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Excellent Executive Coaching: Growing Your Business and Enhancing Your Craft.
EEC 426: What You Need to Know about Brilliant Jerks Part 2, with Dr. Katrina Burrus
00:31:35
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- [00:05]
A
So are brilliant jokes less emotionally intelligent? Yes, I would say that's a nice, simple answer. As a big picture answer. I'm sure there's more complexity if we dive into it. Yeah.
- [00:17]
B
As I say that they see results. Their focus is almost 2020 on results. And anything that gets in the way of that, they tend to get anxious. It's like the bear that sees the food. There's a direct way to that. Food the bear will eat, will not attack you even though you're behind them. But if you're between the food and the bear, they'll attack you. So it's also targeted attacks.
- [00:46]
A
Right. That's an interesting metaphor. Yeah. So what is toxic, a toxic leader? What is their reason? If they have a reason for behaving in this way?
- [00:57]
B
That is a harder question to answer, but I'll try. First of all, I think they've been a certain trauma they've had, have gone through. Sometimes their parents recognize them only for results and not for who they are. Parents love their children for who they are and for what they achieve. What happens if parents only recognize the person for what they achieve and chastise them if they fail? And that behavior from the parents is constant? Well, it has repercussions as a leader later on. So that's why I think you also have to look at their own backgrounds to better understand them and to help them if you want to shift and transform them. That you need to be acknowledged. They need to be acknowledged that that might be the case. Might be the case.
- [01:54]
A
So brilliant jerks doesn't just apply to the corporate space. Actually, brilliant jerks exist in all systems potentially. Then family systems, friend groups, obviously, colleagues at work and so on.
- [02:06]
B
Yes, absolutely. I think many toxic leaders, it starts in their families.
- [02:12]
A
Right, that's interesting. So that a lot of people who perhaps display the characteristics of being a brilliant jerk in the workplace, if you look into their. Their history, will you see clues and signs as to how they got there?
- [02:27]
B
Yes. Yes, you do, right? Signs. And that's why I think, although a coach is not a psychologist, but just to understand their system. I think as they grow up, you know, what interaction they had, what models they had, I think is important later on to understand them in the corporate environment and their insecurities, because the insecurities make them fear certain situations.
- [03:02]
A
One of the things that you mentioned in the TED talk and in your book is that brilliant jerks, they just have damaged frameworks of connection.
- [03:10]
B
Yes. So. Yes, yes, that's interesting questions. I say they're not villains, but they have damaged frameworks of connection. So I'm not excusing the behavior, but I'm trying to understand and have people understand that there are a lot of people that don't know better, that haven't learned certain skill set. Now I'm not talking about the psychopath or the sociopath because those are illnesses that you can even see in an mri. So I just want to frame it that these are people that have not learned to be emotionally intelligent but have the capacity to develop with support.
- [03:55]
A
Well, that's interesting because that kind of leads me into my next question which is, you know, if you've got the word like damaged in that phrase, can one, can the damage be repaired? Firstly and secondly, my second part to that question is if it can be repaired, how so?
- [04:12]
B
Yes, it can be repaired, but it needs certain situation. One, the person needs to develop the self awareness and then understand their reactions. And even when they understand, and I'll tell you how the framework goes, they need practice in this new behavior that is more conducive to getting their results and leaving people in better situations. Because often they think their responsibility is not to hold people's hand. And if you are asking them to be nice and better, you should treat people better. They feel like they're being soft. They feel that their job is to be brilliant at whatever they have to be and at the detriment of people. So there's a value system that needs to be addressed as well. So that takes time and awareness and I think it needs self awareness. You know, you need to dig to the underlying fear, as I said on my TED talk, and understand how that impacts the person and then discover how you're perceived by others. So that you see it's in a system. It's not only the coach and the coachee, it's the system that is perceiving that person. And it's very important to research that, to get very specific information exactly how that perception has been formed and what they do and what they say that gives that perception. Because then you can come back with the feedback that is very specific so that they can know the action steps, what to do. Because you don't want to do what a lot of leaders they criticize, but they don't tell you exactly what you need to do to change that perception. Now the leader will decide to change it or not. That's a coach or HR or a CEO can't really force them, but if you can give them irrefutable data how they're perceived and they usually have big egos, which is not a deterrent to change. And you can bring that back and show them that there's another way to be as successful because that's their values, but also a long term success that's sustainable, then they'll listen. But that's not enough either.
- [06:43]
A
I was going to say that's really fascinating because you've got to get the buy in, haven't you, in order to go through that process?
- [06:47]
B
Yes, the buy in. And you can't force them, obviously they're mature, intelligent people. But that will usually will get an understanding. And then their buy in is the. Usually it comes with this information that's very specific. But then they might feel sort of like this is overwhelming because hey, I wasn't aware of this and here I am and I have all this information. The next step is to help them create and practice new behaviors that are more, more conducive and you know, like somebody that comes into a meeting and says they never give me ideas. It's incredible. What is it? These, these dumb fools here, how can I work with them? Okay, why do you think they don't talk? How do you think they perceive you? What is the consequences if they don't talk? Questions. So they get out of their gut and they start being intellectually stimulated to perceive what is it in their behavior that creates that reaction? And brainstorm with them. What is the new behavior that would give the reaction they want, which is interaction. And then they need to practice. But it doesn't go straight line, it goes up and down. I mean, I had one client call me and said I destroyed her, I destroyed her, but I couldn't help it. So there's that. And that's where the empathy comes for them too. Okay. Because this person was having lunch with his favorite friend, which they seemed to have lunch dinners together. But then when they found out that the big boss of the global company was at the meeting. Well, my client criticized his friend ruthlessly. And since he is brilliant, he did it ruthlessly and it hurt. Then the debriefing. So what do you think the CEO of this global company perceives you. Oh, intelligent. What was the impulse that made you do it? Of course he wanted attention. But what does the global leader want for the company? Well, that you develop people, basically. I mean, I'm not saying that, but to develop people. So why would he promote you if he perceives you as destroying them? I'm just shortcutting the discussion. But that's a little bit the thinking process that goes through and it's up and down. But you also have to prepare the system to accept the new behavior. So imagine, Steve, someone comes to you that is super toxic and comes and says, so, Steve, how was your weekend? Did you have a good time? It's a little awkward. And if he does, he tries to be nice, you say, oh my God, what is he going to ask me next? Okay. And then push him back. Well, if you prepare the system that he's going through this process of leadership development, well, oh, he was trying to be nice. Yeah, well, you know, they'll help him out. So you work with the individual, but you have to work with the system. It's like if an ex alcoholic who now is sober, goes back with his friends he drinks with, well, what's the probability that he's going to succeed? You have to prepare, you know, that he has new friends with people that have other interests and the same in an organization. Prepare them that he is trying to work on things and that also recognizes them that they've gone through a tough moment with the leader. Okay, I think I talked enough.
- [10:46]
A
No, I mean, it's all fascinating. And you've actually, in doing that, answered a lot of the questions that I would have had following up. But you've, you've actually answered a few of them. Because one of the things that strikes me is that one of the difficulties one might have in working with the brilliant jerk is the fact that they're brilliant jerks. In other words, there's a presupposition that they're in a position of authority. There's a presupposition that they get results, hence, you know, we're calling them brilliant. And there's potentially some ego issues. You touched on that just a moment ago. And therefore seems to be the hardest part of this to, to crack, so to speak, is getting the buy in, as we've just discussed, from the leader, from the brilliant jerk, that actually there's a better way for them because they're getting results. So it'd be easy for them to say, look, I get results. You know, you probably hear that. Yeah. And therefore the question becomes, not that you're getting results, but two. One, at what cost? And raising an awareness of the cost of what's actually happening. The chaos in their wake turbulence almost. But also the second bit that not only that, but also how much better could things be if actually you found a better way? So it is touching on that ego that you mentioned that actually they could be more powerful, more successful if they were actually easier to work with. If they were showing maybe different aspects of leadership. So is that really the key to find that, that crack or that chink in the armor that resonates with them, that they would open up the space for you to step in and help them to move away from being a brilliant jerk more towards an inspirational leader? Are you a detective searching for that, that crack or that chink in the armor as you begin to work with brilliant jerks?
- [12:31]
B
Well, they are. Yes, they are brilliant. But if I bring them irrefutable data that it's not working the way they think it' that usually they're very smart. Yeah. And if they have hope that they can change and be better. But I also want to say that the company needs to take position vis a vis this toxic leader. For example, I am not there. Let's say the CEO calls or the board member calls me and says, look, if he doesn't change, I'm going to fire him in six months. And I've heard that before. I say, if they say six months, they need to see results half the time in three months. But I said, have you talked to the person about this? Oh, yes, yes, yes. I go to my client. Oh, no, he thinks I'm great. So again, you're working with a system and as an exterior person, you have to have line management take the responsibility and tell the person that this behavior is not okay. And often it takes a long time. Why does it take a long time? Because they do fabulous results and they'll excuse his behavior. Oh, he's getting a divorce. Oh, he's getting rid of people that are less productive. Etc.
- [13:49]
A
That leads me to the thought of complicity and complicity on both sides of the equation. So you've got, potentially, you've got the brilliant jerk in the middle, say, then you've got the people that they report to, who do they call it out? Do they sit on it? Because maybe the brilliant joke is getting results and therefore by doing that, they're being somewhat complicit, they're allowing it to continue. And then you've got the other side of the equation, the people who are on the receiving end, maybe the people who are lower down the food chain, who are on the receiving end of the toxic behavior. Is there something more that they could do to call this out so that it's not seen as acceptable? And maybe that puts pressure on the brilliant jet to change as well.
- [14:30]
B
It's very hard. And it's a take another podcast to do of how the victims of these behaviors they can. I would Just say shortly, if the victim can, can take it and not reevaluate themselves, it's okay to stay. But if it starts poisoning them internally and they can't sleep and they have stress attacks and things, they need to leave. Because that is really affecting their, their behavior and their health. I would say their health. The other thing blind management needs to say, as I already said that, and sometimes, funnily enough, the leader, the intermediate leader that wants to protect his people, takes all the toxicity, but protects his people. That is negative on two ways. One, it takes a longer time to figure out that this person is toxic. And second, the intermediary, that one that's buffing the hits is going to burn out much quicker. So there's all sorts of things that need to be put into place so that the organization does what is necessary not to have this happen. Like leadership principles, you know, what is accepted, what is not. Because if they don't have that, a toxic leader can say, I didn't know. That's not okay. Well, if it's written, you say, look, you are not behaving in the way we want our leaders to behave. See, here it is written down. And therefore you need coaching. You need to change. We'll offer you this to do so, but you need to change. That is line manager's duty. I once wanted to protect my client because I could see he was going to be fired. And I said, did you think that you might be fired if you continue like this? Because they told me they were going to fire him, okay. And I wanted to protect my client. Well, that was the worst thing ever. And I learned the hard way, let management do their job. Because what happened is that they got a huge mandate and this person was an expert in mergers and acquisition and they promoted him. That's it. My credibility was finished. So I learned the hard way, you don't interfere. You help management or leadership do that. So I have triads where I talk to my client that has toxic behavior. Their boss and I help them get together and discuss it. So it's really clear.
- [17:10]
A
Yeah, I mean, that raises a couple of interesting issues. One, two things that went off in my mind when you said that. One was the importance of values in an organization. Organizational values, what a company stands for, and the alignment to those values for everyone in the organization. You know, once when I was researching values many years ago, just looking at, you know, how many values are just window dressing, the value, you know, you ask somebody in the company what are the values of the company? And even some people In HR couldn't tell you. And that just shows you how prominent the values are. So maybe that's part of the solution as well in there somewhere. You know, the, the fact you don't. It's not just the brilliant jerk, it's the system that they operate in. As you mentioned before, I think that's, that's really important. And also that what went through my mind, does this exist? I don't know if it's true or one of those old wives tales, as people used to call them, where there was a car manufacturer that had a faulty brake system and they worked out the cost of recalling all the vehicles was more than the cost of paying compensation for accidents that resulted in bad accidents. And therefore it was actually in the short term, it was worth continuing with the problem. Does that kind of thing happen in organizations where people think we'll put up with it until the problem gets too big?
- [18:31]
B
Yes, and they put up with it especially when the people are scared to report the problem to top leadership, top management. And that scared is also by toxic behavior. Because if you shoot the messenger of bad news, so that's a real cost of toxic leadership, is that the problems don't surface quickly enough so that it doesn't become a crisis and they're dealt with.
- [18:57]
A
Right. So it sounds like openness and transparency are really, really important. And adherence rather to values and standing up for what's right is really important. And I just want to shine the spotlight back on the solution to the. You know, one of the things that you have done is you have through all your research and the many years of experience that you've had, you have got this approach or formulated this approach to dealing with brilliant jerks. And in the simplest way possible. Could you just give us the big picture overview of what that is?
- [19:28]
B
Yes, I call it the 3D leadership solution. As one, the first D stands for dig. Dig for the underlying fears and the cause that makes this behavior erupt. Second is discover how you're perceived in very specific terms what you do or say that gives that perception and then deliver the necessary changes to change the behavior. So these are three important steps. Self awareness, stakeholder awareness, and then applying the new behavior is another way of saying it. But the 3Ds makes it easy. Dig, discover and deliver.
- [20:12]
A
Nice. Yeah, that's a great as a structured approach, but obviously there's devil in the detail, so to speak. You know, it's a skilled job to do those things and get to the result. And coming back to that central question in your TEDx talk. Can brilliant jerks become inspirational leaders? You know, I wonder, you know, there's the expression throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If we don't have a kind of approach like, like your approach, for example, to almost recover brilliant jerks, bring them back in, so to speak. The danger is that we can lose brilliant people when we didn't need to. And not only that, but they're already brilliant. So if we could find a way for them to find a way to change them into inspirational leaders, the benefit to an organization must be huge as opposed to just losing brilliant people.
- [20:56]
B
Yes. In the process of dig, discover, deliver is it goes to the root cause of the problem as well so that they could retain the brilliance and the people. The brilliant jerk who becomes inspirational is also developing the successors. Not feeling threatened by a successor, but sees his job as developing others, which is a huge advantage for the company. Company. Right. And so that's also. This transformation is getting to the root cause. It's also shifting the priorities of the person, keeping their brilliance and their talents, as you said, but also understanding that their role is to develop others and to focus on the business, which they do, but not narrowly. They need to open to a bigger sphere, not necessarily immediate results, but as a leader have a bigger perspective of the company overall.
- [21:59]
A
Yeah. So when we think about the solution framework, so to speak, if we firmly place ourselves in the solution, how aware is a brilliant jerk that they are a brilliant jerk?
- [22:12]
B
I think if they do the process, they're aware, very much aware, because I do research work, working with them, exactly what they do and say that gives this perception. Now it is a perception, they can accept it, it's not true or not, but it's a perception that is harming their career long term. So I think this realization and also knowing how to change is important. I'm not sure I answered your question.
- [22:44]
A
I think you have answer the question. I think because it seems to me that the hardest part of this is for a brilliant joke to raise the level of awareness that they have about their own behavior and the impact of that behavior so that they understand that there is a better way, which is their incentive for change. Even if their incentive for change is a selfish reason, for example, that it's not because they want. This is an interesting question as well that I know you address in your TED Talk, that it's not necessarily just that, that they want to have better communication with people, that sometimes there might be a motive or the main motive might actually be for them to get better results. And the way to do that, they realize, is by having better relationships. Does it really matter so much what the incentive is as opposed to getting a better result?
- [23:33]
B
You got to use it because, for example, when I get to do research work, I ask them who do they admire and I get feedback from the people they, they also admire because that is really leveraging their ego because they want to be perceived well by those people.
- [23:52]
A
Yeah.
- [23:53]
B
So that's another incentive for them to change and for their self interest. Yes. I mean, we're all self interested to some extent and their ego is very big. But because it's big, it also helps for the transformation and especially if they see it's in their best interest.
- [24:14]
A
Yeah.
- [24:15]
B
Yes. It comes back to your answer to your question. Excuse me.
- [24:18]
A
And the reason why I'm chuckling there is because I just imagine that, you know, if you, if someone says I want to work with you because, you know, you could be a difficult leader, imagine that's quite easy to swallow. But I want to work with you because you're a brilliant jerk. You know, the title is quite in your face and it's in your face. And it's great that it is because it grabs attention. And what you're saying is, one of the things you're saying through your research is this is a very, very widespread issue because it's, you know, 1 in 2, 75%, whatever you want to call it, but it's, it's very prevalent. And I think, you know, we've had that expression that most people leave bosses more than they leave companies. The, the cost, as you've hinted at, the cost, which is huge. And some of the things, you know, people have wouldn't have been thinking about, but oh my God, yes, I can see how that's a good cost, that this problem really needs to be addressed because it's a huge problem and you're offering a solution and your solution is hitting it head on. Okay, come on, brilliant jerks, let's turn you into inspirational leaders. You know, all is not lost. Stay brilliant. But become a brilliant inspirational leader as opposed to a brilliant jerk. What's your hope that more brilliant jerks will raise their levels of awareness and actually see the advantage of being proactive and in becoming inspirational leaders.
- [25:30]
B
Well, usually it's not the brilliant jerks that will come voluntarily because they see themselves as brilliant. And the cost to be brilliant is to be their 2020 focus on results or whatever. Expertise or whatever. So that's the issue.
- [25:52]
A
Yeah. And again, because the problem is so widespread, I think the work that you do is really important. I think talking about it is really important. I think more companies and organizations that challenge head on this kind of problem rather than push the problem maybe under the carpet. I imagine a lot of them. Do you know the difference it would make to productivity, People's enjoyment of the workplace? They spent so much of their lives at work that the impact of turning brilliant jokes into inspirational leaders would be immense. So I think the work that you do is really important. If there was one or two things that you would like people to be aware of that maybe they're not so aware of. When it comes to the issue of working with brilliant jerks, what would those one or two things be? What would you like to say to people listening to this, this podcast in terms of how you'd like them to think about the issue of dealing with brilliant jerks? Whether they are a brilliant joke themselves or somebody on either side of the equation?
- [26:53]
B
So let's start with the victim. If the victim feels worse off than when they started and they don't have a framework to work with to improve, they might be dealing with someone that's a little destructive. Okay, Now a demanding boss can be harsh too, but they give you ways to improve. Okay, so that's for the victims, for the company, I would say it's important, important to address the issue and not put it under the carpet. That if this behavior is not say it immediately and if it's hard for the person. Because what happens if you have a brilliant jerk and the boss is an avoidant leader? That's not going to work. So even have somebody outside to facilitate the conversation. And for the brilliant jerk, usually it isn't them that reaches out, but it's the people around them. Hr, the CEO, the board. Because often the solution is they'll fire the person instead of getting to the root cause of it. And I think firing it is just placing the problem elsewhere. Or they'll ostracize them so that they're overpaying somebody that has no leadership responsibility but love. They keep him because of his expertise and they have no successor. Person didn't work on that. So I would say that get leadership principles, that's already a good start. Because then if the behavior doesn't match the leadership principles, you can immediately address the issue and clarify what's the expectation. That's already an initiative. And also with teams to have a chart of how they're going to work together, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, like behavior. Usually they are always so focused on the results, that's just very good. But also focus how they agree to behave together and what is not acceptable or destructive. And an individual, if they feel hurt by something, if they have the courage to go and say, look, I could be more productive, but this is what I need from you to have better results. Now you're speaking their language. You're just asking, let's change the behavior. And if the person is super aggressive, screaming, don't confront them.
- [29:25]
A
Go.
- [29:25]
B
When the person's calmed down, they have remorse, too. That's when you can talk to them.
- [29:31]
A
I'm hearing that there are solution pathways or frameworks for all people who are impacted by this. The organization itself, the brilliant jerk, and the people who are sometimes on the receiving end of working with a brilliant jerk. So ultimately, what I'm hearing is a very hopeful message that if we tackle this problem in the right way, we can get a much better outcome for everybody.
- [29:55]
B
Yes, totally. And it's a pity that people don't address the issue, but it's true. It's not an easy problem to solve. So the HR has to have a pile of complaints before something is done. And then it's also an expertise to deal with these people, too. It's not an easy case, but I love it.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, well, again, it's skillful handling because you can. You can step. You know, I don't want to say the expression. I was going to say step on a mind. You can do it wrong. You can, you know, you can be a bull in a china shop if you don't know what you're doing. But if you understand the problem and if you approach it in a structured way, you can get to a result. And ultimately, that's really what I suppose the book is all about, ultimately. And not only the book, the TED Talk as well. And the work that you do. It's about getting the best result from what is a tricky and a difficult situation, but a very widespread one.
- [30:48]
B
Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much for your interview.
- [30:52]
A
Thank you, Katrina. It's fascinating. I could talk to you a lot more about this simply because I've lived it, but I'm sure lots of people listening here will recognize that they've been living it at some point in their lives as well.
- [31:03]
B
Thank you very much. Thank you very much.
- [31:06]
A
Thank you for listening to the excellent executive coaching podcast. You can subscribe to all Future podcasts@excellentexecutivecoaching.com join us here each Wednesday to learn more about the latest trends in leadership techniques and bring your coaching to the next level. To learn more about Dr. Burris, CEO Mastermind, use the contact form at excellentexecutivecoaching. Com.