In this episode, we drop in with Father David, who is currently serving the Catholic Church as the Founding Executive Director of the Discerning Leadership Program. This program is a collaborative initiative that provides leadership formation for senior Vatican officials and major superiors of religious orders.

He lives and works in Rome at the Jesuit General Curia steps away from the splendour of St Peter’s Square.

We’ll explore David’s journey from early childhood to being moved by the 1989 assassination of Jesuits in El Salvador, applying to the Jesuits, and receiving confirming signs amid doubts.

He reflects on conditional self-worth rooted in childhood financial insecurity, God’s healing toward unconditional love, and cautions about attachment to mystical experiences.

He explains the Examen as a daily practice and outlines his work fostering discernment, shared dignity, and participatory church leadership encouraged by Pope Francis and Pope Leo.

If the word ‘God’ makes you bristle, we get it. We invite you to swap in whatever word works for you: the sacred, love, mystery, the force that connects us, or simply the deepest truth you know. This conversation is really about what it means to be fully human with each other, and that belongs to everyone.

Guest Links & Resources:

Father David McCallum Discerning Leadership

The Examen

Being integrally informed

Spiritual Bypassing

Pantheism and Panentheism

St. Ignatius of Loyola

Teresa of Avila

I - Thou

Subject-Object Theory

Kenosis

Reflections Episode & Worksheet soon to come:

In the coming weeks, we will release our Reflections episode where we reflect on the key moments, insights, and practices that stood out in our conversation with Father David. In our reflections episode, we share:

* Observations and highlights from the original conversation & experience.

* Personal insights from Andrew and Danielle on applying these principles in daily life.

* Practical ideas and exercises you can try to deepen the connection in your own relationships.

The Reflections episode & Worksheet are an intimate companion to the main interview—designed to help you process, integrate, and embody what was discussed. These are only available on Substack via paid subscriptions.

Get full access to Extraordinary Relationships Podcast at extraordinaryrelationships.substack.com/subscribe

Listening in Prayer, Discernment, and Non-Dual Glimpses of God