. Is that people invest in coaching, but also they want results. So you need to have demonstratable results. And then all of a sudden people start thinking about coaching as an investment and return on that investment, rather than kind of a cost that we spent on a leader. And I remember that moment. I had been coaching that CEO for like nine months. Great results, amazing CEO to coach. And, and I was talking to him about results and this and that. And so we had a really nice discussion around this. And then I came back next month for our next coaching session and he said, hey Will, based on our discussion from last time, I had my CFO actually look at all the work we have been doing. And I asked my cfo, get me numbers, right? We're investing all this money in coaching for me and a lot of people in the executive team. What are the numbers? So the cfo, who himself was rather skeptical about coaching, even though he was being coached, he had to kind of cough up all the numbers. And the numbers were amazing. I mean they had like a 23% improvement in productivity of employees. They had a huge improvement in engagement of people. They had a huge improvement in profit margins of their products because, yeah, anyway, they attribute that all to the work they have been doing during the time of the coaching. And then I thought, yeah, that's it, right? You really need to make sure that you connect the numbers with the coaching because then everybody is on board. Anyway, that was more than 30 years ago now and that really changed everything. And since then, it's all about creating coaching services that are connected so that people can see and observe and measure the change that is happening.

A (5:15)

So tell us a little more of how you do the measurements. Of course you measure at the beginning. And so what are the kind of metrics do you use?

B (5:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So specifically focus on measurement. We basically do three main things. So one is we measure at the beginning to understand what is the main leadership challenge that the leader wants to work at. That's important to them and their organization. And let's take empowerment as an example, since we just talked about that. And then over the course of the coaching engagement, every quarter, we ask the leader themselves, their manager, their team and a few other co workers how satisfied they are with the improvements that the leader has made in the areas of empowerment. So we asked them to rate on a five point scale and we also ask people verbatim commentary around this. And we do that and we ask that satisfaction, that pulse satisfaction, questions about the leader. But also we ask it about the team. So we ask them how has the team become more effective as a result of the coaching and how satisfied are you with that? So they're being rated and we also asked it about results. So the performance results as a Result of the coaching, how satisfied are you with the improvement of those results? So now we measure on the leader level and on the team level, on the result level. And we get those satisfaction scores. And then they're being illustrated by people's verbatim on how that is colored in. And there were some clients, we also then linked that to their P and L because basically like pick a number, sales cost, whatever number you want to move. And then they have tools to measure that and we connect it then to the coaching as well.

A (7:04)

Very good.

B (7:06)

And then you get a water. And what happens here is not just actually measuring how the leader and the team and the results are changing, but what now happens is that the leader thinks like, yeah, you know, let's make this work because this is very much important. But also in the open. So the leader has a lot to at stake in this process. And then three, four months down the road, the team members are like, wow, yeah, my leader is, my manager is working on empowerment, getting better. And it's kind of, yeah, I can see how it's kind of working and how it's affecting me. And it's really cool. And they realize, yeah, you know, we as a team also need to get better from this because that's why it doesn't make sense. Right. If my manager gets better and I'm better empowered as a team, we have the obligation to also then be better also. That's really weird. So now they actually not only become participants, but they also become accountable and then they also start lifting their weight and they realize, yeah, my leader, my manager is getting better at empowerment. But leadership is actually not so much about just them, it's also about me because I'm being led. And leadership is like a two way street. It's like a dance together in a way. Now we need to get better together. So our focus is very much on co creating change with coworkers. And that really then creates that flywheel effect, that leader gets better, team gets better, results get better. And we have a 95% success rate with people to achieve that, which is amazing. But it works because these things, they hook into each other in a way. It's like a chain, right?

A (8:39)

Right, it's like a chain. And how frequently do you do these, let's say encounters where you ask the people the feedback?

B (8:48)

All right, yeah, so we actually ask feedback only at the beginning and on a monthly basis we ask feed forward suggestions and on a quarterly basis we then do the pulse, which is then a feedback review. Really. Right. So then you have A and asking Feed Forward is important because feedforward is a lot less judgmental because we're asking about a suggestion that the leader can do in the next 30 days in terms of empowerment to stick with that example. So it becomes very nonjudgmental, easy to talk about because people then are giving suggestions that are important to them and important to the manager at the same time, and the discussion becomes very easy.

A (9:32)

Very good point. I love the Feed Forward because you can't change the past, but that also empowers them to change the future. Yeah, absolutely. Very good. And you do this on a monthly basis, you ask for the feedback and you have a return on investment at the beginning and at the end of the coaching. Is that it?

B (9:53)

So we do the 360 feedback at the beginning and then we do pulses every quarter, including at the end. And at the end we look over the whole engagement, how the leader has improved.

A (10:04)

Okay, so you do the Pulse quarterly. Yeah, very good. So you really have not only the one to one, you have taken into consideration the stakeholders, their feedback, which becomes a co creation of the situation. So it has a cascading effect to the larger organization. Yeah.

B (10:28)

So just to shortly comment on what you just said, is that that logic that we created that leadership is co creating change with coworkers, we obviously see that in other areas in the organization they use that same philosophy. The way they manage projects, the way they manage product design, the way they manage software development or safety management or supply chain management. So we basically borrow all these accepted principles and ways of working in the organization that leaders already accept as effect. And we basically engineered that into the coaching process for two reasons. We know it works. Right. And secondly, for leaders and coworkers, it's easy to accept because we do it there, why not do it here?

A (11:14)

Right. And they're used to it and they expect it.

B (11:16)

Exactly. Yeah.

A (11:17)

Yeah, Very good. That's great. So what would you say a good leader is? How would you define good leadership? That would it be that they're very good on those five criterias? But let's say on a wider spectrum, what's a good leader for you?

B (11:37)

Yeah. So the definition of leadership, the way I see it is, is twofold. So leadership is getting things done through other people. And the way you do that is leading is co creating change with co workers. Now for that you need a whole spectrum of skills, some things which leaders are naturally relatively good at. So I had few leaders who say I need to develop myself in being more opinionated. Right. So most leaders are well, opinionated. Right. Are good at telling people what to do. Right. So there's a lot of things that people do naturally well and as they rise up to leadership, then they have no shortage on that. But the things that people need to develop further is what we earlier discussed. So a leader is probably a good metaphor, is probably a symphony orchestra director. So as a leader you need to be able to direct that symphony and direct that symphony orchestra. And why that metaphor is so useful is that in an orchestra you have lots of people with different musical instruments who all need to play their part. And when the leader does their job really well, it's an amazing symphony that you can hear. And strikingly, the leader is the only one who doesn't make any noise.

A (13:03)

That's great. Yes. So they orchestrate and they don't get their hands in the, in the making.

B (13:14)

Yeah.

A (13:15)

Sometimes it's hard for a leader to not get some kind of recognition. So how do you see leaders, you know, trying to get the recognition? In what way do they want that recognition?

B (13:29)

Yeah, that's a good question. Because that is also a little bit on the intersection of the good leaders and the not so good leaders. Because leaders who have high ego needs, who are typically self centered, kind of me thinking me leaders who also talk in terms of I decide this and I think this is a good idea versus the we centered leaders who always think about how can we do this, what needs to be done next, how can I mobilize my people, how will this impact others? So the leaders who are always thinking in terms of we and their coworkers and stakeholders and their environment, these are the great leaders and they know, same as the symphony orchestra director, they know that in the end they will get the credit. Because at the end of the evening of a symphony orchestra, symphony, it is the director who bows and gets the applause and is announced when he comes in and is said goodbye when he is leaving. Right. So as a leader, you need to have the confidence that if you let other people play their part, that people see and realize that you are the one who engineered or led it all. And part of that you need to manage that too. Right. You also need to manage your brand. You need to have your executive presence. You need to say, blow a little your horn that people kind of see that you were in charge of that. Again, for most leaders, that part comes natural, that it is being seen that they were part of it, that they led it. Yeah.

A (15:16)

Yes, they do have egos because they wouldn't be there if they didn't Somehow, yeah, it's managed to not detriment, which actually another thing.

B (15:27)

So most great and big leaders that I've been working with, they have big egos. And I don't tell them, you know, get rid of your ego because you can't. Yeah. Or they won't. And the point is, yeah, it's fine, have your ego, but make sure that your ego doesn't get in the way. So keep it at the background. Right. So many times I actually make jokes with leaders I coach about their family situation because a lot of the analogies at work and family actually go really well together. And it's like, yeah, you know, if you have a big ego at home, how does that work with your spouse and with your kids? Right. And they say, yeah, they kind of laugh and smirk and say, yeah, it doesn't. Right. At home I need to be a pussycat, and here I can be a lion. Right. And the point is. Yeah. You know, here also you need to understand when the lion is helpful and when the pussycat is helpful, so to say. Right. So understand how your ego is helping you and not helping you. And, and that's what you need to manage.

A (16:23)

So it's a lot of self awareness, you're saying.

B (16:25)

Yeah, exactly.

A (16:26)

Yeah. So tell us now how your process, the triple win support business, how does that increase performance? Now you just mentioned it. You tie the coaching, very much so to the results. And I'm sure that when you are such close contact with the stakeholders that you're getting a slew of organizational ideas even to bring back to the leader. Right. From the people that they more easily probably tell you in some cases than going directly to them. First of all, you have, you know, you give them time to express what they think. So not only is it helping the leader, but you're, you're probably getting a lot of organizational development information to bring back. Would you agree with that?

B (17:20)

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And that's because all of a sudden, in the midst of busyness at work, all of a sudden the co workers have the permission to kind of stop and breathe and say what they believe and what they had on their mind already for a long time, but didn't find the right moment to voice all these things.

A (17:42)

So what habits define the most effective leader, would you say then? Maybe that might be our last question.

B (17:49)

Yeah, but that's actually a good way to put it. Right. So it's all about leaders who are, who are willing to change. They're characterized by three things. They say, I go if I want to change. Then I'm the one who really needs to kind of take the lead in that and kind of take the first step and then we go, you know, we need to get the people around us to be part of this and work on something. So I need to change something that's important to me but also to the people around me like empowerment or thinking strategically and these aspects get their input, listen to people. So that's we go, we go together and then once that is organized, let's go. Then it's all about disciplined execution of the action plan, of the change plan, of the involvement of the co workers and be ready to measure how progress is taking shape. So I go, we go, let's go.

A (18:47)

That's nice. I love that. That's great. So what's one leadership question every manager or leader should ask themselves?

B (18:56)

Yes. The best leadership question every leader should ask their dark reports is what can I do to change to be a better leader for you? And they will be amazed the valuable impact that they're going to be getting and the changes they can easily implement. What can I do to be a better leader for you? So first off they get all that input, but secondly, it also opens the door for the leader to go back and say, okay, since we're talking about me, let's talk about you. So how can you be better in working with me? So it really starts that change process on every level. But you know, start with yourself first. Lead to change.

A (19:41)

Right. And I think another good point is that when you ask what can I do better as a leader, I think it brings back home to the leader that people like to be managed differently and they have to be a lot more agile in the way they approach people and what kind of support they want. Yeah, yeah.

B (20:02)

Leadership is a customized business, right?

A (20:04)

Yeah, right, right. Very much so. So very interesting. So where can people get a hold.

B (20:08)

Of you so they can get all the book through Amazon. That's very easy. Right. Triple Win Leadership Coaching and globalcoachgroup.com is our website and if they want to email me, they can email me@coachlobalcoachgroup.com and then we'll be happy to see what people have to ask. And a lot of resources we also provide to people that's available in our library that people can easily access. So good way to start.

A (20:37)

Great Will, thank you so much. Most interesting. I'll make sure that they have your email in the notes so that people can get and contact you. Thank you.

B (20:47)

Perfect.

A (20:48)

That was a real pleasure.

B (20:49)

Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Excellent Executive Coaching Podcast. You can subscribe to all Future podcasts@excellent executive coaching.com join us each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris CEO mastermind, use the contact form@excellentexecutivecoaching.com.