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- [00:00]
Will Sharp
The twins are looking straight at the camera. Gillian and Jennifer must be about, I don't know, seven or eight. But their faces somehow look older, much older. And there's something creepy about the image. Actually, it's really creepy. The twins look like they know something, a secret. Their eyes are dark, hooded, deeply shadowed. They're in identical outfits. Plain black dresses with vertical pleats down the front and a flat, broad white collar with stiff white cuffs. They wear identical white hairbands. It's all vaguely sort of religious, kind of like perhaps they belong to a cult. They're also standing side by side, very close, and their hands are touching, but they're not holding hands, which in itself is kind of weird. They're almost mirror images of each other. Almost, but not quite, because their expressions are different. The twin on the left looks serious, whereas the twin on the right has a hint of a smile, but no more than that. Looking at it, you're kind of thinking, what is it that they know? What is it they're concealing? And if I'm being honest, they do sort of look a little bit evil. Now, if you do a search for the Pollock twins, this creepy photo is the one that appears everywhere. Articles, blogs, videos, they all use this photo to illustrate the story of the crash, the birth of the twins, the birthmarks, and whether it all points towards reincarnation being real. So which one is Jennifer and which one is Gillian? Well, the answer to that is neither, because that photo is not the Pollock twins. In fact, it's got nothing to do with them. And want to know how we know? Well, we just asked Jennifer.
- [02:17]
Jennifer Pollock
God, that's not us. And I was like, no, that's not me and Jill. Not in a million years. I know that's not me and Jill.
- [02:24]
Will Sharp
Poppy's done it. She's got Jennifer. For the first time in 40 years, Jennifer Pollock has given an interview. This is Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. I'm Will shine shop episode 7 seeing is believing so let me tell you who the twins in that spooky photo really are. They're from nowhere near the north of England. Not even close. They're from New Jersey in the US Rozelle New Jersey, to be precise. And these twins are actually called Kathleen and Colleen Wade. The photo was taken in 1967 by the famous American photographer Diane Arbus. But let's be clear. The Wade twins have nothing whatsoever to do with reincarnation. Apparently, Diane Arbus just spots the Wade girls at a Christmas party for twins and thinks, well, okay, That'll make a great photo. End of story. Until the photo of Kathleen and Colleen enters the magical mystery machine of the Internet. The Internet does its thing. The photo somehow gets linked with the Pollock twins. I mean, maybe it's got something to do with those scary twins in the Kubrick movie of the Shining. And, well, people just think that's what the Pollock twins ought to look like. So, anyway, hey, presto. Kathleen and Colleen Waid become Jennifer and Gillian Pollock. However, there are some genuine photos of the Pollock twins on the Internet. And they're worth a look, too. Worth scrutinizing. One shows the twins aged eight, and they have matching blonde braids and these striking light blue eyes.
- [04:56]
Joanna Pollock
Now I've got to put my glasses on. Oh, my God, they were so much more identical then. Wow.
- [05:02]
Will Sharp
Joanna Pollock, John's granddaughter in later years.
- [05:07]
Joanna Pollock
I mean, their looks just went in totally different directions. So they're there in their matching outfits and their matching hairstyles. And I'm not sure who that doctor is. Who is he?
- [05:20]
Will Sharp
The doctor is Dr. Banerjee, the Indian academic who for a time kind of hijacks the Pollock case from Stephenson. He looks every inch the serious professor in super thick rimmed glasses. He's making notes, and an old school reel to reel tape recorder sits on the bed. Remember, Banerji starts off as Stevenson's translator, but then makes things a bit, well, stressful, because by the time of this photo, 1966, Banerji's already been accused of faking stuff.
- [05:50]
Joanna Pollock
And then at the back, there is a praying mantis.
- [05:54]
Will Sharp
She means John Pollock, who is leaning.
- [05:57]
Joanna Pollock
Against the door in his, you know, black suit, his tie, and his, yes, those are my daughters expression on his face. It's kind of like, how could you not believe me? Yes, I am a special person. Ugh.
- [06:18]
Will Sharp
And even though this is definitely the twins, it's not the twins as Joanna knew them.
- [06:23]
Joanna Pollock
Those are brand new coats and brand new shoes. And, yeah, they didn't look like that all the time. They're so clean. Yeah, that would have just been for the cameras.
- [06:36]
Will Sharp
I guess the truth can be like that, right? Even when you think you finally got at it, there are always more questions that need asking. Then another photo that sparks a memory for Joanna. In this one, the twins are seven, and they're sitting on a box holding a little black dog. Both of them are looking away from the camera. Their attention is directed to something out of frame.
- [07:02]
Joanna Pollock
Oh, good God. I think that could have been the playroom.
- [07:07]
Jennifer Pollock
Oh, really?
- [07:07]
Joanna Pollock
Where is. Is this Whitley Bay? Yeah, that's the playroom.
- [07:11]
Will Sharp
Joanna would have been four when this photo was taken.
- [07:14]
Joanna Pollock
In that playroom, there was a doll's house, and I'd always been in love with it, and the twins really didn't care about it.
- [07:26]
Will Sharp
But Joanna spends all of her time playing with it. It's the real deal. A proper big doll's house with a red roof and bay windows and a chimney on each side. It even has electric lights and a garden.
- [07:38]
Joanna Pollock
It's the one thing that I loved about that house and being in that playroom.
- [07:44]
Will Sharp
And guess who has that doll's house today. Yep. Joanna.
- [07:49]
Joanna Pollock
It's Tudor style. The front two portions open so you can see the staircase. And he would have got it from a sale room auction house.
- [08:00]
Will Sharp
By he, she means John. Anyway, the doll's house doesn't really mean much to the twins. So at some point when they're grown up, Joanna gets it. And Joanna takes it with her on her life's journey from place to place, all the way to California. The doll's house is always there. But then something happens. Joanna has a house fire.
- [08:22]
Joanna Pollock
And when the house caught on fire, it was just like, oh, God, the doll's house.
- [08:28]
Will Sharp
The doll's house survives, but it's a close call. And it's now a shadow of its former self, blackened and charred.
- [08:36]
Joanna Pollock
It's the metaphor for my life. Look at it. It's all, like, smoke damaged.
- [08:41]
Will Sharp
And now Joanna wants to restore it.
- [08:44]
Joanna Pollock
I just wanted to be perfect again. I want to make it so perfect and so happy, and, you know, I want the garden back, and I want the lights on, and I will go in there and live. Oh, that's so Freudian. Oh, my God.
- [09:00]
Will Sharp
Well, let you do your own thing with a symbolism of all that. But then Joanna remembers something else about John Pollock.
- [09:08]
Joanna Pollock
Oh, God, this is gonna sound so terrible. I asked him if I could have it once. I said, when you die, granddad, can I have the doll's house? And that was my payment. Of course you can, Joanna.
- [09:28]
Will Sharp
Payment. Okay, we'll come back to that. Now, Joanna shared quite a bit with us. There's a lot to process. Plenty of new information about John. So what does Lauren make of it all? Remember, Lauren is one of John's granddaughters, but unlike Joanna and Lisa, she never actually knew him. And the whole reincarnation thing is a family secret.
- [09:54]
Lauren Pollock
We've just never spoken about it as a family. I've never spoken to Lisa. Like, no one.
- [09:58]
Will Sharp
And Lauren's dad, Keith, never talked about his father, John.
- [10:02]
Lauren Pollock
I didn't hear bad Things. My dad would never say a bad word against him in front of us. He never spoke about him.
- [10:08]
Will Sharp
So we told Lauren what Joanna and Lisa had told us, that John was bullying and coercive and physically violent.
- [10:17]
Lauren Pollock
God, man, he sounds like a horrible, horrible man. And I feel really sorry for my dad and his siblings that they grew up in that house. And Florence as well. Yeah. To have this tyrant just walking in and controlling the atmosphere. And I think knowing that about him also makes me reflect and look at how my dad brought us up. And I think he was the total opposite, probably because of what he saw in his dad.
- [10:45]
Will Sharp
And Lauren is mad that John was never stopped, never held accountable.
- [10:50]
Lauren Pollock
It makes me angry that he got away with it for many years, because he did. You know, no one probably stood up to him, and then the boys just kind of cut ties with him. But I think, yeah, it makes me angry that he got away with it for all those years. You can't treat people like that.
- [11:10]
Will Sharp
1997. Stephenson's now 79, but he's still at his desk trying to prove his doubters wrong. He's hammering out the last few pages of his new book. And of course, he doesn't know any of that stuff about John Pollock, or at least we don't think he does. And by now, John is long gone. It's been 12 years since his death. Reincarnation and Biology. A short title for a big book. And Stevenson clearly sees this one as his legacy to the world, his last great work, 40 years in the making. And it is humongous. So humongous, in fact, that it's actually two books, two volumes, which run to a mighty 2,268 pages, I think it's fair to say. Not really holiday reading, but there is a crucial chapter on twins, which Stevenson says may be one of the most important of all my publications. And of course, he writes all about the Pollock twins, his most detailed analysis yet. And he goes through all of the stuff we know. The dolls, the visit to Hexham when the twins identified their dead sister's school, the phobia of cars, and so on and so on. Now, based on what Lisa and Joanna have told us, a lot of that can be explained away. Almost all of it comes from John, after all. And according to Lisa and Joanna, John Pollock is not a reliable witness. Far from it. They say he's a liar, a publicity seeker, a narcissist. And our other main witness, John's wife, Florence, is not reliable either, for very different reasons. According to his granddaughters John is controlling and coercive and violent. So Florence has no choice but to go along with John's lies. Remember, Joanna told us that Florence said privately the whole reincarnation story was, quote, bullshit. Then, of course, there's the twins themselves. Well, as Lisa and Joanna say, it could just be that they were coached by John, told what to say. But there is a problem. There's one thing that can't so easily be dismissed as a lie. The first volume of Stevenson's book is all about birthmarks. And here's what he says. Birthmarks and birth defects provide an objective type of evidence well above that, which depends on the fallible memories of informants. So here's the problem with just writing the whole Pollock story off as John's big lie. Jennifer's birthmark, Specifically the one on her face. Because remember, Stevenson sees a photo of Jacqueline's scar, and then he sees Jennifer's birthmark in exactly the same place. It's the one piece of evidence which is much, much harder to just dismiss. So, okay, that leaves us with a few possibilities. One, John faked that photo of Jacqueline. Two, it's sheer coincidence that Jennifer's birthmark matches Jacqueline's scar. Or three, well, here's what Stephenson says. The birthmarks and birth defects in these cases do not lend themselves easily to explanations other than reincarnation. Yeah, it's real. Reincarnation is real. A deceased personality having survived death may influence the form of a later born baby. But there is a fourth possibility, and it's one that we've also got to consider. And that possibility as well. Okay, I'm just gonna come out and say it. The other possibility is this. Stephenson is also making stuff up that one way or another, Stephenson is sort of complicit in John's deception. That Stephenson is part of John's big lie. Well, I think we should just test that theory, don't you? Charlottesville, Virginia, 1990. Stephenson's got a new doubles partner, and it's one set. All props to Stevenson. Right? I mean, he's nearly 80. But to be fair, this match isn't really about the tennis. His new partner is a journalist who's trying to convince Stevenson to take him on one of his overseas trips. The journalist is a guy called Tom Schroeder, an editor at the Miami Herald. And he's actually been trying to sweet talk Stephenson for two years.
- [16:09]
Tom Schroeder
The first thing he said when he heard what I wanted was, I'm interviewed out.
- [16:14]
Will Sharp
But Tom is not taking no for an answer. You see, he's Looked into the whole field of reincarnation research before and let's just say he's not impressed. So he wants to see if Stephenson is just another crank or if he's the real deal. But Stephenson is very resistant.
- [16:34]
Tom Schroeder
He really did not want to have popular attention because his only concern was getting mainstream scientists to take him seriously.
- [16:47]
Will Sharp
And there's another issue. Stevenson might still be a mean tennis player, but he's not sure about taking any more trips. He's nearly 80 and his wife, he's remarried, wants him to call it a day to retire. But Tom continues applying the pressure.
- [17:03]
Tom Schroeder
I also pointed out to him that if he'd spent 30 years being really cautious about letting any journalists sort of report on his work, where had that gotten him? Which was nowhere. I mean, you know, it hadn't persuaded his scientific colleagues to take him seriously. So I said, you really don't have anything to lose.
- [17:28]
Will Sharp
So, long story short, it does the trick. Two last trips. Stephenson says, come with me. Game, set and match. So the next time the two men meet, it's in Paris for a flight to Lebanon, home to a large Druze population. Reincarnation is a big part of the Druze faith. Stephenson is clutching a bulging briefcase with brass combination lock. And guess what?
- [18:00]
Tom Schroeder
He was in first class and I was in coach. But we, we met there and, you know, and I get on the plane and I'm thinking. My biggest thought was, what if he turns out to be a fraud?
- [18:17]
Will Sharp
So the two men arrive in Beirut, which is still recovering from 15 years of civil war. In fact, it's still pretty dangerous.
- [18:25]
Tom Schroeder
People were living in sort of bombed out buildings, stringing electrical lines from the street up into their windows, which had no glass.
- [18:35]
Will Sharp
So Tom is kind of wondering whether this might all be a big mistake. Anyway, Tom and the professor hit the road and start work, meeting people who claim to have past lives. And things do start to get interesting pretty fast. They speak to a guy who says he was killed in a car crash at the age of 25. Then a girl with a phobia of knives who says she was murdered in a massacre. And in each case, the claims match a real person who died in exactly that way. Then they speak to a kid who says he was shot in the head in his past life. And yes, this kid has birthmarks, birthmarks similar to bullet wounds recorded in an autopsy report. For a guy who, you guessed it, died in a shooting just before the kid was born.
- [19:30]
Tom Schroeder
They didn't exactly match, but they were pretty darn close.
- [19:36]
Will Sharp
Birthmarks. Phobias Violent deaths. Sound familiar? And there is one case in particular that makes Tom sit up and take notice. A girl who claimed that in her previous life she'd been a mother who died during surgery. Now, the dead woman's family somehow connect with this kid and go to visit.
- [19:58]
Tom Schroeder
Her and the little girl, who's like six or seven at this point, when they come into the house, she calls them by name. And the first thing she says to them, she says, you're here.
- [20:11]
Will Sharp
Finally, Tom does identify some inconsistencies in these stories, but mostly he's kind of blown away by what he's hearing.
- [20:21]
Tom Schroeder
Really impressive. Now, if it was just one case like that, you'd say, well, I mean, whatever, it's weird. But there's not just one case. There are dozens and dozens of cases.
- [20:34]
Will Sharp
And it all convinces Tom that Stephenson is completely trustworthy. He's not a crackpot. And his case studies aren't crackpots either.
- [20:43]
Tom Schroeder
Right away, I saw his whole approach to things was very transparent, very scientific approach. The other possibility was that we'd go and these people would be obvious frauds. And that was definitely not the case.
- [20:58]
Will Sharp
So Tom does the trip to Lebanon, then he goes with Stevenson to India, and he writes it all up in a book which he calls Old Souls. And while Tom doesn't come away from it all a believer as such, he's certainly no longer such a skeptic.
- [21:15]
Tom Schroeder
You know, I can't explain away all these. What all these children and families have experienced. I think there's, on some level, there's something real there, and I don't know what it is or how it works, but I'm not willing to just dismiss it.
- [21:32]
Will Sharp
All things considered, we can say this much, it seems that if anybody is lying, it's not Stevenson. Poppy first writes to Jennifer Pollock on social media, but she gets nothing back. Complete silence. I mean, it doesn't really seem like Jennifer uses social media very much. Maybe she doesn't actually use it at all. At the same time, Poppy's trying to see if she can find a street address. It's hard to know where to start. Whitley Bay, Scarborough, Bridlington. Again, complete blank. Then, of course, Poppy finds Lauren via the names on that headstone in the graveyard in Hexham. Lauren, John's granddaughter. Then Lauren leads us to John's other granddaughters, Lisa and Joanna. Now, Lauren has no contact at all with Jennifer. Joanna doesn't either. No number, no email address, nothing. But Lisa does have a number, though she's not dialed it for quite some time. And Lisa Agrees to share that number with us. So, of course, Poppy sends a message. But again, nothing. Silence. Must be an old number. That's it. We're kind of out of options. Weeks go by, months go by. The team accepts that Jennifer just doesn't want to be found or certainly doesn't want to speak. And then on a Sunday night, 11pm Poppy gets a message on her phone. Four words. I'll text you tomorrow. It's from Jennifer. One of the first things that Poppy sees when she arrives at Jennifer's house is a framed painting of a Native American man in a headdress or war bonnet. It's a striking image. The painting was a gift from her brother Ian, Joanna's dad, which he bought on a trip to a Native American reservation.
- [23:46]
Jennifer Pollock
And he said, if you give this to somebody, it's a guardian angel and it'll take good care of you. And it's a beautiful picture. Is that.
- [23:54]
Will Sharp
Do you believe in angels?
- [23:56]
Jennifer Pollock
Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. I think angels around you all the time, protecting you. Yeah, if you ask me, dad, he'd say the same. You were angels around you, protecting your ear.
- [24:05]
Will Sharp
So we're finally here, meeting Jennifer Pollock, the surviving twin. The focus of all that attention, all that scrutiny. The subject of newspaper articles, TV documentaries, academic papers, the reason that Stevenson crossed the Atlantic half a dozen times. His favorite case study. And Jennifer is talking about it all for the first time in 40 years. Now, you're probably thinking, what about that birthmark? Well, Poppy can't see a mark on Jennifer's forehead, But it's like she can't get too close straight away. I mean, they have only just met, and there is a lot of ground to cover. Jennifer is 66 now. She's still unmistakably the person from those old photos of her and Jillian as children. The genuine photos, that is, with long, fair hair and those same striking light blue eyes. She lives with her husband Steve, in the northwest of England. The house is small and modest. They're certainly not rich. And Jennifer spends a lot of time on her tablet, which she uses a magnifying glass to see. Steve, meanwhile, is into amateur radios. That's the kind of thing you can listen to unusual broadcasts on, like, NASA, that kind of thing. Jennifer and Steve have been together for 28 years now, and they get along really well.
- [25:25]
Steve Pollock
Just tolerance given tech, you know, getting used to each other, really. You know, she likes one thing, I like another. So we try and, you know, I like my computer.
- [25:34]
Jennifer Pollock
He likes his radios. I like my telly. He's Got his telly. So we're fine. Just our own things, don't we?
- [25:40]
Steve Pollock
I just learned to live together, basically. I'm either with radio or doing a couple of odds and stuff.
- [25:47]
Jennifer Pollock
I use my magnifying glass because my glasses are scratched and I can't wear them, so I need some new ones.
- [25:53]
Will Sharp
So Steve can't see too well either, but they're both good at looking on the bright side, man, you're.
- [25:58]
Steve Pollock
Between us, we've got 2020 vision. 1h.
- [26:02]
Will Sharp
It's a good joke, Steve. Steve and Jennifer met when they were in their mid-30s, on holiday. They were staying on a caravan site or RV park.
- [26:12]
Steve Pollock
She came to stay with her brother who had a caravan on park and we. We just met, I think I'd slept at shop for summer and I saw her go in at club and I thought, as you do, being a young fellow, I thought, I quite have a fancy at that. And we just hit it off right away and within, I think of four weeks or three weeks, I'd asked her to marry me.
- [26:34]
Jennifer Pollock
He asked me on the phone if I marry him.
- [26:36]
Steve Pollock
I thought, well, if she says no, I can always put phone down.
- [26:40]
Will Sharp
But there was no need to hang up. And here they are, all these years later. Steve and Jennifer's relationship feels warm and loving, very different to her mum and dad's relationship, according to Joanna's description. And that's the first thing that we want to ask Jennifer about this idea that there were two John Pollocks, that he was one man in public, the life and soul of the party, and another man at home. And that man, according to Lisa, ruled the house with a rod of iron. His brooding presence was felt even if the man himself was nowhere to be seen. Joanna said that John bullied Florence into submission, beat Florence into submission. Remember Joanna called him a hateful, pathetic little man. So we told Jennifer all this, everything Joanna and Lisa said about John, the John that they knew. But what Jennifer tells us about John, well, as soon as she starts speaking, it's not at all what we're expecting. What was your dad like?
- [27:44]
Jennifer Pollock
It's a great. He's a great. He's a good dad. He really. I mean, he had affairs with other women and things like that, but he's a good father to us, especially me and my twin sister, because the lads were a lot older than us, so we would like the babies, like come back into the family.
- [27:59]
Will Sharp
Did he kind of spoil you too?
- [28:01]
Jennifer Pollock
Yeah, he spoiled us too. Yeah, he did, yeah. We got more, treated more than what the boys ever did. He used to go camping up to Scotland he used to take us on the beach. I don't know he used to take us all over really when we were young in the car like have a drive out some for a picnic so.
- [28:18]
Will Sharp
This is all, well a bit of a surprise just a little bit different to the John that we've been hearing about. This John dotes on his princesses.
- [28:29]
Jennifer Pollock
My two princesses used scholars and he loved us dearly, used to take us out and he wasn't strict but you knew how far you could push them. But he was a really good dad.
- [28:39]
Will Sharp
He really was yeah, a really good dad. Jennifer remembers them all gathered together as a family watching TV kill my concern.
- [28:51]
Jennifer Pollock
My dad's neighbor, my mum's knee. I might want to sit on the lad's knees because there are. I mean we're only about five then six.
- [29:01]
Will Sharp
She remembers family Christmases they had.
- [29:05]
Jennifer Pollock
A beautiful piano and used to play at Christmas like Christmas Carlton we all used to sit down on the piano and sing songs At New Year we used to go out and a lot of friends and neighbours used to come round and like me when we slay big massive singing along on the piano which really, really good.
- [29:29]
Will Sharp
Then as they grow older there's late night chats in John's office where he plays old Mozart records and he used.
- [29:36]
Jennifer Pollock
To have a great big room with all books all around and used to have a nice big desk with a bureau. It's beautiful. And used to say come on in and, and talk to your dad before he goes. I said dad it's 12 o'clock, I've got to get to bed. Well half an hour wouldn't mean he should be at half past two before he used to get to bed to be up by 8 o'clock in the morning.
- [29:56]
Will Sharp
From everything Jennifer says John just loves the twins company.
- [30:02]
Jennifer Pollock
I used to say to me dad's me day off Dad I want to rest. He said no, you're coming out, come on, come on. Then on a nighttime you say which princess of mine is coming out with me tonight? That's me and my twin sisters calls princesses and I used to say dad, I can't be all come on out. He said come on, come with your dad and have a drink. And he used to say in the end you were like more or less forced to go out with him with a drink but it was funny, he really really was David tell jokes and.
- [30:26]
Will Sharp
He would chat to people. He was quite outgoing.
- [30:28]
Jennifer Pollock
Yeah, he was very, very outgoing. Yeah he was a lovable guy and.
- [30:33]
Will Sharp
Here is perhaps the biggest surprise of all. According to Jennifer, John's not just a lovable guy, but a guy who genuinely loves her mother, Florence.
- [30:45]
Jennifer Pollock
I used to go out with my mum and me and my dad, we go to Conservative Club and we used to have a good drink then just chatting away like daughters and parents doing your kids. And they seemed really, really happy. I've never seen my mum and dad ever argue or anything, really.
- [31:03]
Will Sharp
And according to Jennifer, this John would never resort to violence, but me and.
- [31:09]
Jennifer Pollock
My dad would never hit anybody like a woman or anything like that, or. He wasn't nasty that way.
- [31:13]
Will Sharp
You never saw him be violent?
- [31:15]
Jennifer Pollock
I never saw any physical abuse with my father whatsoever.
- [31:21]
Will Sharp
So that's the John Pollock that Jennifer knew, John the father. And, well, it kind of knocks us all sideways. It's a very different John to the one that Joanna and Lisa knew. John the grandfather. And in fact, it sort of feels like there are more even than just two Johns. There are many Johns, multiple and competing Johns. So what about the first John, the John? We started with John the Prophet, the man who predicted that his dead daughters would be reborn, who told the world they weren't dead at all, that they lived on in the bodies of his twins, Gillian and Jennifer, and maintain that story for the rest of his life. What does Jennifer say about that? John? You've been listening to Extrasensory, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House and hosted by me, Will Sharp. The producer is Poppy Damon. Extrasensory is written by Lawrence Grisel. Additional production by Seren Jones. Original music by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nank Manel and Toby Matimong. Sound design and mix engineering by Vulcan Kiseltug and Daniel Lloyd Evans. The part of John Pollock is played by Peter Peverly and Dr. Ian Stevenson by Mark Arnold. Research by Alan Sargent, fact checking by Jesse Bearing and Karen Walton. Our managing producer is Amica Shortino Nolan. The creative director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer and head of content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Grisel.