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Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft.
EEC 418: Transforming Resistant Leaders Through Embodied Coaching, with Julius Lassalle
00:24:16
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- [00:05]
A
What happens if we have a client that is particularly resistant to conceptual or thinking process? Well, you got a shift approach and maybe use somatic intelligence. So let's listen to the expert in the field, Julius LaSalle, who uses embodied leadership. Welcome to the excellent executive coaching podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Katrina Burius, and today we have Julius Lasalle. Julius, welcome.
- [00:43]
B
Yeah, welcome, Katrina. And thanks for having me on your show. I'm really happy to be here. I'm a big fan of your show. So great to be a guest.
- [00:51]
A
Well, I'm delighted to have you as a guest. And let's get started. My first question to you is, how did your experience with leadership frustration lead you to develop embodied leadership? Explain embodied leadership.
- [01:07]
B
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I really do think that every leader has experienced some sorts of frustration in their lives. And from my experience, there are two sources of frustration. The first source of frustration might be that people do not dare to come out what's inside them. So they have a goal that they want to pursue. They have certain values that are important to them. And sometimes for them, it's literally difficult to embody them. And that creates frustration. I cannot be my authentic self as a leader. That can be like one source of frustration. The other source of frustration could be that I exactly know what I want to do. I have the energy to let it out, but I continuously bump into obstacles because somehow I do not get in contact, like with the people outside. They do not follow me. And that frustrates me. So that's what I call, like the two sides of the leadership model or of the leadership medal. One is the inside perspective of me, of my own values and goals, and the other one is the perspective of the outside of my environment, of stakeholders, of their expectations. I mean, to answer it very shortly, what is embodied leadership? It's actually the to think body and mind in leadership, which is like an important tool. If I work with my coaches, to assess with them, if their body. So what do they feel? What does their intuition tell them? What should they do in a certain situation? And their mind. Yeah, what is like their rational solution that they have in mind? And if that's synced, they are embodied in that way.
- [02:48]
A
Okay, so if I understand correctly, one, the frustration is they do not dare to be their authentic self or they don't have the followership that's required. So that's the leadership registration. And the embodied leadership is the perfect Embodied leadership is when everything's aligned, their feelings and what they want. And the rationale is that correct?
- [03:12]
B
Yes, exactly. That's how it is. And like, I mean, I'm. I can give you a very practical example from one of my coaching cases, if you're interested in that. So let's say I distinguish between inside and outside, but as usually I start with the inside. Yeah. Because that's where your sparkle comes from, and that's where your energy actually, like, sits at your excitement. So I start with the people's excitement. I founded a life school which speaks about aliveness and excitement that is inside you. So that is usually the. The starting point. I was working with a manager, and she was working. Actually, her role consisted of two different sort of sub roles. On the one hand side, she was an internal OD consultant, and on the other hand side, she was an HR leader. So she was also on that administrative part. And like, her excitement was really was on the OD part and asking her, like, organizational development. Thank you. Yeah, on the organizational development part, coaching internal teams. So she was frustrated because looking at where she was able to spend your time on. On which role, she spent nearly almost all of her time on being an administrative HR lead. And that's like, one part where the excitement comes into play that people understand. Where does my frustration come? What is the part of the role that I'm not able to embody, to live up to, to display? So I'm working with clients on how to overcome that. That frustration. That's what they want.
- [04:56]
A
Yes, exactly. So when their passion, they're not doing their passion, there's a dichotomy between they're doing something that frustrates them rather than excites them. Okay, so what role does somatic intelligence play in helping executives? What do you call somatic intelligence?
- [05:17]
B
Well, in simple words, I would say being connected to your body. That's somatic intelligence. I mean, if you look at leadership research, what makes a leader successful in the long term? I distinguish, like, between, like three. Three things. Three capabilities or capacities. The first one is like the capacity to recreate. To be healthy. Yeah, to be healthy in your body, and of course, also like to be mentally healthy. So for that, you need to be connected to yourself. Yeah, you need to be connected. You need to take care for yourself, for your body, for your mental issues. That's the first one. The second success factor is for a leader to be connected. One of the main reasons why leaders derail is because they are not connected to important stakeholders, like, to their teams. They are not able to create relationships, good, solid relationships, to make people follow them. Speaking about that again and for that, for creating relationships. Again, some people call it somatic intelligence. Some people call it emotional intelligence is key. And the last success factor is being able to really authentically lead, to embody the type of leadership that you are, to live up to your own values, like, as a leader. So I believe that that aspect of you can call it somatic intelligence or something else, but, like, being connected with yourself, with others, and with the situation is key for leadership success.
- [06:56]
A
Okay, so connected with yourself and the situation. So you said first one is to be healthy. You said recreate. I don't know what you mean by recreate. What are you recreating? You said that just before you said healthy. So I just.
- [07:12]
B
Yeah, to me, it's connected to two different aspects. One is the aspect of health.
- [07:17]
A
So.
- [07:18]
B
Yeah, yeah. To be healthy. And the other aspect is an aspect of being connected to your own curiosity. It's that aspect of creativity. So being able to reinvent yourself is like, part of that competency.
- [07:37]
A
Okay, so it's to recreate yourself. Then you said also the second is to be connected to the stakeholders and have followership. And the third is to be authentically to lead according to your values. So that's what you. In globe and somatic intelligence.
- [07:56]
B
Yeah, Well, I would say, like, for that, somatic intelligence is, like, necessary. Enable. Yeah. Being able to do so. So, like, when I speak with leaders. Yeah. They are not. In the first place, they are not necessarily interested. They're not interested in somatic intelligence. Yeah, usually. So they are interested in being, like, a successful leader. And so I'm talking more about, okay, what capabilities do you have to develop in order to be a successful leader? And then you have somewhat. Sometimes then you open a door to walk in and speak about the three competencies and what is necessary for them to develop. And then you have, like, your foot in the door, kind of.
- [08:39]
A
I see. Okay. So how would you qualify the difference between somatic intelligence and emotional intelligence?
- [08:47]
B
That's a good question, Katrina. I would say they are probably very closely connected. I think the aspect that is important. I can tell you what aspect is important to me in that. Because starting too quickly with leaders speaking about emotions, you always bring them also into their head to a certain, well, what is my emotion? Like, what do I feel like at the moment? So my starting point in that sort of examination is rather the body. And what do I sense at the moment? What are my bodily sensations? And if you start with that, you are rather covering something that I would call somatics. I mean, that's my Term and my, my language.
- [09:33]
A
I see. So but it's very interesting because you're saying that maybe when you talk about emotional intelligence, they tend to be go to the rational while somatic. You pull them down into the emotion, into what they feel, into their body.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah. Let's say if you ask leaders what do you feel at the moment, it triggers. I'm thinking about what I feel, but I go out of my body. So to start really with the sense, like what do you sense in your body at the moment? The is for me like a good starting point which you then can, can translate. And sometimes it is also important. It's today I had a coaching actually. So my coach, she was speaking about, well, I'm anxious in a certain situation. And to distinguish anxiety from excitement is a very interesting in a coaching situation because from a bodily perspective they show up in. It's pretty much the same. Yeah. The patterns of arousal in your body. And so not to be too quickly in your mind and to assess what is the emotion but like really to start with your senses.
- [10:47]
A
Okay, thank you for that clarification. So how can coaches use body based interventions to break through with difficult leaders? So how can it apply to difficult leaders? I'm especially interested given that. Talk about brilliant jerks.
- [11:08]
B
Well, first of all, the coachee is also part of the situation for me. So I do not have like a one size fits all. Yeah, I think that's important. Speaking also like bodily interventions, I think you can start with like something very easy and most people like get it and that's like to sync your mind with your body, with your intuition. And what often helps also like with brilliant jerks is that you have a good rationale behind it. Because I mean there's a lot of scientific research why intuition is a very good source of wisdom and making them understand that this is not just something we sit here and sense and feel, but that there's also like a scientific background in what we are doing here. So like I'm getting to that level, speaking a little bit also like about science. What's in there? So if they understand like the added value, why they should go into that little rabbit hole, maybe.
- [12:19]
A
Well, let's say the emotions, feelings, the intuition. Is that okay?
- [12:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
And how they can leverage their intuition more positively. Is that what you're saying?
- [12:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean also don't push them. Right. Like some people need time. So I think that's where at least in the way that I do coaching, a very strong relational aspect comes into play. Like I'm not pushing any one of my clients. And if they feel that they cannot connect, it's hard for them to connect with themselves, to their self sensations, to their emotions. Like at the moment, like we'll find like a different way around. Like I don't have an expectation on my clients that they are not supposed to perform something. So it's really building like an authentic relationship being interested in them and being interested in, in their perspective and their problems that they have in their business. That's a way to connect and then we can see where that leads us from there.
- [13:21]
A
How would you qualify the difference in approach when you have a very difficult leader or a leader that is easier to work with?
- [13:30]
B
I wouldn't call it difficult leaders. I don't have difficult leaders usually. I mean let's say. But if we take these two distinctions, I think from a coaching aspect and from a coaching perspective, not going to say you should be cautious in both, both cases. But like let's say if you have a leader. So I'm also, I'm always aware like how's the leader building like their relationship with me as a coach. Yeah. So if there's something, what you said like easy to work with. It's something that I would probably integrate in the coaching process and provide that like also as a feedback because it might be related to the situation of the leader with their direct reports or with their stakeholders. Yeah. If someone is very difficult sort of in that words, so like not agreeing to anything that I'm saying but like always being like the opposite opinion, I would like turn that and bring that into the coaching situation and provide that as a feedback and say like how? Well, what is your experience like with. With other people? Like do you face like similar situations? And then I think you have something to work with.
- [14:48]
A
So two very interesting things. One, the latest is that you're a mirror of their behavior so you reflect back how they come across to you so they can integrate that perception. And then you also said that it's important to not have expectations. You know, you first create the link with the person and that confidence with your client and don't expect them to be anything one way or the other. You let it come through by the confidence you have with your clients that you built with your clients, in fact.
- [15:25]
B
Yes, absolutely. And I mean we know that both from therapy research and from coaching research is if there's like one factor, one success factor in leadership and executive coaching, it's the quality of the relationship between you and your coachee that really like sticks out so but like, yes. And building a relationship, of course, doesn't mean saying yes all the time. Right? I mean, that's not what I mean. Building the relationship means using myself also, like, as an authentic tool that is present in that relationship between the coachee and myself. So of course, like, I'm part of relationship. Building means also, wow, that's not my perspective. And I'm seeing that differently. That kind of difficult leadership situation. But in general, like, yeah, building the relationship, I'd say like, is really is key.
- [16:19]
A
Yes. Okay, so how do you identify when traditional coaching approaches aren't working? What do you mean by traditional coaches? And then the second part of the question is, what are their symptoms that it's not working for you?
- [16:36]
B
I mean, looking at a lot of approaches to coaching, they rely quite heavily on reflection and I would say, like, on the mind to come up to reflect on. I mean, that's also can be deep work to reflect on myself, where do I come from, what are my drivers, and so on. I think at a certain point in time that might not be enough. And I think for me, the key point here is the topic of consistency. Is there consistency between what a person is saying and what the person embodies, like, in a certain situation? And if it's inconsistent, you need to. Does not always mean that you need to talk then about it and put the person like on the spot. But this is, I think, very important, like that consistency or inconsistency between body and mind. And I think then you need to have a tool set as a coach to deal with that. And therefore, I believe embodiment and embodied leadership is quite important.
- [17:40]
A
Okay. For our listeners. Give us an example when you can perceive that the embodiment is not aligned with what they're saying.
- [17:47]
B
I had a situation within my coaching with an executive. He was talking about like a fairly difficult situation. At the same time, there was a sense of. He was smiling, like, a little bit, speaking about the situation. And I was like, I didn't understand. And so it became part of our coaching process. So I made him aware of that and we were able to work with that.
- [18:12]
A
Okay.
- [18:12]
B
And like, what was behind? I mean, to speak a little bit about it, I think he was not really, really very clear on his type of leadership. So what type of leader did he want to be? So it helped him a lot to clarify his leadership values and how we. Or he wants to embody them.
- [18:31]
A
But there was a discrepancy between what he felt, maybe pain or something, and he was smiling. So there's a discrepancy what he said.
- [18:40]
B
And what he embodied or displayed. Yeah, he was. He was smiling by speaking about. Speaking about a very difficult situation. So it didn't fit. So.
- [18:50]
A
Right, right. So how do you dress that differently than a traditional coaching?
- [18:56]
B
That's a big question. What I'm working a lot with is I'm trying to assess with my client what are different aspects of a situation. So there might be an aspect of feeling joy about something and at the same time I'm feeling frustration or anger in a certain situation. And I think where the body helps you. What I do with my clients, I really let them embody both aspects of the situation. So I let them stand up and how does it look like if you're angry? So they embody one aspect. What do you feel in your body? How does your body feel? Where does it feel tensed and so on. And then I work with the other aspect of the situation. Where do you feel joy or excitement? And. And using the body creates something that is like a holistic experience, I would say, for the client, which is very important for our sense making. And that's again then the consistency in my perspective between my body and my mind.
- [20:07]
A
Yeah. So you really highlight where they feel the different emotions or frustrations in their body, but by doing that, you help them recognize the emotion. Even in a situation where they're distracted, if they have that same body reaction, they know that basically the emotion and the feeling behind it, not just intellectually.
- [20:32]
B
Yes. And sometimes, I mean, usually like a lot of workplaces are not necessarily the places where people value to. To see a lot of emotions. Yeah. So many companies like, please let the emotions out. So that's something that leaders like, hear a lot. And at the same time, if you hold them back, they make you. Well, they make you sick at a certain point in time. And helping leaders also in the coaching setting to get in touch with their emotions and to act them out. How does it look like to. I have also like a background in bioenergetics, which is like a body therapy. So to let them act out their anger. I mean, that's not what they can do in like in the leadership situation, but it helps them that the emotions become more present and we can then work on that. How could that look like in a reasonable way in your work setting? For example?
- [21:31]
A
So you interpret the emotion that they've sort of pushed down because they can't show in the work environment and a strong emotion. And then you work with that emotion to sort of figure things out how they can better use that emotion in a more structured way, I guess. I don't know about structured, but let's say in a more positive way.
- [21:55]
B
Yes. I can give you, like, one example of a founder that I'm coaching. When I met him for the first time, he was, like, he was very, well, sort of, like, emotional and angry about, in his case, like, what he sees as missing engagement, like, of his. Of his people. And so there was a lot of anger inside him. But what turned out is that he was holding so much back that he was not talking really about his expectations, like, to his team. Yeah. So, like, what's like, a good way to get into contact, like, with the people? Not about necessarily then being angry in that situation, but not holding back, Understanding my own expectations and finding a way to bring them, like, into my business in an appropriate way.
- [22:43]
A
Right, right.
- [22:44]
B
And he was holding back too much. He was holding back, like, really almost then everything. Yeah. So he shut down and I helped him to get in touch with his people to speak about his expectations and to be clear on his expectations. And that's relatively simple. And it helped him, like, so much. Yeah.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah. Wonderful. We're coming to the end of our interview, so I wanted to ask you, where can people get a hold of you?
- [23:09]
B
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I'm always happy to get in touch with people via LinkedIn. Via my website, LinkedIn.
- [23:18]
A
Julius Lasalle. Okay, LinkedIn.
- [23:20]
B
Julius Lasalle. La Salle Berlin. Like the city where I live in, and it's also alive. Berlin. So that's the school that I have founded.
- [23:35]
A
Great. Thank you so much for this interesting interview. Thank you very much for your time and your knowledge.
- [23:42]
B
Thank you very much, Katrina, and good luck for your show.
- [23:45]
A
Thank you.
- [23:47]
C
Thank you for listening to the Excellent Executive Coach podcast. You can subscribe to all Future podcasts@excellent executive coaching.com. join us each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris CEO mastermind, use the contact form@excellentexecutivecoaching.com.