Dead Reckoning | 4

Summary

Extrasensory: Dead Reckoning | Episode 4 Summary

Host: Will Sharp
Produced by: Blanchard House
Available on: Apple Podcasts

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Introduction

In Episode 4, titled "Dead Reckoning," of the Apple Original podcast Extrasensory, host Will Sharp delves deeper into the enigmatic story of John Pollock, a 1950s England milkman who made a stunning prophecy about the reincarnation of his deceased daughters. The episode intricately weaves together family secrets, scientific investigations, media sensationalism, and tragic events that shape the Pollock family's tumultuous journey.

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The Pollock Family and the Reincarnation Prophecy

The story begins in Autumn 1978 on Saint Mary's Walk, Scarborough, where the Pollock family is preparing for a significant television appearance. John Pollock (played by Peter Peverly) and his wife Florence (played by Jasmine Hyde) are adjusting for their interview with Michael Chaplin, a young and ambitious producer aiming to secure a major scoop for London Weekend Television. The family has relocated to a seaside town, and their twin daughters, Jennifer and Jillian, aged 21, bear striking resemblances to their deceased sisters, Jacqueline and Joanna.

Michael Chaplin, tasked with conducting the first-ever TV interview with the Pollocks, reflects on the lingering grief surrounding the tragic crash that claimed Jacqueline and Joanna's lives:

Michael Chaplin [01:15]: "You know, it was a big event and her feelings about it were still quite raw. And they all said, you know, what a terrible thing it was, you know, its ripples continued to spread outwards as far as the 70s."

Michael Chaplin's Quest for the Story

As the interview commences, Michael notices an unusual calmness in John and Florence's demeanor, contrasting typical grieving parents. This observation piques his curiosity:

Michael Chaplin [01:49]: "There was certainly not two normal grieving parents."

Michael attributes this tranquility to the couple's firm belief in the reincarnation of their daughters. This conviction sets the stage for a compelling narrative that challenges conventional understandings of life and death.

The Involvement of Dr. Ian Stevenson

Central to the story is Dr. Ian Stevenson, portrayed by Mark Arnold, a dedicated scientist specializing in reincarnation research. Stevenson has been meticulously studying the Pollock twins, funded generously by his late friend, Chester Carlson, the inventor of the photocopier. Carlson's unexpected death propels Stevenson back into his research with newfound resources:

Dr. Ian Stevenson [06:09]: "Stevenson. Oh my goodness."

Following Carlson's demise, Stevenson receives a substantial bequest of one million dollars, enabling him to continue his investigations without financial constraints. However, this windfall attracts envy and resentment from his academic peers at the University of Virginia, complicating his professional life.

Media Sensation and Challenges

Stevenson's interaction with the media takes an unexpected turn when he is duped into an interview with the National Enquirer, a sensationalist tabloid. Misled to believe he was engaging with a reputable journalist, Stevenson inadvertently finds his serious research headline on a tabloid cover:

Dr. Ian Stevenson [09:17]: "Reincarnation, Will you live again."

This exposure undermines his credibility within the scientific community, despite his growing popularity among the general public. The episode highlights the tension between scientific integrity and media sensationalism.

Tragedies Strike: Chester Carlson and Florence Pollock

The narrative takes a somber turn as prominent figures in Stevenson's life meet untimely deaths. Chester Carlson's passing not only removes a key supporter but also intensifies Stevenson's resolve to pursue his research. Shortly after, Florence Pollock suffers a fatal heart attack, further destabilizing the Pollock family:

Michael Chaplin [14:38]: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed."

Florence’s death marks a pivotal moment, estranging the family as John Pollock remarries, leading to deep familial rifts and the eventual disbandment of the Pollock siblings.

Reincarnation: Perspectives and Beliefs

The episode delves into diverse interpretations of reincarnation, presenting viewpoints from religious scholars and psychics. Ravi Vaidyanath and Dr. Jeffrey Long discuss the complexities and variations across different cultures and belief systems:

Dr. Jeffrey Long [19:35]: "It's our Attachment to those fruits of action that propel us back into the cycle."

June Field, a renowned psychic, offers a more personal perspective, suggesting that souls may have agency in their reincarnation:

June Field [20:33]: "I feel that you can actually decide whether you want to come back."

These discussions underscore the multifaceted nature of reincarnation beliefs and the challenges they pose to empirical validation.

The Fragmentation of the Pollock Family

As Stevenson continues his research, the Pollock family becomes increasingly fragmented. After Florence's death, John’s quick remarriage and the subsequent distancing of his children strain familial bonds. Lauren Pollock (one of the twins' granddaughters) recounts the emotional toll:

Lauren Pollock [15:17]: "But I do know from speaking to my uncles and aunties that she was very loving, very patient..."

Attempts by producer Poppy Damon to locate Jennifer Pollock reveal the widespread dispersal of the family, making connections increasingly difficult. The discovery of Jillian Pollock's grave and the revelation of other family members' deaths add layers of sorrow and mystery to the overarching narrative.

Conclusion and Cliffhanger

The episode culminates with Dr. Stevenson preparing for another pivotal visit to the Pollock family in Bridlington, 1982. Despite personal and professional setbacks, Stevenson remains steadfast in his quest for understanding reincarnation. The final moments hint at unresolved tensions and forthcoming revelations, leaving listeners eager for the next installment.

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Notable Quotes

• Michael Chaplin [01:49]: "There was certainly not two normal grieving parents."

• Dr. Ian Stevenson [09:17]: "Reincarnation, Will you live again."

• June Field [20:33]: "I feel that you can actually decide whether you want to come back."

• Lauren Pollock [15:17]: "But I do know from speaking to my uncles and aunties that she was very loving, very patient..."

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Key Takeaways

• Reincarnation Explored: The episode intricately examines the concept of reincarnation from both scientific and spiritual perspectives, highlighting the difficulty in bridging belief and empirical evidence.

• Impact of Media: Sensationalist media coverage significantly affects the credibility of serious scientific research, as seen with Dr. Stevenson’s experience with the National Enquirer.

• Family Dynamics: Tragic events and personal choices lead to the fragmentation of the Pollock family, complicating efforts to uncover deeper truths about their past and possible reincarnations.

• Perseverance in Research: Despite facing professional ostracization and personal loss, Dr. Stevenson’s unwavering dedication to his research underscores the challenges faced by trailblazers in controversial fields.

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Credits

Extrasensory is produced by Blanchard House, with Will Sharp as the host. The episode features a talented cast including:

• John Pollock: Peter Peverly
• Florence Pollock: Jasmine Hyde
• Dr. Ian Stevenson: Mark Arnold
• The Pollock Children: Francisco and Edie Pimbola, Stevie Pye

Production Team:

• Producers: Poppy Damon, Seren Jones
• Writer: Lawrence Grisel
• Music: Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank, Manel, Toby Matimong
• Sound Design & Engineering: Vulcan Kizzeltug, Daniel Lloyd Evans, Toby Matamong
• Research: Alan Sargent
• Fact-Checking: Jesse Baring, Karen Walton
• Managing Producer: Amica Shortino Nolan
• Creative Director: Rosie Pye
• Executive Producer & Head of Content: Lawrence Grisel

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Extrasensory continues to unravel the mysteries of the Pollock family, blending true story elements with compelling storytelling. Follow and listen to the series on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

[Will Sharp]

Saint Mary's Walk, Scarborough, Autumn 1978. Everyone on the street comes out to look on the side of the trucks. In multicolored lettering it says London Weekend Television, one of Britain's biggest TV companies. John's inside the house adjusting his cravat. Florence is spraying her hair. The twins are now 21 and the family have moved here a while ago to another seaside town. Guys go in and out of the vans carrying endless bits of kit, cans of film, lenses, lighting rigs, cables, boom poles. There are still only three TV channels in the uk, so this is a massive deal. And the show will air on a Sunday night, which means a huge audience. The producer is a young guy in his 20s called Michael Chaplin. He's new to the job and wants to make his name with a big scoop. And he's got one. The first ever TV interview with the Pollocks. Michael hears about the story from his wife's family. They're from Hexham and still talk about that terrible crash that killed Jacqueline and Joanna.

[Michael Chaplin]

You know, it was a big event and her feelings about it were still quite raw. And they all said, you know, what a terrible thing it was, you know, its ripples continued to spread outwards as far as the 70s.

[Will Sharp]

The crew set up in the living room. First, a set piece interview with John and Florence in front of the bright white lights. They're still using old fashioned film and as soon as the camera starts rolling, something strikes Michael straight away. Something very surprising.

[Michael Chaplin]

There was certainly not two normal grieving parents.

[Will Sharp]

This is kind of strange, Michael thinks, given the sense of loss still felt in Hexam. John and Florence's attitude just seems unusual.

[Michael Chaplin]

They were at peace is one way of putting it. They weren't suffering, it seemed to me, because of their belief that the twins were indeed reincarnated. They were at peace, really. They really were.

[Will Sharp]

So John and Florence tell their story, they go through all the evidence and then the crew relocate to the girls bedroom. They reload the camera and they start filming. And there's one shot that Michael knows he has to get. He steels himself, turns to Jennifer and asks the question. Jennifer looks at her dad in the corner of the room and John nods. She takes a deep breath and lifts the bottom of her blouse. The camera zooms in.

[Michael Chaplin]

The birthmark. There it was for all to see.

[Will Sharp]

The birthmark. So Michael's got his shot. This is going great, he thinks. But then as he starts the interview, suddenly it's a very different story. The twins are sort of clamming up. There's something Off. Michael can't quite work out what it is, but he senses that they find this whole reincarnation thing troubling.

[Michael Chaplin]

I kind of took the view that it must have been pretty difficult for them to come to terms with and relate to.

[Will Sharp]

There's something the twins aren't saying, but Michael can't get them to share what it is. In fact, he's finding it hard to get them to talk at all.

[Michael Chaplin]

You could tell that underneath there was quite a lot going on, but they didn't talk about it. Obviously, they were conflicted. They didn't want to say anything that would offend or hurt their mum and dad.

[Will Sharp]

What is it that they're holding back? What is it the twins aren't saying? What is it that they're so afraid of? Now, at this point in the show, I'm sure you're thinking, well, why don't we just find the twins and ask them? After all, we're talking to Lauren Pollock, right? John's granddaughter. Well, we will get there. But it's not as easy as it sounds. Because the truth is, that TV interview with Michael is one of the last times that John, Florence and the twins will all be together. Something is about to happen. Something that will tear their family apart. This is Extra Sensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. I'm Will Sharp. Episode 4 Dead Reckoning 11 years earlier, New York City. A 62 year old man is walking down 57th Street. He's just outside the festival movie theater when he feels a sharp pain in his chest. A pain which spreads to his left arm. Within seconds, he's collapsed on the sidewalk. Now, some reports have him collapsing inside the theater while watching a movie. Who knows? Anyway, it makes no difference. A cop calls for an ambulance, but it's too late. Chester Carlson, inventor of the photocopier, is dead. An hour OR so later, Dr. Ian Stevenson is in his office.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Stevenson. Oh my goodness.

[Will Sharp]

It's bad news about his good friend, Chester Coulson.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Oh, dear.

[Will Sharp]

So Stevenson is upset, but it's bad news on another level too, because guess who's been paying for Stevenson's research lately? Yes, his multimillionaire friend, Chester Coulson.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

Chester Carlson made a fortune, but he was incredibly humble and almost embarrassed by these newfound riches. He wanted to give it all away.

[Will Sharp]

Professor Jesse Baring is from the University of Otago in New Zealand.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

He was looking to give it to somebody who could actually answer the big philosophical question, what happens after we die?

[Will Sharp]

Well, Carlson knows now, I guess, but for Stevenson, it means the end of the road for his reincarnation research. No more trips to see the Pollocks. No more trips anywhere. Back to his old life as a shrink and an overworked college bureaucratic. Until a few weeks later. University of Virginia, how may I direct your call?

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Dr. Stevenson?

[Will Sharp]

It's an attorney.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Stevenson.

[Will Sharp]

Chester Carlson's attorney. He's dealing with the inventor's will and Carlson has left Stephenson a bequest.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Oh.

[Will Sharp]

The attorney pauses and tells him the figure. Stevenson nearly drops the phone.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

That's extraordinarily generous.

[Will Sharp]

A million dollars. That's 10 million in today's money.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Thank you. Goodbye.

[Will Sharp]

So Stevenson's back in business. He won't need to worry about money for a very long time. He can return to the Pollacks as often as he likes. And he does. But the cash doesn't actually buy what Stephenson really wants. In fact, quite the opposite. His enemies at the University of Virginia would kill for this sort of cash. So they start to get resentful. The trash talk intensifies. The sniggering takes on an even harder edge. The respect Stephenson's always craved proves more elusive than ever. And not just because of the million bucks. Something else has happened too. Stephenson is at home when he gets a call. Jesse Berry.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

I can't substantiate this. This is just my understanding of what happened, but apparently he was contacted by a journalist who was purportedly attached to a reputable London newspaper.

[Will Sharp]

Stephenson meets the reporter in a hotel in Manhattan. And if the story's correct, he thinks this guy is a heavyweight serious journal. So Stevenson starts talking, gives this guy the lowdown on his reincarnation research. The interview ends, the two men go their separate ways, and then the story is published. Except it's not published in a reputable London newspaper. No. Stevenson is in for a bit of a surprise.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

He didn't realize, in fact, that the so called journalist was attached to and working for the National Enquirer.

[Will Sharp]

The National Enquirer, A super sensational tabloid that loves UFOs and aliens. And now a photo of Stephenson peers out from every newsstand and supermarket checkout in America on the front cover of a trashy magazine. The headline, and this part we know, is absolutely true because we've seen it.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Reincarnation, Will you live again.

[Will Sharp]

And here's the bit that must have really made his heart sink.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Dr. Ian Stevenson, a department chairman at the University of Virginia's medical school, gives evidence that the answer is.

[Will Sharp]

And in enormous letters that fill a third of the front cover. Yes, the article even features a call out.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Dr. Ian Stevenson would welcome hearing from Enquirer readers who have memories of having lived before. He promises to treat them seriously and sympathetically.

[Will Sharp]

Now, let's face it, for a man who wants to be taken seriously, appearing on the front cover of the National Enquirer is not a good look. But the truth is, whether he likes it or not, the wider public loves his work.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

I think he always had tremendous popular support in terms of the general audience that heard of his research.

[Will Sharp]

It's just a shame that it's not the public he's trying to win over.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

People are quite sympathetic to the idea that we survived death. Obviously, that wasn't the community of people that he wanted to impress. He wanted to speak directly to his scientific peers about what he saw as the reality, specifically reincarnation, that he had a lot of trouble doing.

[Will Sharp]

Then there's one other bit of bad luck. Remember Banerjee? The guy who was Stevenson's translator in India and then faced allegations of fraud, allegations he denied. Well, Banerjee has taken a trip to England to meet the Pollocks and it's got a spread in the Daily Mirror, the UK's best selling tabloid newspaper. And frankly, Banerji comes across as well. I'll let you decide. This is a direct quote. American and Russian scientists are interested in my work, which is the investigation of telepathy because they believe telepathy may solve the problem of space communication over millions of light years. Eventually, my computer back in India will come up with something startling, I am sure. Banerjee's visit to the twins is reported as far away as Australia, where it gets a massive write up in the Sydney Morning Herald. I mean, Stevenson must be mortified. His big case has been hijacked by. By someone who's been at the center of a storm of controversy. But just when you think the story can't get any more weird, US presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy, JFK's brother, is assassinated. The assassin claims he was under the influence of mind control and asks to be psychoanalyzed by Dr. Himendra Banerjee. And it seems Banerjee actually does it. So now even the Kennedys have become part of the John Pollock story. But okay, the 60s turn into the 70s, and here's where our story becomes a bit of a mystery. We know that Stevenson keeps visiting the Pollocks, but he doesn't publish anything about them. And why not? I mean, we know it's his favourite case. Well, perhaps he's waiting for the fuss about Banerjee to die down. That would make sense, right? Stevenson's a shrewd guy. So he's biding his time, waiting for everyone to forget about Banerjee so he can reclaim the Pollock case as his own. January 1979, Scarborough. And what a morning. The mist is rolling in off the sea. The waves are crashing on the shore and it's bitterly cold. The clouds are dark, dark gray, about as menacing as it gets. The big TV documentary has just been broadcast across the UK and there's been press coverage too. So John, Florence and the twins are getting recognized in the street. The Pollock story is big. John and Florence are running in antique bookshop these days. Well, Florence is. John isn't really working because of his back trouble. Anyway, Florence has got a rare day off. It's just before 10am and she's left the house. First she pops into the sweet shop, then she goes to the hairdressers. But while she's there, something terrible happens. She has a heart attack and she dies there. And then, just like that, she's 57 years old. First Chester Coulson, the photocopier, Guy Stevenson's backer. And now Florence Pollock. Two heart attacks that change everything. What are the gods trying to tell us?

[Michael Chaplin]

We will not all sleep, but we.

[Will Sharp]

Will all be changed. Just over a week later, it's an equally bleak day. Florence's funeral is held at St. Mary's Church, just seconds away from the family home. The church stands high above the bay, looking down over the angry North Sea. Leading the mourners, of course, are John Pollock, the twins and their four brothers. Crowds of people show up to pay their respects. Florence Pollock is loved and missed. Lauren is Florence's granddaughter, but sadly, they never met.

[Lauren Pollock]

But I do know from speaking to my uncles and aunties that she was very loving, very patient. She worked really hard and just having a lot of kids in the house, you know, she probably had to be quite upbeat and have lots of energy. And so I've got a lot of respect for her. I wish I knew more about her and I wish I could ask my dad all these questions, but I can't.

[Will Sharp]

And, well, you know what's coming next. I have to ask the question. So Florence's body has perished. That much we know for sure. But is she really gone? I mean, John would surely say no, right? This funeral is just kind of theater, a spectacle, because Florence is still alive. Her spirit, her consciousness, her soul is still out there somewhere. And if she is, I wonder if she finds out what happens next. And I wonder what she makes of it, because John is about to do something kind of surprising. Welcome aboard this Trans World Airlines flight.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Our flying time to London Heathrow is seven hours.

[Will Sharp]

April 1982. Stevenson's boarding another plane to see the Pollux. He's now 64, and he thinks he deserves a little comfort in his life. So he started turning left. Yes, our professor is now flying first class. Not too shabby. And why not? He's got Chester Coulson's million dollars to spend. Jesse Baring is writing a biography called the incredible afterlives of Dr. Stephenson.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

He was unique in having unlimited funding to, you know, pursue these investigations in these far flung places all over the world, really, with no strings attached whatsoever.

[Will Sharp]

Stephenson settles into the soft, wide seat. The flight attendant offers him a glass of champagne, which he gladly accepts. These days, Stephenson is here, there and everywhere, traveling 55,000 miles a year.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

I mean, it really was a sort of breathless journey across the earth. He was making these frequent treks to India and Sri Lanka, but also Alaska.

[Will Sharp]

Brazil, Argentina, interviewing one person after another after another who believes that they are reincarnated. Yeah, Stephenson is really racking up the air miles.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, Africa and the Philippines. And most of these were, you know, return visits.

[Will Sharp]

What a life.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

He would go back quite often over the years to follow up with the cases.

[Will Sharp]

But as Stephenson heads to London Heathrow, let's just leave him enjoying his bubbly for a moment, because there's one thing that I would say we've sort of been taking a little bit for granted, and that is what, or should that be, who decides if Florence Pollock, or indeed Jacqueline and Joanna Pollock are reincarnated at all? So I guess the question is, well, how does reincarnation even work?

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

It's like a dream.

[Will Sharp]

A dream. Ravi Vaidyanath is from the Hindu Temple Society of North America.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

We cannot forecast a dream or we cannot plan a dream, and we cannot program a dream.

[Will Sharp]

So Stevenson's really got his work cut out because, as Ravi says, how do you prove that someone's had a dream and it's all under the control of the supreme being? Florence, Chester, Jacqueline, Joanna. None of us have a say over where we go next.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

It is not my choice. It's the choice of the God.

[Will Sharp]

But here's the good news. We can sort of influence it by what we say and what we do. What Hindus call karma.

[Dr. Jeffrey Long]

You have the idea that it is our actions, in fact, that create our next life, and it is our desires that lead to our actions.

[Will Sharp]

Dr. Jeffrey Long specializes in the religions of India at Elizabethtown College.

[Dr. Jeffrey Long]

It's our Attachment to those fruits of action that propel us back into the cycle.

[Will Sharp]

But it's not quite as simple as that, because, of course, that's just one take on it.

[Dr. Jeffrey Long]

The ancient Celts believed in some version of rebirth. There were ancient Greeks who believed in it. There are Native American stories about rebirth. The Druze, they're prominent in Lebanon. They believe in reincarnation. Hasidic Jews believing in reincarnation.

[Will Sharp]

So I think it's fair to say that this all gets pretty slippery pretty fast.

[Dr. Jeffrey Long]

Like, I'm calling all of these beliefs in reincarnation because there's that sort of shared feature of someone, something coming back in another form. But is it even the same thing?

[Will Sharp]

Right. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it's complicated. But here is June Field's take on it. She's a psychic to the stars and the royals. Apparently, she also has a rather spooky cat.

[June Field]

I feel that you can actually decide whether you want to come back.

[Will Sharp]

So maybe we do have some control after all.

[June Field]

My perception of it, past lives and reincarnation, is to do with people that want to come back to learn other lessons, or maybe their life's been cut short in a way that they didn't get to finish what they were doing, and so they go on a mission to actually reincarnate, to carry that on.

[Will Sharp]

But it's possible that things are far more complex than that. We can incarnate in all different forms of life. Sean Collins is an online medium. We don't just incarnate on this planet. We don't just incarnate as humans. We can incarnate in anything that has a beginning and an end to it. Sean's waitlist for a consultation, by the way, is two years long. Our soul has ventured into all different places that you could ever possibly imagine. We don't just come into this one type of existence. And that's pretty much what Lauren Pollock believes.

[Lauren Pollock]

I believe some people live on as spirits. I believe some people go into the trees and birds and leaves and, yeah, some people were reincarnated.

[Will Sharp]

But there is at least one thing everyone can agree on.

[June Field]

Maybe this is not the end. Definitely not the end.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be landing in London's Heathrow Airport shortly.

[Will Sharp]

And here's something else worth thinking about as Stephenson prepares to arrive in England. I mean, he's a man of science, right? He's doing interviews and experiments to find evidence for reincarnation. But as we've just heard, for most people who believe in reincarnation, it's Just that, a belief. People believe in it, they just do. Whether Stevenson proves it or not makes no difference. They don't need evidence. For them, reincarnation is real. So people of faith don't need Stevenson and people of science don't accept him. But all of the criticism, the trash talk, the backbiting, it isn't putting him off? Not at all. You gotta love him. Stevenson's a tryer.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

He saw himself, I think, as this Galileo type figure. I do think that he saw himself as somebody who was persevering in the face of tremendous antagonism.

[Will Sharp]

So Stevenson's back in England to see the Pollocks. It's 1982, Bridlington. Another year, another seaside town. But John's got a big surprise for our professor. He's got a new wife, a new house, a new family. In fact, he got remarried about a year after Florence died.

[John Pollock]

It's very good to see you again, Ian.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

A lot's changed, I see, John.

[John Pollock]

Yes, you could say that. And it sounds like you've been keeping busy.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Certainly am.

[John Pollock]

Well, I do have something to share with you, actually, Ian. Something that happened last year.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Yes, you mentioned something in your letter. Please.

[John Pollock]

It's about Jillian. I mean, you recall that neither of the twins have been able to remember anything of their past lives since they were little?

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Yes, which is actually very normal. I hear that everywhere I go. It's only really small children who remember their past lives. Past the age of seven or eight, they remember very little.

[John Pollock]

But Jillian told me something just last year. I mean. I mean, it really was quite remarkable. It really was.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

I'm intrigued.

[Will Sharp]

Gillian describes a memory of her childhood. She's a little girl playing in a sandpit. Her blonde hair is braided in two perfect plaits. She's clutching at the lumps of sand, but it just keeps slipping through her little fingers. Her toys are strewn about the sandpit. Now she has a broader view. It's a gorgeous summer's day. Dappled sunlight shimmers across the sandpit through the leaves of huge mature oak trees. She notices that the sandpit is set in a large lawn. Lush green grass mowed to perfection. And beyond, an orchard. Now Gillian's staring up at her house. A large, detached red brick house that towers over her wisteria, weaves and wraps itself around the old bricks. And this feeling, this vision feels so familiar to Gillian, so real, so right. A precious childhood memory.

[John Pollock]

But that's just it, you see.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Go on, go on.

[John Pollock]

The house she described. The sand pit, the lawn, the orchard that House is called Wickham, and Jillian never lived in that house. We lived at Wickham when Joanna was alive, when she was very young, actually. Little Joanna who died.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

Had Gillian seen photographs of the house, maybe?

[John Pollock]

Nope, we don't have any. None at all.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

I see.

[John Pollock]

I mean, the description was so clear, so vivid, so detailed. How could she have known, Ian? How could she have known?

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

You tell me, John. You tell me. That is remarkable, really.

[John Pollock]

I'm telling you, Ian, it was a past life. Her past life.

[Will Sharp]

Now, clearly, it would be great to talk to Gillian herself about that vision, but there's a problem, and it's quite a big one. Obviously, producer Poppy has been trying very hard to track the twins down. In the early stages of research, we had absolutely no leads because the twins have virtually zero social media presence. So, of course, Poppy heads up to Hexham and starts in the most obvious place, the church where Jacqueline and Joanna are buried. So I wonder if anyone's around.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

I could ask.

[Will Sharp]

I cannot see anybody. That's local historian Derek Sim, who's there with his wife Linda, helping Poppy find the Pollock family plot.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

It may just be a little bit further, because 55, 43, 55.

[Lauren Pollock]

When did she die? Can you remember?

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

57. So she was dead before I was alive, so it must be further on.

[Lauren Pollock]

58, 56.

[Dr. Ian Stevenson]

There it is.

[Will Sharp]

And there it is, the headstone. And suddenly, all the sadness of this story becomes very real. It's pretty devastating to see an exquisite carved marble angel with its wings spread out, looking down into the earth. Next to it, a marble block to hold the flowers. And etched onto each side of it, the names Joanna, Mary and Jacqueline Teresa. Devastating. But then Poppy notices something else. On the other side of the headstone, facing the plot behind, there's a plaque. And on that plaque, some more names. They're Pollocks, too. And there's one name in particular with the dates 4th of October 1958 to 10th of September, 2002. And the name next to those dates is Gillian. Gillian Pollock. One of the Pollock twins has gone. She died at the age of just 43, which means, of course, only Jennifer is alive, or we assume she's alive, we just can't find her. But the gravestone proves to be a significant lead because there's another name on the gravestone, Sophie Pollock.

[Professor Jesse Baring]

And.

[Will Sharp]

And that name leads us directly to Lauren, who you've been hearing from, because Sophie is Lauren's sister. She died from cancer, tragically young, aged just 14. So much grief, so much sadness.

[Lauren Pollock]

So Sophie died in 2007. And my dad died in 2015 and then my mum died in 2022. But to be honest, it all just becomes a bit of a blur.

[Will Sharp]

Of course, Poppy wants to know whether Lauren can put us in touch with Jennifer. But there's a problem there, too.

[Lauren Pollock]

I haven't seen Jennifer since I was a kid, like 10, eight. Long time. Literally, if someone says to me, auntie Jennifer, my only vision of her is this long blonde hair. And that's. That's all I could tell you about her.

[Will Sharp]

So the Pollock family are not close, and there's a reason for that. Let's go back to 1982. John's chatting away to Stevenson, but there's one thing that he's probably not sharing, that his new life, his new wife, his new family has torn his old family apart, as Lauren says.

[Lauren Pollock]

I think finding out that once their mother had died, that the dad had moved on so quickly and remarried, yeah, it pulled the family apart. And I know it created a big rift.

[Will Sharp]

And it seems the boys, Ian and Keith, at least start to resent their dad. They sense that he's lost interest in them, that he doesn't care. And it's not just that. John has sold the house in Scarborough, leaving Florence's mother without a home. She'd lived with John, Florence and the kids for many years, so they're angry about that, too. The boys all go their separate ways, as do twins. The Pollock family just, well, scatters. And that's going to make Jennifer Pollock extremely hard to find. You've been listening to Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House and hosted by me, Will Sharp. Produced by Poppy Damon and Seren Jones. Extrasensory is written by Lawrence Grisel. Original music by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank, Manel and Toby Matimong. Sound design and engineering by Vulcan Kizzeltug, Daniel Lloyd Evans and Toby Matamong. The part of John Pollock was played by Peter Peverly, Florence Pollock by jasmine hyde and Dr. Ian stevenson by Mark Arnold. The Pollock children are played by Francisco and Edie Pimbola and Stevie Pye. Other parts by Jasmine Hyde, Mark Gillis, Ben Fox and Saul Boyer. Research by Alan Sargent. Fact checking by Jesse Baring and Karen Walton. Our managing producer is Amica Shortino Nolan. The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Grisel.