EEC 423: Life After Loss: The Energy of Now, with Pamela Steele

Summary

Podcast Summary: EEC 423 – Life After Loss: The Energy of Now, with Dr. Pamela Steele

Podcast: Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft
Host: Dr. Katrina Burrus, PhD, MCC
Guest: Dr. Pamela Steele, Grief Coach & Author
Air Date: March 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the subject of grief coaching, particularly as it pertains to end-of-life experiences—both for those facing death and their loved ones. Dr. Katrina Burrus interviews Dr. Pamela Steele, an expert on grief, about how to prepare for end-of-life, the emotional spectrum of loss, and practical guidance for supporting oneself and others through bereavement. Steele shares compelling personal stories, actionable advice for planning, and illuminating reflections on growth after loss.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Understanding Grief at the End of Life

• The Varieties of Grief
  Dr. Steele distinguishes between anticipatory (expected) and traumatic (unexpected) loss:

  • Traumatic loss offers no opportunity for farewells or closure.
  • Anticipatory loss allows time to process, share memories, and say goodbyes—with its own challenges in witnessing prolonged decline.

    “With traumatic loss, you do not have an opportunity to say goodbye... In anticipatory death, you do have time—but you’re watching someone suffer, and that is difficult in its own right.” (Pamela Steele, 02:16–03:31)

• Personal and Emotional Landscape

  • Everyone copes differently depending on personality and experience.
  • Grief can be experienced in small increments—“One day at a time. Sometimes five minutes at a time.” (Pamela Steele, 01:56)

Personal Journey into Grief Work

• From Corporate Strategist to Grief Specialist
  • Steele’s pivot stemmed from the successive loss of her father, mother, and brother within two years, despite having access to medical resources and knowledge.
  • The experience prompted her to create and facilitate workshops on living deeply and dying well.

    “I got into it out of necessity, not choice...I realized I don’t know what I’m doing—and I have all those things [resources].” (Pamela Steele, 03:35–04:48)

Practical End-of-Life Choices

• Advanced Healthcare Planning

  • Decisions about medical interventions, like feeding tubes and resuscitation, underscore the importance of advance directives.
  • Open conversations about wishes remove burdens from survivors and advocates.

    “Knowing what they want is a true gift...Having an advanced healthcare directive that is really clear and specific is a gift to you and to the person taking care of you.” (05:22–09:01)

• Readying Loved Ones

  • Conversations about end-of-life wishes prepare both the individual and their loved ones, alleviating confusion and guilt during crises.
  • Pamela recounts the contrast between handling the anticipated deaths in her family (with no prior discussion) versus her husband’s sudden death, where pre-discussed wishes made the “simple, but not easy” decision clear.

    “My father, mother, and brother had done no planning...That was very different for dealing with my husband’s death...I knew what he wanted.” (07:55–08:58)

Emotional and Practical Support for the Bereaved

• Authentic Presence and Listening

  • The value of just being present—listening, sharing silence, asking about memories.
  • Avoid pushing for answers or solutions; sometimes the bereaved do not know what they need.

    “Being willing to just sit and listen...is one of the most supportive things you can do.” (Pamela Steele, 09:43–11:30)

• Allowing Grievers Their Process

  • Avoid making assumptions based on outward strength.
  • Gentle actions—bringing food, inviting for walks, and facilitating storytelling—provide genuine support.

    “Don’t look at me and assume I am going to be fine because I look put together. Inside, I was crumbling.” (Pamela Steele, 13:25–15:30)

Healing, Growth, and Finding Joy Again

• Tiny Steps Toward Joy

  • Recovery happens in increments: “My first 10 seconds of joy...maybe tomorrow I’ll have 15.”
  • Self-care, patience, and gratitude are essential.

    “There’s a tremendous amount of value in being patient and just grateful for each step that you do take.” (Pamela Steele, 15:49–18:14)

• Permission for Humor and Happiness

  • Grief may bring guilt over laughter or happiness, but moments of humor are healing.
  • Sharing light moments, even in caregiving, as in Steele’s story about her mother and the cabbage, can help restore balance.

• Reframing Mortality

  • Honest preparation for death enables fuller engagement with life.

    “Death...is really a gift...The more honest you are now at this point in life...the more fully you can engage your life.” (Pamela Steele, 19:51–19:59)

• Writing as an Outlet

  • For Steele, journaling provided clarity and perspective over time—a suggestion she offers all grievers.

    “For me, writing was a tremendous outlet...Now, years later, looking back and rereading those is such an eye opener. Look how far I’ve come.” (Pamela Steele, 19:59–22:06)

Integrating Grief and Dreams

• Pamela’s Book
  • Nights of Hunger: A Cocktail of Grief, Dreams, and Dating for Old Ass Women draws heavily on her journaling, dream interpretation, and the nonlinear process of healing.
  • She describes a dream (Night 15) in which she loses her left arm after her husband’s death—interpreted as losing an essential part of herself, but not being incapacitated. This dream marked a pivotal, empowering moment.

    “Yes, I lost my husband...but I am not incapacitated. That dream gave me the courage and the impetus to move forward one step at a time.” (Pamela Steele, 23:35–24:51)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Grievers’ Needs:

  “Don’t make assumptions...Inside, I was crumbling.” (Pamela Steele, 13:25–15:30)

• On Permission to Grieve & Heal:

  “Staying stuck is a choice. I do not want to stay stuck. I want to figure out a way to reimagine my life...” (Pamela Steele, 15:49–18:14)

• On Finding Laughter:

  “Laughter is great medicine...We have to work hard to keep ourselves in balance and be grateful for those moments when we can find happiness.” (Pamela Steele, 18:14)

• On Honest Preparation:

  “The more honest you are now...the more fully you can engage in your life.” (Pamela Steele, 19:59)

• On Journaling and Perspective:

  “Look how far I’ve come. Look how much I have accomplished.” (Pamela Steele, 22:06)

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Resources & Further Learning

• Book:
  Nights of Hunger: A Cocktail of Grief, Dreams and Dating for Old Ass Women, by Dr. Pamela Steele — [Available on Amazon] (22:06)
• Website:
  Navigategrief.net — For more information and resources (25:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Types of Grief – 01:01–02:15
• Personal Motivation for Grief Coaching – 03:35–04:48
• Practical End-of-Life Decisions – 04:51–05:22
• Distinction Between Anticipated and Traumatic Loss – 06:27–08:58
• Supporting the Dying and Their Loved Ones – 09:43–11:30
• Handling Early Grief and Allowing Vulnerability – 13:25–15:37
• Moving Forward After Loss – 15:49–18:14
• Writing as Healing Practice – 19:59–22:06
• Role of Dreams and Book Discussion – 22:34–24:51

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Final Thoughts

Dr. Pamela Steele delivers actionable wisdom and heartfelt reflection on grief—emphasizing preparation, open communication, and ongoing self-compassion. Her experience and stories offer not just a blueprint for navigating loss, but an invitation to live presently and fully, honoring both the pain and possibility inherent in every life transition.

Transcript

[A]

Can we prepare our end of life? And if so, how do you do that? So let's ask Dr. Pamela Steele, an expert on grief and who has gone through multiple deaths of loved ones. Welcome to the excellent executive coaching podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Katrina Birous, and today we have Dr. Pamela Steele. Pamela, welcome.

[B]

Thank you so much, Dr. Katrina, it's a pleasure to be here.

[A]

So you're a specialist on grief coaching. People that have grief at the end of their life.

[B]

Okay, true.

[A]

So tell us one what does that entail? And then I'll ask you, how did you get to that point?

[B]

What does that entail? Boy, at the end of life, people experience a myriad of feelings. There is a lot of fear, there is anticipation. In some cases, there might be a sense of relief. But one way or another, we all have to face grief as it relates to loss. People handle that differently depending on their own personality, their own ability to deal with the unknown, their own ability to deal with sadness and anticipation. So it involves a lot, obviously, depending on the individual, depending on.

[A]

So give us examples of different way of anticipating this end of life period. Give us some examples of how you might live through this period.

[B]

Boy, you live through it one day at a time. Actually, sometimes five minutes at a time. There's a difference between anticipatory or anticipated death and traumatic loss. As I say, we. They both suck, but they are different.

[A]

How are they different?

[B]

With traumatic loss, you do not have an opportunity to say goodbye. You do not have an opportunity to share memories, to give those last words of I love you, I appreciate you. I'm so grateful for what we shared in this life. I'm so grateful for everything you did for me, everything I learned from you. You don't have that the person is alive, dead, gone, in anticipatory death. You know that a person, for example, is suffering from a terminal illness. And within a certain amount of time, should you choose to be honest and see that the trend line is moving towards the end, you're going to lose your person. You do have a lot of time in most cases then, to share all the things that I listed that you couldn't share with traumatic loss. That said, you're watching potentially, you're watching somebody suffer. You're watching a slow, long decline. And that is difficult in its own right.

[A]

How did you get into this subject?

[B]

I got into it out of necessity, not choice. I spent most of my career advising CEOs in communication strategies. But starting in 2005, my family started to fall apart. And between 2006 and 2008, I lost my father, my mother and brother. At that time, I was working in a trauma hospital and had access to all of the resources given that I was one of the top executives. And I found myself thinking, what about all these people who don't have any resources, who don't speak English, who don't have health care, who don't have money, et cetera? And I realized I don't know what I'm doing and I have all those things. Plus I'm very assertive. I'm not afraid to ask questions. I decided at that point I need to put a program together or participate in a program where I can reach out and help people better understand the choices that they might have to make on their own behalf or on behalf of somebody else at the end of life.

[A]

So what are some of the choices?

[B]

Well, you need to understand medical technology for one. Do you want a feeding tube? Do you want to be kept alive at any cost? How do you feel about quality of life versus quantity of life? Those types of things need all of us. Each of us needs to determine what we want, put those things in writing and share them with our health advocate. Should we not be able to speak on our own behalf?

[A]

Right. So when you lost your mother, father and brother and in a period of two years, what awareness did that bring to you and how have you used it to help others?

[B]

Well, as I said, I started facilitating workshops in the area of living deeply, dying. Well, how can we, I don't know, suck the marrow out of life right now while we're alive, but yet plan for a good death?

[A]

What is a good death? How do you plan for good death? So you mentioned one thing is quality versus quantity. Do you want to have a tube in you or not? So all these things you can put in your medical advanced healthcare directive?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So what other things can one prepare or that helps people through this very difficult moment?

[B]

So specifically you are asking, like, as I, as the survivor, what is going to help me get through the loss of a person important to me, knowing what they want is a true gift. In this culture, people don't want to talk about death and dying. What we fail to recognize is that by talking about it and having my loved one and my healthcare advocate really understand what I want is not only a gift for me as the person who is either facing death or preparing again, as we all should, but it is a gift for you as my survivor and or my health advocate, in that your job to support me at the end is Going to be one heck of a lot easier. I did not have the benefit of any of that. My father, mother, and brother had done no planning. We never talked about death in our family beyond looking at the Sunday obituaries. All of a sudden, I was the executor of all three of their will, and I had no idea what I was doing. Katrina. I literally learned on the job. That was very different for dealing with my husband's death, which I haven't spoken about. I lost my husband traumatically when my family members died. It was all anticipated death. My husband died on my feet in a parking lot on our 39th anniversary of cardiac arrest. And I was in an area with no cell service. So this was a completely different experience. He was ultimately taken to a hospital, put on all of the machines that one is put on, and I was the person who had to tell the doctor to pull the plug. It was an easy job, not a simple job, or it was simple, but not easy. I mean, it was very clear to me what I had to do because my husband and I had discussed all this. I knew what he wanted. He and I wanted the same things. There was no way I was going to keep him alive on a bunch of machinery.

[A]

Okay, thank you for sharing that again.

[B]

Having an advanced healthcare directive that is really clear and specific is a gift to you and to the person taking care of you.

[A]

How can you help people when they're passing? Let's say they're not. They're in a special home, a hospice, let's say. How do you help them process what's happening to them? Let's say they do already have a medical how to say document that indicates everything. So you've helped them in that way. What is the other, let's say, emotional aspects that you can support them?

[B]

Actually, being a friend and being willing to just sit and listen and be with a person, whether quietly or in conversation, is one of the most supportive things you can do. Typically, people who are at the end of life know that they are at the end of life. They may not share that with you. It depends on what your relationship is. They may recognize that you are scared to death of their passing, you don't want to let them go, et cetera. So they may not tell you, I am ready or I know I am going to pass soon. I can feel I'm at the end. I will often just sit and ask them to share stories with me. Tell me about your life. Who was the most impactful person in your life? Who or what inspired you to Accomplish all of the things that you accomplished. And I will also thank them for allowing me into their life, allowing me into their heart, allowing me to share what is most meaningful for them. At the end stage, often asking somebody, what do you need? How can I be most helpful to you? You might get an answer that's helpful. You might in fact get no answer. Very often people don't know what they need. Certainly I, as a griever, when people ask me what I need, I said I don't know the answer to that. So that's really going in a different direction than you, than your question.

[A]

Okay. So at the end of their life, I just want to underscore that people know that they're dying because at 11 years old I was very, very, very sick and I knew if it continued that way I would die. And at 11 year old you just don't sort of say things like construed and I told my mother I'm dying and she moved mountains to get me out of that situation. So I think that's an important point you mention is that people know when they're at the end of their life or very near it. So that's the other thing. And to talk about it or what they share or they don't share. Of course, at 11 years old I was very spontaneous, so I said what I thought.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But is it any relief that older people that are, they know they're dying to share that.

[B]

Is it a relief to them or to this? I guess it depends again on the relationship. I would answer that question with a yes because that means I trust you enough to be totally honest and share what it is I'm feeling, which in turn will lead to a much deeper conversation. If I feel for safety reasons or trust reasons that I need to hide that you and I are not going to reach that depth.

[A]

So how do you help somebody that is at dealing with this situation? And how would have you liked being helped when you had this terrible situation where you lost your husband in seconds?

[B]

One of the biggest things that I believe is helpful as a friend to somebody who is grieving is not to make assumptions. Don't look at me and say I look like I'm put together. And you've always known me to be a really strong individual, independent, can do individual and assume that I am going to be fine. I say that because that is in fact what has happened or what did happen to me. I've always been able to take care of myself and put a good face on anything inside I was crumbling inside I was devastated. It is totally traumatic to lose a loved one, and especially somebody with whom you've spent more than half of your life. I really appreciated those people who came forward and just brought me food or said, we're going outside. We're going to go take a walk. I know you don't want to, but we're going. And literally would take me by the hand and take me outside and force me to breathe some fresh air, which in fact makes a huge difference. People who are willing to listen to my story because as a griever, it's very important that I be able to speak about my person. I appreciate somebody who's going to listen and invite me. Tell me more stories about your husband. How did you guys meet? What are some of the highlights of your life? What are some of the best memories? That said, I will also share that. Early on, actually, one of my relatives said to me, just focus on all the good things. And I thought to myself, I know intellectually that you're right, but I am not there.

[A]

I see.

[B]

I'm so overrun by pain. I can't think about those good memories right now. I'll get there, but I'm not there now.

[A]

Yeah, so what? At that particular moment when their person is under so much pain, what could help relieve it? Not relieve it, but at least deal with it.

[B]

For me, once I made the decision that I was going to continue living, because I really did consider the alternative, I realized that nobody else can decide how I'm going to live each day. I have to make a conscious choice. Am I going to look for joy? Am I going to look for happiness? Am I just going to wallow in all of the pain? This all happens very, very slowly. My first 10 seconds of joy, looking out at the Olympic mountains and thinking about how much my husband was, would love that view. And, oh, 10 seconds of joy. Maybe tomorrow I'll have 15. So I really paid attention to how I was going to focus on each day. I, being the kind of person that I am, found comfort in every day, finding an activity that I could do, an accomplishment. So at the end of the day, it might have been, I took a shower. It could be something really simple. What kind of support did I either ask for or receive on that day? And what did I do to take care of myself? So every day, I literally wrote down at the end of the day what I did in each of those categories. I also had to spend a lot of time being graceful and patient with myself. Being a type A very active person. Patience is not always my best quality. I have learned the hard way. There's a tremendous amount of value in being patient and just grateful for each step that you do take. I also recognize that staying stuck is a choice. I do not want to stay stuck. I want to figure out a way to reimagine my life, redefine my identity, and find joy again, find some happiness in life, be able to laugh and not feel guilty about laughing.

[A]

So you might even feel guilt if you're happy.

[B]

Yeah. How dare I feel guilty? I just lost my husband. But laughter is great medicine. I think we all know that. And there are really, really some funny things. I mean, when. When my mother was. My mother died of Alzheimer's and she lived with us for about eight weeks. At one point, I was standing next to her in the kitchen and I looked over and she wasn't there. I looked down and found that she was scrubbing the floor with a piece of cabbage. In and of itself, that's pretty tragic. But when I retold the story, I had to laugh. I had to laugh and I had. At least it wasn't red cabbage and it ruined my floor. I mean, you just. You have to find some humor. We have to work hard to keep ourselves in balance and be grateful for those moments when we can find happiness, when we can feel a sense of hope, when we can reimagine joy. Because it is out here. I am so grateful for. I'm grateful for what I've been through because it has helped me grow. It has helped me better appreciate everything that I do have in life. And it has helped me realize that, by gosh, I really am going to suck the marrow out of life. I am really going to live each minute as fully as I can because it's not coming back.

[A]

So it gave you another perspective on life, that it's. There's an end to it. I guess we're mortal.

[B]

Absolutely. I think that that is really a gift that death provides. Again, it can be anticipated. Death meaning like you are young, you are vibrant, you are healthy, but the more honest you are now at this point in life and do the planning so that you're ready when, and if not, if it will be when you will better appreciate. You will be able to let go of some of the to do's, some of the fear, because you will have done the work to be better prepared which will allow you to more fully engage in your life. Yes. I also found for me that writing was a tremendous outlet. Why is that? I could get the feelings that were Bottled up inside me, out, out, basically on a piece of paper. For some people, it might be through music, it might be through art. For me, it was through writing. I asked myself a difficult question every single day, and I wasn't allowed to go to bed until I answered that question in writing. And each day it was a different question. Putting all that on paper allowed me to really express the pain, the fear, the judgment, the guilt, whatever it was that was up for me then. Now, years later, looking back and rereading those is such an eye opener, I can now say, wow, look how far I've come. Look how much I have accomplished. Look how much healthier I am, how much better I am. So I'm grateful to have those memories to go back to.

[A]

Well, you know, we're coming to the end of our podcast, unfortunately, and I just want to say to the listeners that you've written a book called Nights of Hunger, A Cocktail of Grief, Dreams and Dating for Old Ass Women. Oh my, what a title.

[B]

Well, I had a lot of fun with it.

[A]

So from your writing, did you integrate some of your writing in that book?

[B]

Yes, actually, the 30 days of journal writing is pretty much the only linear part of that book. I am also quite a dreamer, so I documented dreams which were another way of informing me how I was processing death. Those dreams allowed me to look at aspects of my psyche at that point in time and better understand.

[A]

So you wrote the dreams and then how did. Were you helped to interpret it? Do you go through a book or, or just it's become self evident?

[B]

Well, I am a psychologist and I've done, I've done a lot of work with dreams. I would love to share one dream with you if we have the time to do that, because let's take the

[A]

time and then we'll have to go.

[B]

Okay. So it was a dream that occurred on night 15. So 15 after my husband died, I dreamt that I woke up in the recovery room of a hospital to find that my left arm had been amputated. I looked up at the doctor with this look of complete puzzlement, and he said, oops, I made a mistake, so sue me. And I looked at him again with absolute horror and said a few choice words. And he said, actually, it wasn't going to make it. I had to do that. And in my dream, on a parallel track, I thought, it's my left arm, it's not my right. I have lost an extremely important part of me, but I am not totally incapacitated. When I woke up from that dream, I felt empowered. Yes, I lost my husband. I lost an extremely important part of my life. But I am not incapacitated. That dream gave me the courage and the impetus to move forward one step at a time.

[A]

Thank you for sharing that. Thank you very much. And where can people get the hold of your book?

[B]

It's on Amazon.

[A]

Okay. Well, thank you so very much for sharing your your experience, your wisdom, the listeners of Excellent Executive Coaching. Thank you very much.

[B]

I would love to share my website.

[A]

Oh, okay. What's your website?

[B]

I do have a website. Navigategrief.net There's a lot more information on that.

[A]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[C]

Thank you for listening to the Excellent Executive Coaching podcast. You can subscribe to all Future [e-mail] join us each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris CEO Mastermind, use the contact form at Excellent ExecutiveCoaching.com.