Narrator (8:51)

And now a word from our partners.

Jessica Ashley Gill (8:56)

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Narrator (10:36)

All right, on to the episode.

Jessica Ashley Gill (10:43)

I remember the first time we recorded talking about on your best behavior when the book first came out and you were talking about, I want an integration piece. Like, there's so much awareness. And once you have all this awareness, like, I remember going through that book like wildfire, eating it all up. Like, everything was just speaking to a depth of my soul that was so true for generations and generations back. And it just, like, awakened so much. And then there's that moment of, like, what do we do about it all? There's so many levels. There's so many parts of the psyche. There's so many stories to pick apart. So how did this book come to fruition from on our best Behavior?

Elise Luna (11:22)

It's so funny because I was. As I was reading how to Manifest, I was like, oh, we should do a collaboration. I mean, that's really what this workbook, choosing wholeness over goodness is. But to identify the limiting subconscious belief and then work it out of your psyche and choose something else instead is very much what this companion workbook is. How to manifest something different for yourself. And, like, stop running the same old scripts that we've been sold over millennia. And to your point, the workbook happened because consciousness is sort of the biggest and most important step when you don't actually know what you're operating on and what you're believing and the stories that you're holding up as true about, in the instances of honor, best behavior, what it means to be a good woman and perform that goodness in the world. Right? A tireless worker, a woman who subjugates what she wants to other people's needs. A woman who doesn't really seek praise, attention, or affirmation. A woman who doesn't talk about money because money is base and unspiritual and there's already too much inequity. So if I get more, you get less, Jess. Right. Like, a good woman is sexy but not sexual. A good woman never gets angry, maybe only on behalf of other people, but certainly not on herself. Like, she doesn't have boundaries, no boundaries. As I took the book into the world and women were like, oh, my God. I thought that those were my stories alone. I didn't realize that these are cultural ideas that we've all been sold and just are subconsciously acting out. The consciousness of it is a big part, but it's not enough. And so women were like, now what? And I didn't know honestly what to give them until I did this workbook. I did it with a woman named Courtney Smith, who's a coach who really works with people's stories and shifting those stories. But I had to answer the call because it's really frustrating, as you know, in your work to be like, okay, I don't wanna do anymore, but what do I do instead? And so we created this core process to take people through for identifying the story, making the story really big and playing with it, giving it a Persona. I know you like internal family systems, but, you know, giving those parts some air so you really understand what you're up to and then finally putting them down and choosing something, a new story again, like, it's so freakishly, it's TBM coded. Yeah.

Jessica Ashley Gill (13:55)

I'm like, yes, I love it. Well, just to give kind of a layout because I love understanding the structure of things like this. So if you have not read Honor Best behavior, 100% recommend, it is just something that I feel like all women, humans, everyone needs to read to really understand what are the cultural narratives and story that are so pervasive in us, that are widespread, that really run the show in so many different levels, whether that's our career, our homes, our self identity, our self worth. Like all of it is so connected to all of these themes through the fun lens of the seven deadly sins, plus sadness. But then looking at this workbook, it's taking all of those parts of the sins and looking at them and saying, let's integrate that. Let's take all these exercises and really examine. It's like a deep unblocking process, really. And the other thing I loved about this was the chapters in the beginning of kind of the refresher of what each of the sins were, but a little insight of post book. Whoa. When I was on tour, this happened, or I talked to people about this, or I learned this. So it felt like such a cool follow up to that next chapter of like, okay, we've elevated, we've grown. Now what are we learning? It's really, really a masterful book. And I've been going through exercises since I got it on Friday and read through all of the reading portions of it. So it's amazing.

Elise Luna (15:24)

You get an A. I think what's important too to note about Honor Best Behavior and the workbook choosing wholeness over goodness is that so much of our manifestation work or our unblocking work feels personal. And it might really be specific to you, but what Honor Best Behavior points Out is that so many of us are held by these cultural ideals and values and that it's really hard. You can do all your own unblocking and really start living into who you're supposed to be and your gifts and what you're supposed to be doing. And you will confront and crash into cultural ideas about what a good woman does and does not do. And the cultural piece, I think, is incredibly important collective work, even for us, just to become conscious of. And I write about the expanders concept in the chapter on Envy, for example, was a big inspiration. This will all be very resonant for people who know your work. But when someone comes up, when we encounter what we would call an expander, but someone who has something we want or is doing something we want, the instinct when we're not conscious is to deprecate, destroy, judge, silence, police, put that woman back in her place. Just making us deeply uncomfortable, right? By showing us something that we want for ourselves. And so the shift move, of course, is what you guys are working with, which is, no, no, no, if she can do it, you can do it too. This person is knocking on your soul and saying, like, pay attention to me. There's something here for you. And I hear this now, credit to you guys all the time. People will reach out to me. You're an expander for me. You're an expander for me. You're an expander for me. And I take that. I love that. Because to me, it recognizes that whereas someone might have been like, I don't like her. She has too much, or her success is imperiling because of scarcity, et cetera, imperiling what I see as possible for me. Instead, it suggests to me that everyone's already shifting or people are starting to shift and say, okay, no, it's a testament to what's possible. And that's sort of the collective action I'm talking about. Like, the more that we switch it from threat to expander, the more we start using each other as models for our own freedom, the faster we can shift this culture as well, which every bit of healing work that you do on yourself helps the collective.

Jessica Ashley Gill (17:53)

I really believe that a thousand percent. And I think you bring up something so good, which is that so many of these blocks or things that people are going through or running through, they think it is like, oh, this is just my story, or maybe I have a couple friends that do this, but like. Like, this can't be a widespread issue. And every time, both in reading on our best behavior and in the workbook. I'm like, oh, right, this is normal for people. Unfortunately, these stories are the norm. I'm not alone in experiencing that or feeling like I have to do it all or be it all or, you know what I mean, like, or wanting to be the good girl or get the A or, you know, that's so pervasive. And I think even naming, hey, you're not alone in this. This is so much cultural programming. Let's start to peel it back and figure out what are those ways that we can rewrite all of those narratives because they're just so pervasive. One thing I'm noticing collectively really strongly right now, and maybe it's, I don't know, because of the work that we do in podcasting and high achieving women and all of these things, but women that are doing everything, holding everything, exhausted, burnt out, hoping for, like, that day to do all the things that they love, but it never quite comes, and unable to really drop it all, they're trying to rest. They know that rest is good, rest is being reprogrammed in the cultural zeitgeist. But there's still this resistance of, like, it's really hard to figure out what is an aligned way of letting certain things go.

Elise Luna (19:31)

Yes, no. This is a huge chunk of my work. And it's funny, this was what was flashing to me most extremely last week when I was on vacation and reading how to Manifest, because I think what happens, and this is the sloth chapter. And when we take you through this court process in the workbook, we offer some examples from our own lives of the stories or the blocks that we're really working with. And so one of mine, which I'm sure I can imagine the heads nodding as I say this phrase, is, I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. This is a very closely held story of mine. You would. You still to this day have to wrestle it out of my hands. I'm so convinced my identity is so structured around this belief and it has served me well, Jessica. It has really delivered me to the mountaintop, this idea of I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. And before we get into sort of like how to work that story with this process, I just want to also add that what happens, I think, to women, and there are men who struggle with this as well, but it's like a great trick of our culture to get us to believe these stories, right? Because then and to reinforce this as what a Good woman does. A good woman is taking care of everything at work and at home and for her family, and no balls are dropping. We recognize it in the culture, and many of us have picked it up as our birthright. That busyness, that incessant doing. I talk in the book about realizing I hadn't been able to sit through a single. Maybe not even a single episode of a TV show without doing something else simultaneously in the process. That busyness is our. My way, I think, our way of quelling all of our existential anxiety and keeping all of our feelings at bay. So last week, when I'm having sort of this reading your book, I'm like, and I'm not busy. I'm on vacation. I'm riding horses. I am busy doing different things, but it's like camp for adults. I was like, holy shit, My feelings are here. And I don't have any of my normal soothing tendencies of overwork and making lists and cleaning out drawers, whatever. All the crap that I do to keep myself away from my feelings. Everything came. And when we're so busy, we don't have a chance to be like, how do I even feel? And what's working for me and what's not? So that's, I think, an important thing for us to recognize is it keeps us stuck. It keeps us from doing this work. And then to go to the story, which you mentioned, I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. And this is part of this process that we take you through. But once you identify the story, and this is with all of your subconscious limiting beliefs, like, it hits, and you're like, ugh. Oh, that hurts. I hate that. And I don't want to believe it's true. And yet I know with all of my heart that I could, like, hang my whole life. Life on this hook for me. And this isn't the whole process, but part of it is identifying the underlying fear that's driving that story. And this is very painful and emotional work in many ways. So as someone who holds this story dearly, I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. I had to face the fact that underneath this fear is really my fear of loss of approval, which is big for a lot of women. And it's also fear of loss of control. And these are attached to my fear of loss of safety and security. And when I really started to look at the story and what I'm up to in my family, married and I have two sons in my work life over the years, it is that I don't know if I have any value to people if I'm not serving them in this way and proving my competence and utility to them day in and day out. And nobody has said this to me. My husband didn't like offer me a ring on our wedding day and say, I'm marrying you because I think you're gonna make my life really easy. And if you don't, you're out. It's not rational or logical, but that is my feeling is that I only have value to people in my utility. That's what this workbook is for. Really wrestle with that. Can I put this down? Can I stop modeling this to other women as an appropriate way to move through the world and then what it look like to choose something else. And that's what I'm really trying to do. And I'm trying to choose. I am stronger and more effective in the world with support. That's my. The story I want to replace this story with Life is more bountiful, abundant, juicy, delicious. When I accept support.

Jessica Ashley Gill (24:23)

What do you think for you that narrative comes from? Because I can, I have a very similar narrative and I can think of the childhood pieces that kind of correlated that narrative. That my inner child may have assumed the position of that role. Right. What parts of your childhood do you think led to that assumption?

Elise Luna (24:43)

So I think it's my childhood and I think it's the culture. Because I think in our culture we're often led to believe like this story is you and it's yours alone and it started with your family. And as I was doing some of this work and writing my book, I was thinking in a therapy session with my mom and I was like, going on. He was like, where did you learn to feel so scared to speak your truth? And like, where did you feel silence? And my. I had this like, it was my mother. And then I was like, I call BS on myself. My mother is filterless and has never tried to shut me up. So. But I think that that's our instinct is to be like, it's in the childhood. That said, I think the culture is so much stronger. I think it's so hard to parent against the culture. Just for what it's worth. So in my childhood, and I'm sure some of these messages were coming from my parents, but also from a world out there that felt large and uncertain and chaotic and scary. I was a highly performative child and that was self motivated for the most part. My parents sent me to a school without grades. This is what I mean. Like, as I started to sort of, like, excavate it, I was like, huh? I went to a hippie alternative school where we called our teachers by their first names and didn't have textbooks yet. I was highly looking for any external authority to approve of me or to tell me that I was smart, et cetera. And I got a lot of that external validation, which was very confirming for me. And I was just looking for any opportunity to sort of excel and prove myself. And it wasn't in the same way that my husband wasn't like, these are the criteria. This is why I think it also gets so confusing for women who are like, I didn't grow up in, like, a patriarchal, evangelical household. Like, where is this coming from? Right. I didn't get that. I didn't have any obvious triggers, But I think that I looked around and I was like, I gotta make some money, but I don't want to betray my own values, and my life needs to have meaning, and so I gotta excel, distinguish myself, and hope that someone will see me and make me safe. I think that's really where it came from. And make. Make everything okay. I think that was my mandate as a child. And, you know, I. We do some Persona work in the workbook. And, like, I got some Personas from my mom. I have a Persona called bag lady. Bethy. My mom went on, yeah, talk about this. Yeah. So. And this again, I think other people are gonna be like, oh, that's familiar. So my mom grew up in scarcity, in total lack. Oldest of seven kids in Iowa, and my dad has his own money stuff, but it's really my mom who has just, like, an irrational anxiety about money and ending up as a. The vernacular in the 80s was bag lady, but, like, living out of a shopping cart or out of a car again. I grew up in Montana, knowing nobody, and. And my mom, through, like, a friend of a friend of a friend, ended up going on the Donahue show with Gloria Steinem and Lily Tomlin in the 80s when I was a child to talk about her fear of becoming a bag lady. I just remember watching her. She got heckled. My dad is a physician, and someone in the audience was like, shut up, lady. But meanwhile, my mom did really know poverty. Like, she grew up in poverty, food insecurity, et cetera. But that is how I was raised around money. My mom's incredibly generous person, so she'll, like, write a check, and then it's like, oh, my God, I don't you know, just the sleep floods in, the scarcity floods in. I know we just went out for dinner. We can't afford it. Again, not pegged to anything rational, but that was the seesaw that I grew up on. And I found myself, particularly in my 20s, really letting that Persona, letting my own bag Lady Bethy just run riot in my life, berating me. How could you have bought that sweater? You have to take that sweater back. It had no bearing on what was actually happening in my financial life. But that is a Persona I still have. She still comes to play. But we give you some tools in the workbook for interviewing the Persona that comes. That's from Katie Hendricks work, really. It's beautiful work, actually, because you start to recognize that fear and a desire to create safety for you is really what these parts or Personas are activated to do. You can talk to them, you can get them to stand down, you can get them to. You can call them to service. When you're like, I'm going shopping, you know, whatever. When you need bag lady Bethy, she's there, she's ready to serve. She might even be willing to change her costume.

Jessica Ashley Gill (29:25)

I think it's so interesting too, because so many times we blend in the internal family system lens of everything. Like, we're so blended with those parts that we think it's a part of us. Or especially when that fear takes over. Even going back to your original narrative of like, I'm the only one who can do it all, like, I have to do it all. Like, this is how I become safe is if I handle everything. It feels so merged with us that even if we, our higher self, our conscious self is like, like, I know that's not true. I know there's another route. I can see all these other people who are super competent around me who can handle things, and I don't have to do it all. Like, why? Why can't I shake this intensity that I feel with this story? And that's why I love how much you guys are pulling apart the story on so many different levels. There's so many somatic practices of checking in throughout your body on every single level. Like, really sit with it. I mean, it's something we talk about in the TVM work all the time. It's letting your body process and metabolize the fear and the intensity around the story that your brain has wired to be its automatic reaction story to probably 90% of your day to day life. If you're looking outside of yourself and every single thing that happens you're going back to that story because that's the one that's going to keep us safe. So rewiring that is going to be a little bit of a challenge to uncouple all these parts, parts of self.

Elise Luna (30:48)

And you might. I know you have a whole vernacular, and maybe this is a test, maybe it's not. But what you'll also find as you're trying to put these stories down and you're becoming more conscious. So we can go to my story about, I'm the only one who. Who can do it right, so I should do it all. You start building your case, right? You look for all the confirming evidence for why this is really true as you try and do something different. So when you're at work and you recognize, oh, I suck at delegation, I rush to do things without giving anyone else an opportunity to do them first, et cetera. All the different practices that we do to keep these stories going in our lives, you're also. That's the part of you that's like you. There was a typo. You didn't do this how I wanted it done, right. Like all the parts of you that come in to try to shore up that story, just as you're trying to break it apart and to keep you stuck, keep you blocked. And I like your view that the universe is more beneficent and that it's sort of waiting for you to really be ready. But once you start getting clued in to what you're up to, we do this exercise, which I think you guys should use because I think it works well on some of these unconscious blocks. It's called teaching the class.

Jessica Ashley Gill (32:01)

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I was reading this to Daniel last night. I was like, we need to do this. This is so amazing.

Elise Luna (32:06)

It's so funny and so fun. And this is. I think it's step five or six of the process, but it's one of my favorite ones because it's hilarious and it makes it abundantly clear what you're up to. And the idea is that you need to teach a class on this story to a group of, like, a women's college. So essentially, you're. You're like, really going to try and pass on this story to the next generation, because I think for so many of us, it's. We struggle to make changes for ourselves. But when you're like, this is what you're teaching your daughter, your niece, your. These girls, you're like, oh, now I can actually feel emboldened to shift this because this this sucks. But you go and you imagine you're teaching this class of 20 year old women. So for purposes of this story, I'm the only one who can do it right, so I should do it all. Like you develop your curriculum, we help you do this and then you go and you, you orate, you teach a lecture to these, this captive audience about making sure this is true. And so for me, like my behaviors are that I make sure that I respond to all the school emails before my husband even has a chance to open them. So that way I can lock him out of every conversation. I can manage those relationships with the teachers and the administrators. I'm the only one who has the logins to manage the bus route or order hot lunch. So therefore I can confirm that I will keep doing it right. He doesn't have any chance to get involved. I've got it. And at work it's like I don't delegate. I don't give anyone any insight into my process so that they could possibly take a part of it away from me. I gatekeep information. You just start to understand if you do it in good faith and have fun with it, all the ways that you are keeping this story going and protecting this story as part of your identity in a way that makes it funny and ridiculous and it clues you into like specific actions that you can actually take. Now I slow down. I do not respond to every school email immediately. I give my husband a day to respond or I forward it to him. Take care of this. This one's on you. It doesn't matter. But like just bringing him in already has started to help equalize some of these dynamics and like the world didn't end.

Jessica Ashley Gill (34:23)

It's so good. When we moved into the house we're in now, we had to like set up all new bills. I was the only one that had the login. I would handle all bills. I'd pay everything first of the month because I trusted I would get everything done. And then I'd have my partner, Venmo, me or whatever to split or we pull out of our joint account or whatever it was. And when we moved in here, I was like this really scary for me, but I'm going to give you half the bills and I'm not even going to have the login. You're going to set it all up, you're going to do all of it and you're going to pay it each month and like let me know what I owe you. But I don't want any part of the process, and he just put it on autopay and everything's paid and everything's fine. And I'm like, why was I going through, like, five different accounts or seven different accounts every week to put everything away when I could have just fully given him the task?

Elise Luna (35:14)

Fear of loss of control, babe. I can feel my own anxiety rising as you're talking about this, but the somatic part is real. And being like, hi, fear. Okay, what is that really about? What happens? Who am I if I'm the person who accepts support? We're similarly wired, Jess, because we both. You like, you work for other people's brands. Like, I like that role.

Jessica Ashley Gill (35:38)

It's a good way to accomplish a lot and also hide.

Elise Luna (35:43)

Yes, a hundred percent. And to not have to take the pressure of being the, like, fully. You're pretty public, but, like, yeah, we have the same wiring and you just get to practice, like, your control and your excellence behind the scenes. No, I get it. I'm onto you. Like, we have the same stuff, but that's a big step. I think that's a really big step. And I applaud you. And I'm still working through a lot of. I'm still baby stepping my way to your level of excellence, I'll put it that way.

Jessica Ashley Gill (36:14)

I mean, and likewise, too. I think it's so interesting. We have a lot of entrepreneurs who want to be the face of their brands and companies and all the things. And we also have a lot of people who like working for businesses. They don't want to be the face, they don't want to be the public figure. And I think for some people, that's completely authentic. And for some people, it's a bit of, like, the hiding aspect. It's a lot safer when it's not hinged upon you, when you're not putting yourself out there. I mean, our social team every week is like, jess, can you record a tip for the TBM Instagram? And I'm like, yeah, sure, I can do it. But, like, also, I'll just put it on my page. That's my answer. I'll put it on my page. Because it feels somehow safer and more controlled. And I, like, know the audience. Whereas the TBM one still, after all these years, there's still like, that little part that's like, don't expose yourself too much. You never know what could happen. You know, you don't want to rock the boat in that way. One of the pillars of my money, authentic code, is wellness, which means nourishing my vitality, my life, Force my mind, my body, so I can feel my most energized, lit up, vibrant self. So when I had a call with the founders of Fatty15 who made the discovery of the C15 fatty acid molecule that literally transforms not only your energy, but your aging and metabolic processes, I was sold. C15, the pure ingredient that is in fatty 15, is the first essential fatty acid to be discovered in over 90 years. And it's imperative to our longevity and wellness. With over a decade of research and over a hundred studies, we now know that C15 strengthens our cells and is a key factor into healthy aging. Those who had lower levels of C15 in their body were aging faster and having more cellular fragility, which means a breakdown to almost every single system in your body. And in clinical studies taking fatty 15 has showed improved metabolic health, liver, red blood cell health, smoother functioning joints, deeper sleep, healthier hair, skin and nails. It also has three times the cellular benefit of Omega 3 or a regular fish oil. I've noticed a deeper sleep, steadier energy and just feeling more clear and resilient, less brain fog, more focused and better clear energy. Fatty 15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help support your long term health and wellness, especially as you age. You can get an additional 15 off their 90 day subscription starter kit by going to fatty15.com backslash TBM and using code TBMallCAPS at checkout. Again, that's code TBM for 15 off their 90 day subscription. This kind of goes into the envy and the pride chapter of it all, but talk a little bit about uncoupling this impulse to want to tear other people down and our judgments of others and then how we can kind of, I guess, in our own openness and compassion to others, make ourselves feel safer to step into those spaces more publicly.

Elise Luna (39:33)

This is so huge. And it's. It's rare to find a woman who isn't running this story to some extent a visible or public woman or woman who then ends up running this story because of what happens. And as you mentioned, this is the Pride chapter. And Pride and envy are very closely Venn diagrammed and they're also very connected to scarcity. So we live in a culture this is going to surprise exactly no one that destroys visible women and prides itself on putting women back in their place. Collectively, we can tolerate a certain amount of success and visible glory before it becomes too much. And we decide this woman has had enough and she needs to go. This is why we're buying Merch for comeback tours of women that we've destroyed. It's very rare, actually. It's like, almost impossible to find a woman who has maintained relevancy in the public eye without being destroyed or canceled or killed. Killed is an overstatement. But, like, reputationally. And reputation's important because when, you know, the point of my book is that women are programmed to perform their goodness in the world, whereas men are performed to. Are programmed to perform their power. And so for men, they can do terrible things. It doesn't matter. We don't care, as long as we perceive them as powerful. But to be weak, feminine, et cetera, for a man is sort of the worst thing that you can be. But for a woman, you just need some reputational damage and she's done. You just have to say, she's a bad friend, toxic co worker, abusive boss, horrible mother. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even matter if there's any validity. That's enough. She's done. And she will often just take care of it herself and disappear herself. And this is the part of the culture that I think, as women, we really have to take responsibility for, because women are out there cutting off heads with the same fervor, if not more than men. This is often the source of woman on woman hate. And so pride and envy are correlated because, again, if you're dealing with people's unconscious, undiagnosed envy, and they just see you as this irritating person who's getting away with something that they would never allow themselves to do or has something that they don't think they can have, they are going to come for you. You're too triggering, you're too irritating. You have to be dealt with. It's a shadow projection on conscious action. These women don't know that they're dealing with undiagnosed, unconscious envy, but that's what's happening. So when you're talking about pride and being seen, suddenly you're visible to a whole bunch of people as having something that they might want fractionally or fully, and you are gonna get a lot of undiagnosed envy coming your way. You might get really valid feedback and criticism. That's sort of a different thing. They have a different energy. But you're gonna get a huge amount of projection. That's what happens to the more visible you are, the more projection you're gonna get. So a lot of women, I put myself in this camp. It's not that I mind. I don't have any sort of. I like doing podcasting. I Mean, we were talking about this before we started. I don't do a video podcast. I just want to be in people's ears. I don't need to be seen. I don't want to be recognized. I don't want that. I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be the woman out front in that way. But of course, I want people to read my books and engage with my work. And I like interviewing people and introducing them to interesting healers and thinkers, et cetera. And of course, I want that to have ever more potency in the culture. But it's really difficult for me to distinguish between, like, what needs to be me and what cannot be me. And part of the not wanting it to be me is that I don't want to inspire people's envy and get destroyed. And the more visible I am, the more visible you are, the more likely you are to get that type of projection, just part of it. And then I mentioned it also aligns with scarcity. There is a lot of scarcity in our culture, right? For women, there's only one. There's maybe toucanism, but there aren't enough expanders. There aren't enough examples of women really killing it in the world. We have more, but we're not there. So what happens to us is we see a woman who has something, we're just cued for scarcity. So if she has it, it means she's got it. And the only way I'm gonna get it is if I dethrone her, decapitate her, or move her out of the way. And so that's how you get this really vicious cycle of women on women hate and policing. And a big reason, I think, that we're not where we should be in the culture in terms of cultural power and prominence and having the right number of seats in our state legislatures, et cetera, and in the presidency is because we can't get on behind each other out of this scarcity, envy, pride loop. And so the more we can stop it, the bigger, I think, the more expanded we will become.

Jessica Ashley Gill (44:42)

It's so interesting because one exercise I've been sort of playing with myself recently is finding expanders of people who. Because ultimately, for me, the ultimate fear is that if I am too visible, I'll be cut down and my livelihood will be in jeopardy. The thing I love doing more than anything else in the entire world, what I think about 24, seven in my career will be pulled away from me, and I won't have that anymore. And that is too terrifying to process. So I dip my toe in being vulnerable when I feel safe to or in the situations that align. And I'm getting better and better in that. And I'm sure the podcast listeners who've heard me when I first started to now can definitely see that growth trajectory. But I'm definitely by no means all the way there. But recently I've been looking at a lot of expanders who have had both the backlash moments, have had the Reddit threads, have had the nasty comments, have had all this stuff and still were able to sustain their living or continue their calling or continue their path. This is a male, but was on such a big scale. Like Benson Boone, this huge musical artist became very polarizing. He didn't really share anything of nothing super negative. People just didn't like his music, thought he wasn't a very good songwriter. And simultaneously as he's getting the most hate and backlash online, he is selling out arena tours. And that was so eye opening for me to kind of look at the both and like, how is he handling it? What is he doing with that? And again, this is an example of a male. And I think it's really important to look at the female examples, but then looking at someone like call her daddy, who also has a lot of negative hate online and is still able to connect with her community to find the people that love her, to go on tours, to have a booming business. So I think for me the sweet spot is not to eradicate the possibility of ever anyone disliking me. Even though that feels so terrifying. It's saying, okay, it may not be for everyone and can I still find my people? Can I still find the people that my gifts are gonna help in the world?

Elise Luna (46:47)

Yeah. And even that statement, it is so terrifying that someone might not like me. That is like a big one for me. And yet at the same time, you have to recognize the absurdity of being universally liked. Is there anyone who is universally liked? Some people are gonna dislike us, and that's just the truth. But there's something about the way that some people are just like, I am gonna teflon this away from myself. It takes like a certain mindset and I'm just gonna keep going. That's something I think for some of us to learn. And then the deep shadow work, which I think is so important for everyone as you gain influence in the world, and particularly for any of us who are working with spirituality or personal development or personal growth, which is really attending to that part of you that's Terrified of being displeasing and really like sitting. And again, this is why the workbook is called choosing wholeness over goodness. Owning all those disclaimed parts of us. Owning the fact that yeah, sometimes I can be it mean and that's okay, I'm human rather than constructing a very rigid personality. But like, I meant that everyone likes me. Nobody has ever had a bad experience of me. I'm the kindest person in the world. Like I gotta defend that identity. I think for you people like you and me to become durable enough to live in this world publicly, I do so much work around. Why am I so scared of this? Why is this piece of criticism so wounding? Am I out of my integrity? Am I in my integrity? And that level of shadow work and like dealing with those disowned parts is what keeps us safe and keeps the people who are tuning in to what we say safe. And when people don't do their shadow work, which is very common in our community, I think they can start really harming people and harming themselves.

Jessica Ashley Gill (48:47)

Foreign. You've heard us talk about our pathway membership, but what actually is it? It is an all access membership where you can get every single workshop that we've ever created. All of our deep imaginings, which are our reprogramming audios to help you manifest. You can access it on the desktop or in the TBM app on your phone directly. We of course have our foundational workshop, such as our how to manifest workshop, which takes you step by step through this neural manifestation process to actually unblock, expand and take align action to connect with your manifestations. Our how to be magnetic workshop, our inner child and shadow workshops. And then of course we have a workshop. If you are in a rut, if you're in a rock bottom, if you're an up level, perhaps you need to set boundaries. Maybe you want to focus specifically on the block of money or love. It is all in there. And then twice a year as a community, we gather for our challenges. Our challenges are one of the most effective parts of the process because you get accountability. It is really a handheld experience in how to work through whatever the theme of that year's challenge is. And now to my absolute favorite part of our membership, which I think in and of itself would be worth the entire weight of the membership if we just had this alone. Our deep imagining library. This Library encompasses over 60 neural reprogramming audio tracks, their self hypnosis track that will really support you in any step of this journey. If you're needing calming nervous system regulation, unblocking with a specific test or trigger, going through a difficult time processing a big emotion. Or maybe you just want reinforcing how to reinforce those neural pathways of confidence, abundance, self worth, deservingness and connection with your dream life. And not only that, if you go to the app we just launched Deep Imagining Playlist where we're grouping different themes of DIS together. So no matter what you're going through, you have something for you. And we're constantly dropping new playlists as well as brand new Deep Imaginings. And if you need more support in your process, you can go to our brand new video series Channelings with Lacy where she touches on the exact energetics that are going on right now in manifestation and how it may apply to your life. So obviously I am a huge fan of this membership. The peace of mind I get from being able to have all the tools I need at my disposal no matter where I'm at with my life. If shit's hitting the fan, if I'm feeling dysregulated, if I'm needing to come back to my center, if I'm needing to brainstorm or daydream or connect with what my vision for my future is, every single tool is in there to support me. And don't just take my word for it. We have thousands of testimonials of people who have had incredible success stories with these tools. So take the guesswork out of your manifestation process and get real tools that are going to give you real results. For podcast listeners only, you can use code expanded all caps E X P A N D e D for 20% off your first month of the pathway. Join now and have your best year yet. There's so many ways to, I think in examining that fear within myself and going on this journey of working to heal that, that has allowed me so much more grace, compassion, understanding and not biting my tongue, but really understanding the source. If I ever had judgment of other people and really flipped it on its head like I remember my young twenties, if someone shined too big, there was I had a judgment. I made a little quippy remark. I was not a safe space for someone who wanted to become big or visible in any way because I thought that was impossible to do without getting so much judgment and ridicule. And now, having examined so much of that, you're not going to hear that come out of my mouth. Not, not from a place of self silencing, but because I genuinely just don't see it like that anymore. That intensity and that protector part that Used to need that to sit with my own shadow. It doesn't need it anymore. Like I can genuinely look at anyone, even if I'm like, they're not necessarily for me or I'm not into that. It feels neutral. There's no activation. I don't have that from doing that deep shadow work. And so I just think if you are someone who has that fear, it's so important to really examine it. So you can then model that to yourself, to others, obviously children, community, co workers, all the things. But also to yourself that it is safe because you're not going to judge you. I always run that through my head, like, would I say this to someone? No. So why am I worried about this? Why am I thinking about this? Why am I up at night about this situation?

Elise Luna (53:35)

No, a hundred percent. I think unfortunately doing that level of self inquiry and self work, like the response, it only gets bigger. And I'm sure this is true of your work with manifestation. It's not like you get to the point where you're like, I'm good, I'm done. If anything, it gets harder and steeper and the low hanging fruit has been picked. And I feel that way about my work for myself. It only becomes more important, harder, like more light, more shadow. And that this is like a. Has to be sort of like a good faith effort to really, really tumble that work to the ground. So it's, and it's interesting going back to what we were saying about the women who are not letting themselves be taken down. So it's like taking some of that and saying, okay, what is there for me to learn from? How can I? Am I in my own integr? It's like you gotta bypass some of the external noise, otherwise you'll never be able to show up. It's incapacitating and debilitating. Bypass that while saying, okay, there is something really big for me to do here with this consistent feedback or the way that people are experiencing me or this massive misstep that I need to own and acknowledge that I think is.

Jessica Ashley Gill (54:53)

The biggest part too. It's allowing both of those things in simultaneously. The humility to have space for. Oh, right, I remember, I can always improve. It's not a fixed situation. I can always make room for change or improvement. And I think that is something that has been really powerful. Even if I'm not good at this right now, or they don't like this or whatever, I can work on that. Do I want to work on that? Yeah. Okay. That's exciting to me. Great. Let's go in that alignment.

Elise Luna (55:23)

That's the work of life, right?

Jessica Ashley Gill (55:27)

What is something that has been on your heart in crafting this book and processing through all of these parts of selv? I mean, really getting like a masterclass in so many inner child and shadow and Personas and parts and all the things. What has been, I guess, one aspect that you're. You're grappling with that maybe you haven't shared or talked about.

Elise Luna (55:51)

It's a beautiful question. I think that sort of what's on my heart and what drives a lot of my work with this book and I'm working on my next book, which isn't so directly about gender and about women. It's. It's that women are exceptional across every factor in the way that we perform at work, in the way that we perform for our families, and the way that we perform even athletically. Ashley Montague is this anthropologist who, in the 1950s, he wrote this New York Post story called the Natural Superiority of Women. And he took a lot of guff for it, but at the same time he was like, it's just universally true. Women are more durable, they live longer, they're outperforming boys and all of these tests, et cetera. I'm the mother of two sons. I'm married to a wonderful man. I love my older brother. I love men. And my work is like very embracing of men and not blaming of men. I think men are very much victims of our culture as well, and sometimes more pernicious ways. But I really think that when we're talking about wholeness, that women have all the pieces and many of us are know what it is to be in our masculine and know what it is to be in our feminine, where I think a lot of men are scared of their feminine. Like, what we need in our culture right now is not for women to be more like men, but for men to be more like women, truly. And to let that creative, nurturing, loving energy come up fully. And so what's on my heart is just how do we get out of our own ways and out of the ways of each other, to really stand behind each other? Because I think women have the keys. Not. You know, I sort of chafe when people are like, well, we'll replace the patriarchy with a matriarchy. No, I'm not interested in a dominance based, oppressive scheme where women have all the power. No, same thing, different day. But like, I think women have the keys to what does this look like to do this in an affiliative balanced, partnership style, way where we're all bringing our gifts to bear as much as we can. Look around and identify a lot of nefarious actors. And I'm not saying that those people don't exist, but I think we have way more power than we think we do to self actualize and clear all of this clutter out and really show up in the world and show up for each other. And so that's what I want to see. I think we have it. We have it. No one's going to give it to us. We actually have it. If we can just learn how to use it. I think it's going to happen, Jess. I think it's happening. That's what I want. It's nothing.

Jessica Ashley Gill (58:37)

I so feel that. And that no one's going to give it to us, that we already have it. I think that feeling almost just gave me chills because I think that is something that a lot of times people look so outside of themselves for permission. And that's really all the work you're doing in this book, right? It's like stop looking for permission to be this archetype of what you thought was going to keep you safe. Create the safety in the ways that you need to do for your own well being. But these ideals of morphing into something different is never going to get us there. We just need to acknowledge that we have this power. If you are envious of someone, if you are looking to someone else, if you are, are interested in something, there is a reason for it. You know, those seeds are planted for a reason. And so often we waste so much time questioning it and questioning if we're good enough to do it, if we're the right person, if we're the right vessel, if we're the, you know, oh, I have to prepare all these things ahead of time. It has to come out in this way. And just taking that action, just continuing to show up, trusting that you'll tweak and iterate as you need to, but like just go for it.

Elise Luna (59:50)

Knowing you said the word trust and that's everything. It's like trusting the universe and trusting ourselves and coming. I think in time we. There's some wounding there, but really starting to trust each other. I think that's all we need. I do.

Jessica Ashley Gill (60:04)

Thank you, Elise. Where can everyone find the books? Connect with you, all the things. Thanks.

Elise Luna (60:10)

So on our best behavior. Available wherever you get your books. And the companion workbook is Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness. And I also wrote a book recently with Phil Stutz. Who's the author of the tools called True and False Magic, and I think people might like that. And then I host a podcast called Pulling the Thread, which is conversations with really compelling thinkers and thought leaders and healers and therapists. And I have a substack of the same name. And I'm on Instagram at Elise Luna. But that's my. My least favorite outlet. Come to the podcast or substack or read a book.

Jessica Ashley Gill (60:47)

I love also the permission for a variety of platforms. There's so much pressure, I think, to, like, grow on certain platforms. And it's like, if that's not your, like, place that you love sharing, who. Who gives a about that? Like, build on the places and spaces that your heart sings. That's what's gonna move the needle.

Elise Luna (61:08)

100. Hear, hear.

Jessica Ashley Gill (61:10)

So good. Thank you.

Elise Luna (61:11)

Thank you.

Jessica Ashley Gill (61:19)

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Elise is so fantastic. It is always so wonderful getting to connect with her. And after recording this, I was like, okay. There are more layers to uncover and unblock. So if you are someone who is trying to stand into their own essence, their own authenticity, their own full expression of self that feels fully in alignment with what they desire, and there's still those parts that feel fearful. This would be my DI protocol for you. Meet your shadow Di. Get to know the part of yourself that you are most afraid of people seeing, the part that you think you won't be loved or accepted for. And then I would do worst case scenario. What happens? Worst case scenario, if that negative situation that you have in your mind's eye of why you're not showing up fully happens, how could you become resource? How could you become resilient? How can you stand up for yourself? How you be okay? Worst case scenario debunks this every time. Every time I'm at a new layer of being more visible. Worst case scenario is like my holy grail. And then I would do the self love Di, or the abundant life Di, or even the new beliefs reinforcing Di pull in some reinforcing where you're really sitting in that magnetic energy when you know the power that you bring to a space, the energy that you bring to a space, the potency that your energy alone is dropping in when you are coming from that place of authenticity. I would add in one of those DI's or even dream life DI is a good one for that too. Okay, we'll see you next week.