← Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
135. Sarah Ann Macklin: Self-Compassion and Sustainable Behavior Change
01:08:05
Loading summary
Transcript313 lines
- [00:03]
A
Welcome to Xtend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah. A podcast dedicated to cutting edge science research tools and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21 and trained and board certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results. When it comes to your health span, we are living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world renowned experts offering you a step by step guide to proactively avoid disease and most importantly, extend your health span. In today's episode, I'm going to be sitting down with my friend Sarah Ann Macklin. She's a nutritionist, a model, a researcher and host of the podcast Live well Be well. We're going to explore self compassion being the starting point for real health change. From her high pressure years in the modeling industry to her education in biochemistry and mental health, Sarah's journey reveals how stress, self worth, diet and our inner dialogue shape every decision that we make. We dive into the science of lifestyle medicine, the psychology of behavior change, and why understanding yourself may be the most powerful tool that that you have for improving your mental and physical health. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me on XTEND today.
- [01:38]
B
I'm so happy to be here.
- [01:40]
A
All the way from London.
- [01:41]
B
All the way from London.
- [01:42]
A
I met you at an amazing dinner that our friend Rupi put on who was on my podcast and he had dinner at my home and he decided to do the same kind of like dinner party in London for me, which was so sweet of him and he invited you and it was such an incredible meeting with you because you have an incredible story and I couldn't wait for you to come visit here in Los Angeles.
- [02:01]
B
I'm honored. I love that we did it within six weeks.
- [02:04]
A
I know. Crazy. I think we, we figured out at that dinner you're going to be in la. And now here we are in the podcast studio. The world of podcasting gets smaller and smaller.
- [02:14]
B
Yeah.
- [02:15]
A
Well, I absolutely love having you on this podcast and I would love to kind of start the conversation with you about, you know, I have a lot of patients that come through here, hundreds, thousands maybe come to Next Health. Right. And obviously I really feel like we have one of the best patients kind of systems to get people healthy, but people still struggle. And even though we give people all the right advice that we know is based on their blood tests and they're going to be able to move the needle, a lot of people have a lot of trouble taking the first step. So I mean, what do you see from your vantage point and your kind of experience as being the number one reason people struggle with getting healthy?
- [02:54]
B
The number one reason I think people really struggle with being healthy. And something that I've seen over the last 10 years of my practice and myself is people always choose it from a place of lack. And a big part of that is self compassion. And naturally anyone who's English listening to this might instantly cringe. You guys are much more open to this term and much more connected, which I think is an amazing thing. And I've come to learn how important it is. But I always believe if something feels uncomfortable, you should lean into the cringe because that's actually where the work needs to be done. And if you think about why we go and make choices for our health, ultimately we all want to the same outcome. We all want to feel better, we all want to look better, but we all want to live longer. Yeah, we want to be 80 and be able to feel that we can still bend down and pick something up. Like we, ultimately that's what we want, but we never do it from a place of abundance. Normally it's because we're not feeling good about ourselves. And that has, you know, that's the upstream effect that I'm seeing a lot. And our mindset impacts so much on our health choices. When I started, I changed my career from a high fashion model to a nutritionist. And I started seeing clients in practice. It was interesting. I was like, I can't just hand them a diet plan. I'd see their biomarkers, they come to me with what their goals were. I want to lose weight, I want to feel more energized. I'm high performance. But like three months later they'd be back in the same position. And ultimately we live in a, in a society now where most people know how to eat well. We know the basics. And I think no matter what field you're in, the one thing that we all agree on is that we should reduce ultra processed foods.
- [04:29]
A
Right.
- [04:30]
B
It doesn't matter what camp of the, of the line that you sit on regarding health. That's one that we all kind of come together on. And I think if we all did.
- [04:36]
A
That well, there are some people out there, I think they're paid by the food companies. Say the opposite is crazy.
- [04:43]
B
Yeah.
- [04:43]
A
But yeah, all listeners, please just swear off ultra processed food.
- [04:46]
B
Yes, that's good. I think that's what everyone who has some common sense would say. Right? Because that's nothing, that's extreme, that's basic, that's eating whole foods. And it's interesting people know that, but why do they struggle to implement it? And that's why we're missing out the mindset. And that's such a huge piece. Because nutrition or health, it's all connected to psychology, it's all connected to how you feel about yourself. And so I believe that self compassion is kind of the bricks and the mortar of the foundation for your health. And once you can build that and make the right choices for yourself, everything else becomes a little bit easier. But we're never taught that. We're never taught that at school. We're never taught that from our parents. We're taught to be compassionate to others and to be kind to others, which does a huge amount for our self worth. But very rarely are we taught to be kind to ourselves. And so I depict this in a way of your children. You would ultimately want to give them the best, you know, you know so much about health and nutrition that you're not going to just give them huge amounts of ultra processed food. But on the weekend, if they're like, I want some ice cream, of course you're going to give them some ice cream because you're like, well, that's absolutely fine. But if they ask it again and again and again in the same day, your natural instinct is to say no. Right, right. And that's not because you want to be mean. That's because you generally care about them and you know that too much is going to make them irritable and not sleep. And over time that's going to increase, you know, weight problems and all of those things. So you do it from a place of love, but when we flip that to ourselves, it's very different. And so for me, I try to get people to understand that mindset as like the first step before we think about all the other things.
- [06:28]
A
Wow, that's so powerful. Because, you know, I think as a doctor, you know, I just want to give people like, here's your prescription of things to do. Right. Stop eating ultra processed food, get seven hours of sleep. Right. Go walk 8,000 steps a day. Never do I start the conversation with self compassion and how do you feel about yourself right now? And you know, you said something very interesting there. I want to dive into that a little Bit more, which was coming from a place of abundance with your health, not coming from a place of lacking. Right. Like I think you're right. A lot of people seek our advice when they feel like they're lacking something. They're lacking their energy, they're lacking gut health, they are not sleeping well. But I think that, you know, coming from a place of abundance is an incredible mindset shift. And so how does, how does someone look at their health and wellness journey as coming from a place of abundance? What does that look like?
- [07:21]
B
It's not easy. Like I say, self compassion is one of the most courageous things you can do because you have to step into the places that is difficult. You have to really look at yourself. And that's really hard because the whole point of self compassion is it's about being kind to yourself in those moments that can feel really, really tough. And that's why you build resilience. Like resilience is such a big word right now.
- [07:43]
A
Right?
- [07:43]
B
And I define self compassion as three things. One is self empathy. We understand what empathy is because we can connect to other people. But self empathy is when you can turn that into yourself and actually feel and try and understand where you are. And there's no right or wrong answer. But connecting to that is a really important thing. Mindfulness is the next thing. We all know how important mindfulness is, but how often are we present? Do we make rational decisions when we're stressed? We don't make the most logical decisions because we go into fight or flight. And we live in a chronically state stress environment. So trying to be mindful and that's very hard when you're being critical. So that's why self empathy is really important. Because self empathy grounds you enough to connect to mindfulness. And then that shifts you into the resilience phase where you're like, okay, I'm going to act on this, I'm going to take some action. That's a very courageous act. And so that's how I look at self compassion. And so for people to start trying to understand where they are, it's like asking themselves a very simple question of how do I feel?
- [08:46]
A
How do I feel?
- [08:47]
B
How do I feel? Because a lot of us live in our minds, we're very cerebral and we'll try and overthink a lot of things, but a lot of us become very disconnected to our bodies. And so trying to get us into more of that phase of like, how do I actually feel? Can feel really uncomfortable for a lot of people. And so then starting to Question that is a really big part of the kind of self compassion formula.
- [09:10]
A
Yes, for sure. Now you sound like you have personal experience with this and you've had a journey yourself. You know, you mentioned a little earlier that you were a high fashion model and then you went to learn nutrition. Right?
- [09:23]
B
So opposite.
- [09:24]
A
Yeah, I mean like, you know, I mean no offense to the high fashion models out there, but you know, I think of modeling as maybe, you know, for most models this is like, you know, their nutrition is terrible. I see a few as patients here and basically it's like how do I get the least amount of calories in as possible all the time? And it's usually a diet composed of just junk food for the most part. I think a lot of times. And people are getting better obviously like I think you said, as there's this movement of people talking about the negatives of ultra processed food, people are trying to eat healthier. But it just seems like, you know, maybe there's some history there in your life that kind of brought you to this conclusion.
- [10:02]
B
Yeah, I don't believe anyone is on a mission without their personal story behind it. You know, if you're very mission driven normally it's because of something that has happened to you and you've gone after it to try and understand yourself. And that was basically my story. I mean it's interesting. I was a high fashion model, but this all started years before without me even realizing. So I was, you know, for me I loved school. I loved the, the sociable side. I was a very sociable person. But I always felt very different at school. I'd always be told I was very frustrating child, be asked to leave the class, you know, wouldn' stop chatting, would zone out all the time and felt like a bit of a failure at school. I didn't ever feel that people understood or I understood myself. Then out of nowhere I got spotted and as a model and you know, I didn't even know what that meant at that point. I came from a really small place outside London, so these things weren't normal. And overnight went to London and had a really successful modeling career.
- [11:02]
A
How old were you when you get spotted?
- [11:04]
B
I was 16.
- [11:05]
A
Oh, you were very young.
- [11:05]
B
I was really young. I'd moved to London by the time I was 18. I was shooting high fashion brands and also like the big commercial brands as well, which is where you earn your money and modeling. And then, you know, I went to Paris, I went to Milan and then I settled in New York and I lived in New York for a while. And it was at that height of my modeling career where social media started. And it was really interesting because I say now that modeling is no different to the social media of today. Because modeling over 12 years ago was a very small niche industry that was high on steroids. Everyone felt like they were having an emotional breakdown, but we didn't quite know what that meant. But it was normalized. You know, the comparison was day to day. I would be going to a casting with the girl that I was living with. And you're in this ultra competitive environment. You're never taught about health. Mental health, especially for people in England, was just never spoken about. I started to become more attuned to it when I moved here because people were way more open about it. And I would find it really difficult to have that conversation because it was a very stigmatized thing. And the high pressure environment that I lived in, ultimately my body just stopped one day on set and I had rye gourds, which kind of feels like you're having a bit of a seizure but your body is shaking. Because my kidney had urosepsis, so it was pushing and rejecting everything. And then I got rushed into hospital. I had E. Coli, I had urosepsis, I had temper cysts in my womb. They found I was internally bleeding. There was just so many things happening with my body. And I was 23 at this point, so I was really young. And all I remember, I remember they had to helicopter. I came back to London by this point, they had a helicopter, one drug, one antibiotic that was left from Scotland down to the UK to treat me. And I remember, you know, a week after being in hospital having all these different doctors, like the cardio doctor and the gyne doctor and the renal doctor, and kind of sitting there and looking at them all thinking, wow, everything is so in like the silos of health, you know, they're trying to treat what the problem is. Little did I know that it wasn't just like one thing. It was like an accumulation of intense stress. And that all came from not feeling good enough. And then my dad had a brain hemorrhage six months later. And I remember getting that call and going back to see him. I was back in New York at that point and thinking when that call happened, how frustrated I was that he'd had a brain hemorrhage because he wasn't looking after his health. And it was interesting. That frustration I never had with myself. You know, I was. I nearly lost my life. But I. For me, it was a blink of an eye. But for My dad, the fear of losing him caused, like, a huge emotional distress, as you can imagine. So that made me want to rethink everything. And I was thinking, you know, I'm. I'm not in the best health. Like, what? How can I get better? And over 10 years ago, like, health nutrition wasn't as big as it is today. There wasn't as many kind of sources to turn to. It wasn't that common to speak about. And so I thought the only way I could go back is to understand with food, because that was one of the biggest kind of factors, as you know, within modeling, that is always told to eat less and to reduce everything that you've got and to try and have the smallest calorie diet. And I was thinking, this is the only thing that I can really pinpoint right now. So I'm going to go back and learn about it. And as I went back to university to my Bachelor of Science in nutritional science, six weeks in, it felt like a Legally Blonde moment. I literally walked in and everyone looked at me, and I was thinking, I don't know if I belong to be here because I've had this successful career.
- [14:30]
A
And now I went, this is London or New York?
- [14:32]
B
This is in London.
- [14:33]
A
So you went back to London?
- [14:33]
B
So I went back to London. I left New York, went back to London and walked in and everyone kind of looked at me, what are you doing here? I was like, what am I doing here? I don't fit in here. And I had all these past fears of how much I didn't like school. And I was thinking, maybe I just don't align to be here either. And it was my biochemistry teacher that I went in and said to her, look, I'm gonna drop out because I'm not smart. And she said, huh? What do you mean you're not smart? And I was like, look, I'm just. I should not have been here. And she was like, but you are smart. And that just for me, that I felt so uncomfortable someone saying that word to me, because I'd never heard that before. And she said, why would you say that? And I was like, oh, I've been told that my whole life. And then also as a model, you're always, like, popped into this stereotypical field, you know, as well, right? So I found that really difficult. And she said, you're not. You are smart. And I was like, why would you say that? And she said, look, I think the reason why you're zoning out and you're struggling is your neurodivergent what does that mean?
- [15:31]
A
Yeah.
- [15:31]
B
And she was like, well, dyslexia is a very kind of natural way of getting some words mixed up. You're also studying part biochemistry. Probably the hardest thing for your brain if you've never understood it. And so she took me to have a diagnosis. They told me I was. And that was my first compassionate moment where actually I felt good enough because I understood myself. Somebody had shown me empathy. Somebody had said, no, you're not stupid, you are smart, but your brain just works slightly differently, and this is how you understand yourself. And I was like, whoa, I've never had that feeling. No one's ever seen me in that way. I didn't understand myself. And it's bizarre when somebody is explaining how you feel and you do not understand it, but you're going, oh, yeah, that's me. So it was this amazing moment, and I'm always very thankful to her for that moment because that changed everything. And I became really interested in mental health with nutritional science. And what I learned over that time was I never felt good enough my whole life. You know, I never felt good enough at school because I was told that. And then as soon as I was given a chance with modeling.
- [16:35]
A
Yeah.
- [16:36]
B
I threw everything into it to be the best.
- [16:39]
A
Right.
- [16:40]
B
I had the best diet, I had the best workout routine I had. I didn't want to let it go, but it all came from a place of not feeling good enough.
- [16:47]
A
Yeah.
- [16:48]
B
And I never knew that. You know, for me, success in the Oxford Dictionary, when I read about it, was fame, wealth, and social status. That's how it's explained. And I had that at a really young age. But I wasn't successful because I was so. I wasn't happy. And so I find it really interesting that, like, we have these parameters to fixate on to be there in our health regime or be there in our success. But actually, if it comes from a place of lack, that isn't healthy and that isn't successful. And so for me, like, getting to that point of understanding what it means to feel good enough and doesn't mean you have to love yourself, but just doing it from a place of being your own best friend.
- [17:26]
A
Right.
- [17:27]
B
It changes everything.
- [17:28]
A
Yeah.
- [17:29]
B
And so for me, that's where my research ended up, like, wanting to go down into.
- [17:33]
A
I love it. You know, I think there's a lot of parallels. Very different, but parallels with what I experienced, because I also, you know, in my medical career, I started this functional medicine career 10 years ago, and for the first time, I feel like it's coming from a place of like, you know, like, I really want to do this and it's abundance for me versus, like, I have to do it because, you know, I trained in medicine, so what am I going to do? You know, that kind of a thing. And so, like for you, when you found that you had this dyslexia issue, it finally explained to you that you needed to. The reason why you felt this way about yourself, that and the reason you kind of became a model was because you felt like you weren't smart. So this was something that gave you something that you were good at, which.
- [18:15]
B
I didn't think was even an option.
- [18:17]
A
Right.
- [18:17]
B
Like, I was so lucky that I was spotted. So people say, oh, was it modeling that destroyed you? And I'm like, no, it saved me. Yeah, like, it totally saved me because it was the first time that it made. It made me feel like I was good at something. But because I had no self worth and no self compassion, I never understood the boundaries of it. If I had more of that, I may have been able to handle that career completely differently.
- [18:40]
A
Right.
- [18:40]
B
And so I think, like, knowing that you are good enough is so important in all the decisions and decisions. If it's coming from abundance.
- [18:48]
A
Yes.
- [18:48]
B
Then you're going to have such different outcome.
- [18:50]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And so when you see, you know, you look at your other friends that are models and you see kind of what they're doing. Were you talking to them about this? Were you trying to like explain to them like what you were going through?
- [19:02]
B
No, no, no. Because also I felt that I was given this amazing. Which was an amazing opportunity. And so I think when you feel that you're. You're becoming successful in something. I had success at a very young age, which is also quite rare.
- [19:14]
A
Right.
- [19:15]
B
You feel that you cannot complain because you're. I'm so grateful to be here. But obviously the pressures are so intense and you don't really have the emotional maturity to understand. You don't have the emotional maturity to understand the pressures that you're under or emotional regulation. You don't know any of that. So you just say yes to everything until you literally burn out for sure. Whereas now I'd be so different. I would be like, why? You know, that doesn't feel right for me. And I'd speak honestly, but I've got the vocabulary that. The emotional granularity that you need to have to understand how you feel and express it. It's quite rare.
- [19:47]
A
Yeah.
- [19:48]
B
And you really only get that as you're older.
- [19:49]
A
Yeah.
- [19:50]
B
So I Think like, I. It's only been in the last kind of seven years I've understood this journey and I was in it. I had no idea. This is how I felt. I never had the language to explain it.
- [20:02]
A
Yeah.
- [20:03]
B
So.
- [20:03]
A
And then. So what did you do next? So you. You decided to learn nutrition and then what happened?
- [20:07]
B
So I learned nutrition and then. So I got a first, which was massive for me because thinking I was gonna drop out of school, then all of a sudden getting, you know, a really good grade for me gave me a massive boost.
- [20:19]
A
Wow.
- [20:19]
B
And it really made me start to realign my thinking. So first I got really connected to mental health with nutrition, because 10 years ago, you know, people understood that nutrition was important for physique and going to the gym and how you looked. That's how I always looked at it, especially being a model. But then I was like, wow, it can affect your mental health. And Felice Jacker had, you know, done the SMILES trial around that time. And that was the first ever randomized controlled trial that showed that food could treat depression. And it was the SMILES trial.
- [20:48]
A
Can you describe that trial for me? Like, what was she testing?
- [20:51]
B
Yeah. So she was basically wanting to find out whether if you had depression, like chronic depression, not just low mood, people that were chronically depressed, if you could help reverse it with food. It hadn't ever been done before, and she was really, really interested in this area. And so she had two different groups and a control group. So she had one group that were given a Mediterranean diet, but modified Mediterranean diet. So it was, think about the Mediterranean diet and steroids. They had to have between like 5 and 8 grams of whole grains a day, oily fish, lots of olive oil, but the basics of a Mediterranean diet. The second group literally was just the control group, and they had not the Mediterranean diet, their normal diet, and they had a befriending group. So somebody that would go and speak to just about normal things. It wasn't a therapist. It was just someone that would say, how have you been today? Oh, you know, I've been. I've been fine. Like, should we play a board game? And just very, like a very placebo controlled group. But they did have a befriending group. I also found this quite interesting.
- [21:48]
A
Yeah.
- [21:49]
B
They found out after 12 weeks of the trial that a third of the people in the food that had the modified Mediterranean diet overcame that chronicle depression.
- [21:59]
A
Wow.
- [21:59]
B
Just from food.
- [22:00]
A
Just from the food.
- [22:01]
B
And so that was one of the first trials to show. But they also showed that the profending group, it was like 6 or 8%, I can't remember. They also overcame their depression and it's never really been looked into, but I'm like, why is that? I mean it's a small percentage, but it's still, is still important to acknowledge for sure. Is that because they felt they had someone to talk to? Is that because there was some joy given to them? Like we don't know. It was never looked into. But I also find that quite interesting. That is, I'm like, what if we put them together?
- [22:28]
A
I was going to say the same thing. Why don't we try both together?
- [22:30]
B
Right. Imagine if we did the food and also just, you know, somebody to sit and talk to you once a week. And it's not therapy. They weren't talking about emotions or anything. But I find that really interesting. So for me that was a really interesting area. I was like, wow, food can have the impact to really support your mental well being.
- [22:48]
A
I mean, this is the same result as like a lot of drugs.
- [22:51]
B
Exactly. You know, and so you can imagine because there's always a place, I always say there's always a place for drugs for some people.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah.
- [22:57]
B
Like we should never wipe them up. But imagine if you started off with lifestyle changes like nutrition or some befriending support or some self compassion and then the next week you try the drug. Like imagine how much that could bolster it. Yeah, but the thing is, we're never taught these, were taught them in silo. And you might not ever need the drug, but you might do all the lifestyle changes and still feel not yourself. And then that's when you take the next step. Right, but we're just not, we don't.
- [23:26]
A
Ever start with lifestyle changes.
- [23:27]
B
We never start with that.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah. Especially when it comes to depression. I think the problem there is just, you know, people go see a doctor for depression and the doctor has five minutes like, okay, here's Prozac. Come back in a month and tell me if you're still depressed. But the reality is, like you said, a lot of depression has its roots in poor food choices, poor metabolic health. And when you fix that, depression tends to go away because those foods are highly inflammatory. And inflammation in your gut translates to inflammation in your brain too.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah, massive. And also I found out when I was studying because I was new and ADHD is on the rise, autism, a lot of people, people are talking about all of this stuff now. And when I found out that I had dyslexia, you know, again, I'm like, I wonder what food can do, right? And I was so interested in omega 3s, and so I looked so much into omega 3s. And I mean, this is. This is over 10 years ago now, so it might potentially change. But Dr. Richardson, who works at Oxford University, she was really interested in this. So I would follow her to all of her seminars that she would do.
- [24:30]
A
Oh, really?
- [24:31]
B
And she would do loads of random control trials on children that had neurodivergency, like dyslexia, and feed them a couple portions of oily fish a week, because a lot of people don't meet their omega 3 status, especially now we're so high in omega 6. And she would find that after, you know, like three months, these children would overcome their Chronicle reading age.
- [24:48]
A
Right.
- [24:48]
B
By increasing their Omega 3 status from just oily fish. And so obviously, you know, I was on a very, you know, very reduced diet when I was a model. So all of a sudden I'm going, oh, I shouldn't be a vegan. I should be having oily fish. I should be having more of these in my diet. The polyphenols are amazing for my gut microbiome, and that is really important for the blood brain barrier. And. And I just started increasing all this abundance of foods in my diet because I also wanted to, you know, support my dyslexia.
- [25:16]
A
Yeah.
- [25:17]
B
And so I found it so fascinating that I would feel better. I would process information way better. I then didn't feel like I was struggling as much with my dyslexia. One, because I understood how to manage it. But two, I started to include all of these different nutrients, and to my.
- [25:31]
A
Diet, you're eating more.
- [25:33]
B
So much more.
- [25:33]
A
Right?
- [25:34]
B
So much.
- [25:35]
A
You felt better.
- [25:35]
B
So much better. And that was really important for me. I was like, wow, you don't. And the interesting thing is we all want to look better, Right. At the end of the day, I don't care what anyone says, we all want to look better.
- [25:47]
A
Right.
- [25:48]
B
And to do that, you've got to eat the good nutrients. I was depriving myself of it. Like, I had to turn up with good hair and good skin. You don't get that from a low calorie diet.
- [25:58]
A
No.
- [25:58]
B
You get that from an abundance diet.
- [26:01]
A
Exactly. This is what drives me crazy about the people that say, calories in, calories out, that's only thing that matters. And it just drives me nuts because you see so many people trying to limit their calories and they do that and they limit their nutrition.
- [26:16]
B
Yes.
- [26:16]
A
And they're still eating the same food that is the same number of calories. As ultra processed food, but is so nutrient lacking that they end up eating more because their body's starving for nutrients. Right. And so I think a lot of people forget that you don't just have hunger for calories, you have hunger for nutrition. Your body keeps you hungry if you don't have enough nutrients.
- [26:38]
B
Right, Absolutely.
- [26:39]
A
And so calories in, calories out, does not work. It can work, like, in a laboratory, like, if you're just studying physics, but it doesn't work in the real human body. It's more about nutrition, metabolic health, movement. There's so many pieces involved with the puzzle.
- [26:54]
B
Yeah, it is. It's such a reductionist view to think about calories and calories out, because calories also so different. You know, you can have a mars bar calories, and you could have the same calories in broccoli.
- [27:04]
A
Right.
- [27:04]
B
They're fundamentally completely different.
- [27:06]
A
Right.
- [27:07]
B
You know, and so that's. That's the nuance in the conversation.
- [27:10]
A
Yeah.
- [27:11]
B
I think a lot of the same.
- [27:12]
A
Amount of broccoli calories say you have, like, I don't know how many calories is a Mars bar? Say 500 calories. You eat 500 calories of broccoli, you won't be hungry until dinner. With a mars bar, you're gonna be hungry like an hour.
- [27:22]
B
Right.
- [27:23]
A
You need a glucose crash, too.
- [27:25]
B
Yeah.
- [27:25]
A
So just completely different biological signals to your brain as well.
- [27:29]
B
Yeah. I think it's interesting because I remember there was an era I didn't know what it was like over here, but people. You know, rice cakes were a huge thing. And obviously that's, you know, a processed food, but, you know, people were eating that because they think they were thinking that was healthy. And I was in that camp. You know, I'm gonna have some rice cakes with a tiny bit of hummus and diet coke. I mean, that was, like, one of the worst things that I could have for my health, but my intention was right. And this is what I find it's really interesting. A lot of people, everyone's intention is correct. You know, they all want to feel better. They all feel like they're trying to do the right thing, but everyone's so confused, you know, like, low calorie. That doesn't sustain you.
- [28:09]
A
Well, I think another big problem was, and you probably saw this in your modeling career, too, is we equated someone being thin with being healthy.
- [28:15]
B
Oh, yeah, right.
- [28:16]
A
And so thinness was celebrated. In fact, the thinner you are, the better. The better modeling career you got. Right. Everything in the. Everybody in the magazines were thin Right. And that was equated with good health.
- [28:28]
B
Yeah. That was the 90s, right?
- [28:30]
A
That was the 90s. Exactly. And sadly, like, a lot of those thin people were very, very unhealthy and very sick.
- [28:38]
B
Yeah. I think the important thing here as well is that body shapes and sizes differ so much. And that's. I think I only really understood when I entered the modeling world because at school I was naturally slim and I would actually be picked on for it.
- [28:53]
A
Yeah.
- [28:54]
B
And I hated it because I never was the girl that had the boobs and the hips and all of those things that made all girls sexy at my school. And all the boys, you know, would want those girls that went through puberty and had the boobs and had the bum. And I remember going for my shopping for my first bra and crying because the woman was like, oh, she needs a training bra. And I was like, no, no, I don't want that.
- [29:17]
A
Yeah.
- [29:17]
B
And I remember hating it. And then all of a sudden it became an asset of mine when I was modeling.
- [29:23]
A
Right.
- [29:23]
B
So also that mindshare, that mindset shift was a huge thing for me because I was like, no way. I feel like I've never been sexy or desirable because I've not had shape.
- [29:33]
A
Yeah.
- [29:34]
B
And it's interesting. There's also girls that have bigger hips that come into modeling that are incredibly thin.
- [29:39]
A
Right.
- [29:40]
B
But they're like, oh, your hips are too big. And that's also so hard for somebody to get their head around because that's your hips.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah.
- [29:48]
B
Yeah. Unless you shave your bone.
- [29:50]
A
Yeah.
- [29:51]
B
You can't change it. And so I find that's like a really interesting conversation that, you know, part of being picked as a model, it's not just how you look, it's how your body shape is.
- [30:00]
A
Yeah.
- [30:00]
B
Which like, you don't have any control over. And that's why it can become quite toxic because you're always trying to fit into a size that isn't right. And if you're picked at 16 and then you turn up modeling at 21, still, I mean, you have changed shape hormonally, everything. You're completely different from a 16 year old. And that's when it can get really confusing for most girls.
- [30:22]
A
Yeah. I mean, it just sounds so emotionally traumatic to go through this as a young woman, maybe even a young man too.
- [30:29]
B
But the young men is just as bad. Yeah, it's just as bad. And I think they don't get a look at as much. I think men in general, you know, men with their health, I think since social media has risen. The body dysmorphia has increased more in men than it has in women, which is really interesting. You know, there's like lots of places around the world, like Fiji is one, where commercials weren't put into Fiji until I think it was the 60s, but I need to remember the exact date. But when commercial adverts went in of soap operas, it really changed how women saw themselves because until then, women were seen as strong and powerful when they had muscles and they had more curves. And that's how women were naturally represented. That's also the culture. And as soon as, like the western soap operas came in, eating disorder rates rose, like, really so quickly.
- [31:17]
A
Wow.
- [31:18]
B
All from how we're showing the idolized version on tv. And that's really interesting because that's, that's. You can actually see a country shift from what they think was desirable until what is now.
- [31:29]
A
Yeah.
- [31:29]
B
And so that's what's really interesting. Now we're seeing with social media that boys and men are getting it much more from, you know, like the ripped physique. And you think, I'm sure you get this in your clinic with men that want to come on steroids and testosterone treatment, which can be really damaging for fertility and all of these things. But the pressures that men now feel is kind of connected to the social media scene as well. So it's really interesting. It's on both camps.
- [31:53]
A
I mean, there are men doing plastic surgery to get a six pack and, you know, get chest muscle. They're getting implants now too. So it's really. Social media has really been a massive push for people to, you know, seek cosmetic procedures at a very young age. Because of exactly what you're talking about.
- [32:11]
B
Yeah. And I think that's, you know, in the beginning when I referenced modeling is now very similar to the world that we live in. I say that because when I was modeling, it was a very specific circle that were around comparison all the time. So I compared myself 247 to people I lived with, to when I was at a casting, to who I was at dinner with. We were all going for the same jobs. You were in this, like, very circular world. But outside of that, you know, my friends from back home were never comparing themselves day in, day out. They might compare themselves if they went out for an evening, but they weren't waking up comparing themselves. I woke up comparing myself every day. That's the world we live in now.
- [32:45]
A
Yeah.
- [32:46]
B
Like now everyone. I feel like the pressures that I had, which is why I think talking about self compassion is really important. The pressures I had back then, not that many people had as much, but now people wake up and the first thing we do is look at our phone. The first thing majority people will do, open social media. And so all of a sudden you're compounded to all the amazing things that everyone else has, how they're looking the best start to their day when you're maybe not feeling in your best headspace. And so that like compounding of comparison and all the social media outlets that we have as well as like just the traditional advertising is now in this like hyper compromised world that we all live in, which is just full of comparison.
- [33:25]
A
Yeah.
- [33:25]
B
And comparison's the thief of joy.
- [33:27]
A
So comparison is a thief of joy. So what's the solution? How do we, how do we stop all this comparison of ourselves and our bodies to other people and get self compassion back?
- [33:39]
B
I think first of all, like connecting to what self compassion is. Because I think a lot of people get confused. I mean, I say that and I'm speaking personally, I would think self compassion was very narcissistic. You know, when I would start looking at it, I'd be like, that's, that's crazy. Like I'm not gonna like myself. Like, who would do that? But actually just being kind to yourself is not narcissistical. It's not self pity. And we know that when people are more self compassionate, especially in health behaviors, they're way more motivated. So we think self compassion dampens our motivation. It actually motivates us. It's like, imagine every day going into work and somebody putting you down.
- [34:15]
A
Yeah.
- [34:15]
B
After a while you're like, I don't want to be here.
- [34:17]
A
That's so true.
- [34:19]
B
If every day you're going in and someone's being really supportive but also giving you constructive criticism, like, do you know what, Dashen, that was really great what you did today. This part I'd love to help you on because I feel like you might be a little bit confused here. And how can I support you in that is such a better way than you're a loser. What are you doing? You're not going to want to go to work every day. And that's how we talk to ourselves. And so what we know from research is people that are more self compassionate are way more better to do with their health behavior. They're way more likely to connect to it, to keep to it, to stick to it long term. Because a lot of studies that they look at are done within 12 weeks, three months, six months. They're not Long term studies. And so we know that like self compassion is a really important indicator and component of keeping these health behaviors right. And also when you're in a like kind estate, you're naturally going to make better decisions for yourself. And so I think like getting to understand what self compassion is, not being afraid of it is really, really important. Connecting to the self, empathy, connecting to how you're feeling, asking yourself these questions is really important. But also sharing it with a friend, you know, asking yourself the same question and it's a very easy one to do, but saying would I say this to my friend? If the answer is no, then you shouldn't be saying it to yourself.
- [35:36]
A
Ah, so you're saying is if you're verbalizing something to yourself internally, if it's not something you would tell your friend, why are you telling yourself the same thing?
- [35:44]
B
Exactly.
- [35:45]
A
Looking in the mirror and saying, you know, you're fat like or you're whatever, you know, you're under muscled or whatever. Right. Like you don't look good. You would never say that to a friend. Why would you say it to me? Yeah.
- [35:56]
B
Or if you did, like you're not very good friends.
- [35:58]
A
Right. Exactly.
- [35:59]
B
You know, and see it's interesting. I think about it a lot. And we all have self critical, you know, we have 60 to 80,000 thoughts a day, you know, and 80% of them are negative.
- [36:10]
A
Really? 80% are negative.
- [36:11]
B
80%.
- [36:12]
A
80% of our thoughts are negative are negative throughout a day.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah. And you need three positive comments to balance one negative one.
- [36:20]
A
That's not happening if 80% are negative.
- [36:23]
B
Right. So all we're doing, we're unconscious and we're mostly unconscious about it. What I found really interesting is writing down. It can be a labor section exercise, but it can be amazing to do for one day. Every time one of those like bad thoughts pops in, just note it down.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah.
- [36:37]
B
And you realize over time how much is going on in our mind. It's because you've become very habitual. Because our brain is evolved to be this way. That's the other thing.
- [36:46]
A
Yeah.
- [36:47]
B
You know, we're naturally evolved to be way more critical because it's survival.
- [36:51]
A
It's survival.
- [36:52]
B
But now we live in a world where we have daily stresses way more than we used to. That just doesn't serve us the way that it used to serve us from running away from a lion or being very vigilant. We don't need that vigilant as much anymore. And so to try and equate that and try and be more compassionate because I don't agree with trying to be more positive. If someone says to me, just be more positive, I want to shake them.
- [37:16]
A
That's the, that's the UK in you. It is.
- [37:18]
B
Well, I think, because sometimes you can't find positivity because compassion isn't about being positive. Right. It's about acceptance.
- [37:25]
A
Yes.
- [37:25]
B
It's about like, okay, do you know what? This is tough, but it's really. And sometimes you can think positive, but there are many times when people really struggle, and I think that can make people feel worse. Well, like, why can't I think positive? What's wrong with me? And so I think having that compassion, it's like, okay, do you know what? Today maybe I don't. And do you know what? That's okay. And feeling worse about myself, is that going to make it better? No. Can I give myself a break? Do you know what? Yeah, I can. What do I need right now? I think I just need to go for a walk. Like, that's really compassionate and it's way better than spinning yourself out. Like, why can't I just be positive? Why can't everyone else around me seem to do this so easily? And I can't. That's the difference between compassion and, and the kind of positivity. I think positivity is amazing. And I think if we can be in that mindset, it's, it's the best. That's ultimately what we all want to get to. Yeah, but life isn't an interesting life. And we're gonna have times every day where we eat that chocolate cake or we order an Uber Eats or we stay out too late, like, because we're human.
- [38:27]
A
Yeah. I also think when you, you know, when you lack self compassion, you also make choices that are not in your best interest. And you, you know, you make choices that take you down a path that you didn't want. That's not a positive path to go down sometimes. Right. Because you just are not doing what serves you. And you end up making decisions and choices that keep you on that path of not serving you. Right. And maybe you're trying to do this in service for other people. Maybe you're trying to do this in service of, you know, a job like you did, maybe modeling. Right. And so it just adds up. The bad choices just add up over time.
- [39:04]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And we could be stuck in that loop and not see it.
- [39:08]
A
Right.
- [39:09]
B
And so that's where kind of the mindfulness comes in.
- [39:12]
A
Yes.
- [39:12]
B
You know, like the check in with yourself is really important to start understanding, like how are you speaking to yourself? Because I was completely unconscious of it.
- [39:20]
A
Right.
- [39:20]
B
And now when I see clients and I ask them, like, and how do you really feel? Or like, what is driving that? Like, why do you want that health outcome? Like, what is it behind that? It's really interesting. A lot of their conversation changes with me. And actually when we've worked on these parameters of self compassion, they've managed to stick to it, but they've come from a place of abundance as opposed to a place of lack of.
- [39:42]
A
Got it. So, you know, this is so. Reminds me a lot of, you know who Gabby Bernstein is.
- [39:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:48]
A
She's so sweet.
- [39:49]
B
She's amazing.
- [39:49]
A
She was on this podcast. We're having this. It feels like, you know, a little bit of deja vu because she wrote a book called Self Care where she talks about internal family systems where, you know, ifs. Yes, ifs. Yeah.
- [40:00]
B
Amazing.
- [40:01]
A
Very amazing. Amazing. I never knew this existed until she told me about it. And then I become like a huge student of this. And so it sounds very similar. Right. When you have a pause to really ask yourself, why are you feeling this way at this moment before you take an action so that you have a moment to self reflect. Right.
- [40:23]
B
Absolutely. Because also it's interesting, like, we can talk about it from a very basic standpoint of asking yourself for what's actually going on is really interesting because that's what activates the rational brain. It doesn't bypass your amygdala. And so when we're stressed, we miss a chronic stage of like, the presence processing and we bypass the amygdala and we go straight to the action. Because that's, you know, if there is a fight, say if a fire happens now, we're not going to go, how do we feel? We're going to go run.
- [40:53]
A
Right.
- [40:54]
B
Because that's going to save us from a fire exploding in this building. But we're not around that every day.
- [40:59]
A
Right.
- [41:00]
B
And so it's kind of understanding, like, when do I need to run for the fire and when do I actually need to sit here and make logical decisions?
- [41:05]
A
Yeah.
- [41:06]
B
And that's really, like, neurologically, that's why it's so important, because it activates the rational part of your brain to allow you to make clear decisions.
- [41:14]
A
Yeah.
- [41:15]
B
So that's what's really important on that.
- [41:16]
A
I feel like, you know, part of that is eroded in modern society because we are always making really quick decisions constantly. Right. And we're doing so much task switching. Like, you know, you get. You get a text message, you Answer it right away. Because the next thing you have to do is, you know, I don't know, write this email. And then right after you're done writing the email, then you have to go, you know, get in your car and drive somewhere to go down a podcast, you know, and so you're like making quick decisions all the time without having to stop and think and check in with yourself. And that's where we're conditioned on a day to day basis that when big decisions do come up, we just make the decisions too quickly without even checking in on ourselves.
- [41:56]
B
Right, absolutely.
- [41:57]
A
And then we come from a place of like, like you said, you know, we come from a place of just acting like everything's an emergency when it's really not an emergency.
- [42:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [42:07]
A
Well, Hi, Dr. Shah here. I want to take a minute to talk to you about cellular health. So in my clinics I've actually seen 30 year old people with cells that look like they're pushing retirement. And I've also seen 60 year olds with cells that look like they're 40 years old. So what's the difference? It's really about how fast their telomeres are breaking down. Your cells, you see, are like phones and they have limited cell phone battery, poor sleep, stress, processed foods, all of these things can drain that battery way faster than it should. So this is the reason why I partnered with ima. IMA powers that cellular battery. It's not just another multivitamin. It's a comprehensive 92 ingredient formula designed specifically for cellular health and longevity. I'm talking 900 milligrams of vitamin C. That's like 20 oranges worth of DNA protection, the clinical dose of CoQ10 that you need to power your cellular engine. You also get zinc, selenium, vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid. All of these work synergistically for cellular repair and protecting your telomeres. So instead of taking a handful of pills every day and all these supplements, IMAID actually gives you everything that you need in one scientifically formulated system. And this isn't just a theory anymore. IMAID had partnered with Oxford University, the International Space Station San Francisco Research Institute, and they've done studies and they've gotten this NSF certified to truly power your health. Most people are aging twice as fast as they should. Unfortunately, you don't have to be one of them. Try Im8. I actually have a discount secured for you if you go to DrShaw.com imate or go to imaidhealth.com discount DrShaw and you can get 20% off with my discount code. DrShaw. You can also find the link below. So when you see clients now. So tell me about a little bit about your practice. Like what are you doing now and what kind of clients are you seeing?
- [44:10]
B
Yeah, so a real mixture. So I remember when I first started this and it was, it was, it was a real mixture of clients. It was people from high performing circles to CEOs to a mum that had just kind of wanted to get back to feeling herself. And it was really interesting because it was such a broad range of people that I was seeing. And I talk about them in two ways, which are two different types of people. You have the optimizers, the people that always really want to be in a high performing world and optimize and be their best. And you have the lapses, the people that feel that they're always trying to get back on the wagon. They're always trying to like, they always feel they've given up and they're trying again to get back on and they're just, they feel, they always explain they're on this constant cycle, they're lacking behind.
- [44:54]
A
Right.
- [44:55]
B
And it was really interesting that when I would see these two very different sets of people, which was really interesting for me to see in my clinic, I'm not just treating one kind of person.
- [45:04]
A
Optimizers and lacquers and lapses, lapsers. Got it.
- [45:08]
B
They both had that not good enough feeling together. So the optimizers were coming from like, I can do more. This person's doing better and always wanting to be that one step ahead. And the people that were the lapses that felt like they would start something and then fall off two weeks later would have such low self worth and would never feel good enough about themselves and would always come in beating themselves up and always feeling like they're from a place of lack.
- [45:33]
A
Wow.
- [45:34]
B
And it was really interesting watching these two kind of subsets of people where.
- [45:38]
A
I was like different personalities, different problems, but same, same at the end of the day, coming from the same place of lack of self love.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah, self love. Self worth. Yeah, all of it. And so it's when I started kind of asking them more about that area and where they saw their self worth and self compassion. I mean like no one ever asked him that before. So they would first of all not quite know how to answer the situation or the question that I'd work with them on. But as we developed that more that totally changed how they then looked at themselves and their health. But these people are two totally different people for sure.
- [46:13]
A
Right.
- [46:14]
B
And it was interesting that they were both coming in, but they both struggled with the same thing. And I could also see parts of myself like in both of their versions. You know, I definitely say I was probably more of the optimizer in my natural way of being, but it would always from needing to do more.
- [46:31]
A
And then you would talk to them about this structure that you have around self worth and self compassion. And what kind of realizations would the optimizers have?
- [46:41]
B
Well, first of all, I think people would be like, why am I having to like look at this or talk about this? And I would say, well, how long do you want your behavior to change for? Yeah, they'd be like, well, forever. And I was like, well, just if I tell you what to eat, that's not going to change your behavior. Like I said, you ultimately have all the knowledge. I want you to know that, that you ultimately know what to do. And they go, okay. And so the more that we would dig into it and you could see it's because a lot of people feel uncomfortable because they're not used to talking about it and they're like wait, why am I talking about this? But as they trusted me and softened with it and I'd go off and I'd give them self compassionate exercises to do to think around food. Because you know, the biggest thing is I think we treat food in a silo. So connected to psychology. It's so connected to how we feel about ourselves. It's so connected to what's happening around us. Our emotions play a massive, massive part in food that we can completely underestimate. And our mind is so powerful. And so when I would work more with them on the mindset piece, it totally changed the outcome. And then they would find themselves not in this negative cycle that they found themselves in before and also they find themselves de stressed. We put in different lifestyle interventions as well that would really help that were much more self compassionate towards them. And basically I say the words, they're like, you need to let go and you just see their shoulders drop because that's what people feel when they're very stressed. They're very stressed, they're very tight. And actually as soon as you tell someone like they can let go, you just see their body like relax. Yeah, it's like they've given themselves this permission. And so when we started integrating way more self compassionate work alongside their food, like it had massive effects for them. And so that's when I started to be like, well, there is something really here within how we should Be approaching nutrition with people and health behaviors. You know, if we can, if we can start there, then the world's like someone's oyster on what they can do.
- [48:33]
A
Right.
- [48:33]
B
And they're not chasing after something where they don't ever feel they're always two steps behind. Even if you're at the very top, you have a bad day, how do you get back up? You know, even if you're at the top all the time, I can, I can, I swear that people will come into you and say, I've done all the best things. And they'll want that instant gratification of like, well done, you've done all of those things. But they won't want to tell you things that they haven't done.
- [48:54]
A
Right.
- [48:55]
B
You know, and that's because that they carry that. So allowing them to not feel that is really important. And so I think that, you know, we're just not aware of that as much because we also live in a culture, a culture where we think everyone's doing everything perfectly the whole time. And that isn't health, that you'll know that health isn't this perfect tick box of things and checklist. No, but I think a lot of us feel like that today.
- [49:16]
A
What kind of exercises around food do you give them? You said you gave them some exercises around food. What do you. What are some of the exercises?
- [49:23]
B
So the first thing that for when people come and see me, they have a kind of very big form to fill out. And within that form you have like a self audit. So you also have things which every nutritionist give you, like a food diary. But what's in that food diary? I've got things of where are you eating? Who are you eating with? Are you hungry? People have no idea in their hunger signals. I'll get them to do unknowingly somatic connections, which is more of how you feel within the self audit food diary. So they're filling out their food diary unbeknown. And then we've got all these other boxes of like, where are you eating? Who are you eating with? Are you alone? How do you feel? Where's your hunger level? And you can start seeing when people are feeling very stressed, very lonely, very low self worth. All of these moments start showing up and it's interesting. I don't even have to do the work. They come to me and they're like, that exercise made me see myself in a whole different way. And they've naturally come to that conclusion of how they're eating, where they're eating, how they're feeling. People aren't always aware of how hungry they are. Half the time they're thirsty and food's a quicker solution than having some water. But how often they're eating in the evening, like what they're grabbing, why they're grabbing it. Have they given themselves any time? Because people often want to have a really great nutrition protocol but give themselves no time to action it. And so they make these very like quick interactive decisions that aren't always the best. And so it's interesting we have that. And then I also give them a big medical kind of form where they'll fill out their goals and how they're feeling. Within that is some certain questions that is quite important to see where their self compassionate score lies. And then alongside we also have kind of a mental health form to see what their mental health is at the same time.
- [51:03]
A
So you scored their self compassion?
- [51:04]
B
Yeah.
- [51:05]
A
Ah, how many?
- [51:06]
B
Without them knowing?
- [51:06]
A
Yes, without them knowing.
- [51:09]
B
There's like nine questions in there.
- [51:10]
A
Oh really? Can you tell me what some of those questions are? So are they secret?
- [51:15]
B
No. So there'll be things like, like how. How often do you have negative thoughts about yourself?
- [51:21]
A
Okay, that's pretty obvious, right?
- [51:23]
B
Pretty obvious. Right. Then the next one will be how often do you make your health decisions from a place of lack, from a place of abundance? Then there will be all different types of questions around. How often do they feel that they speak to themselves kindly? Does that make them feel uncomfortable? And all of these will be under different parts of the form where we're talking to them about food. And so they're not necessarily thinking, oh, this is like a mental health questionnaire. We also give them that because if they score very poorly on their mental health, then I will need to refer them to a psychiatrist or a therapist because that's also really, really important for me to see. Like I need to see if somebody has disordered eating or if you have a really severe mental health problem, then it's really important that you're seeing a psychiatrist or a physician who can be trained in that.
- [52:05]
A
Right.
- [52:05]
B
Who can then work alongside me like later down the line.
- [52:08]
A
Right.
- [52:08]
B
So it's all really important. So within those questions as well, I can also see where someone's mood is, how they're feeling. And all of these are really important questions for when you go and have anything done with health. Because if your mindset is not in the best place, it's going to be really difficult for you to make those decisions. Also, if your stress is insanely high, like I have A big stress score as well. That's also going to impact how are you going to maintain these health behaviors. Are you coming here because you're feeling, you're trying to fix your stress or because we actually are going to work on this as a long term protocol.
- [52:40]
A
Yeah. Behavior change is such a hard part of getting your health right. It's massively difficult. And we're, we struggle a lot with that. With patients, we tell them all the right. Like I said at the beginning of this podcast, we tell them all the right things to do. People either never start doing it or they do it for like a week and they fall off. And I think that you've hit upon something really powerful which is really understanding the whys behind the health changes that you're wanting.
- [53:06]
B
Right.
- [53:06]
A
And I think people should start there before they go on any health journeys. Understand the why it's the biggest. Right. And then understand why they're doing the things they're doing and why they're also wanting to make the change.
- [53:18]
B
Because that's going to last.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah.
- [53:20]
B
If it's just to look good in a bikini, like, ultimately, what, what does that mean for you?
- [53:24]
A
Right.
- [53:25]
B
Is that because you don't feel good enough in a bikini now? Like, what, what, what's the underlining, understanding behind that? Because people just go, I just want to look good on holiday. But why don't you feel good about how you look right now? Obviously, if there's health concerns, it's totally different, but if someone's in a good shape and they come to me with that question, it's really important to dial in on. Someone comes to me with a really intense supplement protocol, which a lot of people do, and they're on all of these things and they're coming to me for more. They want more. The next level. I'm really interested in why that is. Obviously we all want to have really good health span. That's absolutely critical. But what's not working right now, is it from a place of, of, gosh, I don't feel good enough, or I'm, I'm worried about how I'm going to be feeling or I'm worried, like a lot of it comes from fear as opposed to things that they feel that they're doing right. Very, very. And I don't know how you feel about this, but very rarely will people come in and say these things. I feel like I'm doing really well.
- [54:21]
A
Yeah, very rarely.
- [54:22]
B
They normally come and say, these are all things that I'm really struggling with. I'm doing really wrong.
- [54:26]
A
Right, right. It's almost always like, you know, what else can I be doing? Or what am I doing wrong kind of a thing. Yeah. And then when you're seeing, you know, those are the optimizers, but there's also these other types of people, the lapsers that keep falling off the wagon. I see that a lot as well. So what's, what's happening there with those people?
- [54:44]
B
Yeah, so that is all. So that's a real mixture. And I always think about the case study of a mum as someone who is trying to do 20 million things. I feel like a woman is a very kind of great one to talk about here because women are now trying to work, trying to have children, trying to have a social life, trying to also feel and look good. Like there's just a lot of components there that can feel a lot for a woman and they normally put themselves last. And so for that person that's maybe 39, got two children trying to have a career but struggling, maybe isn't part time because she's really wanted to be with her children, she's always feeling that she's like at the end of her game. And every time she opens up something on social media, somebody's doing like a 7am morning class and she's like, well, I already feel shit about myself. So then the quickest way is to try and approach it for food. Okay, well, I'm gonna like reduce my diet and then they reduce it so quickly that they feel awful and then they have a huge crash and then they start, you know, having a binge at 5am because they're like, I'm starving and I've woken up and I need to eat something because they're not regulated. And so it's this quick fix of I don't feel good about myself. So what's the quickest way I can try and feel better? Which is such a human behavior that we all have that we want to feel better about ourselves quite quickly and we don't feel great. But the thing is, like, a lot of these ones don't last because they're quick fixes. And you know, this, like, health is not naturally a quick fix.
- [56:12]
A
No, it's a habit that you need to get into.
- [56:14]
B
Right, It's a habit. And the reason why people kind of fall off and on was what I see is because all of this is coming from the place of like, right, I'm gonna try this now to make myself feel better. But actually, like, we need to start with feeling better first and then trying These. And so once we can try and give that person the self worth that they are good enough, like doing this isn't gonna make you any better as a person. Like it's not gonna change your character. Like you might feel better long term. And this is the goal that we really wanna get to. But ultimately we need you to feel that you're good enough now because that's the motivation that's going to stick in your brain when you're trying to do these quick fixes to know that you don't need to do that. We can look at the long term health plan to make you feel where you want to be, but you are still good enough where you are now. And having that inside of you is what maintains you to keep these health behaviors up, to not go onto these real extremes of, you know, strict intermittent fasting that doesn't work for a lot of women. Or really small, like calorie diets, like juice diets, like all of these things that send our grenadine hunger hormones all over the place, you know, make us feel depressed because we get such a drop on our neurotransmitters, you know, like on our gut, microbiome doesn't get fed and then we're undernourished and all of these things. And then our body is like, feed me, feed me, feed me. And then you need a quick hit of carbohydrates because your body is screaming. And so when those people go on those kind of on, off, on, off, on, off, the body's trying to regulate and inside you're searching for the answer that's finally going to make you feel good about yourself. If I just do this thing, if I just hit this on the scales, I'm finally going to be good enough. And that's what a lot of us are chasing in the lapses side that I see.
- [58:00]
A
Yeah, I do a lot of speaking engagements on overall health and how to be healthy, how to stay healthy. And the question I always get from people is what's the best diet? And in my view, any name diet is not the best diet because it's something you're only going to do for a little while, whether it be grapefruits or protein cookies or whatever have you. I tell people it's really the habit that you have around foods. And so are you eating your carbohydrates first and gorging on carbohydrates and then that's how you start every meal or do you start your meal with protein and fiber first? Right, like nutrients versus non nutrient dense foods.
- [58:41]
B
Totally.
- [58:43]
A
Like you said, like, you know, the essential fatty acids or, you know, horrible trans fats, donuts and you know, processed meats. Right?
- [58:51]
B
Yeah.
- [58:52]
A
And so like getting the right habits is so fundamental around food and it's way better to focus on that than just any name diet for a temporary intervention.
- [59:02]
B
Totally. And that rigidity, I mean, the funny thing I find is diet. If you take off the word tea, what do you get?
- [59:08]
A
Yeah, die.
- [59:09]
B
Yeah. I'm like, that's really not that appetizing. But it's interesting that when we live in that such restriction as well, and same with optimization. Our stress hormones rise. You know, we can feel a lot more stress about that rigidity. And if we feel that we've done something bad again, our stress hormones rise. We know the number one killer in the UK and, and I mean, obviously it's dementia and cardiovascular disease here, but actually we know the compounding variable is stress.
- [59:33]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [59:34]
B
And so when you're thinking about like when it comes to your health, if a plan or a routine or a diet or is stressing you out, you are counteracting what you're trying to achieve.
- [59:44]
A
You're causing more, more damage than good.
- [59:46]
B
This is what I mean. And I think with these, whether it's a really extreme diet or a really extreme like way of living your lifestyle, if it's causing you stress, ultimately you're counteracting the outcome you're trying to get because you're keeping yourself so rigid and narrow. I think we can have amazing parts within our diet and lifestyle habits. And I'm such a believer in, you know, good nutrition, good movement, good sleep, good rest, good recovery, good community, good friends, good relationships, good hydration. Like we need all of these things. And I think we can also then do things to build on top of them to increase our lifespan even more. But if we're not doing it from a place where we're not stressed, if we're adding stress to that, then you completely wipe out all of the basics. And I think that's where I see a lot of us going wrong.
- [60:30]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [60:31]
B
And I think that's the most important thing. Do you know Aaliyah Crumb from, from Stanford?
- [60:36]
A
Yes, I do.
- [60:37]
B
Herself a mindset. So that's where I started getting connected to the world of self compassion. Because she's very focused on stress and mindset in her research and she's, she's phenomenal. I find her work really inspiring. And she did this amazing study where she did an RCT and she gave Two groups completely randomized a meal. And then she wanted to understand about DNA profiling because, you know, you can all get your DNA tests now and you can get them back on your phone. You can be like, oh, I've got this gene, and I got the FTO gene, which means I'm more predisposed to being metabolically unhealthy. So she was like, I'm interested on how people will receive this information. So she gave two sets of people or groups some food, she took their bloods, she invited them back, and then she said to one group, this is completely randomized. You have the FTO gene, which means that you're more predisposed to become fat, basically, or metabolically unhealthy. And she said to the second group, you're not. And she kind of gave them reading material on each. So the people that thought they had the FDA gene, again, randomized, were obviously very attuned to knowing that any food that they ate had a consequence. When she took their blood tests afterwards, it was really different. They hormonally responded to the same meal completely differently. Their ghrelin levels rise, which is your hunger hormone. They both had different experiences the second time round, but they had the same environment and the same food. But the only thing that was changed was the words that they spoke to themselves.
- [62:03]
A
Yeah.
- [62:04]
B
And you can imagine the people in the FTAG were much more stressed right. About the food that they were about to eat because they were like, wow, this is going to make me put on weight.
- [62:12]
A
Yes.
- [62:12]
B
Whereas the week before, they didn't have those thoughts. And so if we're delivering, you know, that's what I think about when I'm in clinic, if I'm delivering food, saying, this is the types of food that will be really great for you, but they're having a negative mindset in it that's not going to have the outcome that they want.
- [62:27]
A
Exactly.
- [62:27]
B
So one is not only maintained long term, but two, it's having a completely different physiological effect in their body.
- [62:33]
A
Yeah.
- [62:34]
B
And it's, you know, there's so many studies like this. Like the milkshake study is another very famous study. And so I think that's the interesting key piece for me that I'm very fascinated in.
- [62:44]
A
Yeah, it's so incredible, the work that you're doing, tying mindset to nutrition. And I think it's important for people to realize this is a huge piece of the puzzle when they're trying to get their health in order, not just around nutrition, but also all the lifestyle interventions. It seems Even more foundational than even nutrition, exercise, sleep, like even before that comes a mindset.
- [63:04]
B
Yeah, it's like the number one. I think it's like the bricks and mortar of the house. If you've got a steady foundation, everything else becomes a little bit easier. Like the sleep becomes a bit easier, the nutrition becomes a bit easier, the movement. You also make decisions that you're also not going to. Something that I was very guilty of was over exercising, you know, because I thought I got to do this much zone to this much hit this, this much flexibility training. Because I was so acutely aware of all the things I had to do. I totally dissociated from what my body needed and I didn't actually have any recovery in.
- [63:37]
A
Yeah.
- [63:38]
B
So once you actually connect to actually what is it that. What does my friend need today if you step into their shoes, it's very good exercise.
- [63:44]
A
Right.
- [63:45]
B
If you think about Freaky Friday, have you seen that with Lindsay Lohan? When her mum and her change bodies?
- [63:50]
A
Yeah.
- [63:51]
B
I always think about doing that with someone that you love. So go into Freaky Friday, change bodies, and when you go and exercise, be like, what do I need today? Sometimes you'll feel like, actually, I feel like I can do way more than I thought I could do. And you can push yourself harder. And other days you'll be like, actually, I don't think this body needs as much intensity as I thought. It needs more recovery, but it's so much easier to do it with someone else than yourself. So it's a really good stepping point to self compassion work.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah. That's a really good way of getting some practice in. But pretending you're in someone else's body.
- [64:25]
B
Yeah. That you love, that you obviously care about.
- [64:27]
A
Yes. Yes. Well, I love this and I'm so glad for you to shed light to this part of wellness that is very not often talked about. And you're writing a book about this or you're gonna have a book out very soon, right?
- [64:38]
B
Yeah, 2026, maybe 23rd of May, it comes out 2026.
- [64:43]
A
Congratulations.
- [64:44]
B
Thank you.
- [64:45]
A
What's the book called?
- [64:46]
B
Healthy Shouldn't Be this hard.
- [64:47]
A
Healthy Shouldn't Be this Hard. I love it. And people can pre order this book.
- [64:51]
B
They can pre order the book. I can give you the links and pop it in the show notes.
- [64:55]
A
We're gonna put the link in the show notes for sure.
- [64:57]
B
Amazing. Thank you.
- [64:58]
A
Where can people hear more from you? I know you have an incredible podcast too.
- [65:02]
B
I do. You're gonna come on it.
- [65:03]
A
Yes, I will.
- [65:05]
B
So we have the podcast Live bar be well which has been like like started off as a passion project and now it's a full time. That was my full time business which I love. So definitely check that out. I also have my clinic but you can also check me on Instagram. Sarah Ann Macklin. My website, it's all my names.
- [65:23]
A
Sarah Macklin.
- [65:24]
B
Yeah, Sarah Ann Macklin.
- [65:25]
A
Sarah Ann Macklin. Got it. Perfect.
- [65:27]
B
Thank you.
- [65:28]
A
Really appreciate you being here. It's such an honor to have you and thank you so much for this and I look forward to joining you again soon.
- [65:35]
B
Thank you Dash and it's been amazing.
- [65:41]
A
Before we wrap up today, I'm going to give you my top five takeaways from my conversation with Sarah Ann Macklin. Number one Self compassion is the foundation of lasting health. We're taught to be kind to others, but never to ourselves. Yet the way you speak to yourself dictates your choices, your behaviors and long term well being. Number two, stress can mimic illness across the entire body. At 23, Sarah became severely unwell and saw multiple specialists only to realize the root cause was stress. It shifted her entire perspective on health and the importance of whole person care. Number three, Nutrition and mental health are deeply connected. Trials like the Smile Study show that diet can reduce or eliminate symptoms of depression. And combining nutrition with social connection can be even more powerful. Number four, Comparison culture fuels a crisis of self worth. From body image pressures and modeling to social media today, constant comparison disconnects us from ourselves. Self compassion restores clarity and healthier decision making. Number five, Lasting change starts with mindset, not the perfect diet. Whether working with overachievers or overwhelmed parents, Sarah sees the same pattern. Without self worth and internal motivation, no diet sticks. The best diet is consistent habits, protein and veggies first, whole foods, less restriction and more variety. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you like this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps us support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today. Especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best and it's always important to seek their guidance.