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A few days before OpenClaw exploded, I recorded a prescient conversation with Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI and co-founder of DeepMind. We talked about what happens when AI starts to seem conscious – even if it isn’t. Today, you get to hear our conversation.

Mustafa has been sounding the alarm about what he calls “seemingly conscious AI” and the risk of collective AI psychosis for a long time. We discussed this idea of the “fourth class of being” – neither human, tool, nor nature – that AI is becoming and all it brings with itself.

Jump to:

(03:38) Why consciousness requires the ability to suffer

(06:52) “Your empathy circuits are being hacked”

(10:47) A fourth class of being

(13:41) Why market forces push toward seemingly conscious AI

(37:48) The case for going faster

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