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- [00:01]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Dr. McKenzie.
- [00:03]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Dr. McKenzie.
- [00:04]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
A hospital in New Orleans, 1954. The psychiatry department. The subject sits on a hospital bed dressed in a gown. Electrodes are attached to his chest. Leather restraints hang from railings around the bed, ready for use if required. The administering nurse approaches the subject with a small file of lysergic acid diethylamide. The nurse extracts a pipette and administers two drops on the subject's tongue. The supervising doctor starts the observations. Within 30 minutes, the subject's pupils are dilated and his blood pressure and body temperature are spiking. So you're probably asking what any of this has to do with our story. Well, the substance just administered is better known as LSD, and the subject that it's been administered to is Dr. Ian Stevenson. Yeah, our professor has just dropped acid and it's going to totally blow his mind. Stephenson feels a wave of serenity wash over him. Wave after wave after wave. He experiences a powerful sense of unity, a sense of unity with all beings, all things. And his mind fills with images. Thousands of images, millions of images. Images of childhood, of early life. And now some of those are memories, Stevenson's own memories. But many of the images aren't memories. And those images seem to come from another place, another realm, another dimension. And Stephenson's trip doesn't just last a night.
- [02:08]
Will Sharp
He said he spent three days in.
- [02:09]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Perfect serenity, three days of absolute serenity. I want some of that. But when the professor finally comes down and starts to assess it all, it's clear that something big just happened. Something really big. Jesse Perry.
- [02:32]
Will Sharp
It was so powerful, that blast of consciousness while you're tripping under lsd, that it totally transformed his scientific worldview.
- [02:42]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Now, our man of science is clear.
- [02:44]
Dr. Jesse Baring
I had no verifiable extrasensory experience when.
- [02:49]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Under the influence of drugs, so nothing verifiable. But here's what he does say, that his experiences while under LSD increased my.
- [02:59]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Conviction of the dual natures of mind and body.
- [03:04]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
In other words, Stephenson's Psychedelic voyage has thrown open a door, thrown it wide open. A door to a new understanding that the physical body is one thing and the mind is something else. Mind and body exist and evolve separately. And if that's true, of course, it opens up a possibility, a profound, extraordinary possibility that while the physical body might die, the mind, the spirit, consciousness, the soul lives on. Yes, reincarnation. And this, of course, is why Stevenson finds himself in a seaside town in England, sitting in a living room filled with tobacco smoke, interviewing John and Florence Pollock and their twins, because these two Girls could change our understanding of everything. They could change what it means to be human. This is extrasensory. An Apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House. I'm will sharp. Episode 3 Bad Trip One last cup.
- [04:59]
John Pollock
Of tea, Dr. Stevenson?
- [05:05]
Florence Pollock
Oh, something a little stronger, perhaps a scotch?
- [05:07]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Oh, no, nothing for me, thank you.
- [05:09]
Florence Pollock
There is one last thing before you go. I think you'll want to hear this. Dr. Stevenson.
- [05:17]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Stevenson and the Pollacks have been talking for hours and it's nearly dark. Florence Pollock switches on the lamps in the sitting room. It's 9pm and the Twins are in bed. The professor knows he ought to get going. He needs to get to his bed and breakfast before the landlady locks the front door. But he's utterly gripped by everything the Pollocks are saying.
- [05:38]
Florence Pollock
Yes, we took a trip back to Hexham last year. So the twins were what?
- [05:43]
Marjorie Wynn
Four?
- [05:44]
John Pollock
Yes, four. You remember, of course, Dr. Stevenson. That's where we lived before, you know.
- [05:52]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Of course.
- [05:54]
John Pollock
And it was the first time the twins had ever been.
- [05:56]
Florence Pollock
That's right. They'd never been to Hexam. We'd never spoken about Hexam, never spoken to them about Jacqueline and Joanna. And the strangest thing happened, didn't it, Flossie?
- [06:10]
John Pollock
Yes, yes, very strange. Oh, we just can't explain it.
- [06:18]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So it's 1962. John, Florence and the twins are walking towards St. Mary's Church in Hexham. The church which Jacqueline and Joanna were on their way to when that car plowed into them five years earlier. The same church where the two girls funeral was held together. With my dead body shall they arise. The day of the funeral is etched into the minds of everyone in Hexham. 300 children marching from the nearby school in complete silence. The traffic at a standstill. It's devastating. But John remembers that day very differently. Now all of the sadness has gone. John might even think that the funeral was meaningless because there's nothing to be sad about. John might say John and Florence don't even visit the grave because for them, their little girls are still very much alive. And they're here, skipping hand in hand along the road. In fact, they've never been more alive. And it's at this point that Gillian does something. She points out the school to Jennifer, which would be completely unremarkable if it weren't for this. She says it's the school they used to go to. But of course, the twins are just four. They've never been to school. That school is their dead sister's school.
- [07:49]
Florence Pollock
Well, yes. I mean, I Was speechless. Completely speechless. But that's not the only thing, was it, Flossie?
- [07:56]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Stevenson looks up from his notepad, his eyebrows raised.
- [08:00]
John Pollock
Yes, the school was completely, completely out of sight. Totally out of view. Wow. Stevenson must have thought that was as wild as the time he was on lsd.
- [08:10]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
John's granddaughter, Lauren.
- [08:12]
John Pollock
So the twins never even knew that they had sisters. They knew things that they should never have known because they've never even been to that town before. I mean, Stevenson, when he heard all of this, he must have just been flabbergasted.
- [08:24]
Florence Pollock
This was the most incredible thing. We were absolutely amazed at this.
- [08:28]
John Pollock
I just can't explain it.
- [08:31]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And this bit is based on press report.
- [08:34]
Florence Pollock
But then something else even more incredible happened. We were walking down Lisa's Crescent, where our old house was, you know, before they were born, of course, and I didn't say anything to them. They had no idea that the road was in any way significant. And you know what they both said we used to live there. Yes, both of them said that we used to live there.
- [09:00]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
John tells Stephenson that on the same trip to Hexham, the twins wanted to play on some swings and they pointed towards the playground.
- [09:07]
Florence Pollock
Right, Flossie?
- [09:08]
John Pollock
Yes. But again, the playground was out of sight. They couldn't have known it was there.
- [09:15]
Florence Pollock
Really? Yes. It was Jacqueline and Joanna that played there. The twins never.
- [09:21]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Extraordinary. Extraordinary.
- [09:25]
Florence Pollock
Well, Dr. Stevenson, if that isn't evidence that our two little girls were reborn, I don't know what is.
- [09:31]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Quite remarkable. Well, I must thank you both for making me feel welcome. You've been very generous with your time, Mr. And Mrs. Pollock.
- [09:42]
Florence Pollock
Oh, please, It's John and Florence.
- [09:44]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And with that, Stevenson closes his notepad, places it in his briefcase and says his goodbyes. He's got an early train in the morning before his flight back to the us. As Stephenson walks through Whitley Bay, the streets glistening from all the rain, his mind is racing. Maybe this is the one. He thinks this is the case. It's utterly astonishing. And there's one thing he knows for sure. He has to meet this family again. He has to come back. This is the start of something. Four years before he first meets the Pollocks. Stevenson's dinner party in New York City. And this dinner party is going to be a game changer for our professor. It's the 60s, so everyone's smoking except Stevenson. And, yep, he's wearing one of his bow ties. Tonight, they're onto the cheese course. He's cutting himself a nice thick slice of Camembert, which he's going to Wash down with a glass of port. Now, Stevenson has got an agenda here, frankly. He needs cash, cash for his reincarnation research, because his university isn't about to give him a dime. And without money, it's all a complete non starter. Professor Jesse Baring is from the University of Otago in New Zealand.
- [11:14]
Will Sharp
Mainstream major sources of academic research funding were just basically off the table for him. They were not options, so he was entirely dependent on private benefactors.
- [11:28]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So he's deep in conversation with a woman in her 60s, wearing a string of pearls around her neck. Her hair is plastered to her head in a rather severe parting. Meet Eileen Garrett, a medium from Ireland. Now, Ian Stevenson knows that Garrett is good friends with a Republican congresswoman whose uncle worked in oil with Rockefeller. So, long story short, she is loaded. And together the two women have started the Parapsychology foundation here in New York City. However, the dinner is not going quite to plan because there's a problem, and it's quite a big one.
- [12:08]
Will Sharp
She wasn't particularly open minded to the idea of reincarnation. This was not something that Eileen Garrett personally believed in.
- [12:16]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So, no, she says to the professor, she is not going to fund his research. But then something happens, something very strange. An odd expression crosses Eileen Garrett's face and she looks upwards. The conversation around the table stops. Stephenson is confused, but the other guests know exactly what's happening. Eileen Garrett is no longer Eileen Garrett. She's someone else entirely. One of the guests turns down the lights and the dinner party has turned into a seance because Eileen is channeling another consciousness. She's being controlled.
- [13:04]
Will Sharp
And guess who by the control personality, who was an ancient Islamic scholar from like the 14th century, was completely convinced that reincarnation was real and said that obviously Ian should do this work.
- [13:24]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And then, as quickly as it started, it's over. Garrett is back in the room, back in the room with no memory of what just happened. So Stevenson tells her, and for Garrett, it changes everything.
- [13:38]
Will Sharp
She trusted the control personality's judgment, basically, and decided to give him the money to go on the.
- [13:43]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And she's like, Dr. Stevenson, you are going to India, you can have your cash. But that's not the only thing that Garrett does. She introduces him to an academic based in India, an academic called Dr. Himendra Banerjee of Rajasthan University, Jaipur. Because these two men share an interest, Banerjee is also into reincarnation. So when Stevenson lands in India, Banerjee is waiting for him. Banerjee acts as a kind of translator and guide, and Stevenson is glad of it because he gets pretty bad culture shock.
- [14:22]
Will Sharp
Initially, Ian saw Banerjee as a colleague, you know, somebody that he could collaborate with in terms of doing solid research, field work in this area of reincarnation.
- [14:32]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And in return, Stevenson tells Banerji all about the Pollock case, about the terrible crash, about John's predictions, the twins, the birthmarks recognizing their school even though it wasn't their school. The whole story. And Banerjee shares Stevenson's excitement, even talks about taking a trip to Whitley Bay himself. But the love in won't last. Before too long, Banerjee will threaten everything that Stephenson has worked for. And Stephenson will wish their paths had never crossed. It's a cold October morning in Newcastle upon Tyne. Judgment day for Marjorie Wynn. She's in court for the final time. The most hated woman in Britain. Don't forget the rumors going around that she killed the children deliberately. So this is it. Her fate is about to be sealed. She's sitting in the dock flanked by two female wardens. First Win will be asked to enter a plea. And remember, in the last hearing she pled not guilty. The public gallery is packed and the press box is crammed with reporters scribbling away. This place is intimidating. Far more intimidating than anything Wynne has faced so far. The judge wears a wig and red gown. Above him, the royal coat of arms. Marjorie Wynn looks weak. A broken woman again. She sits with her eyes closed for much of the proceedings.
- [16:05]
John Pollock
It must have been very uncomfortable for her sitting in there, knowing what she'd done. But you know if you do something wrong, you have to face face the crime, don't you?
- [16:15]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
The court clerk turns to Marjorie Wynn.
- [16:18]
Marjorie Wynn
Would the defendant please rise?
- [16:21]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
The two wardens help Marjorie Wynn to her feet.
- [16:25]
Marjorie Wynn
Hilda Marjorie Wynn, you are charged under Section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 1956 with causing the deaths of Joanna Mary Pollock, Jacqueline Teresa Pollock and Anthony Albert Laden by dangerous driving and driving under the influence of drugs. How do you plead?
- [16:48]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
There's a pause and then, with a thin voice that can barely be heard, guilty. Marjorie collapses back into her chair, supported by the two wardens. This means, of course, no jury trial. Next, the prosecution and defence will go through the evidence, then the sentencing. The judge will decide whether Marjorie Wynn will go to prison. The prosecution barrister gets to his feet.
- [17:19]
Marjorie Wynn
Your Honor, this is an extremely unhappy case because the defendant is a respectable middle aged mother of two who finds herself in this court on a very serious criminal charge. The other reason that makes it a sad and unhappy case is that her driving caused the death of three small children. One Sunday morning this year, the barrister.
- [17:44]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Outlines the full horror of that day when Wynn's car veered onto the wrong side of the road.
- [17:50]
Marjorie Wynn
Mrs. Wynn drove along the footpath 140ft, sweeping the children out of the way and killing them, and drove on about 300 yards before she stopped.
- [18:02]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Then, a pretty astonishing piece of evidence.
- [18:06]
Marjorie Wynn
After the accident, a witness, a motorist, found Mrs. Wynn in her car and asked her if she was okay. She replied, yes. Have I hit something?
- [18:17]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Yeah. Marjorie Wynn seemed to have no idea that she'd crashed into the children. The barrister then goes through the evidence that Marjorie had taken aspirin and barbiturates to end her life. This is what she told the matron when she was hospital just after the accident, and forensics confirmed it.
- [18:35]
Marjorie Wynn
Your Honor, it is not the least serious part of the case that before the defendant got into the car at all, the drugs could only have one effect, and that was to render her sleepy and incapable of driving.
- [18:50]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So let's just step away from the courtroom for a moment. Who is this Marjorie Wynn? What's going on? Well, producer Poppy's been doing some digging, and this is what she's found. In short, Marjorie Wynn is pretty privileged. She's not short of cash. She comes from a respectable, wealthy family. Her father had been a member of Parliament, and her husband was 20 years her senior. He was a Christian Scientist. And when they married in 1940, she converted, too. He was a war hero. He served in both world wars, a wing commander in the Royal Air Force. But six years before the crash, he died of some sort of disease. We don't know what. Marjorie Wynn also has two daughters, who, at the time of all this happening, are 16 and 13. They've recently gone away to boarding school. Now, in the year of the crash, Wynn appears to completely change. She becomes very depressed. Before the judge sentences Marjorie, her defense barrister gets to his feet.
- [19:54]
Marjorie Wynn
Your Honor, my client has no recollection of these events, but she accepts full.
- [20:02]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Responsibility for what happened. Apparently, Wynne's doctor advised her to see a psychiatrist at a nearby hospital, but she didn't follow through.
- [20:11]
Marjorie Wynn
It is a most unfortunate thing that.
- [20:15]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
She did not accept that advice. She'd been given some sort of psychiatric medication, but didn't seem to be taking it regularly. According to her defense barrister, she objected on religious grounds.
- [20:29]
Marjorie Wynn
It seems that just before the accident, my client had a fit of depression and took the drugs to end her life. But the dosage of those drugs was insufficient to do them. Your Honor, my client's recollection is that she Then went out in the car.
- [20:46]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
To clear her head.
- [20:48]
Marjorie Wynn
After that, she remembers nothing further.
- [20:51]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And with that, the defense barrister takes his seat.
- [20:55]
Marjorie Wynn
All rise.
- [20:58]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
The judge disappears to his chambers to write his summing up and to consider the sentence. To decide if Marjorie Nguyen will leave court the way she came in or leave in a prison van. 1964. The University of Virginia. Stevenson's in his office. There's a large map of the world on the wall. He takes a pen and sticks it in the northeast coast of England. He attaches a label. Pollock Twins. It's his only example in Europe. But there's a large cluster of pins across India and Southeast Asia. Stevenson takes a sip of coffee and goes back to his typewriter. He's writing his book featuring some of those cases from the trip to India. The trip that was paid for by Eileen Garrett. After that weird dinner party which turned into a seance.
- [22:01]
Dr. Jesse Baring
20 cases suggestive of reincarnation.
- [22:08]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Stephenson's pretty pleased with it. He's very pleased. In fact, there are some very strong case studies.
- [22:17]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Stevenson.
- [22:18]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Stevenson's expression darkens. It's about his translator, Dr. Banerjee, in India. And it's not good news. Someone has trashed Banerji's work in an academic journal. They're insinuating that he's a fraud, that he's fabricating data. Stephenson is outraged. The claims are garbage because he trusts Banerjee. I mean, they spent weeks together in India, right? And if he's not careful, this will reflect on him too. Guilt by association. He needs to close this thing down fast. Stevenson changes the paper in his typewriter and starts bashing out a letter to the editors of the journal.
- [23:01]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Kindly permit me to voice a vigorous protest against the review. Recently, we have had a rash of irresponsible accusations of fraud in parapsychology. Unless we discipline our tongues and our pens, we shall spoil the field for the next generation of parapsychologists.
- [23:22]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Problem is, the letter doesn't work. The controversy grows and the claims about Panachi get worse. Much worse.
- [23:31]
Will Sharp
These much more scandalous components began to trickle out in terms of him lying about having a Ph.D. him pilfering material from other publications and putting it into his own Indian journal of Parapsychology.
- [23:45]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So now they're not just hinting at stuff, they're claiming it explicitly that Banerjee is a liar and a cheat. Banerji, of course, denies it all. But Stephenson has to put it all to one side. He's on a deadline, putting the finishing touches to his book.
- [24:04]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Stevenson.
- [24:06]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
This time it's his publisher. And it's very, very bad news. They know about the Banerjee scandal and they're cancelling the publication of Stevenson's book. Banerjee was Stevenson's translator on the India trip. And the publisher says it makes all of those translations, all of those Indian case studies, questionable, possibly fake. They just can't risk it. Yes.
- [24:28]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Okay. Goodbye.
- [24:31]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Guilt by association. This is not good. Now Stephenson has no choice. It's time to cut Banerjee loose.
- [24:40]
Will Sharp
Ultimately, he found it difficult to avoid the conclusion that, yeah, there's something really fishy here about this Banerjee guy.
- [24:47]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
And all of this makes the Pollock case even more crucial. Evidence of reincarnation not in India, but in the northeast of England, where, thank God, Stephenson speaks the language himself.
- [25:04]
John Pollock
More tea, Dr. Stevenson?
- [25:06]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Oh, no, thank you, Florence. Please, do call me ian. I insist.
- [25:12]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
October 1964. Stephenson's back in Whitley Bay, 14 months after his first visit. It's a bleak autumn day.
- [25:19]
Dr. Jesse Baring
John, you said there was something else you wanted to talk to me about.
- [25:24]
Florence Pollock
Oh, yes. I was doing some decorating one day, painting the house. I was wearing this old smock to protect my clothes. Very plain old thing, it was.
- [25:34]
John Pollock
Yes, it was my smock, actually. I used to wear that smock when I helped John on his milk round.
- [25:41]
Florence Pollock
Now, of course, the twins weren't born when I had the milk round, and they'd never seen that smock before. And do you know what Jennifer said to me? Why are you wearing Mummy's coat? That's what she said.
- [25:55]
John Pollock
But of course, Jennifer had never seen me in that coat. Never.
- [26:01]
Florence Pollock
So how could she have known that was Florence's smock and not mine? It was from before they were born, when Jacqueline and Joanna were alive.
- [26:09]
Dr. Jesse Baring
That is so interesting. Okay, John, there's something I had in my notes from last time, and I wanted to ask you about it. Something about brushing hair.
- [26:21]
Florence Pollock
Oh, yes, correct. Joanna and Jacqueline love combing and brushing other people's hair, especially mine. And, well, the twins started doing that as well. They like combing my hair as if it's the most natural thing in the world.
- [26:38]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Hmm. That's a very intriguing behavioral consistency. Just noting that down. Anything else like that?
- [26:49]
Florence Pollock
Yes. Yeah. The way Jennifer holds her pen. She holds it in her fist. And that's exactly how Jacqueline used to hold her pen, isn't it, Flossie?
- [26:59]
John Pollock
Yes, that's right.
- [27:01]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Mmm.
- [27:02]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Thank you, Florence. John, just recording that observation.
- [27:07]
Florence Pollock
Also, the way Jillian walks her gait, the way she holds herself, it's exactly the same as Joanna walked, sort of splay footed, you might say.
- [27:19]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Then the Pollocks mention something which really makes Stevenson lean in because it has strong echoes of other cases he studied.
- [27:26]
Florence Pollock
The twins act very strangely around cars, Dr. Stephenson.
- [27:32]
John Pollock
Yes. I mean, they're much more scared of the road than other children their age. I'm sure of it.
- [27:38]
Dr. Jesse Baring
You mean when they're crossing the road?
- [27:40]
John Pollock
Yes. Well, I remember Joanna and Jacqueline were very careless. Very careless. And not so the twins. Not. Not Jennifer and Jillian. No, no. They always stop, always hold my hand. Very, very careful.
- [28:03]
Dr. Jesse Baring
I see.
- [28:04]
Florence Pollock
And remember, of course, they know nothing about the accident.
- [28:08]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Of course.
- [28:09]
Florence Pollock
And there's something else we haven't told you about yet. Something which happened close to here. The twins were playing in a little alleyway nearby. It's enclosed, a dead end.
- [28:22]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
There's a car parked nearby. And the driver gets into the car.
- [28:29]
Florence Pollock
Well, I'm in the house and I hear this hysterical screaming. Absolutely hysterical it was. And I go outside and the twins are cowering in the corner, holding onto each other as if their lives depended on it. They were absolutely petrified. And the car wasn't close. It wasn't very close.
- [28:56]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Interesting. Fascinating. Yes. Well, Florence, John, I can tell you this is totally consistent with other cases I've come across. Totally consistent.
- [29:08]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Carol Bowman is very familiar with Stevenson's work.
- [29:11]
Carol Bowman
In about a third of his cases, the children had phobias relating to the way they died. And most children remember traumatic deaths. The trauma is very potent.
- [29:23]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Carol's an author and therapist known for researching cases of reincarnation. And for Carol, it's also personal. She can relate to all of this because she's been through it with her son. Back in the late 80s, we had.
- [29:37]
Carol Bowman
Been to fireworks display on July 4th, and he became absolutely hysterical when the loud booming sounds began. And I said, what's wrong? He said, those loud sounds scare me.
- [29:55]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So Carol speaks to a hypnotherapist friend who asks her son, tell me what.
- [30:00]
Carol Bowman
You see when you hear the loud sounds that frighten you. So when he started saying, I'm a soldier, I'm crouching behind a rock. I have a long gun with a sword at the end. I have a uniform on. It's ripped and dirty. There's smoke everywhere. He was speaking in the first person. It was like, whoa. You get that electric goosebumps feeling. You know, you're in new territory. And I had no idea that a child could remember previous lives.
- [30:37]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Carol gets interested, very interested.
- [30:41]
Carol Bowman
His session for me was life changing. And I started pursuing this. I would ask parents at my kids School. Has your kid ever said anything about a past life? And I found that people had stories about their two, three or four year old talking about a past life and they didn't really know what to do with this information.
- [31:02]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Carol starts writing about it and then she discovers Stevenson's work.
- [31:07]
Carol Bowman
I was finding the same patterns that he did in his 40 plus years of research and documenting these cases from around the world. And Dr. Stevenson did amazing work in this field. He really set the standard and that was his mission, to show that these memories could be verified.
- [31:30]
Dr. Jesse Baring
John, Florence, there's something very important I need to ask you and I want you to think very carefully before you answer and answer very honestly, please. Have either of you ever discussed reincarnation? The idea of reincarnation with the twins?
- [31:50]
Florence Pollock
No. Never.
- [31:52]
John Pollock
Not at all. Dr. Stephenson?
- [31:54]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Never.
- [31:55]
Florence Pollock
Never.
- [31:56]
Dr. Jesse Baring
And is it possible that they might have overheard you speaking about reincarnation?
- [32:02]
Florence Pollock
No, we're very careful about that. We never discuss reincarnation. Never. And we never discuss the crash.
- [32:18]
Marjorie Wynn
All rise.
- [32:21]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
The judge enters the courtroom. This is the moment. Is Marjorie Wynn going to jail?
- [32:28]
Marjorie Wynn
Be seated. Will the defendant please stand?
- [32:34]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
The judge turns to Marjorie Wynn, pauses and addresses her directly. Hilda. Marjorie Wynn, I am quite satisfied that your judgment and reasoning powers were very.
- [32:51]
Marjorie Wynn
Seriously impaired by the mental illness from which you were suffering on this tragic day.
- [32:58]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Any sentence that I pass cannot bring back those unfortunate children who died that morning. I am quite satisfied that your responsibility for these tragic events was much diminished. The courtroom falls completely silent as the judge prepares to pass sentence. The reporters in the press gallery sit with their pens hovering over their notebooks.
- [33:32]
Marjorie Wynn
I sentence you to a total of three years probation.
- [33:35]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Furthermore, you are banned from driving a.
- [33:39]
Marjorie Wynn
Motor vehicle for a total of seven years.
- [33:43]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Remember that the two little girls who died, Joanna and Jacqueline, are Lauren's aunties, though they died long before. Before Lauren was born.
- [33:52]
John Pollock
I had no idea what the truth was. I hadn't ever looked into it. So, yeah, I mean, hearing it now is a shock because I thought anyone would think that she would have got more than, you know, just a driving ban. That's absurd. This was in the 50s and I just think times were very different then. And I think if she had the right connections, the judge may have gone easy on her.
- [34:16]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
Mrs. Wynn, you will submit to the direction of your probation officer as to.
- [34:22]
Marjorie Wynn
The times and occasions when you must seek advice and treatment as prescribed by a consultant psychiatrist.
- [34:30]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
This case is concluded.
- [34:32]
Marjorie Wynn
All rise.
- [34:36]
John Pollock
It's not fair. It's actually makes me really angry. I can't forgive her. I don't have any sympathy. I hope she felt remorse. I hope she felt guilt and devastation to what she'd done. She deserved to have all that hatred thrown at her because she had killed three little innocent children.
- [34:56]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So all of those people writing poison pen letters to Marjorie Wynn feel outraged. A driving ban for killing children? No. They think Marjorie Wynn should go to prison for a very, very long time. This is all a massive injustice. Now, maybe John Pollock sees an injustice too, but a very different injustice to the one everyone else sees. And the injustice John sees is this. The court have just convicted an innocent woman. Marjorie Wynne isn't guilty because his two little girls aren't even dead. They're alive. John, Florence and the twins are there to wave Stevenson off. As his train leaves Whitley base station back to London. From there, he's going to catch his flight to the U.S. stevenson takes his seat and goes through his notes. He mulls over everything he's heard from the Pollacks. He feels there's more. He wants to find out, that he wants to come back to Whitley Bay. But what does he make of it all? And remember, at the end of the day, Stephenson prides himself on being a man of science. He's not interested in faith or belief. All that he's interested in is science, hard, scientific evidence. Without that, he knows that he'll never convince his colleagues. He'll always be a laughingstock. And what Stephenson wants more than anything in the world is to be taken seriously. So he approaches everything that the Pollocks have said with a kind of skepticism. He weighs it all up, puts it under the microscope, really scrutinizes it. Does Stevenson by what the Pollocks have been telling him? The birthmarks, the dolls, the recognition of places the twins had never been to, the school, the playground, the house, the phobia of cars, the similarities in build and behavior. Does Stephenson think any of it is true? Or are they just making it all up? Are the Pollux just cranks? Well, Stephenson comes to a very decisive conclusion. He says that the Pollock twins provide.
- [37:19]
Dr. Jesse Baring
Some of the strongest evidence known to me in favor of reincarnation.
- [37:26]
Dr. Ian Stevenson
So, yeah, Stephenson buys it. He buys all of it. The Pollocks are telling the truth. Stephenson is pretty confident that the Pollock twins are their dead sisters, reborn. The only question now is this. Will the world agree? You've been listening to Extra Sensory, an Apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House and hosted by me, Will Sharpen. The producer is Poppy Damon. Extrasensory is written by Lawrence Grissel. Additional production by Seren Jones. Original music by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank, Manel and Toby Matimong. Sound design and mix engineering by Vulcan Kizzeltug and Daniel Lloyd Evans. The part of John Pollock was played by Peter Peverly, Florence Pollock by jasmine hyde and Dr. Ian stevenson by Mar Mark Arnold. The Pollock children are played by Francisco and Edie Pibola and Stevie Pye. Other parts by Jasmine Hyde, Mark Gillis, Ben Fox and Saul Boyer. Research by Alan Sargent. Fact checking by Jesse Baring and Karen Walton. Our managing producer is Amica Shortino Nolan. The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Griselle.