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Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft.
EEC 415: How to Build a Successful International Law Practice with Xavier Oberson
00:23:41
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- [00:05]
A
Hello, I'm Dr. Katrina Viges, and this podcast is part of a series on excellent international leadership. So I hope you will enjoy it. We're reissuing it. And it explains how these powerful leaders what they credit their success to enjoy. And happy holidays. I have the immense pleasure today to interview Xavier Auberson. He is senior partner of Auberson Law Firm. Welcome. So, Maitre Xavier Auberson, tell us what you attribute your success. You have an incredible success as an expert, a fiscal expert.
- [00:52]
B
I think it's a long process. It's not something that comes one day and you are designed as an expert. It's a slow and long process. And I think it really started with the university where I was a teaching assistant. And there you have to be very focused on accuracy and study the rules of law. But at the same time, you need to be able to explain in a very simple way to young students or to the public. So I think it's a very good system to promote, let's say, your knowledge at the same time and the faculty the possibility to express your knowledge in a very simple way.
- [01:32]
A
So you express in a very simple way, you're able to simplify.
- [01:37]
B
Yes, that's what people say usually, and I think it's true. But it comes in a very long process. Then the second aspect also is that, as you know, my father was the founder of the firm at the time. It was, you know, one man show. He was alone then two, three people, and he decided he was one of the first, I think, to have this idea to focus on one aspect of the law, which is tax. So I would say I also follow this idea, but I develop it to maybe a much broader and much more international level. So I would say the combination of these two, the university and the study and the writing of articles, conferences, and at the same time to develop and to follow the path and develop in a more international way. I would say this area, if you put these two together, this is one explanation I could give at least.
- [02:30]
A
So teaching law and being able to simplify at the university and at the.
- [02:33]
B
Same, expanding your law expertise to international audience and clientele.
- [02:40]
A
Yes, but on the other hand, you're also extremely well known. So. So what kind of promotion have you done?
- [02:47]
B
So this. I did not have a plan. I never used communication agent or anything like that. I did it in a very, I would say, pragmatic way, which is the way I use in general. But frankly, maybe I did a lot of conferences because I like, as you know, I'm also a musician So I like entertainment, I like to make concerts, so I like to make conferences, I like to teach. And in a way, I think these three music teaching and conferences for me is exactly the same. It's like a show, but the show, sometimes it's very intellectual, so you have to really pass a message or you have to bring people to another level with the music. So for me, it's maybe very strange, but it's all the same approach. So maybe this explains, because it's true that, for example, some students, they tell me even today that they were influenced by the course, they wanted to go further sometimes. I received postcards from students that recently was accepted to a prominent US university. So when I received that, I feel maybe at least I gave a sort of, let's say, energy direction.
- [03:59]
A
Energy Inspiration.
- [04:01]
B
Inspiration, maybe, yes. At least I do it in a very humble and honest way. I really try to do it my best, but not in an organized way at all, frankly.
- [04:11]
A
So you like to entertain, though?
- [04:13]
B
Yes, I do, I do, absolutely. I like to entertain, but with a content. For example, when I make conference, I can use jokes, I can use anecdotes, I use a lot of anecdotes. Sometimes people, they laugh, but at the same time, inside the anecdote, there's teaching, there's something that people keep in mind, and then they learn something, you know?
- [04:35]
A
I see. So it's also educational.
- [04:37]
B
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
- [04:38]
A
So I can't resist to ask you, as a specialist and expert, what are the key challenges Switzerland has and some of their disadvantages today?
- [04:47]
B
Absolutely. I think if Switzerland play, let's say, well, go in the right direction within the next few years, there's a great potential. I'm pretty optimistic, in fact, for Switzerland, because there were a few votes that could really be detrimental to Switzerland. The vote on the lump sum tax, the vote on the inheritance tax. But the people were really, I think, mature, and they really voted in a very positive way, which gave a good sign, I would say, to the global community.
- [05:17]
A
So just explain for our listeners that they voted against an inheritance tax.
- [05:22]
B
Yes, against a federal interim tax of 20%, which would be just added to the global tax system, which is already pretty high that we have in Switzerland. So they voted clearly against, and they voted also clearly against the abolition of this lump sum special tax regime for foreigners that want to, let's say, rotai or not, work in Switzerland. So it shows that there's a maturity and that the people are now conscious that the competitive position of Switzerland is not granted forever. And we really have to do something. But if I take for example, the global system that we have, and in fact, I think one aspect which will become more and more attractive for Switzerland is simply the legal system we have, and also the judicial system. People don't really realize, or they start to realize. When you invest abroad, maybe it's very cheap, maybe it's beautiful, you have the sea, it's wonderful. But then suddenly there's a problem and you go to court, and then it becomes a mess because the court may be not reliable or it's too complicated. You lose your case, it takes years, and then you lose your investment, or you just want to get rid of your investment. This is not the case in Switzerland. You invest in Switzerland, at least you have a strong, independent legal system. You go to court, you can be sure you may win or lose, but you have, I would say, highly competent judges, independent. And this, I think we should promote more data as a value. It's a value which will become more and more important in the future. Also, the second aspect is that our legal system is getting more and more complex. But still, you know, the tax code is 100 pages and you can speak with the administration, you can call them, they will give you an answer, and a fair, reasonable answer. All this makes a very attractive and fair and clear system. So this is in fact also a value, especially in the world of today, which is much more aggressive, much more dangerous in a way, and uncertain. So the certainty also of the system of Switzerland is a very strong value.
- [07:31]
A
But what do you mean by dangerous?
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B
Dangerous in the sense that there are some security problems. Frankly speaking, the law changes all the time. You can have political change, for example, we see very well in countries, even European countries. But suddenly the new government that comes changes everything and moves from right to left, from left to right. This is not realistic and it will not happen in Switzerland.
- [07:55]
A
Okay, interesting. So tell us a bit more about you. When was the most difficult time in your career and how did you overcome it?
- [08:04]
B
Yes, the most difficult time, I would say, was when I left. I finished my PhD and then I was starting to develop more and more the firm, the law firm. But there was a moment when it was not very clear and I didn't really know what to do. And I was sort of unhappy. But what I did, and in my view, it's maybe one of the best decision I took in my life. I went to Harvard Law School and I was accepted. And then, frankly, I can see this was a turning point because I went to Harvard Law School. I was nobody there. So I'm like, nobody knows me. You know, you are a Swiss guy with people from all over the world. Not somebody from Geneva, you know, where people know you already because you went to school in Geneva. People know you. You are in Harvard Law School. You are one among others. You are very smart people from all over the planet working all night long. And for me it was a shock and it's probably one of the best professional decision I took, if I take it from here. Because I met people from all over the world. Some of them are still friends. For example, Yoshid, who is Japanese professor at the University of Tokyo. Now David Rosenblum, who is at nyu, was my professor at Harvard, still very close friend with him. And it opens your mind. We had classes like AIDS and the law, or woman discrimination and the law, these kind of courses said, but what is that? What are you going to teach us? And then it's fantastic. It opens your mind, it gives you a sense of criticism. You don't take anything for granted. You argue, you develop argumentation, and you become also much more humble because you meet some people who are very, very smart, very, very quick and who still are very nice people and very interesting people. So I think I came back from Harvard and I changed completely. My father was still in the firm, I was then working with him. But then I said to him, okay, now, now we are going to change completely. I mean, we continue to develop tax, but we do it in a much more open international level. So this was the turning point for me.
- [10:16]
A
So how do you develop the international aspect?
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B
Yeah, there are many ways. Maybe it's a combination of these ways. One way that most people do in the low area, I would say, is to have contact with partners of good, highly reputable law firm all over the world. Like typically Anglo Saxon firms, American firms, British firms, French firms. So that's one way you have contact with them and then you start to develop cases together. I did that a little bit, but not so much because of time constraint. What I did more was to make conferences. I published a lot of articles, I published books. And then eventually people read your article, they invite you to, to talk, I don't know, in Milan, in Paris, London, New York. Then that's another way. But this way is the hardest way, I would say, because you really need to work. I mean, I remember I was spending my holidays and maybe this has cost my marriage if I think about it, because in some holidays in the past, I would stay in my room and I would be typing books and articles while everybody, including My kids were at the sea. So this as a price, I should be very clear.
- [11:28]
A
Excellent. And so did you have an aha moment, Another aha moment in your career which you sort of shifted gears?
- [11:37]
B
Yes, well, exactly. Maybe there's one moment at least. This is a story that sometime comes to my mind because when I went to Harvard Law School and I was married, I already had one kid and I had a second one there, can you imagine? So I was, I remember in the. With one. And then a newborn child can imagine in a very small apartment in Harvard, which is called Peabody Terrace. For people who know, it's like Avancher in Geneva. I mean, it's really where the students live. It's like a small apartment, but it has a lot of charm. And then my idea was to stay in America for a while and maybe enter into a law firm after my. My LLM and the tax programmer of Harvard. Then I received a phone call. We didn't have mobile phone, if you think about it. I received a phone call of this gray, this phone call in the kitchen of the apartment. And it was Professor Knapp from University of Geneva, who was my professor, is the one with whom I did my PhD. And he calls me and he said, hello, Xavier, how are you? I just wanted to tell you that there's an opening of a. Not professor, but lecturer, to become lecturer in administrative law. At the time at the University of Geneva, we thought about you, would you be interested? And in one second I felt it here, you know, in my body, honestly. And I said yes. And I closed the phone. It took me one second. I didn't even think about it. I knew it was the right decision. So some people call that intuition, you know, And I absolutely follow that. And when I look backwards, it's the best decision I took because it changed completely. So then I had to go back to Geneva, not to stay in America. I had to start. It was a little lectureship of two hours a week. But then of course you are on the track at the university. Then I became professor. And of course this made really a new path, a complete change. And you can call it this moment, this phone call.
- [13:43]
A
How did it change? You told that it taught you how to make difficult concepts really easy. But was there any other aspect of it? Was it also credibility that you were.
- [13:53]
B
Yes, yes, for sure, exactly. For example, I think because you are a professor at the university, which is a sort of certification, at least of a minimum of accuracy in what you say, or at least when you write something, there's a responsibility because things could be quoted for or against you. So I think in comparison to another lawyer who can really go to court and argue, when I go to court, I argue, and I like to do that. But I really try to make it sure that everything I say at least is confirmed by a source, by case law. So there's a sort of, let's say, certification. And because of that, some cases, I would say, like legal opinion I received are for sure asked as a mandate to me because they want to have a professor to give this legal opinion.
- [14:44]
A
Do you also advise the government, the Swiss government?
- [14:47]
B
Yeah, I do from time to time, even sometime for drafts of legislation or also I was one of the negotiators of the double taxation treaty with the United States. So yes. There's also this side, this I like very much. Because then you need both skills. You need the skills of like a professor to be really clear on the law, but you need the skill of a negotiator, which is more like a lawyer skill. So then you need to put the two skills together and maybe the third one to be a little entertainer. Because if you want to negotiate well, you need to entertain the people with you. So you put all together and that's a cocktail. A good cocktail. Yeah.
- [15:26]
A
So what excites you about what you do today? What, what is takaitsu more than other things?
- [15:31]
B
Yeah, exactly. What I like today more and more is fact is that my profession as a tax expert becomes more and more and back. In fact, being a lawyer, sometimes people, they say we are like fiscalists, but in fact, I'm not. And I'm less and less a fiscalist and I'm more and more a lawyer. Because what's happening today is that tax law has become a prominent center of attention, of focus. So it's getting very, very complex. It changes all the time. So people now come to you and they say, please help me. You know, I don't declare this and that. I mean, this is not. They don't even need a lawyer for that. I mean, because if nothing is declared, what can you do? But they need still to understand and just to comply with the law. It's become so complex than it was. So this aspect of my job I like very much because then it's again more like education and helping people to comply in the most pleasant way possible. Because this area is very dry. When I say to people in dinner that I'm a tax expert, people look at me. Ah, oh my God. They look very seriously at me. But behind this there's a Lot of room for entertaining and for something interesting. It's like playing with a complex game, but playing still.
- [16:59]
A
So what's the best business advice you've received?
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B
I would say there's one advice I've received from this Professor Knapp, who is really a key person to me. And it's very interesting because, and I call it now the, the Knapp advice or something like that. He said you make a legal opinion. So they ask you a question, you analyze the law and then you give an answer. But you should always do something at the end of your work. You have finished the product, but then you ask the question again, you read the answer and you should say to yourself, but does it make any sense? And if it does, it means more or less it's okay.
- [17:45]
A
But.
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B
But if that doesn't make any sense, it means you should go back and you should really think about it. This is one advice for lawyers, I would say, because sometimes you read very technical legal opinion and really to go back it takes a lot of time because you need to criticize every legal basis and opinion. So it's very difficult. But this approach makes a lot of sense to me because it can help you to go into totally purely intellectual solution which in fact do not make any sense in reality. So that's one, maybe a very specific advice that means a lot to me. Another one was always to stay very self critical. So never take for granted what you do. Always keep a sense of leeway, maybe of looking backwards. I do that from time to time. For example, it's a difficult negotiation. I see we are getting nowhere. So sometimes you just step a little bit back. The music for example, helped me a lot on this. So you step back, you look all around, you try to figure out who is saying this. And then as if you were looking from the wall, you know, you look at the situation from the wall, just for a little while maybe, and then you go back inside and you can get to a better understanding. Otherwise you get too much personally involved. So that's the second advice, which is not to get too personally involved. And this I've transformed into this idea to step outside almost of the room or to look at it from above. Music helps, you say music helps a lot. Because in music you do that all the time. Especially in jazz and in rock. It's very important for me because when you play in a band, you cannot always be the leader. You cannot make a solo for one hour. Nobody will listen to you. You, you need to let other people play and be in front and still, at the same time, you should play that, it's in harmony, and you should even help the person to go even further and higher. So that's a very wise system in life, in fact, I think, very interesting.
- [19:53]
A
So of all the habits you have, if you have any, which one do you think has been part of your success?
- [20:02]
B
Maybe it's a surprising one, but it's the fact that I play a musical instrument every day since more than 30 years. And when, I mean every day, it's really every day. Sometimes it can be five minutes. But maybe this has brought to me a lot, I think, because when you practice music and improvise, it's good for memory, because you need to memorize scales, chords. So I try to learn new things all the time. So I think it's good for memory. And there are books, apparently, about it. It's good for, let's say, it's like meditation. For me, it's like meditation. It gets you outside of your world and it's a different one. It's good for modesty, because you are never good enough. I will never be good enough people. I was in the Montreux festival last week and I saw amazing musician. So for me, everybody has his own way. But for me, that's one explanation. But. But it's not an obligation, it's a need. I mean, when I travel, I take it with me. I practice every day and I love it. If I don't, maybe I would even feel bad. So maybe that's one explanation. I don't know. For what it's worth.
- [21:10]
A
And for a young lawyer that wants to become independent, what would you suggest to them?
- [21:15]
B
I would suggest to start trying to make a difference, because there are many lawyers, there are many good lawyers. So first of all, go abroad. And this I tell to all my students. So go maybe six months, one year, either in a foreign law firm, anywhere it is. It could be in China, it could be in America, whatever. But to go abroad or to study in a foreign university, just six months, one year, to open your mind, to meet other people. That's the first advice that I would give. And the second one is then to make a little difference. So start to write articles, even if it's not so long, just write something, you will attract attention. Maybe today. And this, I'm not an expert. Maybe today you should be more also on the social media, because this is the new way where people will look at you. So that would be the second advice. And the third advice is any case you get, whatever it is, do it the best you can. And this is my mother, by the way, that told me that. She said, whatever you do, try to do it the best. And I did that. In fact, I remember by the way, once there was a banker that came to me. I didn't have the name of the client. It was a strange case, a bit complicated. The guy was not so nice, not so interesting. But I did it the best I could. And then suddenly I discovered the client was behind came to see me and it still is a prominent figure. So that's one example. Most people would have said, ah, but I don't know, it seems to be a little thing, not interesting. I would just do it quickly. I did it very well and then it became a very important client of mine. So that's one advice. So free advice, I would say.
- [23:00]
A
Wonderful. We'll get a lot of chance to have three advice. We're coming to an end to our podcast. I want to thank you for your time and for sharing your knowledge. Thank you very much.
- [23:09]
B
Thank you so much. Thank you. It was very interesting.
- [23:12]
C
Thank you for listening to the Excellent Executive Coaching Podcast. You can subscribe to all Future podcasts@excellentexecutivecoaching.com join us each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris CEO mastermind, use the contact form@excellentexecutivecoaching.com.