Podcast Summary:

Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft
Episode 410: The Living Organization – Coaching Leaders to Unlock Human Potential with Norman Wolfe
Host: Dr. Katrina Burrus, PhD, MCC
Guest: Norman Wolfe
Date: December 2, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the concept of “The Living Organization,” a transformative leadership paradigm introduced by Norman Wolfe. Wolfe, author and leadership thinker, discusses the shift from treating organizations as mechanistic, efficiency machines to viewing them as dynamic, living entities. With host Dr. Katrina Burrus, he breaks down how this new approach changes leadership, culture, strategy, and the development of human potential in organizations facing today’s rapid change and complexity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Mechanistic to Living Organizations

[00:05–06:31]

• Traditional Paradigm:

  • Organizations were historically seen as machines—inputs go in, outputs come out, with efficiency as the ultimate goal.
  • People were treated as components or cogs in the machine to optimize productivity.
  • Leadership was about designing, managing, and fine-tuning the machine.

• Problems of the Old Model:

  • Lacks innovation, adaptability, creativity, and resilience.
  • "If what you really want is pure efficiency, that's the best way to do it. The problem with that is in today's world, we need more than efficiency." – Norman Wolfe [02:42]
  • 70% of companies fail to execute strategies; 70% of employees are disengaged, indicating a flawed paradigm.

• Living Organization Paradigm:

  • Think of organizations as living beings with unique personalities, needs, and potential for growth.
  • Leaders’ role shifts from managing machinery to nurturing the organization’s capability, resilience, and creativity.
  • “The goal is to have the organization be highly adaptive, collectively highly adaptive, highly resilient, highly creative.” – Norman Wolfe [04:45]
  • Compares developing organizational culture to raising a child: fostering autonomy, creativity, and adaptability.

2. Culture and Subcultures in Organizations

[06:31–11:24]

• Organizational Persona:

  • Departments develop unique traits (sales as outgoing; finance as detail-oriented).
  • “The department itself has its own Persona, its own personality, its own belief systems.” – Norman Wolfe [07:54]

• Collective Culture’s Influence:

  • Sub-units (departments) adopt behaviors from both their direct group and the larger organization.
  • Example: HP’s "HP Way" unified diverse departments under a shared cultural ethos, which persisted even as people changed.

• Scalability of Living Principles:

  • Living organization thinking is scalable: from individuals, to teams, to departments, to entire organizations.
  • Leaders can approach departments as “individuals” within the larger collective to simplify management and culture-building.

3. Driving Organizational Change Through Context and Behavior

[12:43–16:42]

• Case Study – Agricultural Company:

  • Organization shifting from commodity trading (focused on price and arbitrage) to relationship-based models (farmer-focused, longer-term).
  • Wolfe advises framing departments as two “people”—merchandisers and terminal operations—then defining the desired behaviors and narratives for both.

• Power of Context:

  • “Outcomes is a function of behaviors, but behaviors is driven by context.” – Norman Wolfe [15:39]
  • Leaders should focus on creating the narrative and context that supports desired behaviors, then use “scaffolding” (systems, incentives) to reinforce them.
  • Cultural change starts by shaping context, then letting that filter down to individual and collective behavioral changes.

4. The HP Way and Culture as Energy

[16:43–19:10]

• HP Way:
  • Defined by operational guidelines, freedom within boundaries, and a strong focus on innovation and customer orientation.
  • “HP way was a field of energy. Nobody told me what the HP way was—sort of like, I stepped into this collective field and by osmosis, I kind of picked up what the HP way was all about.” – Norman Wolfe [18:18]
  • Organizational culture is often experienced as an energy field shaped by stories, histories, and shared behaviors.

5. Aligning Individual and Organizational Goals

[19:10–21:22]

• From Top-Down to Contribution Agreements:
  • Old-style alignment involved cascading objectives downward.
  • New approach: invite individuals to offer how they can contribute to organizational goals (“contribution agreements”).
  • “I’m going to invite you to tell me how can you contribute to it.” – Norman Wolfe [20:34]
  • Leaders must assess the maturity of individuals/teams before giving greater agency and autonomy.

6. Redefining Leadership & Combating Loneliness

[21:22–24:14]

• Leader’s Loneliness:

  • The traditional, top-down paradigm isolates leaders—everyone waits for instructions, and the leader bears all the burdens.
  • “I get it. I'm shooting myself in the foot by my own leadership style.” – CEO quoted by Norman Wolfe [21:36]
  • Emphasizes developing mature, capable employees so leadership responsibility is shared.

• Real-World Example:

  • Haier Corporation embraces decentralized, customer-connected micro-enterprises empowering people at every level.

7. Norman Wolfe’s Books & Leadership Development

[24:14–25:59]

• Living Organization Trilogy:
  • Book 1: Lays out the theory of living organizations.
  • Book 2: “Leading the Living Organization” (upcoming): Parable format detailing key leadership skills (context-setting, people development, building community, service orientation, etc.).
    • Storyline follows a CEO receiving advice during crises and transformations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The basic principle I said is a collective of people that come together for a common purpose give birth to a living being.” – Norman Wolfe [06:33]
• “The HP way was a field of energy. Nobody told me what the HP way was… I stepped into this collective field and by osmosis, I kind of picked up what the HP way was all about.” – Norman Wolfe [18:18]
• “Outcomes is a function of behaviors, but behaviors is driven by context.” – Norman Wolfe [15:39]
• “I get it. I’m shooting myself in the foot by my own leadership style.” – Quoted CEO [21:36]
• “In today’s world, you want people to have a sense of agency, but you want them to have a sense of agency centered around the goals of the organization.” – Norman Wolfe [20:01]
• “Imagine leaders who focus on… developing the maturity... now you’ve got people you can have conversations with, just like I can have a conversation with my 35-year-old daughter now as an adult, not like when she was 12 years old.” – Norman Wolfe [23:04]

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:05] Introduction to mechanistic vs. living organizations
• [04:45] Shifting the leader’s role in the new paradigm
• [07:54] Departments as living collectives
• [13:16] Real-world case study: Shifting from commodity to relationship business
• [15:39] Context and culture as drivers of behavior
• [18:18] The HP Way and the energetic nature of culture
• [20:34] Contribution agreements and shifting alignment
• [21:36] The loneliness of leadership and leadership style
• [24:20] Overview of Wolfe’s books and leadership development

How to Contact Norman Wolfe

• Website: quantumleaders.com
• LinkedIn: Norman Wolfe
• Email: nwolf@quantumleaders.com

Episode Tone & Takeaways

Norman Wolfe and Dr. Katrina Burrus dive into leadership wisdom with a warm, reflective, and practical tone. The conversation is rich with stories, metaphors (e.g., raising children, the HP Way), and actionable insights for leaders and coaches looking to nurture organizations for adaptability, innovation, and long-term success.

Takeaway:
To thrive in today’s world, leaders must move beyond machines and see their organizations as dynamic, living systems—fostering growth, agency, culture, and community at every level.